So who has the most highly modified CSL?

[Mike R]

Please point me in their direction, as I'd like to have a chat with them about what they have done and what they think to how it has improved the car :).

Alternatively if there is a build thread, then please link me up ;).

To put your mind at ease, I forgot to say, I know Bealo and rstoughy (however, please don't hold that against me ;)).

[shimmy]

Please point me in their direction, as I'd like to have a chat with them about what they have done and what they think to how it has improved the car :).

Alternatively if there is a build thread, then please link me up ;).

To put your mind at ease, I forgot to say, I know Bealo and rstoughy (however, please don't hold that against me ;)).


Mike, thats almost impossible to do

Road going version i presume?

[_Nathan_]

Given the current state of my car I'm not sure if it is really a CSL any more, it has a CSL vin and roof panel if that helps?

[rstoughy]

To put your mind at ease, I forgot to say, I know Bealo and rstoughy (however, please don't hold that against me ;)).

:blalalala: :hahaha:

[Neil M]

If your not familiar you should check out: 'Loaded' http://loaded.se/the-car/
A CSL which is in a continuous state of flux and metamorphoses, what's done today will be changed tomorrow. Objective to better his 'Ring' lap time of 7.22 (standard spec 7.50):thumbs:

[Mike R]

I'm talking UK cars and performance mods for track day / 'ring use (and driving to and from these events).

I already have a dedicated track car and an E90 M3, I want something that sits between the two :).

However, a standard CSL is just painfully slow, so wanted to know how far you could go without forced induction (and not theoretically or anecdotal comments, but real world experience of the kind of mods listed by the likes of Thorney et al).

[shimmy]

I'm talking UK cars and performance mods for track day / 'ring use (and driving to and from these events).

I already have a dedicated track car and an E90 M3, I want something that sits between the two :).

However, a standard CSL is just painfully slow, so wanted to know how far you could go without forced induction (and not theoretically or anecdotal comments, but real world experience of the kind of mods listed by the likes of Thorney et al).

most stop with 9-9.5" rims all round, Cups, Suspension coilovers and AP brakes. Do this and then worry about your driving. I can honestly say i have improved my car by 2 secs a lap and me by 6 secs a lap since starting.

If you stick a charger on it you will regret it

AND HOW DARE YOU SAY THEY ARE PAINFULLY SLOW:moan::-D

[Mike R]

As stated, I'm also not interest in forced induction, but was wanting to speak to someone who had gone down the engine tuning route (cams, porting, headers and full system combined with a remap).

As with any M car being used on track, upgrading the brakes is a given and suspension and geometry changes I know gives good improvements.

My own track car is bored and stroked (but with reduced compression height pistons and longer rods, so that it retains the OE rod angle and loses nothing in torque or rev range), but you CSL boys seem to be scared of anything like this :gayfight: ;). Surely someone has gone nuts on the engine tuning?

[_Nathan_]

Have plenty of customers that have proper engines, for road car I am not sure I'd bother.

[Mike R]

Have plenty of customers that have proper engines, for road car I am not sure I'd bother.

Define a "proper" engine?

[_Nathan_]

20k euro and 20 hour warranty.

[Yanto]

Pm DuncanR.....

He's ok once you know him :thumbs:

[Mike R]

That doesn't sound very proper to me. The cost doesn't seem out of the way, but the life expectancy does. What on earth do you do to them to make them so fragile? Surely with the correct parts (crank, rods, pistons), they can produce the power for longer? We can get 800bhp out of a 2.2 litre for £25k and warrant it for longer :P.

[alexk]

Once more the S54 engine tuning saga :)

The P54 engine by BMW Motorsport (~80k euro just for the engine) produces 390-400hp and is the racing version of the S54.
The reliability of course is the one of a racing engine.
I don't understand how someone can match these numbers without drastic changes and relevant cost of course (Nathan said 20k euro for non-BMW upgrade I suppose ?).

My personal opinion is that the last thing a road/track CSL needs is engine work.

[northernjim]

I think the essence of a csl is not the power of the engine, but its balance and grip, so if your heart is set on modifying a csl- then I think best plan would be to remove as much weight, as well as a few choice mods....


but seeing as your track car is the crazy escort, you could get a stroker kit for your/another e90 ~530bhp is doable I think? That is a car I would like to see on track:notworthy:

[alexk]

the engine tuning route (cams, porting, headers and full system combined with a remap).


I reckon you would get at best +10HP.
It would cost more than 6k EUR... which is not good value for money ;)

[_Nathan_]

I wrote a wrote a long reply but lost it as phone logged out of forum.

20k engine was a highly regarded European engine builder, made 420 on MoTeC and had 20 hour warranty, not to say it would automatically explode at 20 hours.

Take p54 as benchmark and work backwards towards road use friendly but I agree with the guys above, the engine is the wrong place to start on these cars, just a hiding to nothing, even with 420bhp it'd still be slow in a straight line relative to the turbo stuff.

I am hoping for 370 from my engine on MoTeC m190 fwiw.

[Mike R]

I think the essence of a csl is not the power of the engine, but its balance and grip, so if your heart is set on modifying a csl- then I think best plan would be to remove as much weight, as well as a few choice mods....


but seeing as your track car is the crazy escort, you could get a stroker kit for your/another e90 ~530bhp is doable I think? That is a car I would like to see on track:notworthy:

The E90 is a barge - a nice engine in what effectively is a 3 series that is almost the size and weight of an E39 M5. It's an everyday car, not a proper M car IMO. BMW lost their way after the E46, which is a reasonable compromise of size, power and weight (and just raw enough to feel a bit special).

So the basic gist is that everyone is debunking the normal tuning methods and basically the CSL engine can't be improved :hahaha:?

[shimmy]

There is plenty of room for stickers on it......pM neilM for more details.


Nismo, Rays, etc all fit nicely just in front of the rear wheel arch.

Also when the aluminium aftermarket fuel regulator blows off the OeM steel threaded connector and the car turns into a fireball, BMW Monidal recovery will likely be very sympathetic. :)

[Mike R]

One thing the CSL doesn't need is anything doing to it's exterior. No stickers or aftermaeket wheels. The ONLY thing I can think of wanting to do is perhaps the bigger rear OE wheels on the front as well (for track use) and that is it.

Obviously at the moment, all I'm hearing from are those that haven't touched their engines - I really want to hear from those that have :wink: :blalalala:.

[Bealo]

You should have bought mine when you had the chance you SAP....

If you have a V8 barge and that unreliable Track car where does the CSL fit in?

It should be on the track...... :thumbs:

[_Nathan_]

So the basic gist is that everyone is debunking the normal tuning methods and basically the CSL engine can't be improved :hahaha:?

No one is saying that, just that diminishing returns kicks in very early and chasing power is pretty pointless when you get better laptimes from other modifications.

Fact is you could spend a lot of money chasing power with crank, pistons, rods, cams, big valve head, injectors, map the DME for that (have to retain that due to SMG unless you can be bothered to reverse engineer the comms and logic between Engine and SMG ECUs) and lets say maybe you get a real 410bhp (125bhp/L) then at full weight you'll still have a car that is slow in a straight line :thumbs:

[monkeycsl]

Painfully slow WTF :banghead:

[Mike R]

Painfully slow WTF :banghead:

I'm spoiled - most things seem painfully slow :(.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5VV79oHSwA&list=UUMJdbe1Kky5WsSI2QyEumMA&index=9

[Steve B]

To put your mind at ease, I forgot to say, I know Bealo and rstoughy (however, please don't hold that against me ;)).


and meeeee......:partyman:

[Mike R]

You should have bought mine when you had the chance you SAP....

If you have a V8 barge and that unreliable Track car where does the CSL fit in?

It should be on the track...... :thumbs:

That's where it will be :blalalala:. It's just the Cossie (with the straight cut dog 'box) is just too focused for driving huge distances to track days (e.g. the 'ring), so I want something that will thrill and that I won't fall asleep driving ;).

[Mike R]

and meeeee......:partyman:

Having seen the wheels you first put on it, I thought it must be a replica :whistle: :blalalala:.

[Mike R]

No one is saying that, just that diminishing returns kicks in very early and chasing power is pretty pointless when you get better laptimes from other modifications.

Fact is you could spend a lot of money chasing power with crank, pistons, rods, cams, big valve head, injectors, map the DME for that (have to retain that due to SMG unless you can be bothered to reverse engineer the comms and logic between Engine and SMG ECUs) and lets say maybe you get a real 410bhp (125bhp/L) then at full weight you'll still have a car that is slow in a straight line :thumbs:

I appreciate that, hence why I wanted to speak to people that had gone down that route to see what their real world experience of various mods were.

I know what good suspension and brakes do as I have Ohlins TTX and 378mm water-cooled WRC AP 6-pots / 315mm titanium pistoned Grp A AP 4-pots on my current track car.

[Porker]

Engine-wise mine is slightly modified and runs at 384hp, can't say the difference with a regular one is that noticeable.

-Supersprint stepped headers
-Supersprint mettalic Cats
-Supersprint mid section
-Supersprint back box
-Schrik 280/288 cams and Schrik rocker arms fitted
-Re-mapped by PPE @ 384bhp/411Nm

[Mike R]

Engine-wise mine is slightly modified and runs at 384hp, can't say the difference with a regular one is that noticeable.

-Supersprint stepped headers
-Supersprint mettalic Cats
-Supersprint mid section
-Supersprint back box
-Schrik 280/288 cams and Schrik rocker arms fitted
-Re-mapped by PPE @ 384bhp/411Nm

I'm assuming by your mods that all the extra power is above 7000rpm - did you find the cams lost some of the standard car's mid-range? Have you got a before and after overlaid power plot to see where the gains / losses were?

[alexk]

I only run a SS Race Lightweight and have 370PS and 389Nm.
My acceleration times are phenomenal for a stock car (telemetry) :thumbs:

It just shows what fresh air full with oxygen and Swiss fuel can do...

[shimmy]

Engine-wise mine is slightly modified and runs at 384hp, can't say the difference with a regular one is that noticeable.

-Supersprint stepped headers
-Supersprint mettalic Cats
-Supersprint mid section
-Supersprint back box
-Schrik 280/288 cams and Schrik rocker arms fitted
-Re-mapped by PPE @ 384bhp/411Nm

i know why that is :)

[Mike R]

i know why that is :)

Stop being secret squirrel :gayfight:.

Is it because most of the performance increases mentioned are load of BS :wink: ?

[_Nathan_]

I remember being impressed with your watercooled brakes at the ring, we spoke many years ago in the car park, guess 2003 ish.

Looking at this video of Donny in the Escort the lap times are no faster than a standard CSL so wondering if it just feels miles slower because of the power delivery?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22tqRTDxCbc&list=UUMJdbe1Kky5WsSI2QyEumMA&index=11

For what it is worth, I think a Drexler plated diff is the best money you can spend on a road going M3, traction is so much better, and miles more predictable when it lets go too.

[Mike R]

I remember being impressed with your watercooled brakes at the ring, we spoke many years ago in the car park, guess 2003 ish.

Looking at this video of Donny in the Escort the lap times are no faster than a standard CSL so wondering if it just feels miles slower because of the power delivery?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22tqRTDxCbc&list=UUMJdbe1Kky5WsSI2QyEumMA&index=11

For what it is worth, I think a Drexler plated diff is the best money you can spend on a road going M3, traction is so much better, and miles more predictable when it lets go too.


It was only running a 1.5 bar of boost (noise restrictions), but that was still sufficient to catch the CSL there on the day and pass it, as you can see in the above video ;).

[alexk]

Looking at this video of Donny in the Escort the lap times are no faster than a standard CSL so wondering if it just feels miles slower because of the power delivery?

:smt020 Very interesting.

[_Nathan_]

No accounting for drivers...

[Mike R]

No accounting for drivers...

True :). My car only runs about 460PS in low boost and weighs 1500kg, so in reduced boost scenarios is never going to set the world alight.

This jumps to 550PS and 685Nm at 2.2 bar (engine dyno verified) and it's character then changes....

[Porker]

I'm assuming by your mods that all the extra power is above 7000rpm - did you find the cams lost some of the standard car's mid-range? Have you got a before and after overlaid power plot to see where the gains / losses were?

I can't thoroughly compare before/after, as I've bought the car with these mods in place. But compared to a stock CSL it has lost some driveability in the mid-range, power delivery seems a tiny bit jerky. Top of the revband is much smoother.

I'll check if I can make a scan of the remap, don't know if I have a before/after overlay as well, I'll check!

[Mike R]

I can't thoroughly compare before/after, as I've bought the car with these mods in place. But compared to a stock CSL it has lost some driveability in the mid-range, power delivery seems a tiny bit jerky. Top of the revband is much smoother.

I'll check if I can make a scan of the remap, don't know if I have a before/after overlay as well, I'll check!

Many thanks :thumbs: !

[shimmy]

Stop being secret squirrel :gayfight:.

Is it because most of the performance increases mentioned are load of BS :wink: ?



:-D:119:


Looking at your video Mike, I don't see that Cossy catching a well driven CSL, we always have our boost turned down.

Not knowing how well you drive, unless ou were cracking 1m 20s at Donny I'd say the CSL is faster and at the Ring I'd say the stock CSL will be faster. Amybe it's a chance to look a bit more holistically at a car and have something that is reliable, road and tack use, faster than most affordable cars and a great tool for learning to driver better (not meant to be a dig)

If you do want to pull an engine apart I'd get a V8 and buy an E46M3 and do your worst!

[Bealo]

I'm spoiled - most things seem painfully slow :(.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5VV79oHSwA&list=UUMJdbe1Kky5WsSI2QyEumMA&index=9

I look forward to seeing you at Snett on June 10th then and I'll try not to hold you up :whistle:

[shimmy]

I look forward to seeing you at Snett on June 10th then and I'll try not to hold you up :whistle:

How many ponies are you kicking out now?

[sjb]

That csl certainly didn't appear to be being driven to its full potential ;)
The capri driver was doing well keeping it's arse from catching up with the front end :hahaha:

[Mike R]

:-D:119:


Looking at your video Mike, I don't see that Cossy catching a well driven CSL, we always have our boost turned down.

Not knowing how well you drive, unless ou were cracking 1m 20s at Donny I'd say the CSL is faster and at the Ring I'd say the stock CSL will be faster. Amybe it's a chance to look a bit more holistically at a car and have something that is reliable, road and tack use, faster than most affordable cars and a great tool for learning to driver better (not meant to be a dig)

If you do want to pull an engine apart I'd get a V8 and buy an E46M3 and do your worst!

I've never timed myself at any events, but we all like to consider ourselves "good" drivers :wink:. However, in my experience, I have yet to come across a CSL that has been driven with sufficient gusto to prevent it from being overtaken at any circuit (including that green thing at the 'ring ;) ).

I know exactly what you mean regarding the driving aspect and the way I have set my car up (over the 12 years I've owned it), everyone who has driven it has raved about the handling, as it is very neutral and with the traction provided with 4wd, can out-corner almost anything it comes across (aero cars excluded) - basically it has become too easy to drive. As soon as you turn in, you can nail the throttle, it grips, requires a sniff of opposite lock and away it goes. So you are correct, having perfected it, I fancy the challenge of something new and more difficult to get the speed out of. Having had some seat time in a well modded E46 M3 (Intrax, CSL wheels, APs and geo set-up) around the 'ring, I love the way these cars drive, but was worried that with the standard 360PS CSL, I'd get bored (as I have with the E90). I'm used to rwd having had a 515bhp Sapphire, which was a real handful, so sideways does not bother me in the slightest :).

[Mike R]

That csl certainly didn't appear to be being driven to its full potential ;)
The capri driver was doing well keeping it's arse from catching up with the front end :hahaha:

The Capri is running a 370bhp Cossie lump :).

[Mike R]

How many ponies are you kicking out now?

Not enough ;).

[alexk]

CSL wheels

Although the CSL wheels are the most beautiful wheels for the CSL, they are far from being lightweight.
Quite the contrary. Have a look here -> http://www.cslregister.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134731&postcount=30

[sjb]

The Capri is running a 370bhp Cossie lump :).

Fair play to that!! Looks like a standard 2.8i or 280 to me !

[Mike R]

Although the CSL wheels are the most beautiful wheels for the CSL, they are far from being lightweight.
Quite the contrary. Have a look here -> http://www.cslregister.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134731&postcount=30

Alex,
The weights given by manufacturers tend to be an average of all the wheels across the various offsets in that size, so you'd really need to weigh the exact wheel in question (with the correct offset for a CSL) to get a truly accurate comparison - you might find that they are heavier (or even lighter) than quoted, depending on the offset (which is achieved by more or less material in the centre of the wheel, as in a high offset wheel will weigh more than a low offset wheel of the exact same type and size).

Where the weights for the OE CSL wheel, I assume are for that specific wheel / offset for the car?

[Mike R]

Fair play to that!! Looks like a standard 2.8i or 280 to me !

Did you not wonder how it was able to stay in touch with the CSL :smt064 ?

[alexk]

Alex,
The weights given by manufacturers tend to be an average of all the wheels across the various offsets in that size, so you'd really need to weigh the exact wheel in question (with the correct offset for a CSL) to get a truly accurate comparison - you might find that they are heavier (or even lighter) than quoted, depending on the offset (which is achieved by more or less material in the centre of the wheel, as in a high offset wheel will weigh more than a low offset wheel of the exact same type and size).

Where the weights for the OE CSL wheel, I assume are for that specific wheel / offset for the car?

Mike, the wheel weights that I posted are for CSL fitment.
Also, CSL wheels have of course CSL offsets.

[73CSL]

I'm new to CSL's , but seems its similar to GT3 situation ... as in , the motor is already at high state of tune. With GT3's , to mod them for more power is huge cost for small gains. Most don't bother & leave the engine as it is & instead concentrate on teh usual suspension , brakes etc.

For anyone whos' a power junkie, the best thing to do is go for either a modded Turbo / GT2

As you can see from your own cars, the best route for power tuning Turbo / SC. My own Turbo was only mapped ( 1.0 bar) + a sports back box, but that was meant to be 520bhp ...... for a relatively small investment you can wind them up to 650bhp .. throw more cash & you're higher still

I imagine it comes down to what you are actually trying to acheive ?

[Mike R]

I'm new to CSL's , but seems its similar to GT3 situation ... as in , the motor is already at high state of tune. With GT3's , to mod them for more power is huge cost for small gains. Most don't bother & leave the engine as it is & instead concentrate on teh usual suspension , brakes etc.

For anyone whos' a power junkie, the best thing to do is go for either a modded Turbo / GT2

As you can see from your own cars, the best route for power tuning Turbo / SC. My own Turbo was only mapped ( 1.0 bar) + a sports back box, but that was meant to be 520bhp ...... for a relatively small investment you can wind them up to 650bhp .. throw more cash & you're higher still

I imagine it comes down to what you are actually trying to acheive ?

I did consider a 997 GT2, but that would mean selling all the other cars to do so. And then I also started to think about how I would drive a car that stood me in at £70-80k on a track day, and came to the conclusion that the answer to that would be "like a girl" :whistle:, so given that this is what I would want it for, I had to have a rethink.

I could keep the Escort and get something that sits between the E90 for refinement and the Escort for track fun - the CSL was the only car I could think of that fitted the bill (and was one I actually liked).

[phoenixcsl]

Mike I know your name from somewhere...

Were you on scoobynet at some point, probably about 10+ years ago?!

[Mike R]

Mike I know your name from somewhere...

Were you on scoobynet at some point, probably about 10+ years ago?!

Yep, and we still have a couple of Scoobies to this day as well :).

[73CSL]

I did consider a 997 GT2, but that would mean selling all the other cars to do so. And then I also started to think about how I would drive a car that stood me in at £70-80k on a track day, and came to the conclusion that the answer to that would be "like a girl" :whistle:, so given that this is what I would want it for, I had to have a rethink.

I could keep the Escort and get something that sits between the E90 for refinement and the Escort for track fun - the CSL was the only car I could think of that fitted the bill (and was one I actually liked).


996 turbo & 996 GT2 is an easier car to mod. 997 went to the fancy variable vane turbos. A decent manual box turbo is around £25K - £30K .... a GT2 a bit more

This is a well known car at a good price ( due to higher miles)

http://www.911virgin.com/porscheforsale/611/996GT2/

[Bealo]

How many ponies are you kicking out now?

Have been told it will be somewhere between 700-750 by the time I get back in May for the Euro trip.

[shimmy]

Alex,
The weights given by manufacturers tend to be an average of all the wheels across the various offsets in that size, so you'd really need to weigh the exact wheel in question (with the correct offset for a CSL) to get a truly accurate comparison - you might find that they are heavier (or even lighter) than quoted, depending on the offset (which is achieved by more or less material in the centre of the wheel, as in a high offset wheel will weigh more than a low offset wheel of the exact same type and size).

Where the weights for the OE CSL wheel, I assume are for that specific wheel / offset for the car?


You are right, they tend to quote weights of low offsets then stick a lump of alloy to increase the offset which lifts the weight by 0.5-1.0 kg........but it is weightat the centre and not really having any rotational effect.

Also they rarely quote stiffness which is equally important.

[phoenixcsl]

Yep, and we still have a couple of Scoobies to this day as well :).

Thought as much! I used to be on there many moons ago when I had my STI-V5 ah happy days...

Anyway, stop coming on here causing trouble :)

[phoenixcsl]

Have been told it will be somewhere between 700-750 by the time I get back in May for the Euro trip.

Stu, I need another ride in the porker if you're putting out that kind of ponies now, was pretty rapid last time, this time should be immense!

[shimmy]

Have been told it will be somewhere between 700-750 by the time I get back in May for the Euro trip.

I hope it makes it to the ferry at Harwich :)

If you want me to test drive it for a few weeks before you get back, just ask :) Santa Pod is quite close

[Mike R]

996 turbo & 996 GT2 is an easier car to mod. 997 went to the fancy variable vane turbos. A decent manual box turbo is around £25K - £30K .... a GT2 a bit more

This is a well known car at a good price ( due to higher miles)

http://www.911virgin.com/porscheforsale/611/996GT2/

Having driven a Manthay Racing 996 Turbo around Dono (X50 GT2 turbos, 520bhp and KW suspension), you couldn't give me one (sorry Stu!). I don't like the way the 4wd shuffles the power around the car.

I've not driven a 996 GT2, but I don't like the look of them and also as said, didn't really want another FI car.

I contemplated a GT3, but the best ones are the 996 versions (according to the afficionados) and I don't like the look of them, along with a CSL being just as quick, better looking (IMO) and twice as practical. I can't afford a 997 GT3 RS v.2 (the one that is considered the next best), as they're still around the £90-100k mark and again, for what I want to use the car for, I'd could justify having that amount tied up in one car that I was too scared to use properly (I'm not one for having a car just to look at and say I own).

[Mike R]

Have been told it will be somewhere between 700-750 by the time I get back in May for the Euro trip.

Ha, ha - it will be break something - I hope you can turn the boost down :wink: ?

I'll make a diary note of the track day - who is it with?

[Mike R]

Thought as much! I used to be on there many moons ago when I had my STI-V5 ah happy days...

Anyway, stop coming on here causing trouble :)

I just want to talk turkey with like minded peeps ;).

We have an RB320 and a UK300 :).

[Bealo]

Ha, ha - it will be break something - I hope you can turn the boost down :wink: ?

I'll make a diary note of the track day - who is it with?

We shall see.. The gearbox is going to Germany for strengthening and the rest tbh is mainly bolt on. Brand new fuel system and max boost will be 1.5 bar. Will hopefully have a Syvecs S8 fitted around end of the year then ill keep it like that. Already got the brakes and suspension done. Looking homeward to having a car that can handle its own in all areas.

Not sure who the Snetterton day is with but be good to see how the 911 fairs against yr Escort...

[Mike R]

We shall see.. The gearbox is going to Germany for strengthening and the rest tbh is mainly bolt on. Brand new fuel system and max boost will be 1.5 bar. Will hopefully have a Syvecs S8 fitted around end of the year then ill keep it like that. Already got the brakes and suspension done. Looking homeward to having a car that can handle its own in all areas.

Not sure who the Snetterton day is with but be good to see how the 911 fairs against yr Escort...

Remind me nearer the time :).

You never did tell me why you got this as opposed to the GTR (I was looking forward to looking after that for you ;))?

[shane@mbtech]

Speak to Wayne Gibson, he seems to be getting good power from them.
Ask a guy on here called Hazy (Adam), he has his car looked after by Wayne. Its a race car, Im sure he will advise you better than most on here.

Gibson brothers racing iirc.

[chicken]

May I ask why you want more HP?

I think I read in one of your posts because you may get bored? <-- is that the reason?

[Mike R]

May I ask why you want more HP?

I think I read in one of your posts because you may get bored? <-- is that the reason?

Basically yes, because I am used to 500+bhp cars and secondly because I'm a seriel modifier :oops:.

[chicken]

Ahh ok, why look at cecils then? you should get something 'merican or Japanese, plenty of stage 1 600+ HP GT-R's around,

[Mike R]

Ahh ok, why look at cecils then? you should get something 'merican or Japanese, plenty of stage 1 600+ HP GT-R's around,

American :bigcry:? I'm not looking for a straight line muscle car, I'm after handling finesse :blalalala:, I just want a bit more power than a standard Cecil (400bhp would be nice).

Tried a GTR, didn't like it - does too much for you and due to its weight isn't actually that fast (didn't seem any faster than a 997 GT3 RS v.1). It's impressive that it can do what it does, and I REALLY wanted to gel with it, as it would be a car that could do everything, but it left me cold.

As Stu (Bealo) will tell you, I've had a thing for CSLs for years, but the lack of performance (compared to what I've been used to) has previously deterred me. However, I'm now getting older and am starting to realise you don't NEED mega power to have fun, but a BIT more would be nice ;).

IMO the CSL is the best M car BMW ever built, and I am feeling the need for one. Nothing else will do ;).

[chicken]

Ok now that's a whole different story :supz:

It's far better value buying an e46 m3, do the usual that you would on a csl, brakes, suspension and then just shed some of the full fat e46 m3 weight and do a couple performance mods to liven the engine a bit.

Or better yet buy one that's already had the above done :whistle:

[Mike R]

Ok now that's a whole different story :supz:

It's far better value buying an e46 m3, do the usual that you would on a csl, brakes, suspension and then just shed some of the full fat e46 m3 weight and do a couple performance mods to liven the engine a bit.

Or better yet buy one that's already had the above done :whistle:

Show me :blalalala: ;).

[Yanto]

Can we have a "tecnical debating society" sub-forum set up

I get bored of these willy waving POWER threads....

:banghead:

[Bealo]

Remind me nearer the time :).

You never did tell me why you got this as opposed to the GTR (I was looking forward to looking after that for you ;))?

Ok will do.

The reason I didn't buy the Datsun was mainly the trans temp issues on track. They are a fantastic car but when I drove the Porsche I knew it was for me.

How you can call a 996 GT2 ugly is beyond me!!! But you always have had strange taste putting up with that fragile Escort for aslong as you have!

[Mike R]

Can we have a "tecnical debating society" sub-forum set up

I get bored of these willy waving POWER threads....

:banghead:

I don't understand why anyone considers an opinion different to their own as "willy waving".

This is why I'm talking to owners who have real world experience to establish what are worth while modifications - get over it :gayfight:.

[sjb]

Basically yes, because I am used to 500+bhp cars and secondly because I'm a seriel modifier :oops:.

Just a thought but maybe you are barking up the wrong tree with a csl. I don't think I'm speaking out of turn here but the s54 engine in 'CSL' tune is pretty much at the limit of tune/reliability vs cost/gain. Whilst the engine is and was highly regarded as a masterpiece it is an 'old' engine. And would an extra 35-40hp really be that noticeable? (I say this as my 130hp VW Transporter ain't that much quicker than my mates 84hp one :blalalala: ) just 'because' you can get the extra 35-40hp doesn't mean it's worthwhile..... wouldn't chassis work be more productive around a circuit?
Sometimes you have to admit defeat and just agree, for what it is a CSL is an amazing car standard, I'm limiting my mods to a Brembo BBK because I don't feel right doing any more to it.
JUST my opinion, interesting as always hearing other views.....although the 'my car is faster than your car' is wearing a little thin :whistle:

[Yanto]

I don't understand why anyone considers an opinion different to their own as "willy waving".

This is why I'm talking to owners who have real world experience to establish what are worth while modifications - get over it :gayfight:.

Was tongue in cheek mate.... ;)

[chicken]

You said you wanted something that handles, what about an anal atom Or one of those catermaran things?

[deadscoob]

Mike,

Judging by your video, surely spending the money you have set aside for mods on a bt of driver training would be better? :whistle:

[alexk]

Mike I have a solution for you.

These guys have a P54 engine for sale.
http://www.scottsdalemotorsport.com/BMWE46M3FACTORYRACECARPARTS.html

They also have the original P54 headers.

[sjb]

Mike I have a solution for you.

These guys have a P54 engine for sale.
http://www.scottsdalemotorsport.com/BMWE46M3FACTORYRACECARPARTS.html

They also have the original P54 headers.

BUT it's only got 450hp, that'll not be fast enough :hahaha:

[chicken]

There's no explaining a CSL, it's magic

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Really strange thread.

Do not know very much about these
Bang/Bang Pop-Pop things.

Without going off topic to much
does this 800 BHP or whatever
Escort have the WRC Multi Link
rear end fitted, and what sort of
Turbo lag does it run ?

Ford had major Traction problems
at circa 325/350 BHP with the Turbo
Escort and had to re-design the rear end
as the std Mac Struts and Trailing arms
could not cope, hence a totally re-designed
rear Multi Link suspension was required
to handle the Traction issues.

Struts on Trailing arms is Camber and toe
gain hell on a Track.

So does the fire breathing monster run
WRC complete rear end ?

Anything done at the front, Wishbones ?

Turbo lag, I expect many have been
there, mid corner, whoosssh in it comes
and hence maybe the reference to the
right and left armco's at the Ring I am
guessing `?

So do you run an enormus Turbo at very
low Boost to help offset the Lag, or just
try and second guess when its coming
and turn the radio down so you can monitor it
better ?

Heat- what do you do with a Car like this
when the ambient air temp is 32c plus
pit every 2 laps ?
Global Warming if correct does you no favors.
Bit like the GTR, 2 good laps then 3 to
cool it all down if your lucky, or back
to the Pits for 30 mins.
Thats why Nissan fitted Cup Holders.

Was it not the Escort Turbo's that had to run
around with the ''water Kit Aid'' no not
First Aid, water kit aid in the boot, but
not connected or something ?

With all this going on I can uderstand the
attraction of something without boost,
as spending part of the Track day in the
pits cooling down, fumbling for the
Water Kit Aid, or spending so much of each lap
sideways is not really making the best
use of on Track Time.

Interesting car though.

As regards Tuning the S54 ala CSL
if you really believe that 20/30 BHP more
will shave seconds of any given lap
then there are many out just waiting
for your money.

BMW drew the line at Circa 415 BHP on
cost v reliability, its all to conveniently
forgotten.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Mike R]

Hi,

Really strange thread.

Do not know very much about these
Bang/Bang Pop-Pop things.

I can tell that from your comments below, so let's address each point ;).


Without going off topic to much
does this 800 BHP or whatever
Escort have the WRC Multi Link
rear end fitted, and what sort of
Turbo lag does it run ?
It's a baby engine with only 550PS and 685Nm. No it doesn't have the WRC set up, but it does have a fully adjustable (camber and toe) 6deg rear beam, which is an improvement on the 9 deg mag arm of the Grp A cars and removes the bump steer issues of the OE arrangement.

Regarding turbo lag, it has none to speak of, due to the roller bearing core on the turbo and switchable ALS (Anti Lag System). However, I guess that is not what you really mean as turbo lag is the loss of boost between gear changes and the time it takes to regain the boost in up or down shifts. I suspect what you're really asking is what the boost threshold is like (which is the rpm point that the turbo makes full boost). Well here is the dyno graph to answer that question:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/MikeR/Dyno%20sheets/543bhpdynosheetimage.jpg
As you can see it makes good boost from 3250rpm onwards (much better than lots of other factory turbo cars even. This is achieved by a roller bearing core turbo, relatively high compression and a Mountune WRC roller barrell intake system (which changes the standard single throttle butterfly arrangement to individual throttle arrangement per cylinder (like the Cecil's).


Ford had major Traction problems
at circa 325/350 BHP with the Turbo
Escort and had to re-design the rear end
as the std Mac Struts and Trailing arms
could not cope, hence a totally re-designed
rear Multi Link suspension was required
to handle the Traction issues.

Struts on Trailing arms is Camber and toe
gain hell on a Track.

So does the fire breathing monster run
WRC complete rear end ?

Anything done at the front, Wishbones ?

It was not just the traction, the OE set up had horrendous bump steer issues. The wheel actually proscribed an arc in its suspension travel, going from negative camber in full compression to positive camber in full droop, along with the toe changing as well, so the redesign was to remove the constantly variable suspension geometry. My beam now has no bump steer issues and is fully adjustable.

The front end is standard and although the front roll centre is lower than the rear, it's not too bad in the dry, but does push on a bit if you go in too hard in the wet (but the so do most cars ;)).



Turbo lag, I expect many have been
there, mid corner, whoosssh in it comes
and hence maybe the reference to the
right and left armco's at the Ring I am
guessing `?
There you go again - confusing lag with boost threshold LOL. Obviously with it being a turbo and the way the torque ramps up over a short rpm range, there is definitely a particular driving style you have to adopt with it: this involves a certain amount of anticipation, but is similar to driving a responsive rear wheel drive - you give it power in a corner EXPECTING that it is going to break traction, so you're ready with the opposite lock to catch it - pretty simple really ;). As you can see, providing you're above 3250rpm, then it's not too bad :blalalala:. Not really much different to keeping a pesky NA engine on cam :gayfight:.


So do you run an enormus Turbo at very
low Boost to help offset the Lag, or just
try and second guess when its coming
and turn the radio down so you can monitor it
better ?

Depends what you call enormous? It's a custom built T4 that flows 48lb of air at 2.2 bar, it's large compared to OE turbos, but small compared to what is needed to achieve 800bhp from a 2.2 litre.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/MikeR/Escort%20Photos/Enginebay201203.jpg
It's hard to hear the radio above the transmission ;).


Heat- what do you do with a Car like this
when the ambient air temp is 32c plus
pit every 2 laps ?
Global Warming if correct does you no favors.
Bit like the GTR, 2 good laps then 3 to
cool it all down if your lucky, or back
to the Pits for 30 mins.
Thats why Nissan fitted Cup Holders.

You're making assumptions LOL. Didn't anyone ever tell you about those ;)?
It has cooling system that allows full use of the power in all weathers. The intercooler is 100mm thick with massive surface area.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/MikeR/Escort%20Photos/Pro-alloymods19.jpg
For the engine cooling it has an increased capacity radiator, plus a secondary one as well, along with running a waterless coolant that doesn't boil until over 200deg C, all of which prevents localised hot spots from super heating the coolant and raising the temperature to a dangerous level. As you can see it also has a thermostatically controlled oil cooler to supliment the OE water cooled Mocal item.


Was it not the Escort Turbo's that had to run
around with the ''water Kit Aid'' no not
First Aid, water kit aid in the boot, but
not connected or something ?

You're referring to the water injection arrangement that ALL rally teams used to maintain charge air temps (required because the cars being sideways a lot of the time, don't always have direct air flow through the intercoolers. Mine also has this set up fitted, but with the intercooler fitted, I haven't seen the water injection light come on for several years (activated by the ECU when charge temps exceed 44 deg C)


With all this going on I can uderstand the
attraction of something without boost,
as spending part of the Track day in the
pits cooling down, fumbling for the
Water Kit Aid, or spending so much of each lap
sideways is not really making the best
use of on Track Time.

Again you're making assumptions LOL. The tyres get hot before anything else does (as you can see from this video)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4onGXhF_oU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
It beeps at the start because the pressures have been dropped and it's giving the low warning alarm. Once they get up to pressure (with some heat in them) it then turns off. Towards the end of the session, the tyres start to overheat (the alarm trips when they go above 80 deg C). However, as I can see some good scalps in the distance, I elect to ignore the alarm until I've reeled them in and had a "play". Not wanting kill the tyres, I then chose to come in and let everything cool for the next session. Not being a car that is used on a daily basis, it has been properly prepped for track work :blalalala:.



Interesting car though.

Thanks. However, they say that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, I would suggest you stick to Cecils ;).


As regards Tuning the S54 ala CSL
if you really believe that 20/30 BHP more
will shave seconds of any given lap
then there are many out just waiting
for your money.

BMW drew the line at Circa 415 BHP on
cost v reliability, its all to conveniently
forgotten.

Regards,

The Gorilla.
Seeing as I don't time my laps, the extra power wasn't for shaving any time off, the idea was to just make the car more exciting to drive. However, having done some in depth research over the last few days, I can see that the S54 as you have already mentioned, is already on the limit (piston speed is extremely high for a production car), so I think I would probably only end up blue printing the engine to ensure it was in rude health and actually had the power that BMW claim for it.

If a normal E46 M3 engine came along for the right money, it might even be worth stripping one down to see if any improvements could be made with some lighter reciprocating parts. IMO there's not a production car out there that can't be improved, as manufacturers have to build a certain degree of safey margin into things to allow for 100,000 + mile life span. I'm not requiring that kind of longevity :blalalala:.

[sjb]

You appear to have finally answered your own questions in your last two paragraphs.
Good luck coaxing any more useful hp out of the S54, it sounds like you are far better at that than BMW Motorsport.
Best of luck too making the CSL 'more exciting to drive'.
I look forward to your results.

[Neil M]

If a normal E46 M3 engine came along for the right money, it might even be worth stripping one down to see if any improvements could be made with some lighter reciprocating parts. IMO there's not a production car out there that can't be improved, as manufacturers have to build a certain degree of safey margin into things to allow for 100,000 + mile life span. I'm not requiring that kind of longevity :blalalala:.

There are lots on available on ebay:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-E46-M3-3-2-SMG-Engine-S54-B32-/321026618930?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&fits=Plat_Gen%3AE46|Cars+Type%3AM3+3.2&hash=item4abead7632

[alexk]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/MikeR/Escort%20Photos/Enginebay201203.jpg

Is this your current setup ?
If yes, I don't see TTX dampers. These are monotube inverted.
Are you running TTX (only) at the back ?

[shane@mbtech]

Definitely Ohlins in that Pic Alex from what I can see.

[alexk]

Definitely Ohlins in that Pic Alex from what I can see.

Hi mate.
Yes they are ohlins monotube inverted, therefore the external reservoir :beer:

[shimmy]

Mike

Bugger me, if you get a CSL you are goin to have NOTHING to do all weekend but drive it. You will have to change your whole outlook on life and cars.

It will be interesting what conclusion you come to....ie if you just get board or luv it.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Your power numbers are interesting but
do you have any comparission with a
Higher Air temp ?

What is your increase in Oiling for
the Bearings in that Turbo, [T4] as no
matter how large your charge cooling
or any amount of water or meth!!
injection keeping that thing in
check when it Glows Bright red it
will deform all that nice Carbon bling
in no time.

Do you run revearse pattern Cams ?

All said and done, I have no doubt that
you have invested a lot of time, money
and at times frustration, but in truth I
believe that with say 375 BHP and a
properly sorted chassis you would lap
just as quick if not quicker.

Having the ability to dial in large amounts
of toe, camber castor and so on will never
make it turn in correctly, or roll in and out
progressively.
Looking at the film footage it looks great
fun, but it snatches and wants to
push when not really being pushed,
certainly not the quickest way around the
black stuff, even if does pump out
over 500 BHP.

Better traction would be much kinder
to your tyres and then you could
spend less time in the Pits !!

Reminds me of the old RS500 nice in
straight line, just do not expect to
much at the twisties.

Not convinced on Roller Barrels either,
bit like the Slides V Tb's argument
but each to his own.

On the S54 for sure you can improve
anything but study the S54 closely and
you will see that it was not so bad
straight out the box, areas for
improvemnet for sure, but a CSL
with 360 bhp and refined mechanical grip
will be much quicker on Track
than one with 400 bhp and a set
of Billies bolted on.

Same sort of issues like your Escort.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Mike R]

Alex,
If you check with Ohlins, you will find that they don't list ANY dampers off the shelf for the Cosworths, I had these custom built for me :).

[Mike R]

Hi,

Your power numbers are interesting but
do you have any comparission with a
Higher Air temp ?

Again you're showing your lack of knowledge with these things ;). The air temp is the ambient temperature inside the dyno cell for SAE correction purposes. The actual charge temps that these figures are recorded at is a static 40 deg C intake temp, achieved with a water jacketed intercooler and a 20,000 litre tank with the flow controlled by a thermostatically operated pump.


What is your increase in Oiling for
the Bearings in that Turbo, [T4] as no
matter how large your charge cooling
or any amount of water or meth!!
injection keeping that thing in
check when it Glows Bright red it
will deform all that nice Carbon bling
in no time.

Yet again you're making assumptions LOL. The turbo is a Motorsport derived one (loosely based on the old RS500 touring car ones), it has no increase in oiling, as it is designed to operate all day long at 2.2 bar. In fact, to give the engine cooling an easier time, the water-cooling of the turbo has been removed (as is the norm on race cars, as the water cooling on road cars is just done to speed up the warming up process and help cool the oil on shut down to prevent it crystallising in the oil ways and blocking these when Joe Bloggs shuts the engine off without letting the turbo cool down. Obviously knowing this, I let the turbo warm up and cool down properly, so it's not needed and just puts extra heat into the cooling system on a track car (as the turbo is on reheat virtually all the time). Regarding the turbo internals, I advised earlier that the car runs ALS, which if you knew anything about how that works (retarding the ignition so that unburned fuel goes straight into the turbine wheel where the heat ignites it and effectively turns it into a jet engine to keep it spooling between gear changes, thus removing LAG ;)), then you'd understand that a standard turbo wouldn't last five minutes with this arrangement, due to the IMMENSE heat this generates. However, the turbo is far from standard, it has a custom made Mar-m 247 shaft, which is safe to extreme temps (a standard turbo would fall apart at 1000 deg C (as measured 6" from the turbine wheel), where the Mar-m 247 shaft regularly sees 1150 deg C with no issues :supz:. The manifold is also heat coated, to reduce the under bonnet temps.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/MikeR/Escort%20Photos/Zircotecexhaustmanifold02.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/MikeR/Escort%20Photos/Zircotecexhaustmanifold01.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/MikeR/Escort%20Photos/Zircotecexhaustmanifold03.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/MikeR/Escort%20Photos/Rebuild104.jpg

The Escort (being a homolgation car), has heat management features built in as standard and actually has gills at the back of the engine bay in the inner wings which vent into the outer wings, where the airflow creates a low pressure area and pulls all the heat out from.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/MikeR/Escort%20Photos/SnettertonTA10-Oct-2010006.jpg

Hi,
Do you run revearse pattern Cams ?

No, but it has had the hydraulic lifters removed and been replaced with shimmed solid lifter items, with Iskey double valve springs and custom profiled solid lifter cams. This is to prevent valve float that the standard hydraulic valve actuation gives above 7000rpm and 2 bar of boost.


All said and done, I have no doubt that
you have invested a lot of time, money
and at times frustration, but in truth I
believe that with say 375 BHP and a
properly sorted chassis you would lap
just as quick if not quicker.

Again you're making assumptions. The chassis can cope with all of what it has at present (I agree though, that any more and it would make it harder to drive faster, which is why I haven't gone further). With JUST a change of turbo, it would make 630bhp (the inlet then becomes restrictive and would need changing back to a single throttle butterfly)), but that would loose 1000 to 1500 rpm of boost threshold (turbo dependant), reducing the power band. In the vids you have seen, when I want to go sidewaysi, it has the power to allow me to deliberately overdrive the car, but I do this for FUN :). If you watch the other videos on You Tube, you will see that I can drive it quickly and smoothly if required ;).


Having the ability to dial in large amounts
of toe, camber castor and so on will never
make it turn in correctly, or roll in and out
progressively.

I didn't say it did, but it allows me to set the car up to how I want it to drive, the car is very neutral. If I want the front to tuck in (if after attacking the corner too aggressively), I can give a little lift and it does so. It rolls in and out beautifully with the way it is currently set up, and for fun, you can grab it by the scruff of the neck and overdrive the tits off it and it won't bite you - when it does slide, it does so progressively and gives you plenty of warning :).


Looking at the film footage it looks great
fun, but it snatches and wants to
push when not really being pushed,
certainly not the quickest way around the
black stuff, even if does pump out
over 500 BHP.

It snatches, because it has ultra grippy tyres on - they're hard to unstick, and then regain their grip quickly. I think before you comment on how hard it is being pushed, you need to be in the car, as the camera doesn't give a true indication of the speeds ;).


Better traction would be much kinder
to your tyres and then you could
spend less time in the Pits !!

15-20 minutes at a time is more than adequate for me. Because of the speeds it gets up to compared to other cars, the concentration required is on a different level. You have to have your wits about you, as some drivers aren't expecting the closing speeds involved, so you have to think for them as well in order to be safe :). Things happen so much faster, that you'd end up frazzled if you spent too long out on track (or make a mistake and hurt someone). It's not an endurance race, it's for FUN LOL.


Reminds me of the old RS500 nice in
straight line, just do not expect to
much at the twisties.

The RS500 didn't seem to do so badly against it's old adversary the E30 M3 back in the day - sufficiently so that the regulations were changed to outlaw the car, because to win, race teams realised that they had to have an RS500, which meant that despite it not being a one make race series - you wouldn't have known from the grid line up LOL.


Not convinced on Roller Barrels either,
bit like the Slides V Tb's argument
but each to his own.

The roller barrels create an extremely short intake run. The moment that the throttle is cracked, the engine is having the air forced into it. With a single throttle butterfly, the air has to pressurise the plenum before it enters the engine and although the delay isn't significant, the difference can be felt (hence why it was developed for the "works" cars.


On the S54 for sure you can improve
anything but study the S54 closely and
you will see that it was not so bad
straight out the box, areas for
improvemnet for sure, but a CSL
with 360 bhp and refined mechanical grip
will be much quicker on Track
than one with 400 bhp and a set
of Billies bolted on.

Same sort of issues like your Escort.

Regards,

The Gorilla.


I thought you were a Cecil expert ;)?

Firstly the claimed factory figure is 355bhp (360PS) and secondly, very few make that figure ;). When I get one, rest assured it will have extremely well considered modifications - just like my Escort ;).

[northernjim]

Again you're making assumptions LOL. The tyres get hot before anything else does (as you can see from this video)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4onGXhF_oU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
It beeps at the start because the pressures have been dropped and it's giving the low warning alarm. Once they get up to pressure (with some heat in them) it then turns off. Towards the end of the session, the tyres start to overheat (the alarm trips when they go above 80 deg C). However, as I can see some good scalps in the distance, I elect to ignore the alarm until I've reeled them in and had a "play". Not wanting kill the tyres, I then chose to come in and let everything cool for the next session. Not being a car that is used on a daily basis, it has been properly prepped for track work :blalalala:.






Did you slow that video down or something???


If you don't time, how do you know if you are fast???


turbo's feel fast but ultimately, you can't polish a turd

[Curly]

I remember being impressed with your watercooled brakes at the ring, we spoke many years ago in the car park, guess 2003 ish.

Looking at this video of Donny in the Escort the lap times are no faster than a standard CSL so wondering if it just feels miles slower because of the power delivery?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22tqRTDxCbc&list=UUMJdbe1Kky5WsSI2QyEumMA&index=11

For what it is worth, I think a Drexler plated diff is the best money you can spend on a road going M3, traction is so much better, and miles more predictable when it lets go too.

Wow mick what an awesome vid! Carn't believe how fast ya took them Kramer curves:notworthy:And ya braking into the turns was unreal,how many G's ya pulling? Great work fella:supz:
Carn't wait till ya get a CSL bud,I carn't believe your not a racing already!!!

[shimmy]

Has Lancashire just come out of Hibernation :)

[Curly]

It's been especially cold this winter shim :blalalala:

[shimmy]

It's been especially cold this winter shim :blalalala:

Or just been too busy on the homocycling club weekend trip organisation to Scarborough.

[Pooky]

I've read through this thread twice now, still baffled.

[cantfind1]

Hey Mike......if you want to speak to someone about getting some extra power out of an S54 then give George at Technosport BMW a call...

http://www.technosport.co.uk/

Have a look at his race car engine and the power it develops on an engine dyno....There's a good vid on youtube. This would be too extreme for a road car but somewhere in between would be perfect for you it seems!

If you can find a cheap CSL S54 engine then its a big improvement due to cams and exhaust valves....Just stick it in a standard M3...

[_Nathan_]

Last time I saw that car racing the engine lasted 9 laps before shitting itself so kinda proves thr point. Was very fast though.

[AlexGTT]

Wow mick what an awesome vid! Carn't believe how fast ya took them Kramer curves:notworthy:And ya braking into the turns was unreal,how many G's ya pulling? Great work fella:supz:
Carn't wait till ya get a CSL bud,I carn't believe your not a racing already!!!

I thought similar.

How's the scalp bag looking John?:smokin:

Has Lancashire just come out of Hibernation :)

I think he's only opened one eye. Wait till he's fully awake.:wink:

[shimmy]

I think he's only opened one eye. Wait till he's fully awake.:wink:

Japs?

[AlexGTT]

Japs?

Ol' one eye?

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Quote - ''I thought you were a Cecil expert ?

Firstly the claimed factory figure is 355bhp (360PS) and secondly, very few make that figure.....


I am no expert on CSL's, never claimed to be,
never said that the std car makes 360 BHP either,
simple search would qualify my own thoughts
on that.
I actually said a CSL with 360 BHP.

So maybe good to heed your own advice on assumptions ?

TB's with Throttle actuators give almost the
same response as Roller Barrels, so its more
bling than really zing.

Your Turbo is heavily modified due to ''heat issues'',
[which was my point not assumption]
and replacing the Turbo Spindles with a larger
spindle made of better material has been
done for years.
Michelotto were doing in the late 80' early 90's.

As regards air temps the reason for asking
for a different mean temp reading was to see
what degregration the engine suffers performace
wise, as large fans blowing nice cool air through
static Charge Cooling in not real world.

As regards the chassis its the mechanical grip that
keeps the ''patch'' in contact.

As I said fun Car, but not for me.

I will watch out for your super S54 though
with great interest.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[chicken]

Geeez I go out for 1 night and its now the zooped-upregister haha

Mike, the csl doesn't need countless pounds spent on power upgrades to make up for development inefficiencies that other manufacturers like fawd might release to market. Do you think ken block drives a fiesta?

Yeah most of us do suspension, brakes etc, but these aren't really necessary. If you want a great stock car, then get a csl, if you want a car to change so far from factory then buy a normal e46 m3.

Strange thread though, but modified some are to the point they can never go back to stock, even engine mods are reversible if you replace it. But not sure you were ever after cages etc etc, just POWER level 9000!!! Which is fun to watch on YouTube but in practise quite futile.

Enjoy here's a 1000hp csl

http://youtu.be/GnGgRSttb6o

[Curly]

I thought similar.

How's the scalp bag looking John?:smokin:



I think he's only opened one eye. Wait till he's fully awake.:wink:

April delivery now :)

[englebert]

I'd just get a normal M3 and put in a V10.

IMO, you get used to just about any power output; it becomes the norm pretty quickly. You've said you have a track car, so what is the point in the CSL? A fast road car which you can not exploit anywhere? Why not just fit space saver wheels all round...will feel like it has 1000bhp.

[Mike R]

Hi,

Quote - ''I thought you were a Cecil expert ?

Firstly the claimed factory figure is 355bhp (360PS) and secondly, very few make that figure.....


I am no expert on CSL's, never claimed to be,
never said that the std car makes 360 BHP either,
simple search would qualify my own thoughts
on that.
I actually said a CSL with 360 BHP.

So maybe good to heed your own advice on assumptions ?

TB's with Throttle actuators give almost the
same response as Roller Barrels, so its more
bling than really zing.
The Cosworth engine only comes with a single throttle butterfly as standard, the roller barrel arrangement is from a works WRC car, it's not standard.


Your Turbo is heavily modified due to ''heat issues'',
[which was my point not assumption]
and replacing the Turbo Spindles with a larger
spindle made of better material has been
done for years.
Michelotto were doing in the late 80' early 90's.

Der, of course, it's a track car, so it's required. I didn't say it was cutting edge, I just clarified your assumption that all the parts wouldn't be up to scratch :gayfight:.



As regards air temps the reason for asking
for a different mean temp reading was to see
what degregration the engine suffers performace
wise, as large fans blowing nice cool air through
static Charge Cooling in not real world.

It suffers very little, as it has water injection as per the works cars, which activates at 44 deg C. This has two 0.6mm jets supplied by a 6.8 bar pump (to ensure that it can overcome the boost pressure, which inject a fine water mist into the inlet charge, which maintains the charge temps around this figure. However, as explained to you earlier, I have yet to have this come on since fitting the larger capacity intercooler. So the real world figures match the dyno ;). In fact in the vids, you can see the charge temps displayed on the read-out in the centre of the dash ;).


As regards the chassis its the mechanical grip that
keeps the ''patch'' in contact.

And the aero ;). The Escort is one of the first cars that had negative lift (downforce).


As I said fun Car, but not for me.

I will watch out for your super S54 though
with great interest.

Regards,

The Gorilla.
It is, but it's too focused - as you can hear in the videos, it's harsh and noisy - hence why I want something that is a little more of a compromise. The E90 is just too far the other way :hahaha:.

It does seem that there are too few gains to be had from the engine, so I may end up just being a sheep yet ;).

[Mike R]

If anyone is taking their Cecil to the Snetterton track day with Stu (Bealo) in June, I'd appreciate a couple of passenger laps and would be glad to reciprocate (if you can stomach my inferior driving :gayfight: ) :).

[alexk]

It does seem that there are too few gains to be had from the engine, so I may end up just being a sheep yet ;).

I believe we all said this some pages ago, but after all we are just CSL owners for some years :whistle:

[chicken]

And the aero ;). The Escort is one of the first cars that had negative lift (downforce).



Uhuh... But can it do this?

http://youtu.be/7ve5NBSayHI

[Mike R]

I believe we all said this some pages ago, but after all we are just CSL owners for some years :whistle:

Hence why I'm questioning real world owners ;). We don't appear to have heard from many modified peeps yet though :(.

[Pooky]

We don't appear to have heard from many modified peeps yet though :(.

Because there aren't any?

[Mike R]

There are lots on available on ebay:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-E46-M3-3-2-SMG-Engine-S54-B32-/321026618930?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&fits=Plat_Gen%3AE46|Cars+Type%3AM3+3.2&hash=item4abead7632

Are there any internal differences between a CSL engine and a normal M3?

[alexk]

Hence why I'm questioning real world owners ;). We don't appear to have heard from many modified peeps yet though :(.

I don't mean to sound funny or something, but many of us explained why modifying the S54 is a costly and pointless process.
Now you are questioning why people with modifications don't write their experience... I am not sure what you haven't understood up to now ?

A mate from Greece did the whole shebang. I will ping him to write something if he wants.
He had to rebuild the engine a few times.

Edit : you are still unaware of the CSL vs. M3 engine differences. Maybe start with what the OEM engine has next time :)

[Mike R]

I don't mean to sound funny or something, but many of us explained why modifying the S54 is a costly and pointless process.
Now you are questioning why people with modifications don't write their experience... I am not sure what you haven't understood up to now ?

A mate from Greece did the whole shebang. I will ping him to write something if he wants.
He had to rebuild the engine a few times.

Edit : you are still unaware of the CSL vs. M3 engine differences. Maybe start with what the OEM engine has next time :)

Well that is because there seems to be conflicting information out there. I'm not after another 100bhp, but as mentioned, as close to a real 400bhp as possible. This seems to be almost achievable with cams, full exhaust system and mapping (384bhp has been quoted earlier in this thread with these mods), so I assumed that making the full 400bhp could be achieved with this, combined with a slight increase in compression ratio and some porting of the head.

Same with the engine differences, it states that the internal differences are only the cams, but I have also read elsewhere of mention of the valves being bigger, but not seen confirmation of this.

[alexk]

Well that is because there seems to be conflicting information out there. I'm not after another 100bhp, but as mentioned, as close to a real 400bhp as possible. This seems to be almost achievable with cams, full exhaust system and mapping (384bhp has been quoted earlier in this thread with these mods), so I assumed that making the full 400bhp could be achieved with this, combined with a slight increase in compression ratio and some porting of the head.

Same with the engine differences, it states that the internal differences are only the cams, but I have also read elsewhere of mention of the valves being bigger, but not seen confirmation of this.

Some searching wouldn't be bad.

Here is the list of differences CSL list (http://clubcsl.com/index.php/m3csl/6-m3-csl-differences)
The list was compiled mainly by Tom aka NZ_M3 and some other members.

The engine differences.
- Engine block (supposedly picked from the least flawed cast) – The blocks have the same part numbers as M3, Z4, but the full short block is a different part number 11007833675
- Engine head (exhaust valve and intake/exhaust cams - longer duration, same lift) – intake cam shaft 11317835041 exhaust cam shaft 11317835043 Exhaust Valve 11347833676 (30,5/5,95mm) – the valve springs are exactly the same
- Intake plenum (carbon airbox as we like to call it) Air Collector 11617833496 filter 13727838625 The other half of the carbon box: 11617833497 and control unit 11617833498 all the other ducting 11617833646; 11617833645; 11617833648; 13717896774 intake grill 51117895883
- Extractors/Headers (same as post 2005 M3s and Z4) 11627833500; 11627833643
- Cat converter (200 cell) 18307833673
- X pipe, resonators (thinner material - slightly lighter) 18107833503
- Rear muffler - slightly lighter 18107833504
- Different ECU - 25% more capacity 12147837328; 12147834982
- Pseudo Alpha N engine management (delete of MAF, but still runs a MAP sensor, and air temp sensor 13621739510- debate as to whether this is just for idle control however) MAP sensor part number 13627833561

Again, I don't understand why you believe that you will achieve 400bhp with cams, remap and full exhaust. Even with increased compression ratio.
This is daydreaming (the BMW Motorsport engine makes this figure).
Tuners obviously will tweak the dyno parameters to show big gains.
With cams, remap, full exhaust system, you are looking at 10ish bhp from stock.

[Mike R]

Some searching wouldn't be bad.

Here is the list of differences CSL list (http://clubcsl.com/index.php/m3csl/6-m3-csl-differences)
The list was compiled mainly by Tom aka NZ_M3 and some other members.

The engine differences.
- Engine block (supposedly picked from the least flawed cast) – The blocks have the same part numbers as M3, Z4, but the full short block is a different part number 11007833675
- Engine head (exhaust valve and intake/exhaust cams - longer duration, same lift) – intake cam shaft 11317835041 exhaust cam shaft 11317835043 Exhaust Valve 11347833676 (30,5/5,95mm) – the valve springs are exactly the same
- Intake plenum (carbon airbox as we like to call it) Air Collector 11617833496 filter 13727838625 The other half of the carbon box: 11617833497 and control unit 11617833498 all the other ducting 11617833646; 11617833645; 11617833648; 13717896774 intake grill 51117895883
- Extractors/Headers (same as post 2005 M3s and Z4) 11627833500; 11627833643
- Cat converter (200 cell) 18307833673
- X pipe, resonators (thinner material - slightly lighter) 18107833503
- Rear muffler - slightly lighter 18107833504
- Different ECU - 25% more capacity 12147837328; 12147834982
- Pseudo Alpha N engine management (delete of MAF, but still runs a MAP sensor, and air temp sensor 13621739510- debate as to whether this is just for idle control however) MAP sensor part number 13627833561

Again, I don't understand why you believe that you will achieve 400bhp with cams, remap and full exhaust. Even with increased compression ratio.
This is daydreaming (the BMW Motorsport engine makes this figure).
Tuners obviously will tweak the dyno parameters to show big gains.
With cams, remap, full exhaust system, you are looking at 10ish bhp from stock.


I found that just after posting LOL :).

I didn't say I believed that 400bhp was achievable with those things, I said that if 384bhp was achievable, then I thought that with further tuning (porting and a c/r increase), then MAYBE nearly 400bhp is possible. However, if you're suggesting that the 384bhp is pure fiction, then obviously that doesn't bode so well :(.

I don't do tweaking of figures, any work carried out would be transparent and on an engine dyno.

However, I've got to find a car first :).

[jibm]

John Thorn claimed close to 400 BHP for his n/a CSL...many many moons ago perhaps contact him??

Mods..please delete my account and membership on the register after this post....












Only kidding...:hahaha::hahaha:

[AlexGTT]

Like most have said, save your money and concentrate on other areas of the car. There's far more speed in set up, suspension, lightness, etc. Throwing money at an already (relatively) maxed out and optimised engine is chucking good money after bad. It's only a 3.2 6 cyl. What is expected?

Loaded CSL is supercharged and fast but how many engines has it been through?

Fun and speed is not in a straight line, at least it isn't with a CSL/M3. You only have to look at what can be achieved with a std (mechanically) car, suspension, AP's (or similar), Cups, square wheel set up and geo by someone who knows what they are doing to see far more speed.

[shimmy]

John Thorn claimed close to 400 BHP for his n/a CSL...many many moons ago perhaps contact him??

Mods..please delete my account and membership on the register after this post....



Only kidding...:hahaha::hahaha:

As a site sponsor he can claim whatever he likes (phones off the hook to lawyers tomorrow!) :thumbs:

[chicken]

Actually mike, I know a guy who recently built a supercharged m3, making 530bhp, and its got everything, AP's, intrax, 2 set wheels, caged, harnesses, recaro's etc etc and he is selling because he bought a catamaran 500 or whatever

I did brands with him, it is rapid and handles well. Is this something you'd be interested in?
It was built by Simpsons so workmanship is tops

Also I have the magazine that has the 400bhp csl in it, only because I now own that car or sort of lol

Will upload some bits from it,

PS. HP doesn't make a car fast, just saying

[alexk]

John Thorn claimed close to 400 BHP for his n/a CSL...many many moons ago perhaps contact him??


What was the series name ? "come tune with me" ?

:-D:-D:-D No it was "come dine with me" :notworthy:

I asked a mate if he wants to write his S54 saga (crankshaft, conrods, pistons, compression ratio, porting, valves, valvetrain etc).


One more point here for our friends that have the steering wheel on the wrong side of the car.
RHD cars should produce less BHP (I can't give a figure, it would be complicated to test/quantify this) than LHD ones,
due to the difference in the rear exhaust manifold (cylinders 4-6).
RHD E36 M3s also had similar 'issue'.

[NZ_M3]

I've been following this thread with some interest but mainly because I can't quite understand the need and obsession you have over needing 400hp for the s54? Is it purely for bragging rights or are you just intent on running the very extreme of everything and are happy to deal with the compromises and consequences?

I hardly think a csl with 386hp vs 400hp makes that much of a difference on most circuits.

To use the analogy of Formula 1, if every F1 driver on the 2012 grid thought like you did they'd all want to drive for Mercedes Petronas AMG W03 (made most horsepower but didn't handle) rather than Redbull's RB8 ....

If you can drop the E46 chassis to 1100kg with cage and running gear and a spectacular handling package, i am fairly sure you'd be one if not the fastest CSL out there even with stock horse power.

[chicken]

I've been following this thread with some interest but mainly because I can't quite understanding the need and obsession you have over needing 400hp for the s54? Is it purely for bragging rights or are you just intent on running the very extreme of everything and are happy to deal with the compromises and consequences?

I hardly think a csl with 386hp vs 400hp makes that much of a difference on most circuits.

To use the analogy of Formula 1, if every F1 driver on the 2012 grid thought like you did they'd all want to drive for Mercedes Petronas AMG W03 (made most horsepower but didn't handle) rather than Redbull's RB8 ....

If you can drop the E46 chassis to 1100kg with cage and running gear and a spectacular handling package, i am fairly sure you'd be one if not the fastest CSL out there even with stock horse power.

Agreed!

While we're on the topic of weight, have any of you actually weighed your CSL's ? If so, how heavy?

[_Nathan_]

1100 would be going some I think.

Seb - mine was 1420 as a road car with 2/3rd tank fual, 1250-1260 no fuel last time I raced it with heater box, SMG and OEM loom, and I hope 1200 or less once build up from current state.

[AlexGTT]

Agreed!

While we're on the topic of weight, have any of you actually weighed your CSL's ? If so, how heavy?

Yep, 1394kgs with 1/3 tank of fuel.

[Bounce]

Yep, 1394kgs with 1/3 tank of fuel.Is that with you in it Alex.

[alexk]

1420kgs with full tank (AP racing front-rear brakes and SS Race lightweight exhaust).

[chicken]

Yeah I got 1525, full tank + driver, works out to around, 1390kg.

Agree 1100 would be an achievement. Would be nice though. :)

[shimmy]

Mine was 1440kg 1/4 tank no driver, but in 2010 got her to 1340kg 1/4 tank no driver (or anything else come to that)

[chicken]

This thread has become a lot more exciting, for a second I thought my cage was making my car fatter than it should be :)

[digi]

I get what the OP wants, but the CSL is pretty much out of the box decent setup. As mentioned over and over, the chassis, brakes, exhaust are where improvements can be had. Unlike a stock E46 M3 which is design as a all rounder, the CSL as a package is focused. I like to mod, but I find as is its pretty lovely.

As for the power thing, I just brought other toys to satisfy that box.

POWER-TO-WEIGHT + DRIVER CAPABILITY = SOLUTION FOR SPEED. :hahaha:

[_Nathan_]

I remembered this video earlier.

380bhp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEoJTRKeTes&feature=youtu.be

[KPNUTZ]

Nice, well on it! What gearbox is it?

[_Nathan_]

Drenth DG400 Sequential with Geartronics paddleshift & MoTeC M800 (One of our customers, we are Geartronics and MoTeC dealers)

[KPNUTZ]

Lovely bit of kit, looks genuinely rapid.

[englebert]

Yep, looked very quick to me!

[E46CSL]

Drenth DG400 Sequential with Geartronics paddleshift & MoTeC M800 (One of our customers, we are Geartronics and MoTeC dealers)

Awesome car/ video :notworthy:

[Mike R]

If a race car on slicks isn't quicker than a road car on fully treaded road tyres, that gets driven too and from track days, you're obviously doing it wrong ;).

[_Nathan_]

Slicks aren't worth 11 seconds a lap :blalalala:

Point of video was to illustrate that chassis, brakes and transmission/diff is the way to go and that with moderate power, a well developed chassis, the ability to get the power down and a good driver an e46 can be fast :smt055

[shimmy]

Slicks aren't worth 11 seconds a lap :blalalala:

Point of video was to illustrate that chassis, brakes and transmission/diff is the way to go and that with moderate power, a well developed chassis, the ability to get the power down and a good driver an e46 can be fast :smt055

So if 83SY is dong mid 1m 17s in a CSL with AP and Intrax, what does he do with a well sorted road CSL and. Race car?

[Mike R]

Slicks aren't worth 11 seconds a lap :blalalala:

Point of video was to illustrate that chassis, brakes and transmission/diff is the way to go and that with moderate power, a well developed chassis, the ability to get the power down and a good driver an e46 can be fast :smt055

I don't mean this disrespectfully, but I would NEVER do what you have done to a CSL - I'd have sacrificed a standard E46 M3 and not even given it a moment's thought.

My car is completely road legal, taxed with full interior. I could easily turn it into something as focused as the car in the video above, but as I have stated, I don't time my car, it is used for FUN. If I wanted to be the fastest thing on track, I'd strip 150kg out of it (not add 20kg of sound deadening ;)), fit different springs, have the dampers revalved, have a set of wheels with slicks on and trailer it everywhere LOL.

Given the above, I'm hardly going to be even half as radical with a CSL as the Cossie ;). I just wanted to have a bit more power so that you have "options". By this I mean:
i) drive fast and smooth
ii) drive slower, but have sufficient power to make the car "dance" at will.
Both as and when the mood takes it.

[_Nathan_]

He is depressingly fast!

[_Nathan_]

If it helps Mike, I wouldn't have done it in retrospect either, I'd have bought an e46 shell and left my CSL alone, you live and learn :beer:

[shimmy]

If it helps Mike, I wouldn't have done it in retrospect either, I'd have bought an e46 shell and left my CSL alone, you live and learn :beer:

Heart ruling head and all that :)

[Mike R]

If it helps Mike, I wouldn't have done it in retrospect either, I'd have bought an e46 shell and left my CSL alone, you live and learn :beer:

I know exactly what slippery slope you get on, my car was once bog standard ;).

[SamT]

Hi Mike

I know that this is not really what your asking, but for my 2 penniworth.....I went down the modifying a standard M3 route to get my track car, and now have an M3 that weighs in at around 1350KG (.33 in the tank) allegedly has the magical 400bhp NA, Nitron R3 Schirmer suspension, Alcon CSL cup brakes with them stupidly expensive PF pads, Drexler plated diff, Solid Schirmer bushes, etc, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah...........Yes, she is pretty handy on the track , but fecking horrible to drive there.......and to be totally honest, from what i've experienced from dicking about on track with the CSL boys, me having a few (supposed) extra BHP makes no sodding difference whatsoever.....FACT.....and you aint gonna get bored driving one.....EVER!

Like you, (and for similar reasons) i'm now thinking of getting a CSL, and will be carrying out the minimum of Mods.... Brakes, exhaust, Pooky suspension ;) .....But that will be it!....It will be a joy to drive to the Ring, and a joy to go round it!!......a CSL is a pretty unique thing to begin with, and I seriously believe you've got to be mental to go beyond the generally accepted bounds of modifying one.......but each to their own i suppose.

Good luck though mate........love the Escort!!!

ATB
Sam

[Mike R]

Hi Mike

I know that this is not really what your asking, but for my 2 penniworth.....I went down the modifying a standard M3 route to get my track car, and now have an M3 that weighs in at around 1350KG (.33 in the tank) allegedly has the magical 400bhp NA, Nitron R3 Schirmer suspension, Alcon CSL cup brakes with them stupidly expensive PF pads, Drexler plated diff, Solid Schirmer bushes, etc, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah...........Yes, she is pretty handy on the track , but fecking horrible to drive there.......and to be totally honest, from what i've experienced from dicking about on track with the CSL boys, me having a few (supposed) extra BHP makes no sodding difference whatsoever.....FACT.....and you aint gonna get bored driving one.....EVER!

Like you, (and for similar reasons) i'm now thinking of getting a CSL, and will be carrying out the minimum of Mods.... Brakes, exhaust, Pooky suspension ;) .....But that will be it!....It will be a joy to drive to the Ring, and a joy to go round it!!......a CSL is a pretty unique thing to begin with, and I seriously believe you've got to be mental to go beyond the generally accepted bounds of modifying one.......but each to their own i suppose.

Good luck though mate........love the Escort!!!

ATB
Sam

Hi Sam,
Actually, you've pretty much come to the same conclusion as I have (just with a different track car). Like your M3, my Escort is too focused to enjoy driving on long journeys to the 'Ring and back (I'm not getting any younger LOL). The CSL is going to replace the Escort for that aspect of things, where the Escort will still be used for UK track days :).

[SamT]

Hi Sam,
Actually, you've pretty much come to the same conclusion as I have (just with a different track car). Like your M3, my Escort is too focused to enjoy driving on long journeys to the 'Ring and back (I'm not getting any younger LOL). The CSL is going to replace the Escort for that aspect of things, where the Escort will still be used for UK track days :).

That's what i thought Mike, and as i've thrown a load of cash at eeking out a few more HP from the S54 thought i would try and persuade you not to bother ;) ...... although, the main difference i've noticed from doing the engine mods is that she certainly picks up rev's faster (not motorbike quick, but much improved), but a downside is that she hates being held around the 3k-3.5k range (flat as)...which unfortunately is pottering about town and motorway cruising speeds......so a right pain on the road..........obviously everyone is different, but i just cant see how you would get bored in a standard CSL, and don't forget you are going from 4WD back to just RWD, so she's alot more fun anyway.....if you get my drift :hahaha:

If you want to see it i've got a PDF of the graphs from the Dyno, pm me your email and i'll send em over.

ATB
Sam

[Mike R]

I have an E90 M3 as well, so love a bit of power oversteer :).

PM sent :thumbs:.

[_Nathan_]

e90 is a proper hooligan, great for skids.

[Curly]

I remembered this video earlier.

380bhp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEoJTRKeTes&feature=youtu.be

Great vid Nathan:)

[alexk]

allegedly has the magical 400bhp NA

Hi Sam.
Can you share what you have done to achieve the 400bhp ?

[SamT]

Hi Sam.
Can you share what you have done to achieve the 400bhp ?

Hi Alex.....It's all Witchcraft to me mate ;).....seriously, i can and will go into details, but not just yet, bit of a legal issue pending so i've been advised not to go into any of it on open forums at the moment...sorry.....all i can say is that there was nothing that i thought was out of the ordinary....starting off with a very good standard engine (in terms of cylinder wear etc) is a must, then obviously replicating where possible the CSL version, bit of reciprocating mass reduction , and some exhaust trickery and then a damn good mapping......simples innit :thumbs:

btw, the only reason I'm saying allegedly is that i have a healthy dose of cynicism on dyno testing.... I'm not saying it doesn't have it, just I've not had it verified by anyone totally independent yet.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Quote- '' btw, the only reason I'm saying allegedly is that i have a healthy dose of cynicism on dyno testing..''



Made me chuckle.

Fearrari, Porsche et al, there all at it.

Go dyno a 458 or GT2 on a fully calibrated
independent Dyno operated without
all the Trickery, and you'll be demanding a refund for
all the missing ponies !!

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Mike R]

Hi,

Quote- '' btw, the only reason I'm saying allegedly is that i have a healthy dose of cynicism on dyno testing..''



Made me chuckle.

Fearrari, Porsche et al, there all at it.

Go dyno a 458 or GT2 on a fully calibrated
independent Dyno operated without
all the Trickery, and you'll be demanding a refund for
all the missing ponies !!

Regards,

The Gorilla.

That's why I have all my engines mapped in the controlled environment of an engine dyno cell.

It's the only way you can get repeatability, along with being able to hold the engine at full load at any rpm increment to check if any improvements have been made.

Also the problem with lots of modern day cars is that they go into limp mode if the ECU detects that the front wheels have any large speed disparity between the rear ones (adversely affecting power figures). And there are very few rolling roads in this country that have a linked system that drives the rollers to make the front wheels rotate at the same speed.

If you're going to use a rolling road, it's best to get friendly with an independent one and stick with using the same place / operator all the time. Otherwise you'll just get conflicting figures from different rolling roads anyway LOL.

[alexk]

That's why I have all my engines mapped in the controlled environment of an engine dyno cell.

It's the only way you can get repeatability, along with being able to hold the engine at full load at any rpm increment to check if any improvements have been made.

Also the problem with lots of modern day cars is that they go into limp mode if the ECU detects that the front wheels have any large speed disparity between the rear ones (adversely affecting power figures). And there are very few rolling roads in this country that have a linked system that drives the rollers to make the front wheels rotate at the same speed.

If you're going to use a rolling road, it's best to get friendly with an independent one and stick with using the same place / operator all the time. Otherwise you'll just get conflicting figures from different rolling roads anyway LOL.

I guess you don't know M3 E46 + CSL have dyno mode in the ECU so as you can dyno the car on a rolling road dyno.

[shane@mbtech]

I guess you don't know M3 E46 + CSL have dyno mode in the ECU so as you can dyno the car on a rolling road dyno.

Engine dyno is a completely different thing to a rolling road.

[alexk]

Engine dyno is a completely different thing to a rolling road.

I know :thumbs:

[ando]

Hi Mike

You probably don't remember me, I brought some bits off you about 7 years ago for my Cossie'd Xr4i. Suspension and Shims for the rear beam. Chatted to you at the ring about the lads I was with in there CSL's, only saw you on track once that weekend, you were on the side waiting to get towed. lol drive shaft I think?

Anyway, I have gone down the Shrick Cams, Live Map, Standard back box, race cats, as well as ap's, intax, half cage etc. the work was done by a very repected german tuner at the ring with a lot of csl tuning and m3 experience. anyway on the dyno print out he gave me it made 387bhp.

I have just this week ran in a new standard engine, as he put the cams in a none standard position and ended up burning out the solenoids and the piston hit the vavles, among other school boy error the old engine was pretty much scrap.

The way this new motor feels, total seal piston rings, multi layer head gasket. I would say its just as quick after spending the day on track at siverstone today.

I honestly wouldn't bother to much, but if you want to speak to someone who has a 415bhp engine, ring Will at Geoff Steele Racing, he'll build you one. Top Bloke, along with him and Mr Vanos my cars not being touched by anyone else.

Good to see you Escos is still going strong, hopefully see you on track in you CSl this year.

Cheers


Ando

[Mike R]

Hi Ando,
I remember the woes I was having that year with standard drive shafts, which kept popping out of the CV joints due to the camber we were trying to achieve on the adjustable TCAs. Took some custom GKN drive shafts and some adjustable top mounts in the end before it was finally sorted.

Sounds like you have a really well sorted Cecil, although if you can't trust a top German tuner to get it right, who can you trust LOL.

The more I'm reading, the more I'm being inclined to leave the engine well alone other than for basic optimisation mods.

I'll certainly be going to Germany with the CSL, so perhaps we can meet up again and talk BMWs this time ;).

[digi]

Geoff Steele Racing, haven't heard that name since I last purchased one of their air boxes' for my E36 ///M. Also, Wayne Schofield, top bloke with some serious tuning skills.

[ando]

Hi Ando,

Sounds like you have a really well sorted Cecil, although if you can't trust a top German tuner to get it right, who can you trust LOL.

The more I'm reading, the more I'm being inclined to leave the engine well alone other than for basic optimisation mods.

I'll certainly be going to Germany with the CSL, so perhaps we can meet up again and talk BMWs this time ;).

I think your right about not doing much to it.

Hopefully catch up at the ring, be good to chat shit about cars!! lol

I know one thing though, after all the crap I had with garages in Germany, I'll never be leaving it out there to get any work done again, I'll go get it on a trailer and bring it back to people I trust.

Cheers

Ando

[AlexGTT]

The more I'm reading, the more I'm being inclined to leave the engine well alone other than for basic optimisation mods.



Ah ha. Trust me, best thing you've written in this thread so far. Good decision.:wink:

[shimmy]

Ah ha. Trust me, best thing you've written in this thread so far. Good decision.:wink:

I on the other hand would like to see Mike get it stripped and modded and eeeeek out another 25bhp......but I fear it might cost him tens of £000s.

I'd love to see a reliable road drivable 400bhp n/a s54 but (with all due respect to anybody here who has denied their cSL above 270bhp) I fear it would be impossible.

[Mike R]

Stripping a CSL out beyond the what BMW have is sacrilege IMO ;). All I will be doing is making some additional carbon detailing (all proper pre-preg stuff). I've already bought a Vorsteiner front splitter to get some increased front end grip, but that will be as far as it goes with the external mods - you can't improve on perfection ;).

[AlexGTT]

Excellent Mike. Look forward to seeing the results and meeting you at the odd TD.:-D

[_Nathan_]

Likewise looking forward to seeing the results.

[Hazy]

Interesting thread, its surprising what you can do with a CSL or M3 in my case, I went from a road car with a cage to a proper monster in 3 years. Regarding engines, I've had proper heartache before finally getting the right mix of power/torque and reliability. I sometime wish I had retained the Vanos as my car could be more punchy low down, but the lack of weight (1120kg dry) more than makes up for it.

[Mike R]

Hazy,
Regarding the engine - spill then ;). What is the right compromise :beer: :)?

[Hazy]

Hazy,
Regarding the engine - spill then ;). What is the right compromise :beer: :)?

It is possible to get prob 430bhp from the S54, but it will be a proper screamer, hard to race and impossible to drive on the road.

My engine is about 412bhp, "green" crank (basically BMW motorsport crank) crank knife edged and balanced with some sort of special ceramic shells, huge injectors, steel rods, JE forged pistons, schrick cams (405 and 390 I think), shrick followers, de-vanosed, fully gas flowed, modified inlet manifold MBE engine management (cheap TBH) the list goes on....

The work on the crank makes the engine spin up beautifully, but the lack of weight in the crank does sap some torque as does the lightweight flywheel, but again the lack of weight in the car compensates.

The guy who built my car runs a stroker in his car and its an absolute peach of an engine, but unbelieveably expensive. I think it was running something like 447bhp with something like 350ftlb torque!

[Mike R]

It is possible to get prob 430bhp from the S54, but it will be a proper screamer, hard to race and impossible to drive on the road.

My engine is about 412bhp, "green" crank (basically BMW motorsport crank) crank knife edged and balanced with some sort of special ceramic shells, huge injectors, steel rods, JE forged pistons, schrick cams (405 and 390 I think), shrick followers, de-vanosed, fully gas flowed, modified inlet manifold MBE engine management (cheap TBH) the list goes on....

The work on the crank makes the engine spin up beautifully, but the lack of weight in the crank does sap some torque as does the lightweight flywheel, but again the lack of weight in the car compensates.

The guy who built my car runs a stroker in his car and its an absolute peach of an engine, but unbelieveably expensive. I think it was running something like 447bhp with something like 350ftlb torque!

Tell us more about the stroker engine, as that is what I was thinking along the lines of to make the power reliably and less peaky :).

[Hazy]

Tell us more about the stroker engine, as that is what I was thinking along the lines of to make the power reliably and less peaky :).


http://store.vacmotorsports.com/copy-of-vac---s54-34l--35l-premium-stroker-kit-p2929.aspx

This is just the start though! You will need aftermarket ECU, cams, headwork, custom injectors, the list goes on!!

However having driven Kevin Clarkes title winning M3 back to back with my car the difference is night and day, and the engine would be at home in a race or road car. I left an E92 racecar for dead on the main straight at the nurburgring in it last year :)

[ando]

HI Hazy

I was following you round Silverstone last sunday, I was behind you through Brooklands and Luffield and wishing I had as much front end grip as you did, as you were pulling away and I was understeering! lol.

Nice looking car that is mate.

Cheers

Ando

Interesting thread, its surprising what you can do with a CSL or M3 in my case, I went from a road car with a cage to a proper monster in 3 years. Regarding engines, I've had proper heartache before finally getting the right mix of power/torque and reliability. I sometime wish I had retained the Vanos as my car could be more punchy low down, but the lack of weight (1120kg dry) more than makes up for it.

[Mike R]

What did the stroker engine rev like, as the rod angle ratio goes from 1.56 to 1.43? Does it make it more coarse at the top end? What I really want to know is, did it still feel like an OE engine in nature and driveability / NVH?

[shane@mbtech]

What did the stroker engine rev like, as the rod angle ratio goes from 1.56 to 1.43? Does it make it more coarse at the top end? What I really want to know is, did it still feel like an OE engine in nature and driveability / NVH?

Hazy engine builder is Wayne Gibson
I did give the details on one of the first pages. Give him a bell mike. :beer:

[Mike R]

I want a first-hand unbiased opinion first ;).

[Hazy]

What did the stroker engine rev like, as the rod angle ratio goes from 1.56 to 1.43? Does it make it more coarse at the top end? What I really want to know is, did it still feel like an OE engine in nature and driveability / NVH?

No feels nothing like the OE engine, feels less rev happy but more....muscular if that makes sense, doesnt need revving hard to go like a train, its definately coarser at the top end but its a full on race engine. NVH impossible to gauge coz the whole shebang is solid mounted, zero sound proofing and the Drenth gearbox howls like a banshee!!

As Lawsy said Wayne Gibson is the man to speak to tell him I sent you.

[Hazy]

HI Hazy

I was following you round Silverstone last sunday, I was behind you through Brooklands and Luffield and wishing I had as much front end grip as you did, as you were pulling away and I was understeering! lol.

Nice looking car that is mate.

Cheers

Ando

Whats understeer?? :whistle:

[_Nathan_]

What power was the car running when the 380bhp car drive past it?

Where is the popcorn smiley? ;)

[Hazy]

What power was the car running when the 380bhp car drive past it?

Where is the popcorn smiley? ;)

LOL I was wondering when you would pop up Nath :wanker::-D:-D:-D

[_Nathan_]

Ha ha, too easy Ad :)

[Hazy]

you coming out to play this year mate?

[_Nathan_]

I need more money and time mate, but yeah, hopefully.

[AlexGTT]

I need more money and time mate, but yeah, hopefully.

Pull ya finger out then.:blalalala::-D I'll help pit crew for you............and bring my CSL for spares.:wink:

[chicken]

Also I have the magazine that has the 400bhp csl in it, only because I now own that car or sort of lol

Will upload some bits from it,



took me a while to find it,

http://distilleryimage9.s3.amazonaws.com/f4e155f2958f11e2949722000a1f90e1_7.jpg

http://distilleryimage6.s3.amazonaws.com/e4515f52958f11e2ab3b22000a9f14cb_7.jpg

http://distilleryimage0.s3.amazonaws.com/d98e1132958f11e2af4522000a1f8f13_7.jpg

[northernjim]

Having seen these pictures I now understand where the 400 part comes from...

[shimmy]

Having seen these pictures I now understand where the 400 part comes from...

I can hear the phones ringing at TMS legal!

Are you saying that Thorney lied through his teeth about his car making 400bhp for business reasons?

[DuncanR]

Pm DuncanR.....

He's ok once you know him :thumbs:There you go ... spreading rumours again ! apology for absence.

[RobSadler]

EJ53VSL was my original car that I sold to Thorney. It was a lovely example until TMS tuned into their marketing machine.

[shane@mbtech]

EJ53VSL was my original car that I sold to Thorney. It was a lovely example until TMS tuned into their bullshitting machine.

Say what you think mate:whistle:

[DuncanR]

Say what you think mate:whistle:You bad bugger Lawsy! Saw what you did there.
As the owner of one of the more "modded" CSL's on here.... I have nothing to add to this thread !:hahaha:

Apart from the rear end brace, all mods were carried out prior to me purchasing the vehicle, the only mods carried out by me were :-
1. blow the engine up.
2. Blow the gearbox up.
3. Fook the diff up.
4. Fook the front bumper, bonnet, radiator, oil cooler up when I struck a bird !;)

[chicken]

EJ53VSL was my original car that I sold to Thorney. It was a lovely example until TMS tuned into their marketing machine.

shes a bit of a unique machine these days after being brought back to life. and NOT running anything more than standard CSL bhp minus the escaped horsey's

[RobSadler]

shes a bit of a unique machine these days after being brought back to life. and NOT running anything more than standard CSL bhp minus the escaped horsey's

I did see her at a Brands Media Day in full race trim. What do you use it for now ? Is it still road legal ?

[Bounce]

You bad bugger Lawsy! Saw what you did there.
As the owner of one of the more "modded" CSL's on here.... I have nothing to add to this thread !:hahaha:

Apart from the rear end brace, all mods were carried out prior to me purchasing the vehicle, the only mods carried out by me were :-
1. blow the engine up.
2. Blow the gearbox up.
3. Fook the diff up.
4. Fook the front bumper, bonnet, radiator, oil cooler up when I struck a bird !;):hahaha::hahaha:

[chicken]

I did see her at a Brands Media Day in full race trim. What do you use it for now ? Is it still road legal ?

yeah fully rebuilt and road legal
there's a few pics in my album

[hoshy]

Interesting thread.

Mike, did you consider putting the E90 V8 in? Sacrilege to many/most but I always thought that would be a nice way to up the power.

As I understand it the V8 is alloy block, so lighter, and a perhaps a bit shorter being a V (I'd like evidence of that if anybody has figure - don't want to spread bullshit :))

to me that sounds like you'd be getting the comfortable road use, more power and potentially better handling. I'm sure there are aftermarket ways to get the induction noise back too.

[_Nathan_]

It is lighter and shorter.

We did the electronics on this:

http://www.racedatasystems.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/IMG_2166-700x466.jpg

Made good power :supz:

[hoshy]

very nice. Good to know I got my facts right - I assume that was with some kind of 3rd party race gearbox? Would be interested to know more.

On a slightly different approach - I also though a 7sp double clutch box from the facelift 335i would be a nice swap onto the S54. It mates up to the N55, so probably needs a custom bell but you might get lucky :) not sure if this is the same box the M3 gets.

The big problem would be the electronics but you seem to work in that field so might comment on feasibility - I imagine it would require extensive development and parts will be expensive for the next few years at least but over time it would be nice to have a 7sp double clutch option for the CSL.

[chicken]

a wise man once said, never be the first to do a modification :-D

[hoshy]

a wise man once said, never be the first to do a modification :-D

Not if you want it fast, cheap, and reliable, no. But if you develop a kit I reckon you could do quite well. A "bolt-in" DCT for SMG II (and maybe SMG I) cars could peak quite a lot of interest in the community.

[_Nathan_]

That was using a sequential dog box on paddles.

I do have a plan for DCT...

[shane@mbtech]

That was using a sequential dog box on paddles.

I do have a plan for DCT...

Share:thumbs:

[_Nathan_]

Not yet :P

[chicken]

Not yet :P

Haha :whistle:

[hoshy]

Looking forward to hearing the DCT plans. Would quite happily be a test mule for that.

[Mike R]

Interesting thread.

Mike, did you consider putting the E90 V8 in? Sacrilege to many/most but I always thought that would be a nice way to up the power.

As I understand it the V8 is alloy block, so lighter, and a perhaps a bit shorter being a V (I'd like evidence of that if anybody has figure - don't want to spread bullshit :))

to me that sounds like you'd be getting the comfortable road use, more power and potentially better handling. I'm sure there are aftermarket ways to get the induction noise back too.

I keep thinking about it on a regular basis, but keep discounting it on cost, complexity and noise reasons LOL. You have two choices - aftermarket ECU and dash system or transplanting the E9* item, complete with loom etc.

Because I already have a track car to this kind of level and because of how I want to use the CSL, I don't fancy the aftermarket route. However, the logistics of using OE stuff is a little daunting. Combined with the fact that I don't like DCT boxes (I had previously hankered after a GTR, but the driving experience and the noise it made changing gear left me cold, and so dissappointingly I knew it wasn't for me), which would leave using the manual box - but for me this moves away from what the CSL is about. Then we move on to the aforementioned "noise" issue:- we have an E90 M3 in the family, and although I like the noise it makes, I LOVE the sound of the straight six and the "buzz saw" induction of the CSL when the flap opens :smt055.

I'm still trying to find someone who can PROPERLY live map the OE ECU, as then I can explore the options I have in mind :).

[hoshy]

I keep thinking about it on a regular basis, but keep discounting it on cost, complexity and noise reasons LOL. You have two choices - aftermarket ECU and dash system or transplanting the E9* item, complete with loom etc.

Because I already have a track car to this kind of level and because of how I want to use the CSL, I don't fancy the aftermarket route. However, the logistics of using OE stuff is a little daunting. Combined with the fact that I don't like DCT boxes (I had previously hankered after a GTR, but the driving experience and the noise it made changing gear left me cold, and so dissappointingly I knew it wasn't for me), which would leave using the manual box - but for me this moves away from what the CSL is about. Then we move on to the aforementioned "noise" issue:- we have an E90 M3 in the family, and although I like the noise it makes, I LOVE the sound of the straight six and the "buzz saw" induction of the CSL when the flap opens :smt055.

I'm still trying to find someone who can PROPERLY live map the OE ECU, as then I can explore the options I have in mind :).

I did toy with the idea of putting manual box in the CSL too... :)

Well, I think the full E90 conversion has merit but if it's not for you that's fair enough.

thorney's suggests they tweak their maps on the dyno but it doesn't seem like a proper live mapping (http://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/tuning/bmw/m3/e46/e46-m3-csl-power.shtml)

Evolve do a custom mapping on their stage 3 package which suggests the ability to tweak the parameters as above but don't state live mapping specifically (http://www.evolveautomotive.com/engine-ecu_880/tuning-packages_881/)

I'd be interested to know what else you come up with - my father has a dyno and does superchips and a bit of club motorsport standalone stuff but doesn't have kit for the OEM remaps live or otherwise - would like to find some software for this that I could have a play with to make a good map for the relatively cheap 102 octane fuel we can get in Germany. Something to make visiting the family at christmas a bit more interesting.

[0-60Motorsports]

Have any of you CSL owners gotten a tune from SAL @ EVOLVE? If not I highly recommend that.

[custom-d]

Not sure if this has already been posted, not a csl but never seen an m3 with this much power before, insane...

http://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/showthread.php?t=64867

[shimmy]

Not sure if this has already been posted, not a csl but never seen an m3 with this much power before, insane...

http://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/showthread.php?t=64867

Banned for life :-D

[Chad]

Just read the this 22 page post nothing better to do, “brilliant “ did anybody ever really improve on the csl engine after this post back in 2013. ??? Or is this one better left in the past:whistle:

[Chappers]

I highly doubt anyone is anywhere near as brave as they were in 2013 to modify a CSL in 2018 unfortunately, so probably not a lot has changed since then.

[Chad]

Great read for me as I only heard of / joined csl reg a couple years back,, csl was just a car to me , bought it back in 2004 just because I liked the look of it , never give it a thought they were bought for trackday cars ,, was just a good looking car for the time .. just couldn’t part with the thing now regardless of value, ..But a real interesting read for me, as We’ve still got this striped csl motor laying about,, “”must get back to it””. Hopefully there’s some more interesting information out regarding reviving this old post:thumbs::thumbs:

[alexk]

hello

I understand that Butler motorsport can get decent power, close to P54 levels.
I am tempted to take mine for a refresh + modification if I don't find a P54 engine.
So there will be news ;)

[GregorFuk]

hello

I understand that Butler motorsport can get decent power, close to P54 levels.
I am tempted to take mine for a refresh + modification if I don't find a P54 engine.
So there will be news ;)

I have been told this too. But I have also been told that such an engine requires regular rebuilds to stay healthy.

[Mike R]

I went away from forced induction completely and the Cossie was sold three years ago.

As you may be aware, I ended up with a reasonably modified CSL - APs, H&R coilovers, full Supersprint system from the headers back (with all the standard parts tucked safely away) and I love it too bits. The engine is completely standard (I soon realised after much research that it was already on the limit of tuning without a huge amount of money thrown at it, which would not give significantly noticeable returns on a VFM basis (the only thing I miss about an FI car) and would reduce the reliability.

It's not fast, but has perfect poise and balance (a scalpel to the Escort's machete) and the wail of the straight six is one of the best sounding engines in the world (IMO).

The CSL also got me back into NA cars - so much so, that I bought another car with a great engine (the world renowned F20C). A bit of a hairdresser mobile, but revving to 9000rpm never gets tiring - and with double A-arms, the chassis is a peach.

I do miss the Cossie, as it was the always the underdog and surprised LOTS of people, my favourite being the owner of the 750bhp GTR at a charity day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7aweADw2ds

[Trawler]

Linky not working.

Thanks in advance


I went away from forced induction completely and the Cossie was sold three years ago.

As you may be aware, I ended up with a reasonably modified CSL - APs, H&R coilovers, full Supersprint system from the headers back (with all the standard parts tucked safely away) and I love it too bits. The engine is completely standard (I soon realised after much research that it was already on the limit of tuning without a huge amount of money thrown at it, which would not give significantly noticeable returns on a VFM basis (the only thing I miss about an FI car) and would reduce the reliability.

It's not fast, but has perfect poise and balance (a scalpel to the Escort's machete) and the wail of the straight six is one of the best sounding engines in the world (IMO).

The CSL also got me back into NA cars - so much so, that I bought another car with a great engine (the world renowned F20C). A bit of a hairdresser mobile, but revving to 9000rpm never gets tiring - and with double A-arms, the chassis is a peach.

I do miss the Cossie, as it was the always the underdog and surprised LOTS of people, my favourite being the owner of the 750bhp GTR at a charity day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7aweADw2ds