Brake pedal issues.

manos///3 · 20-06-2011, 03:56 PM

I tracked a csl with ap brakes front and rear and the pedal distance was very short and the feeling was too hard. This is what i want from my brakes.

I have Alcon csl cup kit on my car and the brake pedal isn't the same with Ap. I don't know why..I am using motul rbf 600 brake liquid and pagid rs29 pads.

Any ideas?

karbonkid · 20-06-2011, 04:36 PM

Alcons will give longer travel compares to APs. Im not sure what can be done here to be honest.

**DazBlackCSL** · 20-06-2011, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karbonkid

Alcons will give longer travel compares to APs. Im not sure what can be done here to be honest.

+1

= Sell Alcons, Buy AP -

3wheels3 · 20-06-2011, 05:21 PM

Could try RS14 or 15. IMO they have quite a bit more initial bite which may give you what you want, saying they do them for those calipers. Just an idea.

The Gorilla · 20-06-2011, 05:27 PM

Hi,

Has your master cylinder been bled
with a power bleeder just so
there is no air whatsoever in the system ?

Do you have a balanced set up, ie
front and rears or just fronts ?

If you have just fronts, then a 'balance valve'
to the rears might help,

If Brakes have been power bled then its-

Pedal Ratio V Brake Master cylinder size
V Caliper piston sizes V swept fluid volume.

I do not know if there is another BMW
Brake Master Cylinder which will fit
the E46 M3 Servo and is slightly smaller
size than the std M3/CSL ones,
so as to increase Brake Pedal pressure which should
in theory give the Alcons a stiffer pedal
feel.

Slight downside is that pedal pressure will have
to increase on the std fixed pedal ratio.
ie] more left foot pressure.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

shane@mbtech · 20-06-2011, 05:40 PM

The Alcon pedal feel is shit if I am honest. AP are far better.

The master cylinder needs changing, but as G man says, I dont know of a different one to sort this out.

Fitting a pedal box with correct sized cylinder will of course work, but major overkill in a road car.

I power bled mine in all manner of sequence, it was always the same.

But they work, so use them, they feel better for road use as they are not as snatchy as the AP, they also work great on track, but dont inspire as much confidence as the AP due to pedal feel/travel.

I have said this for a long time about the Alcons, people are slowly starting to see my point.

That said they are still far far better than stock set up for track use.

manos///3 · 20-06-2011, 11:07 PM

I have front/rear setup.

I was thinking the solution of pedal box with two master cylinders or one with two exit hoses, as i am using the car 99% for track. But i am not sure...

Alcon brakes are excellent on track.
Ap's pedal feeling is like drive a kart!

The Gorilla · 21-06-2011, 01:40 AM

Hi,

Manos///3- If you go with a Bias Pedal Box
or some type of dual cylinder set up then you
will have to loose the std Brake servo
which will effect pedal ratio/ pressure for
the ABS.

Remote servo ?

While you will be able to play around with
the master cylinder sizes, and pedal ratio,
its not without its own set of issues.

No free lunch.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

manos///3 · 21-06-2011, 10:09 AM

Gorilla without servo means that ABS should be working more often with less pedal pressure?

What are they do in motorsport world?

The Gorilla · 21-06-2011, 10:53 AM

Hi,

Mamos- The 'BMW MS Racing ABS' is
streets away from what you have
in your car.

The BMW MS ABS is around 8/9k if I remember
correctly.

It has variable settings for Modulation
etc.

To set up the std ABS system with
a bias pedal box arrangment and no servo
will not give a 'pedal feel' anything like
the AP's that is for sure !!!

I have never driven a M3 with Alcon Kit
but from what Lawsy and you are saying
its like there is more pedal Travel before
the bite/pedal resistance is felt ?

The std Servo / ABS system is very good
so why not fit the Brake Pedal assembly
from an Auto E46, stronger and better
pedal offset.

Then fit a Brake Bias Valve into the rear
brake line, mount the valve adjuster in the car,
centre console or whatever.

Then in the dry you can increase the front
bias which might assist with pedal feel/ response
as taking away some rear bias in the dry will
not alter very much, and then in the wet you can
give more rear bias, which is what you want
anyway.

200 or so Euros if you do it yourself.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

20-06-2011, 03:56 PM	#1
manos///3 S2 - Picking it up Join Date: May 2011 Location: Greece Posts: 42 Casino cash: $828	Brake pedal issues. I tracked a csl with ap brakes front and rear and the pedal distance was very short and the feeling was too hard. This is what i want from my brakes. I have Alcon csl cup kit on my car and the brake pedal isn't the same with Ap. I don't know why..I am using motul rbf 600 brake liquid and pagid rs29 pads. Any ideas?

20-06-2011, 04:36 PM	#2
karbonkid S6, Sport On, Traction Off Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sussex Posts: 1,912 Casino cash: $10231	Alcons will give longer travel compares to APs. Im not sure what can be done here to be honest. __________________

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20-06-2011, 05:21 PM	#4
3wheels3 S5, Sport Off, DSC M-track Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 773 Casino cash: $21189	Could try RS14 or 15. IMO they have quite a bit more initial bite which may give you what you want, saying they do them for those calipers. Just an idea.

20-06-2011, 05:27 PM	#5
The Gorilla S5, Sport Off, DSC M-track Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 740 Casino cash: $14401	Hi, Has your master cylinder been bled with a power bleeder just so there is no air whatsoever in the system ? Do you have a balanced set up, ie front and rears or just fronts ? If you have just fronts, then a 'balance valve' to the rears might help, If Brakes have been power bled then its- Pedal Ratio V Brake Master cylinder size V Caliper piston sizes V swept fluid volume. I do not know if there is another BMW Brake Master Cylinder which will fit the E46 M3 Servo and is slightly smaller size than the std M3/CSL ones, so as to increase Brake Pedal pressure which should in theory give the Alcons a stiffer pedal feel. Slight downside is that pedal pressure will have to increase on the std fixed pedal ratio. ie] more left foot pressure. Regards, The Gorilla.

20-06-2011, 05:40 PM	#6
shane@mbtech CSL Register Uber-poster! Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: warrington Posts: 5,419 Casino cash: $19783	The Alcon pedal feel is shit if I am honest. AP are far better. The master cylinder needs changing, but as G man says, I dont know of a different one to sort this out. Fitting a pedal box with correct sized cylinder will of course work, but major overkill in a road car. I power bled mine in all manner of sequence, it was always the same. But they work, so use them, they feel better for road use as they are not as snatchy as the AP, they also work great on track, but dont inspire as much confidence as the AP due to pedal feel/travel. I have said this for a long time about the Alcons, people are slowly starting to see my point. That said they are still far far better than stock set up for track use.

20-06-2011, 11:07 PM	#7
manos///3 S2 - Picking it up Join Date: May 2011 Location: Greece Posts: 42 Casino cash: $828	I have front/rear setup. I was thinking the solution of pedal box with two master cylinders or one with two exit hoses, as i am using the car 99% for track. But i am not sure... Alcon brakes are excellent on track. Ap's pedal feeling is like drive a kart!

21-06-2011, 01:40 AM	#8
The Gorilla S5, Sport Off, DSC M-track Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 740 Casino cash: $14401	Hi, Manos///3- If you go with a Bias Pedal Box or some type of dual cylinder set up then you will have to loose the std Brake servo which will effect pedal ratio/ pressure for the ABS. Remote servo ? While you will be able to play around with the master cylinder sizes, and pedal ratio, its not without its own set of issues. No free lunch. Regards, The Gorilla.

21-06-2011, 10:09 AM	#9
manos///3 S2 - Picking it up Join Date: May 2011 Location: Greece Posts: 42 Casino cash: $828	Gorilla without servo means that ABS should be working more often with less pedal pressure? What are they do in motorsport world?

21-06-2011, 10:53 AM	#10
The Gorilla S5, Sport Off, DSC M-track Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 740 Casino cash: $14401	Hi, Mamos- The 'BMW MS Racing ABS' is streets away from what you have in your car. The BMW MS ABS is around 8/9k if I remember correctly. It has variable settings for Modulation etc. To set up the std ABS system with a bias pedal box arrangment and no servo will not give a 'pedal feel' anything like the AP's that is for sure !!! I have never driven a M3 with Alcon Kit but from what Lawsy and you are saying its like there is more pedal Travel before the bite/pedal resistance is felt ? The std Servo / ABS system is very good so why not fit the Brake Pedal assembly from an Auto E46, stronger and better pedal offset. Then fit a Brake Bias Valve into the rear brake line, mount the valve adjuster in the car, centre console or whatever. Then in the dry you can increase the front bias which might assist with pedal feel/ response as taking away some rear bias in the dry will not alter very much, and then in the wet you can give more rear bias, which is what you want anyway. 200 or so Euros if you do it yourself. Regards, The Gorilla.