The definitive suspension thread

[Mike R]

Originally Posted by shimmy

Never used Kw but interestingly KW Clubsport are probably what you need. Full coilovers, work well, little maintenance if any.

I don't get on with Nitron and think they are still not 100% engineered for the car.

So why not tell us what you do have and what you think?

[Mike R]

Originally Posted by The Gorilla

Hi,

I think your going to wait a long time
for any serious replies in regard of
suspension etc.

Why ?

Those using ''out the box'' doing the odd Track day will
believe the car handles better on this
or that, yet the stock suspension set up correctly with
the addition of Camber plates and adjustable
ARB links, then the vast majoritymost of them would noit be able
to drive at 80/85% of its capabilities.

Move to a more progressive and say more serious suspension
set up where say many hours fetteling and switching
of settings and even spring rates has occured, with Caster,
and toe changes into the mis, combined with moving
items around for weight transfer ratios etc ARB changes
along with ARB settings, and very very few, if any,
are going to want to share that information for
the obvious reasons.

I have never been a subscriber that more expensive is
better, but what you do need is flexability ie] the ability
to be able to alter, point being is that if the std Sachs
Dampers were adjustable for low and high speed, and
the std Strut casing had the ablitly for Coilover sleeves
etc, then with a re-valve and spring change, add in some tenders
a set of Adjustable ARB drop links and camber mounts,
and for somebody that understands the basics then
unless your Hans Stuck, good useable gains can be made and
the orders for KW/Intrax/HR etc out the box with some
very limiting knobs on for E46's would decline.

Point being not many do.

Ring 'CSL Time' was a Press Car as such, so put on AP's
front and rear, Camber plates,well scrubbed Cups and
until you can get within circa 2 to 3 secs of that time, its not really
a suspension change holding back the Car is it ?

Regards,

The Gorilla.

I completely agree with everything you have said, hence why I was hoping for peeps to post up the set-ups they have and what they think. Many have changed set-ups (either spring rates or even manufacturers) due to being unhappy with what they had - it is this real world experience I am seeking, which could help me and others make better decisions and avoid having to go through the same development process.

[Mike R]

Originally Posted by trackm3

Mike, any good coilover will require rebuilding every 12months ! Have you ever put a set on a dyno after say just 1000 miles ? They are all over the place, so don't rule out Intrax.

I'm not building a race car, so I don't want something that is going to detract from the current well balanced compromise. That may be the case with Intrax, but that has not been my experience of quality suspension. There may be some drop off compared to new, but as stated, I'm not competing against other cars where every tenth counts, I just want something that will give a good ride / handling compromise at the 'ring and on the road and that isn't going to start knocking every few months.

The only signs of wear that the H&Rs are showing is some spring sag, now given how old they are, that is pretty good going. The damping may be way off what they were when new, but I have only experienced what they're like now (which feels compliant, but could do with a bit more roll control).

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

The other Big aspect is personal driving
styles, one likes what another dislikes and so
on.

I personally like a Car with Oversteer dialled
in at the start so the deeper in you go,
the more neutral it gets, others would hate it.

There never has been nor will there ever
be a Suspension for both worlds, Road and
Track, and the more adjustability your Track /Race
suspension has the more you start killing
it everytime you drive on the road, and nice
compliant road suspension wanders and rolls
way to much on Race Track Asphalt, where suspension loads
and lateral G Forces want to rip out the std bushings
as quickly as possible.

No free lunch.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[DazBlackCSL]

I'm no expert and most are not .. Hence always better to leave anything like suspension to the people that know.

So my experience with mine over a 4/5 year period was trial and error, started with a KW V3 kit way way back in the early days, fortunately for me I'm friends with the KW guys from my racing in the CSL cup season in 09 so they helped me with my road car set up all through those years.

To be honest Mitch (ex KW now was a gent and knew his onions)

V3 kit got exchanged for a clubsport kit after about 2 years, thought I needed something harder and more 'race' track focused to get quicker ! Learnt that's not how you do go quicker the expensive way !!

But that's part if the fun and learning curve I guess. So from clubsports I went to a bespoke built race set up, stupid really as I was racing and used the car daily, but again my reasons for this was out of curiosity and also using my road car on track day before test day to get a feel for the circuit and also as the the race car was running almost the same set up it gave me some guidelines (little I agree but everything helped as a novice racer)

So what I learned in those years was, no matter how many different set up's, countless changes of springs and rates and tweaking and three versions of kits, I was the quickest and happiest on the original V3 kit.

For what I needed the car for, as in it was a daily driver and for 09 a heavy tracked car, 3 ring trips a year and lots of miles on the road.

The V3 was good enough but also simple enough to tweak and was a good compromise as a slightly better kit than OEM and also not as harsh for the road.

If your looking for speed on track, lots of time behind the wheel and on the track of your choice to learn the corners etc is how you really get quicker and build your confidence, not teaching you to suck eggs at all just my experience of various suspension changes on a CSL over many years.

If I have another CSL will do V3 and brakes and spacers, mainly for overall look and the lack of fade on track and slightly more progressive solid feel on track that the V3 and AP kits give you.

Tuition with a really experienced racer is an eye opener, Sean Edwards jumped in my CSL back in 09 and spent a few days with me and fook me what he could do with my then Standard CSL was impressive, needless to say no matter what I had on the car or what I spent, Sean would of run rings round me in a std car with no mods.

All down to what you want out of the car and what your trying to achieve I guess, I'm glad I tried it for myself rather than just taking advice as we are all different and what works for one may not for another.

Keep suspension simple unless your an expert or one handy each time you go out as the set up is key to getting the best out of it and like it's been said this differs between tracks and peoples driving style and also what rubber you have on each corner.

I tried all the spring rates and different set ups, toe in, out etc etc over those years on track and off and I'm sooo glad I'm not in that vortex anymore as you always seem to be chasing your tail.

Fast forward to my year in the GT3 997, the only thing that made me quicker on track and more confident with the car was tuition with a Cup Car racer and ex rallycross driver, again all about seat time in car and track, GT3 was totally std but felt like a totally different car by the time I sold it.

[trackm3]

Originally Posted by Mike R

I'm not building a race car, so I don't want something that is going to detract from the current well balanced compromise. That may be the case with Intrax, but that has not been my experience of quality suspension. There may be some drop off compared to new, but as stated, I'm not competing against other cars where every tenth counts, I just want something that will give a good ride / handling compromise at the 'ring and on the road and that isn't going to start knocking every few months.

The only signs of wear that the H&Rs are showing is some spring sag, now given how old they are, that is pretty good going. The damping may be way off what they were when new, but I have only experienced what they're like now (which feels compliant, but could do with a bit more roll control).

Mike, you quoted this 'As we all know, the key to a fast Cesil is being able to carry more corner speed than almost anything else' This quote gives me the feeling you want something that performs well ? so don't rule out a proper fast track-race coilover just add a progressive spring and it will be a good road setup also ?

[shimmy]

Originally Posted by Mike R

So why not tell us what you do have and what you think?

Fuck off....you ruled mine out in your first post

You don't care.

[CraigMillwardCroft]

Originally Posted by shimmy

Fuck off....you ruled mine out in your first post

You don't care.

[Mike R]

Originally Posted by DazBlackCSL

I'm no expert and most are not .. Hence always better to leave anything like suspension to the people that know.

So my experience with mine over a 4/5 year period was trial and error, started with a KW V3 kit way way back in the early days, fortunately for me I'm friends with the KW guys from my racing in the CSL cup season in 09 so they helped me with my road car set up all through those years.

To be honest Mitch (ex KW now was a gent and knew his onions)

V3 kit got exchanged for a clubsport kit after about 2 years, thought I needed something harder and more 'race' track focused to get quicker ! Learnt that's not how you do go quicker the expensive way !!

But that's part if the fun and learning curve I guess. So from clubsports I went to a bespoke built race set up, stupid really as I was racing and used the car daily, but again my reasons for this was out of curiosity and also using my road car on track day before test day to get a feel for the circuit and also as the the race car was running almost the same set up it gave me some guidelines (little I agree but everything helped as a novice racer)

So what I learned in those years was, no matter how many different set up's, countless changes of springs and rates and tweaking and three versions of kits, I was the quickest and happiest on the original V3 kit.

For what I needed the car for, as in it was a daily driver and for 09 a heavy tracked car, 3 ring trips a year and lots of miles on the road.

The V3 was good enough but also simple enough to tweak and was a good compromise as a slightly better kit than OEM and also not as harsh for the road.

If your looking for speed on track, lots of time behind the wheel and on the track of your choice to learn the corners etc is how you really get quicker and build your confidence, not teaching you to suck eggs at all just my experience of various suspension changes on a CSL over many years.

If I have another CSL will do V3 and brakes and spacers, mainly for overall look and the lack of fade on track and slightly more progressive solid feel on track that the V3 and AP kits give you.

Tuition with a really experienced racer is an eye opener, Sean Edwards jumped in my CSL back in 09 and spent a few days with me and fook me what he could do with my then Standard CSL was impressive, needless to say no matter what I had on the car or what I spent, Sean would of run rings round me in a std car with no mods.

All down to what you want out of the car and what your trying to achieve I guess, I'm glad I tried it for myself rather than just taking advice as we are all different and what works for one may not for another.

Keep suspension simple unless your an expert or one handy each time you go out as the set up is key to getting the best out of it and like it's been said this differs between tracks and peoples driving style and also what rubber you have on each corner.

I tried all the spring rates and different set ups, toe in, out etc etc over those years on track and off and I'm sooo glad I'm not in that vortex anymore as you always seem to be chasing your tail.

Fast forward to my year in the GT3 997, the only thing that made me quicker on track and more confident with the car was tuition with a Cup Car racer and ex rallycross driver, again all about seat time in car and track, GT3 was totally std but felt like a totally different car by the time I sold it.

Hi Daz,
That is exactly the kind of real world experience I was seeking, many thanks for taking the time to write all that .

[glendog74]

Like Dazza above, I have tried a couple of setups by trial and error whilst learning the car more through track days and trips to the Nürburgring.

Initially using the standard car Sachs suspension on road and my early Ring driving, I found it perfect for my ability at that time.

However, as my speed on track increased I was finding the lack of adjustment with the OEM suspension limiting and thus fitted Turner adjustable top mounts which certainly helped reduce tyre wear resulting from track driving. To be fair this setup is probably all most would ever need for road/track use as The Primate mentions although I did find I was pushing the roll limits of the car on certain tracks such as Spa.

Ultimately I wanted a step up in suspension performance to retain better car body control so like Dazza opted for the KW Clubsport setup in 2009. I have used this setup since and have to say it is perfect for me with a little tweak between road and track setting being the only fiddling required. I believe the latest version has an easy single adjuster rather than the faff with Allen keys which I have with my kit.

The great thing about the KW Clubsport setup apart from the improvement over OEM is that they adopt the same strut/spring arrangement at the rear rather than the coil overs of other kits and the have the added bonus of lowering the car a little over OEM (which sits too high aesthetically IMHO).

I have been totally happy with my KWs and other CSLR members and many passengers have commented on how well the car rides when on track.