Alcon brake kits

[SamT]

Just to throw my 2 pennyworth into this....I started out with the Alcon CSL Cup brakes on the white M3, but have now converted to AP Pro 5000 with PFC discs and Endless Race pads (the Alcon set up went on my blue CS Yesterday with RS29's)

The reason i switched is that I love the Endless pads, but unfortunately there isn't enough clearance to fit them in the Alcon Callipers as they come with 25mm of meat on, and from memory the Alcons only accept a 17mm Pad....so you end up machining off 8mm of pad material to get them to fit.....being a Yorkshireman this hurt like you wouldn't believe .....Plus Schirmer said i could do one if i didnt convert

The new set up is simply stunning on track, a significant improvement over the alcons with RS29's.....but conversley I agree wholeheartedly with what Lawsy said about the Alcons being alot better for the road. The initial bite from the AP's is brutal....and i mean brutal (so much so that even though I've done a couple of days at the ring on them, i am still all over the place with braking points, yes shimmy, part of my excuse for Monday at Bedford )

So, my advice would be, that if you use your car on the road fit the Alcons (they are 200% better than standard) but if your building an out and out track/race car then go with the AP/PFC/Endless setup....but be prepared to peel your eyebrows off the windscreen

BMWZ4MC ..... I'm in Rye on the Kent/Sussex border, if you wanna pop over and see/ try out both set ups your more than welcome

[Rick H]

Originally Posted by SamT

Just to throw my 2 pennyworth into this....I started out with the Alcon CSL Cup brakes on the white M3, but have now converted to AP Pro 5000 with PFC discs and Endless Race pads (the Alcon set up went on my blue CS Yesterday with RS29's)

The reason i switched is that I love the Endless pads, but unfortunately there isn't enough clearance to fit them in the Alcon Callipers as they come with 25mm of meat on, and from memory the Alcons only accept a 17mm Pad....so you end up machining off 8mm of pad material to get them to fit.....being a Yorkshireman this hurt like you wouldn't believe .....Plus Schirmer said i could do one if i didnt convert

The new set up is simply stunning on track, a significant improvement over the alcons with RS29's.....but conversley I agree wholeheartedly with what Lawsy said about the Alcons being alot better for the road. The initial bite from the AP's is brutal....and i mean brutal (so much so that even though I've done a couple of days at the ring on them, i am still all over the place with braking points, yes shimmy, part of my excuse for Monday at Bedford )

So, my advice would be, that if you use your car on the road fit the Alcons (they are 200% better than standard) but if your building an out and out track/race car then go with the AP/PFC/Endless setup....but be prepared to peel your eyebrows off the windscreen

BMWZ4MC ..... I'm in Rye on the Kent/Sussex border, if you wanna pop over and see/ try out both set ups your more than welcome

Hi, thanks for this - some good stuff to read there. RS29s - I think the guys with lots of experience on here rate them highly so its all good as far as pads go - so pads aside, what is it with the Alcons that puts them so far beneath the APs for track use?

I have Alcon Cups on and my issue with them is the bite point is low down thus lots of pedal travel - is this what makes them more suitable for road use?

The reason I ask is that a possible solution to shorten pedal travel is residual pressure values (thanks for the heads up on those Mr G!) - so if pedal travel is reduced and both are using RS29s, would the difference on track be as marked?

[shane@mbtech]

Originally Posted by Rick H

Hi, thanks for this - some good stuff to read there. RS29s - I think the guys with lots of experience on here rate them highly so its all good as far as pads go - so pads aside, what is it with the Alcons that puts them so far beneath the APs for track use?

I have Alcon Cups on and my issue with them is the bite point is low down thus lots of pedal travel - is this what makes them more suitable for road use?

The reason I ask is that a possible solution to shorten pedal travel is residual pressure values (thanks for the heads up on those Mr G!) - so if pedal travel is reduced and both are using RS29s, would the difference on track be as marked?

You can't compare ap5000 with Alcon kit.

Sam is rich. Schirmer likes a rich mofo. So Sam has the dogs danglies and I don't blame him. If I could afford them I would have them.

[Rick H]

Originally Posted by lawsy

You can't compare ap5000 with Alcon kit.

Sam is rich. Schirmer likes a rich mofo. So Sam has the dogs danglies and I don't blame him. If I could afford them I would have them.

True enough, but the question stands for "standard" APs

[shane@mbtech]

Originally Posted by Rick H

True enough, but the question stands for "standard" APs

Shimmy ran AP all round at Spa. I ran Alcon all round at Spa.
Same pace. Take from that what you will

[shane@mbtech]

The Alcon does have more pedal travel. But not enough to cause any issue at all.

I have a set of AP, K Sport, and Alcons all sat in my workshop. I'm fitting the Alcon. If they were that bad I wouldnt fit them.

For a road car that does a couple of trackdays they are 100% fine.

[Rick H]

Originally Posted by lawsy

The Alcon does have more pedal travel. But not enough to cause any issue at all.

I have a set of AP, K Sport, and Alcons all sat in my workshop. I'm fitting the Alcon. If they were that bad I wouldnt fit them.

For a road car that does a couple of trackdays they are 100% fine.

Yep, I'm not saying Alcons are bad by any stretch - its just I'm trying to understand why APs are favoured. If the pedal travel issue is removed from the equation with pre-load and everything else is like for like (lines/fluid/pads) - do APs and Alcons become effectively the same?

Pedal travel is a personal pref I guess, I would prefer to have shorter travel - other drivers will prefer longer travel.

[SamT]

Originally Posted by lawsy

You can't compare ap5000 with Alcon kit.

Sam is rich. Schirmer likes a rich mofo. So Sam has the dogs danglies and I don't blame him. If I could afford them I would have them.

Tell you what Lawsy, after meeting Tom I'm not that 'Rich' any more mate


Please don't misunderstand me here Rick.....The Alcon brakes are MINT (Hence they've gone on my CS) and with them on you can out brake most things on track (even in a heavy ole M3), and I was doing alot more than a couple of trackdays last year!

Yes, there is more travel with them, (but much less than standard) but like Lawsy says, that does not cause a problem, and you soon get used to it. Although, like you Rich, i prefer a higher pedal to stamp on .... but then, it was alot easier to Heel and Toe with the Alcons as the pedals were bang in line (not that you need to do that in a CSL)

I cant prove this, but I think in a Lab, with the same pads (and standard discs that come with kits) there probably ain't that much difference in them. Tom Schirmer has developed his own set up based on thousands of laps on hundreds of cars at the ring, and essentially only fits the best of the best stuff (the most expensive) and has lots of 'secret' tweaks that he does to bring the whole package together (don't forget, Brakes don't work in isolation of other systems i.e. Suspension and Geometry) and the cumulative effect of all this gives you confidence to brake later and harder.....but its not just the brakes that are doing it, if you get my drift.

I think the RS29's are £400 F+R and the endless pads are around €1400 F+R ...... so that gives you an idea of the differences in price to get that extra % in performance!

[octainejunkee]

I know this kit wont- but would it be possible to get a kit that fits the 1M?

Cheers Jamie

[nigt3]

Originally Posted by Rick H

Yep, I'm not saying Alcons are bad by any stretch - its just I'm trying to understand why APs are favoured. If the pedal travel issue is removed from the equation with pre-load and everything else is like for like (lines/fluid/pads) - do APs and Alcons become effectively the same?

Pedal travel is a personal pref I guess, I would prefer to have shorter travel - other drivers will prefer longer travel.

I went for Alcons, reason being the ap discs are't the best and could'nt be arsed spending more money buying performance friction discs!! Personally I think either or is pretty good