tyre wear on Cups

**shimmy** · 04-04-2009, 08:17 PM

ok, so over the last three years ive used Cups and had some initial issues with tyre wear to the outer edges of the front tyres

changed to adjustable camber plates last year and found tyre wear improved but that more likely then to have inner tyre wear problems due to the camber but at least it is manageable

now with intrax fitted i have noticed how even the tyre wear has become at the front. I guess it is due to the fact that as you stiffen the car the tyres roll less BUT interested to hear any thoughts on the matter

if this carries on i think over 2-3 years of track days the Intrax pays for itself with reduced tyre wear

**AlexGTT** · 05-04-2009, 12:17 AM

Good call Shimmy. I keep telling myself I don't need to spend the money. I like my standard suspension with adjustable top mounts but your now making me think again!

kbird · 24-05-2009, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimmy

ok, so over the last three years ive used Cups and had some initial issues with tyre wear to the outer edges of the front tyres

changed to adjustable camber plates last year and found tyre wear improved but that more likely then to have inner tyre wear problems due to the camber but at least it is manageable

now with intrax fitted i have noticed how even the tyre wear has become at the front. I guess it is due to the fact that as you stiffen the car the tyres roll less BUT interested to hear any thoughts on the matter

if this carries on i think over 2-3 years of track days the Intrax pays for itself with reduced tyre wear

I'm not so sure! I have Intrax/Cups and am suffering from massive wear on the inner edges of the fronts. I have the adjustable top mounts that allow the camber to be adjusted to -2.5 degrees for the track but yesterday a Lydden Hill I had to leave early as the more loaded nsr front tyre had delaminated due to wear on the inner edge and had the second layer of canvas showing over the first 30mm of the tyre. The tyres have done four track days, Rockingham, Combe X2 and Lydden yesterday. Is this level of wear what is expected? I would have thought the most wear would be on the loaded outer edge? The tyres are run at Michelins recommended hot pressures and -2.5 degrees is also in line with their recommendations, what do you think?

**shimmy** · 25-05-2009, 12:12 AM

feck me, where do i start! them Cups are big time shagged

if yer running -2.5 front camber on track (similar to me) then i am surprised by the amount of inner wear after 4 tds

i have no idea of the quality of tarmac at Lydden Hill but when i was at Llandow last year my cups got excessive wear due to the surface for sure

also looking at you tyres i would guess you overheat them (just a guess). even on Cups the CSL can overheat the tyres in 10-15 minutes on track and if you are running sessions longerthan that without letting them cool them thatcould be acontributory factor

last but not least i have no idea how the rest of you Geo is set up

Bealo · 25-05-2009, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimmy

feck me, where do i start! them Cups are big time shagged

if yer running -2.5 front camber on track (similar to me) then i am surprised by the amount of inner wear after 4 tds

i have no idea of the quality of tarmac at Lydden Hill but when i was at Llandow last year my cups got excessive wear due to the surface for sure

also looking at you tyres i would guess you overheat them (just a guess). even on Cups the CSL can overheat the tyres in 10-15 minutes on track and if you are running sessions longerthan that without letting them cool them thatcould be acontributory factor

last but not least i have no idea how the rest of you Geo is set up

I'll keep that at mind Shimmy regarding the time out on track.

Do you know the optimum running temp for the Cups???? I ask as i am going to fit one of the Tyresure tyre monitors. I'm looking forward to seeing how well it works.

**shimmy** · 25-05-2009, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bealo

I'll keep that at mind Shimmy regarding the time out on track.

Do you know the optimum running temp for the Cups???? I ask as i am going to fit one of the Tyresure tyre monitors. I'm looking forward to seeing how well it works.

no idea on optimum temp Bealo sorry

Curly has rained me in on track time and made me realise that staying out will cook the tyres if you are not careful. Mycups at the moment seem to go on and on and on

Those Mancs no all the tricks to save money

TANKSLAPPER · 25-05-2009, 02:21 PM

Everyone talks about camber angles as if this would improve wear,

This is not the case it allows you to corner faster on the basis of when you lean on the front wheel in a bend the suspension will deflect, but allows the wheel to remain upright. Thus allowing you to wear the tyres quicker as you are carrying more speed.

Toe in and out, this can give you more wear on the tyres, particularly when travelling in a straight line, which is about 90 percent of the cars life.
I understand in the case of the CSL when you run more camber this will automatically change the toe angle.

Toeing in gives more stability, but increases tyre wear. Toeing out gives less stability but quicker direction changes. Ideally a car should run parallel toe, but deformation in suspension under load usually results in toeing in the rear to retain stability under direction changes, and toeing out the front to allow direction changes to happen faster. Most road cars would run with toe-in at the front.

Kbird photo to me suggest you have too much toeing in on the front.

Jeff · 25-05-2009, 05:26 PM

The problem here is that everyone thinks they need 2.5 degrees etc because so an so over there swears by it. Let me explain. You only need 2.5 degrees if you are managing to corner hard enough to generate enough load to use it. Clearly in the above picture that tyre is not spending enough time on the outer edges because the drivers style is not pushing the tyre to require that level of camber. In this case the camber requirements for the driving style would probably be better at 2 deg max.

Load levels during cornering dictate your camber requirements so given the above picture I'd reduce camber, or load up more in cornering.

_Nathan_ · 25-05-2009, 08:03 PM

I'm with Jeff.

As well as driving styles there are also other factors;

If you run a harder spring rate and damping than someone who swears by 2.5 degrees then you may not get the same dynamic camber change and your tyre may not use the outside as much, likewise if you have a softer setup it may not be enough..

Only way is to take a reasonable starting point and then take temp readings off the inner, middle and outer tyre face too see how it is being used, make some changes and repeat until you have the correct temp spread.

s.mac · 25-05-2009, 09:47 PM

my front right is wearing quicker on the inside more than the others, I have been advised not to change my suspension but the guys who did my geometry set up said they couldn't get my front right any better, would adjustable top mounts solve this or do you think the readings are OK. Sorry don't mean to hijack the thread

04-04-2009, 08:17 PM	#1
shimmy CSL Register Uber-poster! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Uk Posts: 14,646 Casino cash: $43909	tyre wear on Cups ok, so over the last three years ive used Cups and had some initial issues with tyre wear to the outer edges of the front tyres changed to adjustable camber plates last year and found tyre wear improved but that more likely then to have inner tyre wear problems due to the camber but at least it is manageable now with intrax fitted i have noticed how even the tyre wear has become at the front. I guess it is due to the fact that as you stiffen the car the tyres roll less BUT interested to hear any thoughts on the matter if this carries on i think over 2-3 years of track days the Intrax pays for itself with reduced tyre wear

05-04-2009, 12:17 AM	#2
AlexGTT CSL Register Uber-poster! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Herefordshire Posts: 4,374 Casino cash: $8572	Good call Shimmy. I keep telling myself I don't need to spend the money. I like my standard suspension with adjustable top mounts but your now making me think again! __________________ CSL Register Alcoholics Anonymous Group Leader & Businessman of the Year '93! www.earleyengineering.com

25-05-2009, 02:21 PM	#7
TANKSLAPPER S5, Sport Off, DSC M-track Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 801 Casino cash: $8979	Everyone talks about camber angles as if this would improve wear, This is not the case it allows you to corner faster on the basis of when you lean on the front wheel in a bend the suspension will deflect, but allows the wheel to remain upright. Thus allowing you to wear the tyres quicker as you are carrying more speed. Toe in and out, this can give you more wear on the tyres, particularly when travelling in a straight line, which is about 90 percent of the cars life. I understand in the case of the CSL when you run more camber this will automatically change the toe angle. Toeing in gives more stability, but increases tyre wear. Toeing out gives less stability but quicker direction changes. Ideally a car should run parallel toe, but deformation in suspension under load usually results in toeing in the rear to retain stability under direction changes, and toeing out the front to allow direction changes to happen faster. Most road cars would run with toe-in at the front. Kbird photo to me suggest you have too much toeing in on the front. Last edited by TANKSLAPPER; 25-05-2009 at 02:25 PM.

25-05-2009, 12:12 AM	#4
shimmy CSL Register Uber-poster! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Uk Posts: 14,646 Casino cash: $43909	feck me, where do i start! them Cups are big time shagged if yer running -2.5 front camber on track (similar to me) then i am surprised by the amount of inner wear after 4 tds i have no idea of the quality of tarmac at Lydden Hill but when i was at Llandow last year my cups got excessive wear due to the surface for sure also looking at you tyres i would guess you overheat them (just a guess). even on Cups the CSL can overheat the tyres in 10-15 minutes on track and if you are running sessions longerthan that without letting them cool them thatcould be acontributory factor last but not least i have no idea how the rest of you Geo is set up

25-05-2009, 05:26 PM	#8
Jeff S4 - Getting the hang of it Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Southfields, London Posts: 121 Casino cash: $675	The problem here is that everyone thinks they need 2.5 degrees etc because so an so over there swears by it. Let me explain. You only need 2.5 degrees if you are managing to corner hard enough to generate enough load to use it. Clearly in the above picture that tyre is not spending enough time on the outer edges because the drivers style is not pushing the tyre to require that level of camber. In this case the camber requirements for the driving style would probably be better at 2 deg max. Load levels during cornering dictate your camber requirements so given the above picture I'd reduce camber, or load up more in cornering.

25-05-2009, 08:03 PM	#9
_Nathan_ Driving it like I nicked it Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,099 Casino cash: $13060	I'm with Jeff. As well as driving styles there are also other factors; If you run a harder spring rate and damping than someone who swears by 2.5 degrees then you may not get the same dynamic camber change and your tyre may not use the outside as much, likewise if you have a softer setup it may not be enough.. Only way is to take a reasonable starting point and then take temp readings off the inner, middle and outer tyre face too see how it is being used, make some changes and repeat until you have the correct temp spread.

25-05-2009, 09:47 PM	#10
s.mac CSL Register Uber-poster! Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 4,247 Casino cash: $15600	my front right is wearing quicker on the inside more than the others, I have been advised not to change my suspension but the guys who did my geometry set up said they couldn't get my front right any better, would adjustable top mounts solve this or do you think the readings are OK. Sorry don't mean to hijack the thread