Elms subframe crack

[thrashermax]

My first contact with Elms today, spoke to Emma. Very impressed, I called and asked for Emma or Gareth, they replied 'do you have a CSL' straight away!

Car is going there for confirmation/photos of the cracked floor.

After the car being mistreated by one dealer it's going to be nice to get it pampered and looked after by Elms!

[Straightsix]

Anyone know at what mileages CSLs develop cracks or does it just depend on how is driven ?

[Bounce]

Anyone know at what mileages CSLs develop cracks or does it just depend on how is driven ?Could be anytime.

[HFLagos]

Mine was going in to Elms this weekend for its subframe, delayed a week as the bodyshop is max'd out and running behind.

Anyone with a CSL who hasn't had their subframe checked recently or is waiting till it gets serviced next should get in to a BMW dealer soon as the 10yr window for goodwill repairs will be running out for "some" cars this year. (Think its 12yrs for 04 cars ??)

[portlandgrey]

I'd get it checked sooner rather than later.

The repair is NOT done under the corrosion warranty or any extended warranty, but BMW Goodwill, meaning BMW could stop free repairs (or change the qualifying criteria) at anytime they feel like it.

[shimmy]

I'd get it checked sooner rather than later.

The repair is NOT done under the corrosion warranty or any extended warranty, but BMW Goodwill, meaning BMW could stop free repairs (or change the qualifying criteria) at anytime they feel like it.

that may be true but the fact they choose to do it under goodwill doesnt change the fact that 12 year bodywork warranty will cover it..........i gather your must be 2003

[Steve B]

Mine was repaired last November on around 67500 miles

[Marchino]

Mine was repaired two weeks ago at Elms, excellent service. There is a waiting list for the subframe crack fix...

[cslsuperfan]

My first contact with Elms today, spoke to Emma. Very impressed, I called and asked for Emma or Gareth, they replied 'do you have a CSL' straight away!

Car is going there for confirmation/photos of the cracked floor.

After the car being mistreated by one dealer it's going to be nice to get it pampered and looked after by Elms!

join the queue, the earliest elms can get cesil in for subframe repair is 3rd week in april, which is cutting it fine for munchen. MOT fail until its done!!

[mattCSLnut]

Anyone know at what mileages CSLs develop cracks or does it just depend on how is driven ?
It's age related, not mileage. :)

[JBird]

Think Emma had half the forum on the phone today!. Got mine booked in for after easter. Mot, insp II, subframe check / repair, auch!

[Straightsix]

Have BMW stated anywhere in writing that must be under 10 years old or is this hear say ?

Is it true the repaired subframe by BMW is more or less no improvements over the old section so same problem again in 10 years ?

Also what do u guys think of using M Prove who supposedly offer a localised repair I think to make it stronger ?

Also are cars that are original so no cracks and don't need new subframe worth more thAn ones that have been "repaired" if everything else is exactly the same such as condition mileage number of owners colour options age etc ?

[shimmy]

I've got a headache :(

School quiz last night:banghead:

[Steve B]

Have BMW stated anywhere in writing that must be under 10 years old or is this hear say ?

Is it true the repaired subframe by BMW is more or less no improvements over the old section so same problem again in 10 years ?

Also what do u guys think of using M Prove who supposedly offer a localised repair I think to make it stronger ?

Also are cars that are original so no cracks and don't need new subframe worth more thAn ones that have been "repaired" if everything else is exactly the same such as condition mileage number of owners colour options age etc ?



There's some pics somewhere on this site of a car that had the localised repair done and the boot floor was still ripped to shreads....


In a year or 2's time when all the cars are 10 years old would you rather buy a car that had a full repair or 1 that hadn't and waiting for it to crack..???


Steve

[portlandgrey]

Have BMW stated anywhere in writing that must be under 10 years old or is this hear say ?

Is it true the repaired subframe by BMW is more or less no improvements over the old section so same problem again in 10 years ?

Also what do u guys think of using M Prove who supposedly offer a localised repair I think to make it stronger ?

Also are cars that are original so no cracks and don't need new subframe worth more thAn ones that have been "repaired" if everything else is exactly the same such as condition mileage number of owners colour options age etc ?

I've read that the replacement floor is modified for greater support. After fitting, its then resin injected.

BMW have looked at the problem & provided an expensive, labour intensive fix - given the repair is 40 odd hours in labour alone.
If it was possible to sort the issue with a localised repair, costing far less, then i'm sure that BMW would have done it- they are footing the bill after all.

If for any reason BMW reject a repair claim, then you've go Mprove & Reddish offering the localised welding/plate fix at a more wallet friendly price.

[Neil M]

I recently posted on then other thread (Technical Area) regarding a BMW internal memo that I found in my history file. Some of you lads will now be familiar with it, having asked for a copy.

What I did find surprising when I sat down and took the time to read it, was the date the document was first circulated: 12/03 which is easily overlooked.
BMW knew about the likelihood of this defect occurring, as the CSL's were coming off the production line. (July 03 - December 03)

That being the case, this must have shown up during testing/proofing of the car, which was supposedly carried out at the Nurburgring.
BMW obviously found that the chassis couldn't cope with high degrees of lateral torsional stress/stain as in high speed cornering.

Good will gesture, or complete recall - no contest.
Not good for their image as the CSL was promoted as a race car for the road. I'm more inclined to think it's more a get out of jail free card.

This fault applies to all of the E46 model range, however as the CSL was marketed it will be predisposed to this fault occurring much sooner than on other models.
Bottom line: It is an inherent design defect.

[dave wilkinson]

[quote=portlandgrey;137349]I've read that the replacement floor is modified for greater support. After fitting, its then resin injected.

BMW have looked at the problem & provided an expensive, labour intensive fix - given the repair is 40 odd hours in labour alone.
If it was possible to sort the issue with a localised repair, costing far less, then i'm sure that BMW would have done it- they are footing the bill after all.


this^^^
the new boot floor is stronger as have different part numbers and slightly different design. i've seen it with my own eyes. for bmw to admit this tho will mean there admitting there's a fault and would have to recall all e46 m3's.

Mprove & Reddish repairs are not ideal if you ask me. they basically drill the end of the crack (to stop it sprending). then glue a plate over the top. nothing to stop cracks appearing from other spot welds. although the plates do help spead the load. for me personally i would'nt touch a csl thats not been repaired by a dealer as 'I' see the reddish repair as a bodge!

[mattCSLnut]

I've read that the replacement floor is modified for greater support. After fitting, its then resin injected.

BMW have looked at the problem & provided an expensive, labour intensive fix - given the repair is 40 odd hours in labour alone.
If it was possible to sort the issue with a localised repair, costing far less, then i'm sure that BMW would have done it- they are footing the bill after all.

If for any reason BMW reject a repair claim, then you've go Mprove & Reddish offering the localised welding/plate fix at a more wallet friendly price.

I don't know where U've read that... unfortunately it's incorrect.
Despite the replacement boot floor having a different part number, it is still the same steel boot floor as the original. The improvements come with the injection of structural foam into the void between inner & outer boot floor that's part of the Official BMW repair which stops any flexing at the rear that's responsible for the chassis cracks developing in the first place. This is why BMW offer this foam injection solution, if they find no chassis cracks. No flex = No cracks.
This information has been provided & confirmed by Emma & Gareth @ Elms Camborne + Malcom (the body shop estimator form Elms Stansted, where the actual chassis repair are undertaken.

[dave wilkinson]

I don't know where U've read that... unfortunately it's incorrect.
Despite the replacement boot floor having a different part number, it is still the same steel boot floor as the original. The improvements come with the injection of structural foam into the void between inner & outer boot floor that's part of the Official BMW repair which stops any flexing at the rear that's responsible for the chassis cracks developing in the first place. This is why BMW offer this foam injection solution, if they find no chassis cracks. No flex = No cracks.
This information has been provided & confirmed by Emma & Gareth @ Elms Camborne + Malcom (the body shop estimator form Elms Stansted, where the actual chassis repair are undertaken.

like i've just said matt-

the new boot floor is stronger as have different part numbers and slightly different design. i've seen it with my own eyes. for bmw to admit this tho will mean there admitting there's a fault and would have to recall all e46 m3's.

the foam injection is NOT i cue is a prevention! there's a few e46's out there that have had the injection and still cracked later on. :beer:

[Steve B]

The other issue is if you have the foam injection you can't have the repair kit done it has to be a full panel replaced. I was told this by Redish when I enquired about the repair panels.


Steve

[mattCSLnut]

like i've just said matt-

the new boot floor is stronger as have different part numbers and slightly different design. i've seen it with my own eyes. for bmw to admit this tho will mean there admitting there's a fault and would have to recall all e46 m3's.

the foam injection is NOT i cue is a prevention! there's a few e46's out there that have had the injection and still cracked later on. :beer:
Are you suggesting the guys @ Elms are spreading misinformation ?
Highly unlikely as Elms are the busiest and most experienced BMW main dealer doing this repair at the moment.
Just because a BMW car part has a different part number doesn't mean it's different, improved or otherwise.
Most car manufacturers (BMW included) change/supersede part numbers over the years. It's a common practice.
Maybe just maybe BMW are using a slightly thicker gauge steel for the replacement boot panels, the press pattern has to be the same to fit the rest of the old E46 chassis. ;)

[dave wilkinson]

Are you suggesting the guys @ Elms are spreading misinformation ?
Highly unlikely as Elms are the busiest and most experienced BMW main dealer doing this repair at the moment.
Just because a BMW car part has a different part number doesn't mean it's different, improved or otherwise.
Most car manufacturers (BMW included) change/supersede part numbers over the years. It's a common practice.
Maybe just maybe BMW are using a slightly thicker gauge steel for the replacement boot panels, the press pattern has to be the same to fit the rest of the old E46 chassis. ;)

so maybe it is different ;)

no i'm not suggesting elms are spreading misinformation, like i say bmw cannot say its different as that would mean there admitting a fault, and involve a recall, costing alot more. when i say bmw, i'm meaning bmw uk not the dealers.

[Straightsix]

I recently posted on then other thread (Technical Area) regarding a BMW internal memo that I found in my history file. Some of you lads will now be familiar with it, having asked for a copy.

What I did find surprising when I sat down and took the time to read it, was the date the document was first circulated: 12/03 which is easily overlooked.
BMW knew about the likelihood of this defect occurring, as the CSL's were coming off the production line. (July 03 - December 03)

That being the case, this must have shown up during testing/proofing of the car, which was supposedly carried out at the Nurburgring.
BMW obviously found that the chassis couldn't cope with high degrees of lateral torsional stress/stain as in high speed cornering.

Good will gesture, or complete recall - no contest.
Not good for their image as the CSL was promoted as a race car for the road. I'm more inclined to think it's more a get out of jail free card.

This fault applies to all of the E46 model range, however as the CSL was marketed it will be predisposed to this fault occurring much sooner than on other models.
Bottom line: It is an inherent design defect.

Hi mate as far as I am aware this happens to all E46s. This happened to my 2000 323Ci Coupe which had the rear subframe axle carrier done by BMW UK in 2007. I noticed some odd noises after doing a Car Control course with the 323Ci at Bruntingthorpe and u could feel a slight vibration. In the early days was thought just to affect E46 323/328 which is what was said in a BMW Car Magazine E46 3 Series Coupe buyer guide

[shimmy]

I've also read here that the new floor has ridges and a slight reinforcement improvement. Someone posted picture of it a year or so ago.

[Steve B]

I had mine done at Specialist Cars body shop in Hitchin by someone I went to school with (he's been there for 24 years and served his apprentiship there and never left).... He told me that he'd done over 50 and this was 5 months ago..


Steve

[shimmy]

I had mine done at Specialist Cars body shop in Hitchin by someone I went to school with (he's been there for 24 years and served his apprentiship there and never left).... He told me that he'd done over 50 and this was 5 months ago..


Steve

Wayne?

[Steve B]

Ray Brookes