Alcon Brake issues - please look - Page 2

**DazBlackCSL** · 03-03-2010, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NZ_M3

Oh interesting that your mate's also experienced this !!!... was it also on a CSL or M3? So it improves as it wore in?:

Yes CSL with Alcon (CSL Cup) brakes and RS14 pads, was always moaning that they were juddering on and off the track (after track days)

And the more he drove the better they got, so drove through it.

**shimmy** · 03-03-2010, 10:42 AM

BUT THE WARPED oval ONES SOUND FAR TOO EXTREME TO BE A BIT OF PAD DEPOSIT - fuck it , caps like Duncan!

NZ_M3 · 03-03-2010, 10:51 AM

Yeah the warped set really was my fault ... no bedding in whatsoever ... was pretty much brand new then straight onto the track at full speed and multiple laps (8+ laps) and then 10 minute break and back on again ...

and that went on for the whole day

Had fun destroying it though

Sounds like I need to get me some Pagids ... or Performance Friction I think ...

**DazBlackCSL** · 03-03-2010, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NZ_M3

Yeah the warped set really was my fault ... that was pretty much brand new then straight onto the track at full speed and multiple laps (8+ laps) and then 10 minute break and back on again ...

and that went on for the whole day

Had fun destroying it though

Sounds like I need to get me some Pagids ... or Performance Friction I think ...

As Nathan has also said RS29's, been running these all year round now, so track and road, squeal a bit on the road, but never had any issues on track, and pull up lap after lap

NZ_M3 · 03-03-2010, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DazBlackCSL

As Nathan has also said RS29's, been running these all year round now, so track and road, squeal a bit on the road, but never had any issues on track, and pull up lap after lap

Price for a set?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DazBlackCSL

Yes CSL with Alcon (CSL Cup) brakes and RS14 pads, was always moaning that they were juddering on and off the track (after track days)

And the more he drove the better they got, so drove through it.

I guess I am not the only one experiencing this with the Alcons then ... hmmmm ... maybe the solution's just more track days

The Gorilla · 03-03-2010, 11:09 AM

Hi,

NZ_M3- Are your Calipers Shimmed corectlty
and centered to your discs ?

Ie] with the front wheel off when you rotate
the disc through 360 degrees does the disc
always stay even equall distance from the disc
face, ?

Also check to see if the calipers are sitting
''square' to the face of the disc, so that
the gap between the face of the Pad and disc
is more or even.

If the calipers are not aligned true to the
face of the Disc, which can be a machine or
tooling issue at manufacture, then you will
not only destroy discs very quickly but you
will suffer Brake Judder.

Softer Pads, such as DS2500 will wear and
tear which will compensate a little for
components which are out of true,
where as Harder Pads will throw up issues
very quickly.

I know AP supply thin 'shim' washers for their
Calipers which are used to 'true' caliper to
edge of disc, but I have seen some on rare
occassions where thin spacers have been
required to centre the caliper over the discs
faces.

Looking at the pictures of your Discs, although
hard to tell from a pic there does not seem to
be much Pad residule on the face, so I would
guess that Pads are not overheating.

Are your Pads able to move Ok within the
Caliper body, as sticking pads will cause
judder and can lead to disc warp.

As a note- when I had AP's on my E39 M5 I had
terrible Brake Judder after about 2000 miles.
AP replaced the discs, and then the same again
more or less.

Was running DS2500 Pads. No point Tracking
2 ton of E39 M5 with recirculating Ball steering.

Then on the third set the discs were not only
bedded in but they were taken right through a
full over heat cycle so that the discs were well,well
'blue' where they meet the alloy disc belles.

Never had any issues after that.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

NZ_M3 · 03-03-2010, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Gorilla

Hi,

NZ_M3- Are your Calipers Shimmed corectlty
and centered to your discs ?

Ie] with the front wheel off when you rotate
the disc through 360 degrees does the disc
always stay even equall distance from the disc
face, ?

Also check to see if the calipers are sitting
''square' to the face of the disc, so that
the gap between the face of the Pad and disc
is more or even.

If the calipers are not aligned true to the
face of the Disc, which can be a machine or
tooling issue at manufacture, then you will
not only destroy discs very quickly but you
will suffer Brake Judder.

Softer Pads, such as DS2500 will wear and
tear which will compensate a little for
components which are out of true,
where as Harder Pads will throw up issues
very quickly.

I know AP supply thin 'shim' washers for their
Calipers which are used to 'true' caliper to
edge of disc, but I have seen some on rare
occassions where thin spacers have been
required to centre the caliper over the discs
faces.

Looking at the pictures of your Discs, although
hard to tell from a pic there does not seem to
be much Pad residule on the face, so I would
guess that Pads are not overheating.

Are your Pads able to move Ok within the
Caliper body, as sticking pads will cause
judder and can lead to disc warp.

As a note- when I had AP's on my E39 M5 I had
terrible Brake Judder after about 2000 miles.
AP replaced the discs, and then the same again
more or less.

Was running DS2500 Pads. No point Tracking
2 ton of E39 M5 with recirculating Ball steering.

Then on the third set the discs were not only
bedded in but they were taken right through a
full over heat cycle so that the discs were well,well
'blue' where they meet the alloy disc belles.

Never had any issues after that.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Hi Gorilla

Thanks for your input.

The Alcons do come with spacer shims and I've measured the gap for the full 360 turn and it runs true to the surface of the disc, it is also square (that was the first few things I checked) - when it isn't square you can hear pad knock (my experience anyways)

The spacing shims for the Alcons however aren't designed to space the caliper axially, rather it spaces the caliper radially to the disc.

Thanks for your input .. seems like there's a couple of possibilities that I can further investigate.

What about the pad hitting the bell as it expands? I have less than 1mm gap between the bell and the pad - wondering if it might be this causing the judder?

I did run the disc through 3 graduating heat cycles as per original post - the discs aren't as blue as I hoped, but that was probably just me picking up speed sooner than I should. Perhaps another round of bedding in you suggest?

_Nathan_ · 03-03-2010, 11:25 AM

If you want your disks to last longer then ditch the DS3000 regardless, they are far more aggressive than RS29, sintered rather than ceramic based.

NZ_M3 · 03-03-2010, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Nathan_

If you want your disks to last longer then ditch the DS3000 regardless, they are far more aggressive than RS29, sintered rather than ceramic based.

YES SIR!! Will do straight away

now who wants to ship me some RS29s

**shimmy** · 03-03-2010, 11:58 AM

what shape code are alcons using?

03-03-2010, 10:42 AM	#12
shimmy CSL Register Uber-poster! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Uk Posts: 14,646 Casino cash: $43909	BUT THE WARPED oval ONES SOUND FAR TOO EXTREME TO BE A BIT OF PAD DEPOSIT - fuck it , caps like Duncan! __________________ .

03-03-2010, 11:25 AM	#18
_Nathan_ Driving it like I nicked it Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,099 Casino cash: $13060	If you want your disks to last longer then ditch the DS3000 regardless, they are far more aggressive than RS29, sintered rather than ceramic based. __________________ Nathan

03-03-2010, 11:58 AM	#20
shimmy CSL Register Uber-poster! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Uk Posts: 14,646 Casino cash: $43909	what shape code are alcons using? __________________ .

03-03-2010, 10:51 AM	#13
NZ_M3 S5, Sport On, DSC M-track Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,434 Casino cash: $13579	Yeah the warped set really was my fault ... no bedding in whatsoever ... was pretty much brand new then straight onto the track at full speed and multiple laps (8+ laps) and then 10 minute break and back on again ... and that went on for the whole day Had fun destroying it though Sounds like I need to get me some Pagids ... or Performance Friction I think ...

03-03-2010, 11:09 AM	#16
The Gorilla S5, Sport Off, DSC M-track Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 740 Casino cash: $14401	Hi, NZ_M3- Are your Calipers Shimmed corectlty and centered to your discs ? Ie] with the front wheel off when you rotate the disc through 360 degrees does the disc always stay even equall distance from the disc face, ? Also check to see if the calipers are sitting ''square' to the face of the disc, so that the gap between the face of the Pad and disc is more or even. If the calipers are not aligned true to the face of the Disc, which can be a machine or tooling issue at manufacture, then you will not only destroy discs very quickly but you will suffer Brake Judder. Softer Pads, such as DS2500 will wear and tear which will compensate a little for components which are out of true, where as Harder Pads will throw up issues very quickly. I know AP supply thin 'shim' washers for their Calipers which are used to 'true' caliper to edge of disc, but I have seen some on rare occassions where thin spacers have been required to centre the caliper over the discs faces. Looking at the pictures of your Discs, although hard to tell from a pic there does not seem to be much Pad residule on the face, so I would guess that Pads are not overheating. Are your Pads able to move Ok within the Caliper body, as sticking pads will cause judder and can lead to disc warp. As a note- when I had AP's on my E39 M5 I had terrible Brake Judder after about 2000 miles. AP replaced the discs, and then the same again more or less. Was running DS2500 Pads. No point Tracking 2 ton of E39 M5 with recirculating Ball steering. Then on the third set the discs were not only bedded in but they were taken right through a full over heat cycle so that the discs were well,well 'blue' where they meet the alloy disc belles. Never had any issues after that. Regards, The Gorilla.