Not CSL But sudgestions requested.

Funkster · 21-06-2012, 05:21 PM

Hi guys, Just wondering what suspension settings you guys would sudgest for our E36 race car......

We got on pretty well in our first years racing last year but it was mainly learning how to drive in a race situation and drive our car but this year we are trying to get a lot more in tune with the setup.

After a disastrous wet race last year I done loads of research on wet setup and it came good a few weeks back when we won our class at Donny.

What we are after now is the best possible dry setup we can manage..... It's a 328i Coupe with full cage, Cheapish BC racing inverted coilovers and non adjustable anti roll bars but front and rear camber is.

We run the car about 1300kg.

The only thing the car seems to lack is initial front end bite on turn in...... The back end is absolutley planted and never an issue, which I think is the reason behind the lack of front.

There is no push or understeer when you get on the throttle or mid way cornering but just on initial turn in.

We currentley run -3.75 front and -1.5 rear on Federal FZ201 Semi Slick race tyres.
We have the front with a total of 3mm toe out and the rear with 2mm toe in.

We did run the car before with a lot more front toe out which did help the turn in greatly but the straightline stability and breaking was shite and it locked up far too easily, Although I was quicker with this setup I have since been informed that it's not a good idea to run too much toe out anyway because of tyre wear and speed loss etc.

We are on a dry (hopefully) track day at Snetterton on monday where we are going to try out various settings before our race next weekend.

Our initial thing to try will be to stiffen up the rear and then maybe soften up the front. All tyres seem to have good temperature across the widths and we are also getting pretty good even wear.

Some of you guys seem to know your stuff so any sudgestions are greatly welcomed.

Cheers Matty ( MAD Motorsport )

billyboysm3 · 22-06-2012, 10:47 AM

44 Views and no comments means two things!

That we all pretend to know about car setup but havent got a clue (or do not want to pass on our best setup for dry) or we all know that as its you Funkster its going to rain so your better off keeping with wet setup.

Funkster · 22-06-2012, 11:58 AM

Billy, I'm all for a wet race TBH but need Snett dry on Monday Please Please Please !!!!!

We think we are heading in the right direction with getting the old tub right but we are always open to any advice or hint's.

Ive been reading and reading but it can get so complicated with static camber, Dynamic camber, Slip angles etc......

We are just out to have some fun but want to get the best out of what we have......

I've got some ideas to work with so looking forward to trying them out !!
on Monday in the Glorious Norfolk Sunshine

Matty.

shane@mbtech · 22-06-2012, 12:40 PM

Are you running staggered wheel/Tyres?

_Nathan_ · 22-06-2012, 12:43 PM

You could add a little more rake?

Funkster · 22-06-2012, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawsy

Are you running staggered wheel/Tyres?

No we are running a square setup on 17's shane !

We do run 10mm spacers front and back in the wet but it's only coz our wet wheels don't clear the AP's.

Nathan,
We have the front slammed as low as possible, any more and we are scrubbing tyres on turn in. I suppose raising the back slightly could loosen the rear and possibly help the front.

Matty.

**shimmy** · 22-06-2012, 01:19 PM

matty

as you are on road tyres imho getting grip levels right is critical

not easy to give you an answer as the combination of damper build/adjustment, spring rates, geo settings, tyre make and condition, and then the variable conditions make it very complicated.

if it were me and listening to your comment i would in this order:

1. make sure tyres are fresh and soft
2. assuming dampers and springs fixed set car more soft to front and hard to rear on dampers until you get more grip on turn in whilst maintaining high speed stability and kerb runing at rear
3. get proper pyro info/advice to set up the cars geo, getting temps and adjusting pressures wheel by wheel is invaluable as it takes guess work out. on CSL on cups we showed front camber at -2.75 was perfect and rear at -2.0 was not quite enough to get even temps across the tyre even by dropping pressures more than maybe would be recommeded

At Snett for simple improvements i would concentrate for lap times only 4 key corners

Riches, Williams, Bomb Hole and Murrays. if you can set up and drive these corners you will gain heaps of time and maybe open up more overtaking chances at the end of the straights

shane@mbtech · 22-06-2012, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funkster

No we are running a square setup on 17's shane !

We do run 10mm spacers front and back in the wet but it's only coz our wet wheels don't clear the AP's.

Nathan,
We have the front slammed as low as possible, any more and we are scrubbing tyres on turn in. I suppose raising the back slightly could loosen the rear and possibly help the front.

Matty.

The BC are not the greatest, and being slammed will probably have the front too low, bottoming out causing it to skip on initial turn in.

Try raising the front. And soften too.

The Gorilla · 22-06-2012, 03:02 PM

Hi,

Little lacking in info here but, your BC's are
not up to proper Track Work.

What spring rates F & R
Tenders or Helpers F & R
Any Valve Rates ?
Rebound and compression adjust all in one ?
And so on.

You would find the front much more compliant
and sharper on turn in if running say E36 Grp N front
springs, and even the std Front dampers, as Grp N
spring rate is well match to the std damper
valving, and was developed for Racing, not like
the BC's.

If your budget allows then loose the BC's and
obtain some 'proper' coilovers.
If not, putting stiffer springs on the BC's
will not do much as you want the car to sit
on the springs and ride on dampers so they
do the work. BC's are not designed like this.

You also require stiffer front ARB if its
std E36 328 and use adjustable ARB drop
Links so you can take off any pre-load
from the front ARB, you do not want it working
before the chassis has even rolled in.

I can not remember but I think the 328 STD ARB
has flat flange ends so you can redrill a new hole
for the drop link and stiffen it that way if budget
is tight, same goes for the rear.

Adjustable drop links also allows rear ARB to taken right off in the wet.

Make sure your front wishbones at ride
height are in the very least level or
better still inclined down towards hub.
If they are inverted to Car, then it will handle like
a pig on chocolate.

If you can set the car with the front wishbones
level or inclined, then you may find
that a longer spring on the BC's gives you
a little more compliant ride until you can ditch
them.

You will require bump spacers for the Wishbones
and the steering tie rods, so that you can lower
them at the hub.

If the Wishbones are inverted then your roll centre
is below Ground level on turn in which pushes all
the load through the wishbones etc and makes the
car handle like its on jelly.

Irrespective of wheel / tyre widths/ combo's try and
make sure that the centre line of the front Track,
ie centre of rim to centre of rim
is circa 5mm + more wider than the rear Track, even if running
staggered set up with wider rear tyres.

That will also assist with turn in.

Do you have the M52/M54 Alloy Block engine ?

If so, be careful on Spring Rates as its circa 35kg +
less weigh up front and makes quite a difference from
something for a Iron 6 pot.

Hope that helps,

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Funkster · 22-06-2012, 07:22 PM

Right, Some really good info there guys and plenty of food for thought.

I know the coilovers are not the best and we are racing on a tight budget and doing everything ourselves so the ratio of fun/spend is so far really satisfying. I have a friend who has stepped up and up in his racing career but it seems to be causing a lot less smiles and miles for a lot larger piles ( of cash )

Link to Coily's we are using http://www.bc-racing.co.uk/coilovers-series-rm/
They are single adjustable with bump/rebound in one.
We are running Fr 560lb and Rears at 475lb but I have no idea on valve rates.
The tyres are new only one race ago and are in great condition...
Linky to Tyres http://www.federaltire.com/en/produc...ts_detail_sn=3

It is the M52 Alloy engine fitted

We have debated on making some adjustable tie rods for the roll bar as the Standard 328 item is already larger in diameter that the M3 bar so it should suffice but it connects to the suspension arm rather than the leg, We initially connected ours to the front leg as the M3 would but the car was picking up the inside wheel up to 5" during a race at Cadwell in really hot conditions last year so we moved back to original settings later ( Although we did win the race )

I'm going to look into the suspension arm angles but I'm sure we have a slight incline down to hub and steering arms as a friend was trying to explain dyanmic camber to me and I was looking the other night whether the steering rack could be spaced slighlty lower to level it up any more.

I think my initial things to try on Monday are pretty much what Shimmy has said... Stiffen the rear and possibly soften the front. The car is not that far from perfect for me and we are deffinitley competitive in our Class but I'm just chasing that Initial front bite that I feel could be better.

Really appreciate your feedback guys.... As I said we just want to get the most out od what we already have....... It's just so satisfying when you get a pole in class or fatsest lap of the race and it's all been setup by us on a shoestring

Matty.

21-06-2012, 05:21 PM	#1
Funkster S4 - Getting the hang of it Join Date: May 2011 Location: Norfolk Posts: 135 Casino cash: $4098	Not CSL But sudgestions requested. Hi guys, Just wondering what suspension settings you guys would sudgest for our E36 race car...... We got on pretty well in our first years racing last year but it was mainly learning how to drive in a race situation and drive our car but this year we are trying to get a lot more in tune with the setup. After a disastrous wet race last year I done loads of research on wet setup and it came good a few weeks back when we won our class at Donny. What we are after now is the best possible dry setup we can manage..... It's a 328i Coupe with full cage, Cheapish BC racing inverted coilovers and non adjustable anti roll bars but front and rear camber is. We run the car about 1300kg. The only thing the car seems to lack is initial front end bite on turn in...... The back end is absolutley planted and never an issue, which I think is the reason behind the lack of front. There is no push or understeer when you get on the throttle or mid way cornering but just on initial turn in. We currentley run -3.75 front and -1.5 rear on Federal FZ201 Semi Slick race tyres. We have the front with a total of 3mm toe out and the rear with 2mm toe in. We did run the car before with a lot more front toe out which did help the turn in greatly but the straightline stability and breaking was shite and it locked up far too easily, Although I was quicker with this setup I have since been informed that it's not a good idea to run too much toe out anyway because of tyre wear and speed loss etc. We are on a dry (hopefully) track day at Snetterton on monday where we are going to try out various settings before our race next weekend. Our initial thing to try will be to stiffen up the rear and then maybe soften up the front. All tyres seem to have good temperature across the widths and we are also getting pretty good even wear. Some of you guys seem to know your stuff so any sudgestions are greatly welcomed. Cheers Matty ( MAD Motorsport ) Last edited by Funkster; 21-06-2012 at 05:37 PM.

22-06-2012, 12:43 PM	#5
_Nathan_ Driving it like I nicked it Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,099 Casino cash: $13060	You could add a little more rake? __________________ Nathan

22-06-2012, 01:19 PM	#7
shimmy CSL Register Uber-poster! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Uk Posts: 14,646 Casino cash: $43909	matty as you are on road tyres imho getting grip levels right is critical not easy to give you an answer as the combination of damper build/adjustment, spring rates, geo settings, tyre make and condition, and then the variable conditions make it very complicated. if it were me and listening to your comment i would in this order: 1. make sure tyres are fresh and soft 2. assuming dampers and springs fixed set car more soft to front and hard to rear on dampers until you get more grip on turn in whilst maintaining high speed stability and kerb runing at rear 3. get proper pyro info/advice to set up the cars geo, getting temps and adjusting pressures wheel by wheel is invaluable as it takes guess work out. on CSL on cups we showed front camber at -2.75 was perfect and rear at -2.0 was not quite enough to get even temps across the tyre even by dropping pressures more than maybe would be recommeded At Snett for simple improvements i would concentrate for lap times only 4 key corners Riches, Williams, Bomb Hole and Murrays. if you can set up and drive these corners you will gain heaps of time and maybe open up more overtaking chances at the end of the straights __________________ . Last edited by shimmy; 22-06-2012 at 01:26 PM.

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22-06-2012, 10:47 AM	#2
billyboysm3 CSL Register Uber-poster! Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,001 Casino cash: $25206	44 Views and no comments means two things! That we all pretend to know about car setup but havent got a clue (or do not want to pass on our best setup for dry) or we all know that as its you Funkster its going to rain so your better off keeping with wet setup.

22-06-2012, 11:58 AM	#3
Funkster S4 - Getting the hang of it Join Date: May 2011 Location: Norfolk Posts: 135 Casino cash: $4098	Billy, I'm all for a wet race TBH but need Snett dry on Monday Please Please Please !!!!! We think we are heading in the right direction with getting the old tub right but we are always open to any advice or hint's. Ive been reading and reading but it can get so complicated with static camber, Dynamic camber, Slip angles etc...... We are just out to have some fun but want to get the best out of what we have...... I've got some ideas to work with so looking forward to trying them out !! on Monday in the Glorious Norfolk Sunshine Matty.

22-06-2012, 12:40 PM	#4
shane@mbtech CSL Register Uber-poster! Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: warrington Posts: 5,419 Casino cash: $19783	Are you running staggered wheel/Tyres?

22-06-2012, 03:02 PM	#9
The Gorilla S5, Sport Off, DSC M-track Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 740 Casino cash: $14401	Hi, Little lacking in info here but, your BC's are not up to proper Track Work. What spring rates F & R Tenders or Helpers F & R Any Valve Rates ? Rebound and compression adjust all in one ? And so on. You would find the front much more compliant and sharper on turn in if running say E36 Grp N front springs, and even the std Front dampers, as Grp N spring rate is well match to the std damper valving, and was developed for Racing, not like the BC's. If your budget allows then loose the BC's and obtain some 'proper' coilovers. If not, putting stiffer springs on the BC's will not do much as you want the car to sit on the springs and ride on dampers so they do the work. BC's are not designed like this. You also require stiffer front ARB if its std E36 328 and use adjustable ARB drop Links so you can take off any pre-load from the front ARB, you do not want it working before the chassis has even rolled in. I can not remember but I think the 328 STD ARB has flat flange ends so you can redrill a new hole for the drop link and stiffen it that way if budget is tight, same goes for the rear. Adjustable drop links also allows rear ARB to taken right off in the wet. Make sure your front wishbones at ride height are in the very least level or better still inclined down towards hub. If they are inverted to Car, then it will handle like a pig on chocolate. If you can set the car with the front wishbones level or inclined, then you may find that a longer spring on the BC's gives you a little more compliant ride until you can ditch them. You will require bump spacers for the Wishbones and the steering tie rods, so that you can lower them at the hub. If the Wishbones are inverted then your roll centre is below Ground level on turn in which pushes all the load through the wishbones etc and makes the car handle like its on jelly. Irrespective of wheel / tyre widths/ combo's try and make sure that the centre line of the front Track, ie centre of rim to centre of rim is circa 5mm + more wider than the rear Track, even if running staggered set up with wider rear tyres. That will also assist with turn in. Do you have the M52/M54 Alloy Block engine ? If so, be careful on Spring Rates as its circa 35kg + less weigh up front and makes quite a difference from something for a Iron 6 pot. Hope that helps, Regards, The Gorilla.

22-06-2012, 07:22 PM	#10
Funkster S4 - Getting the hang of it Join Date: May 2011 Location: Norfolk Posts: 135 Casino cash: $4098	Right, Some really good info there guys and plenty of food for thought. I know the coilovers are not the best and we are racing on a tight budget and doing everything ourselves so the ratio of fun/spend is so far really satisfying. I have a friend who has stepped up and up in his racing career but it seems to be causing a lot less smiles and miles for a lot larger piles ( of cash ) Link to Coily's we are using http://www.bc-racing.co.uk/coilovers-series-rm/ They are single adjustable with bump/rebound in one. We are running Fr 560lb and Rears at 475lb but I have no idea on valve rates. The tyres are new only one race ago and are in great condition... Linky to Tyres http://www.federaltire.com/en/produc...ts_detail_sn=3 It is the M52 Alloy engine fitted We have debated on making some adjustable tie rods for the roll bar as the Standard 328 item is already larger in diameter that the M3 bar so it should suffice but it connects to the suspension arm rather than the leg, We initially connected ours to the front leg as the M3 would but the car was picking up the inside wheel up to 5" during a race at Cadwell in really hot conditions last year so we moved back to original settings later ( Although we did win the race ) I'm going to look into the suspension arm angles but I'm sure we have a slight incline down to hub and steering arms as a friend was trying to explain dyanmic camber to me and I was looking the other night whether the steering rack could be spaced slighlty lower to level it up any more. I think my initial things to try on Monday are pretty much what Shimmy has said... Stiffen the rear and possibly soften the front. The car is not that far from perfect for me and we are deffinitley competitive in our Class but I'm just chasing that Initial front bite that I feel could be better. Really appreciate your feedback guys.... As I said we just want to get the most out od what we already have....... It's just so satisfying when you get a pole in class or fatsest lap of the race and it's all been setup by us on a shoestring Matty.