After a wash!!

[NZ_M3]

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

Thanks! About E92 M3...hmm, interesting question. Well to be objective, i think its an excellent car as an overall package. For that money, the performance is quite impressive. And the car is the great compromise. Its extremely comfortable, quiet, you can go to IKEA and transport all the furniture, you can travel 10 hours flat out with no pain in your back.....but at the same time you can distroy an arrogant guy in porsche or aston martin you meet on the road.

BUT.....and there is a big BUT. The car is soul-less. Whist impressivly fast, there is no feeback from it. As if you sit in the sofa and play a game on the playstation. And that is sometimes annoying me a lot.

To compare it with a CSL would not be fair, since the cars are made for completely different purposes. I had a chance to find an amazing mountain road and within 2 hours, I drove both cars up and down many times. I was astonished by CSL's front end grip and the lightness. Later when I went the same route with my E92, you feel the heaviness on a front end. Surprisingly, I found E92 more difficult to drive fast as I am never 100% sure what the car will do. It feels very disconnected from the road.

What are your thoughts?

Your review of the E92 M3 seems to be the common feedback I hear about this car - don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily disagree with it, but I think it really doesn't do the car justice and the amount of negative press against it is often unjustified ... let me digress:

If you cast your minds back to the height of the E46 M3 GTR days you'll realise the similarities of what BMW was attempting to achieve with the E92 M3.

4 litre 90 degree V8 - check
Vents in the bonnet - check
Aluminium suspension - check
CSL type intake and DME - check
light weight measures - check (I know I know, debatable about this, but look, light weight fender, roof, suspension ect ect - they went further than the CSL truth be told).

There was a lot of CSLness built into the E92 M3 ... then somebody in the M department realised that they had to make the car usable, and also be competitive against the likes of Audis and Mercedes in terms of luxury amenities .. so they added all these 'extras' back into the car and made it user friendly.

I think it's this user friendliness that make people say the E92 M3 is soul-less, soft, lack in feedback ect ect ...

Having had the car since Aug last year and over 8000km of travel in it (I've yet to take it to a track day, but I have had fun chasing quite a few of these on a proper race track in the CSL, so it has given me a pretty good indication of their performance level and capabilities) I can honestly say that this car is far from soul-less, lack in feel or feedback or "soft" - far from it.

This car communicates in a different way to the CSL - yes the steering sensation is probably dulled by the electronic power steer system and the pure mass of the car, but it is still very direct point to point. This doesn't mean it isn't sharp, it just has a very high front end grip limit contrasted to the E46 (I personally feel the E92 has better front end grip than the CSL and a chassis that's very well sorted).

The V8 engine is a master piece in this car. Every time I get back in the CSL I think to myself, wow, never realised how 'rough' the inline 6 felt compared to the sweet revving V8 - it is that noticeable. And wind your window down for that intake noise (the car's sound insulation is simply too good and muffs all the proper noises) - whilst not quite the banshy that the CSL induction gives, it is a step up from the stocker E46 M3 by miles. The ZF built 6 speed gearbox is also nicer to use than the getreg item found in the E46.

The speed in the E92 is also deceptive - because of its mass and it's ability to soak up undulations in the road it gives a false sense of 'boringness" in the drive - just gaz down at the speedometer and you'll notice how you've already lost your licence many times over (I've certainly surprised myself numerous times stepping on this car) it is deceptively fast.

I think BMW set out to achieve what they intended to achieve with the E92 M3 .. a car just as quick (if not quicker in a striaght line) as the CSL but with lot more refinement and usability.

Is it a CSL replacement? - not a chance, never intended to be ... but is it better than the E46 M3? ... by a mile.

[GTAStradale]

Your review of the E92 M3 seems to be the common feedback I hear about this car - don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily disagree with it, but I think it really doesn't do the car justice and the amount of negative press against it is often unjustified ... let me digress:

Its interesting what you are saying. You are the only person I met so far that has both cars, so your opinion is very valuable. I guess you are right, but there is one thing. You have both cars - after making couple of rounds/laps with CSL you don't mind having a comfy E92 :-) Therefore I am planning to do the same combination, if finances will allow.

If you cast your minds back to the height of the E46 M3 GTR days you'll realise the similarities of what BMW was attempting to achieve with the E92 M3.

4 litre 90 degree V8 - check
Vents in the bonnet - check
Aluminium suspension - check
CSL type intake and DME - check
light weight measures - check (I know I know, debatable about this, but look, light weight fender, roof, suspension ect ect - they went further than the CSL truth be told).

There was a lot of CSLness built into the E92 M3 ... then somebody in the M department realised that they had to make the car usable, and also be competitive against the likes of Audis and Mercedes in terms of luxury amenities .. so they added all these 'extras' back into the car and made it user friendly.

What do you mean by the CSL intake???? I would be over the moon if my E92 would have such a sound from induction!

I think it's this user friendliness that make people say the E92 M3 is soul-less, soft, lack in feedback ect ect ...

Having had the car since Aug last year and over 8000km of travel in it (I've yet to take it to a track day, but I have had fun chasing quite a few of these on a proper race track in the CSL, so it has given me a pretty good indication of their performance level and capabilities) I can honestly say that this car is far from soul-less, lack in feel or feedback or "soft" - far from it.

This car communicates in a different way to the CSL - yes the steering sensation is probably dulled by the electronic power steer system and the pure mass of the car, but it is still very direct point to point. This doesn't mean it isn't sharp, it just has a very high front end grip limit contrasted to the E46 (I personally feel the E92 has better front end grip than the CSL and a chassis that's very well sorted).

Interesting what you say about the front end grip. Now you make me think that I may need go to the garage to check my front end geometry. I got completely different impression and the CSL that I have tried was not even on Cups. I agree that the steering is focused and precise, but my impression is still that the feedback is lacking a lot.

The V8 engine is a master piece in this car. Every time I get back in the CSL I think to myself, wow, never realised how 'rough' the inline 6 felt compared to the sweet revving V8 - it is that noticeable. And wind your window down for that intake noise (the car's sound insulation is simply too good and muffs all the proper noises) - whilst not quite the banshy that the CSL induction gives, it is a step up from the stocker E46 M3 by miles. The ZF built 6 speed gearbox is also nicer to use than the getreg item found in the E46.

Yes, the engine is the masterpiece. Very very refined, to the extent that I sometimes miss a bit of roughness to be honest. But its impressive, no question about it. Gearbox i find ok, not the smoothest one though. I am for example very annoyed that on the uneven road you cant change gears quickly on higher revs. Many people report the same issue. Personally, I think its due to soft engine mounts (again to make it user friendly). I was even thinking to write BMW a letter, because its sad that in the middle of the german autobahn you cant put it into 5th gear normally.

The speed in the E92 is also deceptive - because of its mass and it's ability to soak up undulations in the road it gives a false sense of 'boringness" in the drive - just gaz down at the speedometer and you'll notice how you've already lost your licence many times over (I've certainly surprised myself numerous times stepping on this car) it is deceptively fast.

Very true. And that is exactly what I meant by saying that the feel is similar to sitting in a sofa. I found myself many times in such situation on a curvy german autobahn, you look at the speedo and you just dont believe how quicky you go.

I think BMW set out to achieve what they intended to achieve with the E92 M3 .. a car just as quick (if not quicker in a striaght line) as the CSL but with lot more refinement and usability.

Excellent - that is exactly what it is. BMW wanted to achieve that. But only to increase sales - and the sales in is American market. I read an article about that. So they build a car that may sell well, but still is this the direction M cars should go to? I dont disagree, but at least offer a sporty version as well. It doesnt need to be a CSL, but maybe inbetween? I hate the fact that I need to sit so high up and the seat doesnt go down. Why? Because they put electric motors with memory, so you can memorize 2 seat position! Honestly, I never used the thing, but I need to sit as if I am driving the truck, just because some Americans (sorry guys for generalizing) want to be comfortable when they order McDonalds!

And the brakes, dont let me even start! I know the CSL has similar problems, but this is ridiculous. You drive on a geman autobahn and after 3 brakings the brakes are completely gone ! I dont understand that. I am perfectly fine that the brakes wont last long on the track, but on the normal road they should hold at least (especially if you drive within speed limits ).

Is it a CSL replacement? - not a chance, never intended to be ... but is it better than the E46 M3? ... by a mile.

Its not, you are right.

I am just thinking if we are maybe boring other people here who dont want to listen about these debates, since its a CSL forum. So you can PM me if you want.

Are you coming to Spa?

[Mark CSL]

Keep the post alive we do like the reading as you guys know a bit

[NZ_M3]

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

after making couple of rounds/laps with CSL you don't mind having a comfy E92 :-) Therefore I am planning to do the same combination, if finances will allow.

It is a good combination to have to be honest and if finances allows I'd high recommend it.

You are partly right, the E92 is a good alternative when I want 'speed in comfort' rather than 'speed with action' ala the CSL haha ...

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

What do you mean by the CSL intake???? I would be over the moon if my E92 would have such a sound from induction!

Get a filter ... it'll open it up like the CSL.

The E92 intake design is very similar to the CSL - in fact probably a step up (in terms of computing power). It doesn't utilise a MAF just like the CSL and runs on temp sensors and throttle position and has a tune much like Alpha N, again just like the CSL - basically the design was based on the CSL - I mean look at the airbox on top of that engine (look at the size of it and the intake tube running to it) - if only BMW had made that out of Carbon fibre, everyone would be drooling over it now - shame it was mass produced, so plastic it was!!

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

Interesting what you say about the front end grip. Now you make me think that I may need go to the garage to check my front end geometry. I got completely different impression and the CSL that I have tried was not even on Cups. I agree that the steering is focused and precise, but my impression is still that the feedback is lacking a lot.

The new E92 definitely has more front end grip (even our BMW instructor - a very well known racing driver here - said the same thing, and he's able to clock some pretty impressive times in stock standard CSLs with Cups - in fact he's been able to beat his time around the same track with the E92 on road tyres by about half a second) - check your geometry setup, it makes a world of difference.

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

Yes, the engine is the masterpiece. Very very refined, to the extent that I sometimes miss a bit of roughness to be honest. But its impressive, no question about it. Gearbox i find ok, not the smoothest one though. I am for example very annoyed that on the uneven road you cant change gears quickly on higher revs. Many people report the same issue. Personally, I think its due to soft engine mounts (again to make it user friendly). I was even thinking to write BMW a letter, because its sad that in the middle of the german autobahn you cant put it into 5th gear normally.

It does lack that "mechanical" urgency like the inline 6 - but refined it is. Some people call it lacking in character, but I can't help but think that if noise = character, then most of those people really would be better off with a Honda Vtec Plenty of character from those engines

The gearbox issue is well reported - there was a couple of dud units I am aware of, but I can assure you that if you followed the running in procedure and was kind to the gearbox during those period that it will shift smoothly like knife through butter - mine certainly does in every single gear with no notchiness or clunkiness like the old Getreg. I've not had an issue with high RPM shifts either - nada (I have certainly read about them though and have experienced this first hand in the dealership demonstrator M3, mostly due to abuse when new).

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

Very true. And that is exactly what I meant by saying that the feel is similar to sitting in a sofa. I found myself many times in such situation on a curvy german autobahn, you look at the speedo and you just dont believe how quicky you go.

Well that's not necessarily a bad thing I suppose - you are carrying speed in comfort

I do find that the stock suspension setup to have very good high speed damping though - something you really need in a car capabable of very high speeds.

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

Excellent - that is exactly what it is. BMW wanted to achieve that. But only to increase sales - and the sales in is American market. I read an article about that. So they build a car that may sell well, but still is this the direction M cars should go to? I dont disagree, but at least offer a sporty version as well. It doesnt need to be a CSL, but maybe inbetween? I hate the fact that I need to sit so high up and the seat doesnt go down. Why? Because they put electric motors with memory, so you can memorize 2 seat position! Honestly, I never used the thing, but I need to sit as if I am driving the truck, just because some Americans (sorry guys for generalizing) want to be comfortable when they order McDonalds!

I agree about the seating position - ironically the Sedan version sits way lower than the coupe!! Go figure!! The BMW performance seats apparently makes it worse and you end up sitting higher than the stock seats

If I had driven the sedan before I bought the coupe, I think I would have gone with the sedan purely on seating position - because honestly, there's not that much performance difference between the two - the sedan is probably more rigid too (it does feel a tad more stable than the coupe for some odd reason).

YOu know, BMW did bring out the GTS (and just to punish the Americans for making them make a soft standard M3, they are not selling it over there ) - now that car's a step up from the CSL. I'd love to have one of those ...

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

And the brakes, dont let me even start! I know the CSL has similar problems, but this is ridiculous. You drive on a geman autobahn and after 3 brakings the brakes are completely gone ! I dont understand that. I am perfectly fine that the brakes wont last long on the track, but on the normal road they should hold at least (especially if you drive within speed limits ).

Agree about the brakes ... they are crap period ...

There's some serious questions to be asked as to why a 135i coupe gets 6 pot brembos and a M car gets single piston swing calipers haha ...

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

Are you coming to Spa?

I'd love to !! Heck I need to at least experience the Nurburgring or the likes at least once in my life!

[glendog74]

Originally Posted by NZ_M3

Heck I need to at least experience the Nurburgring or the likes at least once in my life!

Yes!

[mattCSLnut]

Originally Posted by NZ_M3

I'd love to !! Heck I need to at least experience the Nurburgring or the likes at least once in my life!

Yes U do but it wont be just the once ... U can't fight the RING bug

[GTAStradale]

You seem to know quite a lot about these cars, so I am really enjoying absorbing your knowledge. Soon you will make me like the car too much and then I will lose the determination to get a CSL .
Not really !

Get a filter ... it'll open it up like the CSL.

Now you got my attention completely. Do you mind sharing with me which brand would you recommend? Did you put it on your car?

The new E92 definitely has more front end grip (even our BMW instructor - a very well known racing driver here - said the same thing, and he's able to clock some pretty impressive times in stock standard CSLs with Cups - in fact he's been able to beat his time around the same track with the E92 on road tyres by about half a second) - check your geometry setup, it makes a world of difference.

Very interesting what you are saying. Do you have stock geometry setup or did you play around with it? I am going to check it for sure, since my current impressions are completely the opposite. If you changed the setup, do you mind sharing with me what did you change? Otherwise I will just check if it is within stock measures.

It does lack that "mechanical" urgency like the inline 6 - but refined it is. Some people call it lacking in character, but I can't help but think that if noise = character, then most of those people really would be better off with a Honda Vtec Plenty of character from those engines

Agreed, but it wouldnt harm every now and then to hear the exhaust burning some extra gas remainings by downshifting

The gearbox issue is well reported - there was a couple of dud units I am aware of, but I can assure you that if you followed the running in procedure and was kind to the gearbox during those period that it will shift smoothly like knife through butter - mine certainly does in every single gear with no notchiness or clunkiness like the old Getreg. I've not had an issue with high RPM shifts either - nada (I have certainly read about them though and have experienced this first hand in the dealership demonstrator M3, mostly due to abuse when new).

Very interesting what you are saying. Considering my car was not new when I bought it, I think you may have given me an answer on what is going on.....

Well that's not necessarily a bad thing I suppose - you are carrying speed in comfort

I do find that the stock suspension setup to have very good high speed damping though - something you really need in a car capabable of very high speeds.

This is impressive, I agree. Its astonishing how good the suspension is. I have never experienced a car that can absort the uneven road at high speeds so well. Sometimes when the road is uneven and you take a corner at high speed (200km plus) it is incredible how the car absorbs the bumps and slightly slides at the same time. Well done BMW in that respect. Any my car doesnt even have EDC, so I assume it can only get better with it. BTW - I deliberatly went for a car without EDC. Honestly, I know it sounds crazy, but I found EDC in a normal more very weird. I dont know if it is only me, but with EDC I felt the car is even more disconnected from the road which could be the case since its active dampering. However, I still dont exclude the possibility it was only in my head, as I am not a huge fan of all these electronics.

I agree about the seating position - ironically the Sedan version sits way lower than the coupe!! Go figure!! The BMW performance seats apparently makes it worse and you end up sitting higher than the stock seats

If I had driven the sedan before I bought the coupe, I think I would have gone with the sedan purely on seating position - because honestly, there's not that much performance difference between the two - the sedan is probably more rigid too (it does feel a tad more stable than the coupe for some odd reason).

Unbelievable. I am going to try one sedan tomorrow, I cannot believe that is the case. Do you know why? Is it the construction of the floor, or is the dashboard positioned higher?
Yes you are right about BMW performance. Its also unbelievable. Plus there is support in these seats, if you are less than 120kg.

YOu know, BMW did bring out the GTS (and just to punish the Americans for making them make a soft standard M3, they are not selling it over there ) - now that car's a step up from the CSL. I'd love to have one of those ...

Lovely machine. I have only 3 problems with it. 1) Its too expensive, 2) it has been apparently sold out and 3) not sure I am a fan or orange. Never saw it in person, however, Alexk went there and says its amazing.

Agree about the brakes ... they are crap period ...

There's some serious questions to be asked as to why a 135i coupe gets 6 pot brembos and a M car gets single piston swing calipers haha ...

Exactly. I just cannot believe that there is even not an option for an upgrade. Every brochure about the car that exists always has a picture of a car on a race track, and the thing cannot even cope with a mororway. I started to believe the problem might be in the cooling, so now I am considering doing some DIY on brake ducts. Noone seems to be producing kits for that, so I am still in a research phase. If you know anything about the subject, let me know. I know its not great for aerodinamics, but if i have to choose between going to Spa and drive with not ideal aerodynamics, and going to Spa with ideal aerodynamics and not being able to brake....I opt for the first choice.

I'd love to !! Heck I need to at least experience the Nurburgring or the likes at least once in my life!

So why dont you try to join us? I am sure it will be a mega fun event !

[GTAStradale]

I'd love to !! Heck I need to at least experience the Nurburgring or the likes at least once in my life!

I just got a call from Alexk, basically saying that you are from New Zealand. For some reason, I was rushing and saw that your number plates have blue on the left and it seemed to me that there are stars inside....so the whole time I thought you are from Netherlands

Sorry mate...now I understand that meeting at the Ring is not that easy to arrange. You can see that I am still new here and therefore it does justice to have "Wonky "L" after washing" next to my avatar

[mattCSLnut]

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

I just got a call from Alexk, basically saying that you are from New Zealand. For some reason, I was rushing and saw that your number plates have blue on the left and it seemed to me that there are stars inside....so the whole time I thought you are from Netherlands

Sorry mate...now I understand that meeting at the Ring is not that easy to arrange. You can see that I am still new here and therefore it does justice to have "Wonky "L" after washing" next to my avatar

A small clue in Tom's forum name NZ_M3

[NZ_M3]

Sorry for the late reply, been holidaying in Australia for the last couple of days with the wife ... just got back!

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

You seem to know quite a lot about these cars, so I am really enjoying absorbing your knowledge. Soon you will make me like the car too much and then I will lose the determination to get a CSL .
Not really !

Thanks! But I am always learning new things also from fellow members - this is a great forum with a great bunch of members on here that share a common bond and enthusiasm for a great car - happy to impart any knowledge I have (and also be corrected every now and then - mostly by Mr Gorilla )

Now go and buy yourself a CSL ... you won't regret it !!

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

Now you got my attention completely. Do you mind sharing with me which brand would you recommend? Did you put it on your car?

BMC or AFE make great filters for this car - personally I prefer BMC over the AFE ... but only because the CSL uses a BMC filter

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

Very interesting what you are saying. Do you have stock geometry setup or did you play around with it? I am going to check it for sure, since my current impressions are completely the opposite. If you changed the setup, do you mind sharing with me what did you change? Otherwise I will just check if it is within stock measures.

I've set mine up to factory specs for now (seems to work quite well in my opinion) - but I have played around with the geo a couple of times with this car, I'll need to find my spec sheet as I can't remember it off the top of my head what I've tried. I know the BMW driver training M3 has a very good set up and slightly different to factory (the guy that did that car works on my CSL exclusively) - I'll ask him what the specs are.

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

Agreed, but it wouldnt harm every now and then to hear the exhaust burning some extra gas remainings by downshifting

True ...

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

Very interesting what you are saying. Considering my car was not new when I bought it, I think you may have given me an answer on what is going on.....

Even the mechanics that work on my cars have commented how well the gearbox shifts in mine compared to some of the others they've driven - I really do believe it comes down to treating it nicely during running in - having read the issue on the net before I purchased the car made me extra aware of the problem - I guess the extra care paid off for me at least.

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

This is impressive, I agree. Its astonishing how good the suspension is. I have never experienced a car that can absort the uneven road at high speeds so well. Sometimes when the road is uneven and you take a corner at high speed (200km plus) it is incredible how the car absorbs the bumps and slightly slides at the same time. Well done BMW in that respect. Any my car doesnt even have EDC, so I assume it can only get better with it. BTW - I deliberatly went for a car without EDC. Honestly, I know it sounds crazy, but I found EDC in a normal more very weird. I dont know if it is only me, but with EDC I felt the car is even more disconnected from the road which could be the case since its active dampering. However, I still dont exclude the possibility it was only in my head, as I am not a huge fan of all these electronics.

Mine is also EDC-less. I've driven the EDC cars and to be honest I think the EDC-less cars have a setting somewhere between the normal and sport setting (leaning on the sport side). EDC is too gimmicky for my liking ... I opted for the non EDC version simply because (as it has transpired) there's simply more options on aftermarket coilovers for non EDC cars ... I might eventually throw in a set of coilovers for this car, but as of now I can honestly say that I have not been tempted to mod the E92 M3 .. .it is that good!! (actually I lied ... I'd like better brakes haha )

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

Unbelievable. I am going to try one sedan tomorrow, I cannot believe that is the case. Do you know why? Is it the construction of the floor, or is the dashboard positioned higher?
Yes you are right about BMW performance. Its also unbelievable. Plus there is support in these seats, if you are less than 120kg.

Not sure what the reason is .. I've not investigated why the seating is simply lower in the sedan .. I believe it might be in the floor construction and not a dashboard thing - it is noticeably lower.

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

Lovely machine. I have only 3 problems with it. 1) Its too expensive, 2) it has been apparently sold out and 3) not sure I am a fan or orange. Never saw it in person, however, Alexk went there and says its amazing.

Agree on all but the last point - I LOVE the orange (it's almost like a statement to the Porsche GT3 RS!!)

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

Exactly. I just cannot believe that there is even not an option for an upgrade. Every brochure about the car that exists always has a picture of a car on a race track, and the thing cannot even cope with a mororway. I started to believe the problem might be in the cooling, so now I am considering doing some DIY on brake ducts. Noone seems to be producing kits for that, so I am still in a research phase. If you know anything about the subject, let me know. I know its not great for aerodinamics, but if i have to choose between going to Spa and drive with not ideal aerodynamics, and going to Spa with ideal aerodynamics and not being able to brake....I opt for the first choice.

You can buy the E92 M3 GT4 brake duct kit ... it's quite expensive though:



Check out these threads:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...gt4+brake+duct

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ght=brake+duct

Originally Posted by GTAStradale

So why dont you try to join us? I am sure it will be a mega fun event !

As already noted .. I am in New Zealand - you guys are lucky to have so many famous and nice tracks within reach distance to go and play on!!

I'll get there one day and beg for shotgun rides with one of you fellas!!