csl vs gts. Spa track day

[octainejunkee]

The owner of the GTS was a top guy and said he had owned the csl gtr built by simpsons in the past.

I improved my times loads towards the end of the day but figured this would be of most interest to you guys..

[shimmy]

Originally Posted by octainejunkee

The owner of the GTS was a top guy and said he had owned the csl gtr built by simpsons in the past.

I improved my times loads towards the end of the day but figured this would be of most interest to you guys..

Cheers Jamie

[cslsuperfan]

Originally Posted by octainejunkee

The owner of the GTS was a top guy and said he had owned the csl gtr built by simpsons in the past.

I improved my times loads towards the end of the day but figured this would be of most interest to you guys..

Cheers Jamie

[TonyR]

I built two csls, one of which was the red gtr race car on Simpsons website and the other was the black road car version that Gorilla bought from me.

The video is little deceptive a I'd just got on the track with cold tyres and an instructor. We were trying out different things so trying to concentrate on what he was saying while a csl was up my arse was a bit tricky! I knew the csl owner wanted to see what the gts was like from a chat just before I went out with the instructor hence why I waited a bit then let him past.

The deep line I pif paf was the instructors idea as the car wasn't very happy there with a normal line, nor in rivage or the entry to stavelot. We found the next day it was much happier with traction fully off and some camber and tire pressure adjustments, as well as a little less rear wing.

Was seeing 2:57 day two with two up and lots of traffic. 2:55 is easily done but I think there is a 2:50 in the car as it stands and less with a couple of tweaks.

Both cars have kw suspension and brakes and similar power to weights. The gts has a torque advantage and in some corners a grip one.

My big issue is that driving is not the same since I had two eye operations and I can't easily focus around corners or pick braking points with any accuracy. I'm having to adapt everything and it's taken most of the last two years to get any confidence or pace back, and a far cry from when I used to race 10'yrs ago.

Please bear that in mind as some of the comments on the video presumably from the passenger were a bit unkind.

I thought the csl was very well driven

[octainejunkee]

Hi mate no disrespect intended- passenger was a little excited and on a high from us keeping up with you hence the comments

As we had just spoke, i knew you were having some instruction tuition and so wanted to leave you space but couldnt resist keeping up to see how it went.-

I really enjoyed the whole day and managed some much better times without a passenger and a car full of two peoples luggage etc.

Last time i was at Spa, i was in my 460/530 bhp/lbft 1M and had opposite lock on up Eau Rouge, which has left me treating it with alot more respect, seem to be loosing alot of time there but i'm gradually building up to a fast line through there again

My pal was filming at the bus stop chicane on the red flag lap and said alot of spectators gave us a cheer when my mates rwd r35gtr, me and your gts came through there sideways...

Look forward to seeing you at another event in the future ?
cheers Jamie

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by octainejunkee

Hi mate no disrespect intended- passenger was a little excited and on a high from us keeping up with you hence the comments

As we had just spoke, i knew you were having some instruction tuition and so wanted to leave you space but couldnt resist keeping up to see how it went.-

I really enjoyed the whole day and managed some much better times without a passenger and a car full of two peoples luggage etc.

Last time i was at Spa, i was in my 460/530 bhp/lbft 1M and had opposite lock on up Eau Rouge, which has left me treating it with alot more respect, seem to be loosing alot of time there but i'm gradually building up to a fast line through there again

My pal was filming at the bus stop chicane on the red flag lap and said alot of spectators gave us a cheer when my mates rwd r35gtr, me and your gts came through there sideways...

Look forward to seeing you at another event in the future ?
cheers Jamie

No worries Think the car will be quicker next time though with exhaust, map, proper geo (it hasn't had one at all) and better tyres (PZero Trofeo I hope).

If I hadn't changed the tyres to the Dunlops, I would have been ALOT slower with the stock Pirelli Corsas. Thing is, your car is a good deal quicker than a stock CSL, so if you compared like for like, the GTS vs CSL out the box, the GTS would be much quicker. Do what you did to yours, and the gap narrows. But, if you added a cage and extinguisher, like the GTS has, then you would fall behind again.

I think ultimately the GTS and E92 is faster than the E46 from its potential, but we are talking a few seconds here - not a massive amount, and one that is easily removed with a couple of mistakes and/or traffic.

What events you planning? I'm definitely at Silverstone with Circuit Days (November 6th) but may do something else in September. Car was a little tired when I got back

I used to track my CSL back in '04, with a cage, 265 cups all round, Intrax, APs, seats, harnesses etc - and it was a similar experience and lap time to the GTS. That car eventually became Gorilla's GTR

[shimmy]

Tony

Id be interested to know why Colin was telling you to take the long route around, exact opposite to the fastest CSL line and I cant beloeve GTS line should be much different.

Id say GTS as it stands should do 2:45 with a dry track, fair wind and strong pair of specs!

Good to see you both enjoying Spa, Im jealous.

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by shimmy

Tony

Id be interested to know why Colin was telling you to take the long route around, exact opposite to the fastest CSL line and I cant beloeve GTS line should be much different.

Id say GTS as it stands should do 2:45 with a dry track, fair wind and strong pair of specs!

Good to see you both enjoying Spa, Im jealous.

I don't think 2:45 as it stands is possible, but will be with a few tweaks.

The problem we had on day one was really one of understeer, so Colin was suggesting go deeper and come out straighter earlier. It really made no difference until day 2 when I added more camber on the right. He was also telling me to go 10 to 20% slower on all the corners to try to get the line right, so as I said the video is deceptive. I had a Smarty Cam HD in mine but actually forgot to turn it on the entire two days (having too much fun!)

I couldn't add enough camber at all - the tyres are worn on the outside due to that (less than 2 degrees, needs to be 2.5 at least). Issue is that the top of the tyre is hitting the strut, so needs bottom adjustment and/or a larger spacer (5mm as stock on there).

The car is at factory settings so is a complete compromise. I'm going to take it to Chris at Centre of Gravity to setup properly, once the new BBS FI rims arrive (18s )

As I said 2:50 was possible today (not from me, 2:55 would have been my best) and with a few minor tweaks, under that - maybe even 2:45 as you suggest.

The other issue is the brakes - I could not put the ducting that the car needs on as the back plates I bought didn't fit, so again was pulling back about 20% on the brakes to avoid the inevitable overheat. I'll pop down to Simpsons to sort all that out in the next week or two We also had a pad difference front to rear (new Endless on front, old Ferodo on rear) which upset the trail brake balance and made the car a bit nose heavy on braking.

Still, despite all that - a great car out of the box, with lots of potential for tweakage in a safe, reliable package. I truly love it.

I should add Colin's tuition definitely helped. Hard to be sure but the laps on the video are at least 10s slower than what the car and me ended up doing.

Really the biggest issue is my eyes - I just don't have very good vision any more, and it can't be corrected yet (and they don't know why).

I'm not dangerous or anything, but I struggle with detail and depth perception as a result. Some of the corners are a bit guesswork and more feel than sight! Trust me, it is brilliant now compared to 18 months ago. My brain is starting to compensate for the disability. Just wish they would hurry up and sort it properly - wished I'd stuck with glasses!

[shane@mbtech]

I'd hope the gts could beat the CSL. Csl can crack sub 2.50 easily.

I can't help thinking that for the price of the GTS it should just work out the box. A GT3 pork would? Genuine question and not criticism.

[TonyR]

Originally Posted by lawsy

I'd hope the gts could beat the CSL. Csl can crack sub 2.50 easily.

I can't help thinking that for the price of the GTS it should just work out the box. A GT3 pork would? Genuine question and not criticism.

A GT3 doesn't - my friend had his 997 Gen II and it destroyed its brakes, and even with replacement Alcons was still crap. He had no end of woes, and in comparison the car was really soft.

The GTS is a good road/track compromise out the box, presumably to make it work at the Ring reasonably. If you intend to use it track only, then it doesn't take much to get it a lot faster.

What is good is I beat the hell out of the car over the two days and went home with no issues. Prior to that the car did 4k miles, 4 heavy trackdays and used 1 set of discs, 2 sets of pads and 1 set of tyres. Not bad going really.

Key thing is every mile is really enjoyable, as it was in my CSL. It isn't a race, and tbh one of the quickest things out there was a MkII golf!!

I was having fun every minute, and that's all that really counts. It is a mega car and lovely to own and drive, as was the CSL.

If you think a CSL was approx £60k, to get to the spec of a GTS you would add cage, proper seats, harnesses, exhaust, brakes, aero, engine work and suspension. Adding components of the same quality as those in the GTS and you are looking at around £25k done - makes it £85k. GTS was £115k, but they are 10 years apart so you can't make a direct comparison. The GTS is still more expensive, but the value of the mods is preserved (you get your money back) which you don't on a modded CSL.

I paid £89k for mine with 1900 miles - basically a new car. It is unlikely to go down much, if at all, with only 8 in the UK. Not quite so silly when you look at it that way, even if the performance was identical.

It's like the GTR tuned vs Nismo debate. Yes, you could build a faster E92 track car for less money, of course you can. So what.

It's nice to get something out the box that is pretty good. Shame BMW didn't do more, but then it leaves me with room to play