Worried with those subframe stories
 

Hello,

I hope everyone is doing well.

A lot of those subframe stories have made me quite worried.

It sometimes even makes consider selling my CSL.

The BMW "specialists" in my area have never heard of it - just like the guys in Munich actually...

I have heard that BMW doesn't recommend the foam injections anymore.

Some say that this procedure was just supposed to delay the problem in order to pass the 10-year goodwill repair, but that it does not solve the problem.

My car gets regularly checked (at each inspection), but I am wondering if I could do any preventive work.

It seems that the cars are harder to repair once the foam has been injected.

Thank you for your advice and kind regards,
Alex

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...psa83b6ce8.jpg

Hi Alex,

You could get the aftermarket reinforcement plate kit fitted as a precautionary measure. It's quite expensive though, around £1000 for us to do it. I would say though, if yours has not cracked by now, there's a good chance it wont.
I have seen them crack in 3 different places, so make sure you get it checked thoroughly by someone who is familiar with the issue.
If you need to know which areas to check, let me know and I will take some photos of a car at work and upload them on here.

Hi James,

Many thanks for your precious advice.

If you were not that far from where I live, I would have taken my car to you.

I am sure there are some detailled pictures on where to look for the cracks, but if you don't mind, I would be grateful if you posted some.

The guys here in Geneva don't really seem aware of the issue.

I often drive the car without the radio on and I'm always trying to listen to any suspicious noises. It seems fine so far...

I'll pray that it doesn't hapen to mine as I am not too keen on the foam injection.

Again, many thanks for your help.

Kind regards,
Alex

Alex, I went with both the reinforcement plates and the foam injection as a purely precationary measure. With no cracks found and the 10 year period from BMW running out I decided it was worth doing for my peace of mind, as my CSL is a keeper long-term I think

Hi Leins,

I remember talking to you about this at the bar of the hotel in Munich.

The ideal would be to find a competent garage to do it either here in Switzerland or even in Germany.

Many thanks,
Alex

Can't advise on Germany I'm afraid, but I'd be very surprised if there aren't some good indepedent garages there who have done a few CSLs before. There must surely be a demand for it I would have thought?

There might be some specialists, but the BMW dealers in my area don't really put me in confidence when it's something other than their regular business.

Rear floor
 

Alx,

Have you tried writing to BMW Switzerland to ask about the well known rear floor issue? THey might help you remind your dealer of the fault and assist you getting it rectified or inspected properly?

Good Luck
PP

As per BMW Switzerland...
- There was never ever a problem with the subframe of the E46 M3 and E46 M3 CSL.
- There was never a CSL in the world that has been repaired.
- If your BMW was ever on a track (even for BMW driver training), whatever warranty you had (even if the car is 1 month old) it gets terminated immediately.

PS: here we have 3 years factory warranty and then you are on your own ;)

i guess they have decided that the chance a legal case succeeding is very low so are denying it all.

have you tried the BmW techical repair paperwork that is issued to solve the problem

As AlexK says, they have never heard of it here.

The technical papers state models until February 2000 if I remember correctly, so they will just ignore it.

I have been put in contact with a guy that owns a small garage who is a BMW specialist (and a big CSL fan).

He did mention that it was quite a rare problem. He has client who owns a CSL with 40'000 km of hard track driving and the car is flawless.

He said that as a preventive work, we could install PowerFlex bushes.

He did not mention the foam injections though.

I might take my car there for the next service.

Thank you again,

Alex

alx

sounds like that guy doesnt understand either

Thank you Shimmy.

So the best thing would be the foam injection + the reinforcement kit like this http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-91...ement-kit.aspx ?

Hi Alex (OP Alex that is)

Where abouts are you? Before you go ahead with the plate kit, I would wait for the photos from Monkey, and have the floor thoroughly checked by someone who knows what to look for. The cracks on the LH tend to be more visible, you can get a small camera in through stabiliser bar bracket to take a photo. Those on the RHS (for me at least) were not visible till the floor was removed. You need to get in there with a probe camera to have a chance of seeing them, and the the wax and dirt on the surface would have to be cleaned off. I just put some updated info on my repair here.

You are right that there appears to be less acknowledgement of the problem in other countries compared to the UK. When I was trying to get my (UK) CSL done in Germany I asked at M directly (through some friends that work there) if they could recommend a Garage in sthn Germany experienced with the repair. To my surprise they claimed that the cracks never happen on any late model E46s/M3s, only on the very early 98/99 std E46s. I laughed and explained that every second car with an SMG in having the floor replaced, to which they were sceptical. I really wonder how many of the goodwill claim statistics filter through to the engineers responsible for issuing the repair guidelines, and if (as you hinted at) it is still the correct repair method long term. i.e., is a replaced-and-foam-filled-floor only going to crack again in a few years?

If you read German M3 forums it seems some people have had the repair done by BMW under goodwill / kulanz. When asking in Switzerland, try to differentiate between body warranty and goodwill. AFAIK goodwill is 10yrs worldwide, and that is how everyone gets the repair done. The 3yr factory warranty you mention should be irrelevant. I don't think anyone in the UK ever had more that a 3yr base warranty without paying for it. There is a 6 or 12 years on body corrosion depending on if it is an 03 or 04 car. Many 03 models have been repaired under goodwill between 6 and 10 years age for example. I suspect you need to push harder / ask the right person. Print out the repair guidelines, and go to a bodyshop with pics of the damage. Obviously remove any go faster bits, and you never went on track if asked!

Anyway, if you manage to find cracks, and are considering trying to get it fixed in Germany feel free to PM me for some garages. I did quite a bit of enquiring before ultimately getting it done in the UK.

Agreed. I don't think poweflex bushes will help, and I am sceptical of the reinforcement kit, certainly not without the foam injection.

I honestly think a car that has only been on track will be less likely to have a cracked floor than a car that has been only on the road. To me it's the cold low rev changes typical of everyday driving that send a jolt through the drive line that loads the 3 diff bushes to the limit of their progression which in turn loads the subframe bushes and floor. Well, that and sharp bumps like those from potholes. Maybe the problem is more known in the UK because the roads are so unbelievably shit? The high rev changes that you can achieve on track tend to be crisp and smooth. Anyway, I digress, thoughts are irrelevant, BMW want to hear that it hasn't been on track, so that's what you tell em.

Hi JBird,

Many thanks for your precious help.

I live in Geneva in Switzerland.

I don't think I will do anything before the spring.

My car had an Oilservice in July of this year at my local BMW garage and the guys inspected the chassis. Apparently no cracks were found.

It's not that I totally trust them, but I'm a bit relieved.

I am hesitating on doing the preventive work (foam only?) or leave it as it is and have it checked at each service.

Thank you again!
Alex

Ok Alx, but be wary of the 10yrs goodwill, just in case that is possible to make use of in Switzerland.

I'd still go to an indy sooner rather than later and get your car on a ramp and look for yourself. Good vid here from Reddish motorsport describing how to identify the initial cracks. For the LHS you can even see it with the car on a normal jack and the LH wheel off. Really need to know where to look though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaTYBaMpUtE

You'd be surprised how close U are to the truth :whistle:

Thank you JBird.

I took my car to a body shop earlier this year to repaint the wheels and the front bumper and I also asked him to check the chassis.

He told me that it was fine.

My car is from July 2003, so it's out of the 10 years goodwill anyway.

Cheers,
Alex

There is no 10yr goodwill in Switzerland...

'You are right that there appears to be less acknowledgement of the problem in other countries compared to the UK'

Probably because our roads are so crap!

I've heard a few people mention recently that they think its the bushes that are causing the cracks. That could be true of the crack at the front right rear subframe bush, but what about the cracked seam in the lower inner arch? Or the floor pan at the front of the spare wheel well area? I dont think so personally.

I've used both the Turner motorsport repair kit, & the Reddish Motorsport kit. Reddish one a lot better. There is also the option of cutting open the chassis inside the car, just behind the rear seats. The spot welds are then visible which split, so these are welded. Unfortunately you do end up with a couple of welded plates in the boot, only visible if you lift the carpet.

Sorry Alex, been very busy today and not had an M3 in. I may have some endoscope shots saved at work, I'll see if I can find them tomorrow.

Hi James,

No problem, thank you again for your help! :)

I'm not really in a hurry, I was just wondering what I could do as a preventive work as this spoils the pleasure of ownership a bit.

So before I make an irreparable mistake, like selling the CSL during the winter, I was wondering what I could do.

Kind regards,
Alex

Hi,

Quote- '''You are right that there appears to be less acknowledgement of the problem in other countries compared to the UK'

Perculiar statement given that it was a
Multipile Class Action by owners in the
States that kicked this all off.

The problem is a piss poor design made worse
by the fact that even the BMW remeadies are
aimed at recitfying the symptoms not the
cause.

I would not be at all surprised to see some
of the BMW ''fixes'' starting to unravel in
a few more years, maybe sooner.

The 10 year window has fuck all to do with fixing it,
its BMW's way of saying, your car, your fucking problem,
were now all done on that.

Who ever thought that mounting a load bearing
torque absorbing rear subframe, itself subjected
to high loads and lateral forces, on four mount
points all on the same plane without any chassis dowels
into the securing bushes was a clever design, should never be allowed
to design anything again, but to compound the issue by
elongating one of the bush holes to facilatate
subframe fixing, instead of moving complant bushes,
to facilitate bolt fixing and assist with absorbing
load, they should be shot.

Christ even Merc 190's have chassis dowels fitting into the
rear subframe bush to prevent 'sawing' stresses ripping
at the mount points and surrounding sheet etc.
All the laod and movement is absorbed by the bush,
the bush wear out and are replaced, BUT the mounting
points never move !!!
They were designed in 1983 and BMW has just
started to emulate that design in the E90 series etc.

As for ripping out distorted boot floors and re-welding
in new ones, well ye olde Roost monster will be having
a field day, even more so with anything synthetic filling
the boot floor skin voids, as any fucking retard knows
that when a cold surface, the boot floor skin meets a warm surface,
the expoxy filler or whatever, then hey presto, its called condensation and
guess what its water, and water on internally welded metal makes for
a loverly feeding ground for the Roost monster.

And they reckon I am on drugs, fuck me, well at least mine
in part are working some.

The fact remains the E46 Rear subframe fixing design
is kinder garten design at its very worst, its nothing to
do with the boot floor not being strong enough, or
to many launches in this gear or that gear, its the
very basic fact that any rear subframe should have
securing dowels as part of the chassis that fit into the
bushes on the subframe, or the back rear Bushes should
have been on a different plane to the front ones in
the very least, to counter any subframe movement which ideally should
be absorbed by the bush not by the the 4 H/T bolts ripping
at the sheet metal ala the BMW design, made worse
by the elongated hole.

But hey as the AD says ''Joy''.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Danny,
Do you know if the replacement floor sections have been redesigned with the dowels, or are they the exact same?

Looking at the photos of the new section that Mark posted up, I am unsure of the differences?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/07...ps0a299803.jpg

Bang On, 100% Nail on the head - an inherent design fault with the E46 chassis!
This should have been rectified before continuing production as it was known to exist before 2003.
Yet production remained unchanged, except for the CSL where if anything the likelihood of the defect occurring was enhanced. :(
The term 'Professional Negligence' springs to mind! :whistle:

So now that mine is cracked and sitting in my garage while I decide the best route for repair what's the thoughts?
I'm totally in agreement that the new floor fix and resin injection will come back in years to bite in one way or another.

Would there Be a way to tie these mounts into some sort of rear strut brace to spread the load a little?

Concern would be loosing all the boot space in place of steel tubes as for me part of the CSL's appeal is that it has a usuable boot (in the dry obviously) :whistle:
From the rear struts forward would be ok though.

Then there is the repair plates. Again its into welding and heat, condensation, internal corrosion etc etc and at the end of the day will this actually stop it happening again or will it just rip out a bigger chunk of metal?

I think the load / movement needs to be absorbed and spread through the car rather than just the boot floor. Just a case of how?

I'm in a position now to try and only want to be doing this once.
Discussions and opinions please?

I saw some pictures of the result of the strengthening, where it just did as you said and ripped even more of the floor apart, but I can't remember where I saw them. It was shocking how bad it was though :smt120 !

Given that we are where we are, i.e., love theses cars but the feckers keep cracking, and that BMW offer a "fix" that we either; can get but are sceptical of, don't want, or, as in the Swiss guys situation, can't get, what does someone like Alx do?

Is a reinforcement plate such as the Reddish kit a bearable (no pun intended) comprimise? I'd have thought yes, but only with a structural foam intection to distrubute the load more softly through the plates into the body. Structural foam in itself is a good idea, the sandwich structure formed offers excelent properties, but only an option if it lasts and does not promote corrosion. When used in OEM design from the onset, the car body gets properly dipped in for corrosion protection, something we don't have the benifit of.

Is the foam itself going lead to that more corrosion? Maybe a little, but i'd have thought the main issue is the new welds them self / areas of the body where the original factory protection coat has been disturbed. i.e, foam or no foam, condensation will eventually get in an rust will start. If so, is enough being done in either the BMW cut-out-your floor method, or Reddish reinforcement plate method to corrosion protect welds / exposed metal on both sides of the weld?

Those who have had the BMW goodwill fix do have a life time guarentee, but I think we'd rather not ever have to use it.

Hi,

I finally had aome information from my local BMW garage.

Thet say that they can do the foam injection as a prevention, but they can't garantee that the cracks will not appear.

The thing is I don't really trust them...

In that case alex, i'd also not trust their insp where they sait it wasn't cracked. If your going to get it foam filled, get a second opinion first. Foam filling a cracked floor then trying to fix / patch cracks afterwards would be a disaster. Best, check yourself. I was told mine was fine, then Gareth found a crack in 10 sec. Need to knowcwhere to look.

This may help you locate them - here are photos of the cracks on my car that Gareth took for the warranty work to be done.

FYI mine was checked as follows:
November 2012:
No cracks

June 2013:
No cracks

September 2013:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/07...ps5a848233.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/07...psf1ab8a40.jpg

Yes, I agree with you JBird.

I'm quite upset with BMW at the moment...

On top of their recent ugly designs and turbo-engine philosopy, they handled this problem quite badly.

I'm sometines leaning to sell my beloved CSL I confess...

Wow, that's impressive!

Thank you for the pictures Mike!

Call them cracks !! Check these out on a car thats been driven by Miss Daisy all her life !

few more..

Final one

BMW are having a fookin laugh saying that this doesnt happen and denying it in Germany ..then coming up with Technical Bulletins and stupid crazy foam fixes ... I may write a letter to them and say Im going to drive around in it until the floor gives way and kills me !:hahaha: ... then I will sue them :thumbs:

There speaks a man on a mission :hahaha:

They can't deny that the problem exists as they issued a worldwide memo to all Dealerships in 2003, advising them of what would be required to undertake their preferred fix eg. Plates and 2 pack Poly?Filler! :(

Did BMW suggest plates in the memo? My understanding is that the BMW fix is to replace the floor, and the option of the epoxy resin injection on one side

I've heard that the new floor they put in is the same as the original E46 M3 convertible one which is stronger. No idea if this is true though...

There is only one part number for M3 E46s.
http://mfans2.com/parts/catalog/41117000246/