CSL vs. 996 GT3

[Ade]

Originally Posted by m33ufo

Will do....I've had 3 Boxsters (986, 987S and 987S 3.4) and a 996 C2 in the past so I know how the cars feel but it's probably like comparing an M3 with a CSL.

There is a very significant difference between the GT3 and a normal 911 - more so than the difference between the M3 and CSL. Drivetrain, engine, suspension, arms, steering, etc is all completely different on the GT3 compared to the standard 911. Only the basic tub, interior, and chassis remains the same.

Also, be aware that maintenance of a 6-10 year old GT3 where things start going wrong is not going to be cheap and will make a BMW warrantied CSL look like a bargain. Around the 50k mile mark, there are a lot of less obvious items that start getting worn out needing replacement. Bushes, driveshafts, clutches, diffs, engine mounts, synchros, leaking dampers start getting tired. It is also highly unlikely that the 6GT3 will be covered by the [now ridiculous] Porsche extended warranty meaning you better have the wallet to fund the addiction. It's not surprising that there has been a significant turnover of GT3s this year in particular compared to the previous 2-3 years when most of the 996 GT3s were around the 20-40k mile mark. Just look at the number of newbie 996GT3 owners showing up on the various Porsche forums this year... They are all excited and rightfully so, but the reality is that compared to a new 996 or 997GT3, the current crop of cars are getting tired, expensive to maintain, and are being superceded by newer/faster/more desirable cars. You are, in truth, buying the dream and badge. Be very careful in buying... there are some real dogs out there lacking the maintenance required to keep them in top form.

Keep in mind that the new 3.8L 997GT3 mk2 just released has, imho, moved the game on more than any previous post-Mk1 6GT3. Even more serious a car, but it has genuine everyday usability AND the top end track manners to distance itself from the previous 3.6L GT3 that stayed top of the tree for the past 10 years. Porsche play a very clever game and evolution is the constant in the Porsche Arms Race.

[NZ_M3]

Originally Posted by ducade

There is a very significant difference between the GT3 and a normal 911 - more so than the difference between the M3 and CSL. Drivetrain, engine, suspension, arms, steering, etc is all completely different on the GT3 compared to the standard 911. Only the basic tub, interior, and chassis remains the same.

I do believe the GT3 uses the 911 C4 chassis for more regidity?

[Ade]

Originally Posted by NZ_M3

I do believe the GT3 uses the 911 C4 chassis for more regidity?

Yes, that's true and why the front boot is smaller compared to other 2wd 996s as the C4 tub allowed space for the front differential that imtrudes into the front boot space. Early Mk1 GT3s had additional welding along certain seams to further increase strength. It was the most reliable GT3 made to date, and it also had things like a 3rd balancer shaft unlike the Mk2 onwards.

From the mk2 996Gt3 onwards, it was a mass produced car made on the same production line at Zuffenhausen as normal 911s. The mk1 6Gt3 was hand made at the old motorsport factory at Weissach alongside the GT3R, GT3 RS (Motorsport, not the common GT3 RS) and RSR. With the mass production of the Mk2 came a slight number of problems introduced through less strict QC on the production line. Sadly, the 997 GT3 is now just another mass produced vehicle and suffers from a high percentage of engine problems (mostly oil leaks) because of the crap QC Totally unacceptable imho in a 80-100k car.

[spanner]

Originally Posted by m33ufo

Actually it's the opposite for me, I think the Mk1 front end looks much more dated than the Mk2.

I agree - I think the mk2 looks loads better than the mk1

[spanner]

Originally Posted by m33ufo

I don't need rear seats, in fact just the 1 would do. Should I buy a single seater?

I suppose this means I'll have to test drive the GT3. The Cobalt car in one of the links at the start of the thread is just a few miles from my office so I'll pop in a give it a spin. I'm sure I won't get the full effect but it will be a start.

tbh - if you are after a track car then yes!

I have a csl rather than a porker because it is my main car and I need rear seats for the kids when I need to take them somewhere.

The main purpose of the car is for Euro trips, Spa, Ring etc. I do the odd UK track day with it.

Absolutely nothing that weighs 1.4 tons can compare to a radical, caterham, atom, lotus 211 etc. as a track toy.

I have never tried a single seater by I rate caterhams about as highly as anything as a pure toy. A far purer, harder hit than a Porsche or a csl could ever give.

Don't get me wrong, the csl & GT3's are awesome on track and I rate them very highly. They are immensly capable for what they are. But they will always be barges due to their weight! Also very expensive to run regularly on track compared to a lighweight nail.

[Ade]

Originally Posted by spanner

Don't get me wrong, the csl & GT3's are awesome on track and I rate them very highly. They are immensly capable for what they are. But they will always be barges due to their weight! Also very expensive to run regularly on track compared to a lighweight nail.

True on the cost. BUT Caterfields/Atoms etc are a PITA for anything other than dry and sunny trackdays within an hour of home. Which pretty much rules out Euro trips. Unless you wanted to trailer... in which case it's still a PITA.

If I wanted the flies in the teeth experience, then I'd stick to 2 wheels which gives even greater thrills than 4 wheels ever could. Caterfields give you less thrills than bikes, with all the downsides of cars (roadspace etc), and none of the upsides...

[spanner]

Originally Posted by ducade

True on the cost. BUT Caterfields/Atoms etc are a PITA for anything other than dry and sunny trackdays within an hour of home. Which pretty much rules out Euro trips. Unless you wanted to trailer... in which case it's still a PITA.

If I wanted the flies in the teeth experience, then I'd stick to 2 wheels which gives even greater thrills than 4 wheels ever could. Caterfields give you less thrills than bikes, with all the downsides of cars (roadspace etc), and none of the upsides...

Agreed to a degree - a bike is more fun on the road but I have completely given up on going quick on the roads, well, properly quick anyway!

I trailered to the ring a few times & yes, it became a complete PITA hence the csl to now do that job.

I completely disagree on the dry & sunny bit though, I used to pray for rain when I was going somewhere in the caterham or elise. I am much more wary of the weather these days running a csl on cups!

The trailering to uk events could be a bit of a faff but again, I tend to take 2 sets of wheels / tyres with the csl too which is at least as much of a pain.

The reality is, a barge can't entertain like a dedicated lightweight toy on track, whatever the weather.

a little caveat to say that I did once not enjoy myself at the ring in really torrential rain in a screenless caterham and I ended up using my tow barge for the rest of the day instead! But I also wouldn't have been out on cups at the time either!

[Ade]

I'm really debating the whole Cups thing on the CSL given the inclement weather we so often get, although this year has proven to be a fine year for Cups!

It was just as much fun (perhaps even more!) on a torrential half day at Snetterton on PZero Neros (I'd normally run PS2s) as I had on Cups when it was dry.

But yes, Caterfields are massive fun.

[m33ufo]

I'd actually almost completed a deal on a new Lotus 2-11 a few weeks ago and then realised that I wouldn't be able to get it into my garage without grazing the front splitter on entering. They only have 90mm ground clearance and my drive runs slightly downward to my garage - just enough to be a problem! Totally fantastic cars to drive.

[Ade]

Originally Posted by m33ufo

I'd actually almost completed a deal on a new Lotus 2-11 a few weeks ago and then realised that I wouldn't be able to get it into my garage without grazing the front splitter on entering. They only have 90mm ground clearance and my drive runs slightly downward to my garage - just enough to be a problem! Totally fantastic cars to drive.

Just beware, IIRC that's the same clearance as my old GT3 had with MMKWs on it. It's not so much the height, it's also the distance from the front to the wheels that creates the max angle of attack!