Noble M12 GT0-3R vs CSL

[_Nathan_]

Put it this way there are posts on the web from people with nearly 500 bhp/ton celebrating lap times miles slower than your CSL times Shim...

[Funkster]

I thought I better get in on this one as I'm a new owner to the Csl but still have a 3R tucked in the garage.

I've done less than 700 miles in the csl so far and that includes a 400 mile trip home from picking it up so a bit early to compare too much but here goes.

The Noble can be a tender beast in standard form although once you get your hands dirty and do the neccessary upgrades they can be extremley reliable. In 3 1/2 Years of ownership the only issue Iv'e had is a broken fifth gear which in itself is not a major bank raider if your prepared to get handy with the spanners but that was when I decided to go down the strenghthening/upgrade route which did raid the bank.

She currently sits at 510 brake and just over 480lb torquies which on the road feels nother short of amazing. I'm still to come up against anything that can get near it in a straight line and it's amazing the amount of grip it creates and how well it will put down the power when the 888's have some heat into them but when there cold or theres a little unoticed damp around it can be nothing short of bloody scary.
The sense of occasion when driving is great and the notice other people take of it is amazing (although not my thing, would rather keep under the radar really)
On track I really struggle to get comfortable and that makes my lap times suffer, Im quite a tall chap in the body and when Iv'e got the helmet on I just about have to lay down in the seat with the arms at full stretch to stop my head being squashed against the roof and this shows.

Me and a friend started doing trackdays in an old E36 328i coupe which we bought for £1500 just over 3 years ago and over that period have done the neccesary upgrades as things have appeared on Ebay to the stage that we have started racing this year in the Trackday Trophy. Apart from the usual Manifold conversion and an induction kit the engine is in standard form and kicks out a whopping 204 brake but my fastest lap at snetterton in the first race of the season was only 6 seconds slower than my fastest in the Noble.
Dont get me wrong the Track car is setup rock solid and plenty of camber added to suit and would be almost undrivable on a B road but this just shows how fast a decent set-up track slag can be and having the lower power just makes it so easy to drive.
The Noble can really bite you in the ass If your not careful and with my comfort and ability I'm probably not taking it anywhere near its possible limits unlike the beemer.
The unreliablilty thing is deffo there with a standard car but I have friends who have done a good few thousand miles on track without any issues.
The thing that nags in the back of my mind is that if the Noble does go wrong there is no Comprehensive warranty and I know it will be me laying under it fixing it which was a major factor when deciding to get a Csl with a warranty.
The original plan was to sell the Noble and move on to a GT3 but the worry of depreciation and Not wanting to part with the Noble after putting so much time and effort into making it what it is was the deciding factor on getting a Csl also.

All in all I reckon a fairly well sorted 3R with a driver that really knows what he's doing should murder a Csl on track but the forgiving nature of the beemers should make the average joe very close indeed.

I'm not trying to say either is better than the other because I obviously have a love for each of them but they both have somthing very special.

All in my opinion of course.

Cheers Matty.

[shimmy]

Originally Posted by Funkster

.
. Apart from the usual Manifold conversion and an induction kit the engine is in standard form and kicks out a whopping 204 brake but my fastest lap at snetterton in the first race of the season was only 6 seconds slower than my fastest in the Noble.
Cheers Matty.

Matty, great to hear another opinion and one thats relevant

Out of interest what were the two lap times of the two cars, and how easy is it to get the best out of the a noble on track?

[Funkster]

Hi shim
I managed a 2.21 dead in the 328 which ended up being the fastest lap in our class........ If only we would of put enough bloody fuel in the thing we may of got on the podium.
The Noble was a 2.15 but as already said, I'm sure there's a lot more in the car with someone than can pedal it a tad better.

Both times on the new track of course !

Not sure what ya on about with the EBay thing ?

[shimmy]

Originally Posted by Funkster

Hi shim

Not sure what ya on about with the EBay thing ?

EFA



I'd be really interested to see how you get on with the CSL at Snett 300. I've always had a hankering after a Noble, but always thought it would be a real handful

510bhp, but what's the weight?

[_Nathan_]

I'd be very surprised if the CSL was slower, despite having something like 220 bhp / ton less which brings me back to my previous point about them not actually being that quick round a lap in the hands of most people. I think that having that much torque on hand when the turbos spool up makes them very difficult to get on the power early enough coming out of a corner to make the most of the chassis.

The chassis is great (if a bit agricultural) but I imagine in most peoples hands (certainly mine) they'd be miles faster round a lap and more reliable if it were fitted with a decent NA engine, like an s54 or GT3 engine or even a 300bhp NA version of the V6 in there.

I was instantly quicker round a lap in the CSL, within a week of ownership I'd done 2 trackdays back to back on a bank holiday friday and monday, would've never done that in the Noble due to the TLC required, was quicker in the CSL straight away too, partly through the layout being more forgiving of a rubbish driver, partly through the NA engine being easier to use on track and partly through not worrying about it breaking.

They are basically a pre made kit car and if you go in to ownership knowing that I expect you'll love it, it was sold to me as a completely sorted low volume production car and it is safe to say I had more niggles than I was expecting based upon the sales patter. Of the first 12 months I owed it the car was back at the factory for 5 months. It took 3 days of ownership before the car broke to the point where it couldn't be driven and was collected by the factory...

Having to pay to fix a dangerous design flaw which would result in a throttle stuck wide open was a nice touch too when you'd spend over £50k.

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?not...19766808052478

For a B road blast or few laps of a circuit they are brilliant, as an ownership proposition not for me and I am still in contact with others who have moved on to properly built cars that think the same.

[Funkster]

Originally Posted by shimmy

EFA



I'd be really interested to see how you get on with the CSL at Snett 300. I've always had a hankering after a Noble, but always thought it would be a real handful

510bhp, but what's the weight?

Just around 1100 with, until I get in
Nobles are great if you are preppared to get involved with preventitive maintenence, you really have to if your going to track one regular.
It's not the type of car for someone with no mechanical knowledge who's only ever going to use a garage for any work needed.

This is the big difference between them and a beemer.

It's surprising though peoples reactions when you first plant the throttle, the resounding result on most people is to just laugh
The standard 3R 0 - 60 was published at 3.7 but Road and track tested it at 3.3 and thats with 340 ish brake. Not sure the box could stand too much of that though.

Looking forward to really getting to grips with the Csl and seeing how it compares but I'm sure already that with me driving the two cars all that extra power of the Noble isn't going to make a lot of difference on track because of the confidence with the Csl.

I already believe that on one of our lovely Norfolk 'B' roads I will be quicker in the Csl as it's not trying so hard to spit me in the hedge.

Matty.

[shimmy]

Originally Posted by Funkster

Just around 1100 with, until I get in
Nobles are great if you are preppared to get involved with preventitive maintenence, you really have to if your going to track one regular.
It's not the type of car for someone with no mechanical knowledge who's only ever going to use a garage for any work needed.

This is the big difference between them and a beemer.

It's surprising though peoples reactions when you first plant the throttle, the resounding result on most people is to just laugh
The standard 3R 0 - 60 was published at 3.7 but Road and track tested it at 3.3 and thats with 340 ish brake. Not sure the box could stand too much of that though.

Looking forward to really getting to grips with the Csl and seeing how it compares but I'm sure already that with me driving the two cars all that extra power of the Noble isn't going to make a lot of difference on track because of the confidence with the Csl.

I already believe that on one of our lovely Norfolk 'B' roads I will be quicker in the Csl as it's not trying so hard to spit me in the hedge.

Matty.

Matty, one day I'll sit in one a feel the bhp! What price do they go for stock second hand?

I think at Snett you'll soon find a mere 360bhp and 1500kg rewarding, and you shouldnt have too many problems bettering the 2m15s in the Noble I think. (by some margin) which I find very strange bearing in mind you are talking about a car with DOUBLE the power to weight ratio

[conleth m3]

i've had 2 nobles, a gto3 with open diff, trackday sump and grooved aps up front. tracked it lots, never really let me down but always had big bills to pay for the upkeep. quick car.

then had a track prep'd m400, standard engine wise so probably about 400bhp, grooved aps all round, singleway adj nitrons along with some other bits. did loads of trackdays in that. cost a fookin fortune in upkeep. let me down and had to get recovered 3 times in 3 yrs.
1. engine blew due to some previous owner not topping up oil. cost - £10k
2. alternator belt shredded when turned on aircon and couldn't source one. cost - £15.50
3. clutch went at end of croft trackday after leaving car unused for a few months which they dont like. cost - £2k

that was the main reason i went for csl - so i could do trackdays and not have to worry too much about it breaking. saying that mine has had a misfire and been pinking recently and a compression test shows values down on 4 and 5 so headgasket is the main suspect at the minute. done 54k miles.

m400 was easy to drive quickly in my opinion, always found it very planted, predictable and could balance it beautifully on the throttle. it was faster than i am at the minute in the csl but still learning to drive the car on track properly, not done enough trackdays in it yet. tuition is planned next time out. loved the car, would probably do it again as so much fun, but csl definitely is awesome

having known/spoken to quite a few owners (matty included ) some people have only driven them on the road and had a nightmare time with breakdowns, some have tracked them plenty and had minimal probs. think that inconsistency goes with a low volume sports car like the noble.

hth

conleth

for old times sake

[DIB17]

I am capable of doing work on one myself - having no warranty and the potential for a massive outlay is off putting though - nice to have the BMW warranty for piece of mind...as long as they pay out!

I would have expected them to be miles quicker around a track than a CSL and I thought they would be easy to drive near the limit as everyone praises what a good handling and sorted car they are!