Subframe cracks...

[Steve B]

I've been reading about this issue on here and everywhere else that I came up with on a Google search and I'm now $hitting myself... There seems to be lots of different advice flying about and I'm now not sure what i should be doing/looking for etc or just leaving well alone.

So if I have no cracking do I just get the £300 "fix" as a just incase (do BMW offer this FOC in goodwill?).

If it's cracked do I take it to BMW for a goodwill fix (my cars a 2004 car and has FBMWSH).


Cheers for any help
Steve

[martin770]

From what im lead to believe, take your car to bmw and they will check the subframe FOC, if theres a problem you car will still be under warrenty so sould get fixed foc.
I have heard of a strengthening kit but never seen one.

[Jon8710]

take it to Elmes BMW in cambourne,
Get it booked in with gareth he know exactly what he is looking for,
if its been driven hard in its life the chances are it will have cracks but if it dose its no big deal as long as its done before the 10yr warrenty is up.

mine for instance does not have any but i kind of wish it did because if they apper at the end of 2014 im fucked !:mad:

[GregorJP]

My car is currently with Elms in Bishop's Stortford to repair a cracked subframe under warranty. I am currently driving a pale blue 120i convertible courtesy car and doing my best hairdresser impression.

[rstoughy]

I've been reading about this issue on here and everywhere else that I came up with on a Google search and I'm now $hitting myself... There seems to be lots of different advice flying about and I'm now not sure what i should be doing/looking for etc or just leaving well alone.

So if I have no cracking do I just get the £300 "fix" as a just incase (do BMW offer this FOC in goodwill?).

If it's cracked do I take it to BMW for a goodwill fix (my cars a 2004 car and has FBMWSH).


Cheers for any help
Steve

I asked about this and it's currently getting checked out. They were concerned that should we go ahead and do the "resin injection" and it were to crack at a later date then BMW could come back and refuse a warranty job due us having messed about with the area.

I await the response from the service manager at my dealer.

[Steve B]

I think I'll just get her booked in for a check.....

Worse case it's £895 for a "full monty" repair at Redish Motorsport which looking at their website is a repair that'll last forever and as I intend on keeping the car doesn't seem too bad.:beer:


Steve

[northernjim]

where will you book it in tho? and do you know that they know what they are doing?


As said above Elms is the best place to go:thumbs:

[Steve B]

where will you book it in tho? and do you know that they know what they are doing?


As said above Elms is the best place to go:thumbs:

I'll try Specialist Cars BMW in Stevenage 1st as they are my local dealer and have a bodyshop, failing that Bishops Stortford or Cambridge arn't that far from me.

[Jon8710]

I'll try Specialist Cars BMW in Stevenage 1st as they are my local dealer and have a bodyshop, failing that Bishops Stortford or Cambridge arn't that far from me.


DO NOT GO TO SPECIALIST CARS !!!!!!!!!!!

Bunch of monkeys, serviced my 330d and didnt put any oil back in it

make the effot go to elmes do it properly

[shimmy]

I'll try Specialist Cars BMW in Stevenage 1st as they are my local dealer and have a bodyshop, failing that Bishops Stortford or Cambridge arn't that far from me.

NO.


Elms.

I am south of Spec Cars and it is my closest dealer and I used to go to Murketts and now Elms.

[Steve B]

I'm gonna book it in at Elms.... I like to know the person looking at my car will know what they are looking at and won't fob me off with some bull$hite...

Steve

[Pooky]

My car has been done by Elms, full underfloor replacement even though it only had a small 20mm crack in one place. Took three weeks. I've been over the underside and cant find fault with it. Zero cost.

[Steve B]

Part of me hopes they find an issue because if they don't it's just a problem waiting to happen....

Ah well it's only money and you can't take it with you lol


Steve

[CraigMillwardCroft]

Warranty will fix the subframe problem, the fill is somethiing we have topay for which once fixed is worth doing

[Steve B]

Does anyone know is the replacement section an updated part that will stop any issue in the future??


Steve

[CraigMillwardCroft]

I asked about this and it's currently getting checked out. They were concerned that should we go ahead and do the "resin injection" and it were to crack at a later date then BMW could come back and refuse a warranty job due us having messed about with the area.

I await the response from the service manager at my dealer.

Keep us posted as arranging to get my car checked filled or repaired in Feb along with the MOT :-D

[Steve B]

Spoken to Emma and all I have to do is book the car in on a thursday between 11am - 1pm and they have a look, if there's any cracks at all they photo them and send the pics to BMW HQ and await a reply.

So all I need now is a thursday off work, I have plenty of time as the car isn't 10 years old until 2014.


Steve

[Bounce]

I must get mine checked at Elms before the 10 year cut of point,the next time I'm up there for a service.

[shimmy]

Spoken to Emma and all I have to do is book the car in on a thursday between 11am - 1pm and they have a look, if there's any cracks at all they photo them and send the pics to BMW HQ and await a reply.

So all I need now is a thursday off work, I have plenty of time as the car isn't 10 years old until 2014.


Steve

If your car was register after 1/1/2004 then you have 12 years bodywork warranty anyway.

[Bounce]

Spoken to Emma and all I have to do is book the car in on a thursday between 11am - 1pm and they have a look, if there's any cracks at all they photo them and send the pics to BMW HQ and await a reply.

So all I need now is a thursday off work, I have plenty of time as the car isn't 10 years old until 2014.


SteveIs the 10 year cut off point reg date or build date,ask Emma when your up there Steve.:wink:

[Steve B]

If your car was register after 1/1/2004 then you have 12 years bodywork warranty anyway.

Sweet July 2016 then.... :)

[E46CSL]

NO.

Elms.

I am south of Spec Cars and it is my closest dealer and I used to go to Murketts and now Elms.


3 correct answers :thumbs:

[Steve B]

It's a shame Specialist Cars are cack I live less than a mile from them...

[E46CSL]

It's a shame Specialist Cars are cack I live less than a mile from them...

Like all dealerships, I have no doubt they have some good people, but Murketts and Elms is a safe bet for a CSL.

[Pooky]

After botched warranty work at my local dealer my CSL now always heads to Gareth at Elms despite the 4 hour round trip.

[Steve B]

Like all dealerships, I have no doubt they have some good people, but Murketts and Elms is a safe bet for a CSL.

I do like the idea of a mechanic that knows a car inside out, all I gotta do now is book a Thursday off and pop upto Elms

[Yanto]

Time for another open day !!!!!!!!

[Bounce]

After botched warranty work at my local dealer my CSL now always heads to Gareth at Elms despite the 4 hour round trip.Think yourself lucky it's only 4hrs:bigcry:

[NZ_M3]

The replacement floor is exactly the same as the one already on your car - it was updated in and around 2003 just before the M3 CSL production started.

If you read the official repair instructions from BMW when they replace the whole floor piece (i.e. when the cracks are certified to be more than 25mm), the epoxy resin is injected once the new floor is replaced. Anything less than 25mm they use the epoxy injection as the official bmw 'fix'.

My take on the whole thing, get the epoxy if your floor is clean and free from cracks. If you track your car often - cage the rear.

Do bear in mind once that epoxy is in, you won't be able to weld plates onto it - so if it does crack, it's new floor time.

To summarise:

No crack (but don't track the car that often, and keep on top of rear suspension components and bushes) - use epoxy
No crack, tracks car often, keep on top of rear suspension components and bushes - use epoxy or cage the car when the cracks appears.

Already have cracks (tracks car often) - new floor + epoxy or get the car caged.
Already have cracks but don't track car often - new floor + epoxy.

[adem.csl]

ive had this problem too.at first bmw said it werent warranted due to plates that were welded in,second approach they said it was no longer good will so i involved bmw uk.got it done and wished i hadnt.if you get a spot on bodyshop who know how to weld they can open up the floor from inside the boot weld the cracked or ready to crack area then strengthen that area,close it seal it and no ruining the rest of the car.but if you got no creaks as you change gear get the foam injected.i can post pics where they done mine.was a mess but got it sorted in end,help of solicitors.

[adem.csl]

I cant attach the pics from my phone so look in my photo album.left them there for ya.

[Boarder1]

Had mine checked at Elm's with Gareth yesterday.

Warranty work submitted, now just waiting for BMW approval (fingers crossed).

[Steve B]

How bad was yours??


Steve

[northernjim]

Does anyone know is the replacement section an updated part that will stop any issue in the future??


Steve


Yes it is - so I have been told


The replacement floor is exactly the same as the one already on your car - it was updated in and around 2003 just before the M3 CSL production started.



that's not what I have found.....

old part number was - 41 00 7 030 266 weight 4.8kg

new part number - 41 11 7 000 246 weight 21.3kg

I cannot find the website that told me the date, but it was around 2005 0r 2006 when this new part came into use

[Steve B]

Must be made of gold..... 16.5kgs heavier...:smt104

[alexk]

old part number was - 41 00 7 030 266 weight 4.8kg

new part number - 41 11 7 000 246 weight 21.3kg


Correct

Have a look at number 16 here
http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E46/Coupe/Europe/M3_CSL-S54/LHD/N/2003/september/browse/bodywork/rear_wheelhouse_floor_parts/#41 11 7 000 246

[alexk]

I would appreciate if the guys that had the subframe replaced, send me a pm with their VIN numbers.

[mattCSLnut]

old part number was - 41 00 7 030 266 weight 4.8kg

new part number - 41 11 7 000 246 weight 21.3kg

I cannot find the website that told me the date, but it was around 2005 0r 2006 when this new part came into use

Jim, where are you getting these weight figures from mate ? They look very odd :smt017
When my Cecil got fixed last month @ Elms I spoke to the mechanic who actually does all the repair work and worked on mine. I asked him if the replacement boot floor was at all different to the old one and why the different part number. According to him the replacement boot floor is the same as the old one, it's just the part number that has been super-seeded in & around '05/ '06, a common BMW practice apparently.
What actually fixes any future chassis problems is the structural foam that's injected once the new metal work is welded back in place, which stops the flexing and any future rear chassis/boot floor cracks. :smt023

I suppose U have a few extra years on your CS no L ;) before the 10 year warranty is out but have you had yours checked yet ? :whistle:

[northernjim]

Have a look here Matt

VVVVVVVVV


Have a look at number 16 here
http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E46/Coupe/Europe/M3_CSL-S54/LHD/N/2003/september/browse/bodywork/rear_wheelhouse_floor_parts/#41 11 7 000 246


I know the weights seem to be way different but it's on the tinterweb so it must be true right?????


Reddish Motorsport have told me that it is a different part that they replace it with......?????? So I have no idea what right and what wrong:clown: some things never change eh! :beer:


Mine is in warranty until 2018, and the way I drive it won't break until 2028 :gayfight::hahaha:

[mattCSLnut]

I know the weights seem to be way different but it's on the tinterweb so it must be true right?????
'course it is Jimbo :goodman:




Reddish Motorsport have told me that it is a different part that they replace it with......?????? So I have no idea what right and what wrong:clown: some things never change eh! :beer:

I'd go with what the man @ BMW said. After all, he cut out the old bit and welded in the new bit a few times now so would have/should have noticed any differences, if there were any ;)


Mine is in warranty until 2018, and the way I drive it won't break until 2028 :gayfight::hahaha:

:hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha: get it foam injected, U big girl :gayfight: ;)

[NZ_M3]

that's not what I have found.....

old part number was - 41 00 7 030 266 weight 4.8kg

new part number - 41 11 7 000 246 weight 21.3kg

I cannot find the website that told me the date, but it was around 2005 0r 2006 when this new part came into use

It is exactly the same part, made exactly the same way.

You are looking at the incorrect item numbering - look at item "1" and item "16" the weight is exactly the same at 21.325kg


Repair part, insert, rear axle support41 11 7 000 246 (http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/41117000246/)

Only in conjunction with Pos. 23

When installing in M3 or M3CSL Remove absorber mass
121.325 kg / 47.014 lb


The update was in mid or late 2002 (I can't recall now) but it was just before the CSL came out.

All the new ETKs online now don't show the pre 2002 part from what I can see.

The updated part number is just a supercession - BMW does it all the time to show whether the part is a production or reproduction part - nothing has changed.

Get the injection - it is what stops the flex in that triple layered floor.

[shimmy]

it is exactly the same part, made exactly the same way.

You are looking at the incorrect item numbering - look at item "1" and item "16" the weight is exactly the same at 21.325kg


repair part, insert, rear axle support41 11 7 000 246 (http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/41117000246/)

only in conjunction with pos. 23

when installing in m3 or m3csl remove absorber mass
121.325 kg / 47.014 lb


the update was in mid or late 2002 (i can't recall now) but it was just before the csl came out.

All the new etks online now don't show the pre 2002 part from what i can see.

The updated part number is just a supercession - bmw does it all the time to show whether the part is a production or reproduction part - nothing has changed.

Get the injection - it is what stops the flex in that triple layered floor.


beat me to it :-d

[Steve B]

What actually fixes any future chassis problems is the structural foam that's injected once the new metal work is welded back in place


Is this injected in once you have a new floor fitted or is it just left to crack again??


Steve

[karbonkid]

Is this injected in once you have a new floor fitted or is it just left to crack again??


Steve

Yes the newer repairs now include injection.

[shimmy]

Yes the newer repairs now include injection.

I think original repair also included injection. Mine was done early 2010 and TIS sheet then had injection after new floor, and mine had new floor and injection.

[Steve B]

Ta for clearing that up...... I'm sure they'll be used to lots of questions when I get a chance to take the car in anyway...


Steve

[mattCSLnut]

It is exactly the same part, made exactly the same way.

You are looking at the incorrect item numbering - look at item "1" and item "16" the weight is exactly the same at 21.325kg


Repair part, insert, rear axle support41 11 7 000 246 (http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/41117000246/)

Only in conjunction with Pos. 23

When installing in M3 or M3CSL Remove absorber mass
121.325 kg / 47.014 lb


The update was in mid or late 2002 (I can't recall now) but it was just before the CSL came out.

All the new ETKs online now don't show the pre 2002 part from what I can see.

The updated part number is just a supercession - BMW does it all the time to show whether the part is a production or reproduction part - nothing has changed.

:smt023 Spot on but I beat you to it ;)

Get the injection - it is what stops the flex in that triple layered floor. I thought it was a double layer floor :smt017 rear lower chassis and inside boot floor section over the diff carrier where the foam is injected.

[mattCSLnut]

Is this injected in once you have a new floor fitted or is it just left to crack again??


Steve

NO, nothing is left to crack again. If cracks are detected, you get new metalwork welded in (rear lower chassis + inner boot floor) followed by two stage foam injection to stiffen the hollow space between the two to stop the flexing which causes the cracks to happen in the first place.
If no cracks are detected, I believe BMW recommends foam injection to, a) prevent new cracks appearing... b) save themselves a small fortune, not having to do the full job with new metalwork.
Foam injection is about £300 and is over in 24 hours, most of which is drying time... full job with new metal work, jigging , KDS alignment, foam injection, ect., is about a week and around £5000 :119:

[Steve B]

You'd think that if they inspected a car and found no issue they'd do the injection process FOC.... 2004 cars that have a 12 year warranty are covered for nearly another 4 years so it'd make sense to do that as it seems to be a "when" not "if" situation...


Steve

[CraigMillwardCroft]

You'd think that if they inspected a car and found no issue they'd do the injection process FOC.... 2004 cars that have a 12 year warranty are covered for nearly another 4 years so it'd make sense to do that as it seems to be a "when" not "if" situation...


Steve
Mine is March 2004 will they put it in writing covered for 12 years :whistle:

[mattCSLnut]

You'd think that if they inspected a car and found no issue they'd do the injection process FOC.... 2004 cars that have a 12 year warranty are covered for nearly another 4 years so it'd make sense to do that as it seems to be a "when" not "if" situation...


Steve
You'd think they would, wouldn't you :banghead:

IIRC the cracks are NOT a part of the 12 year anti corrosion warranty you're thinking of (for 2004 onwards registered CSLs) or the pathetic 6 year anti corrosion warranty for 2003 registered CSLs like mine. IIRC the chassis crack repairs are under a separate "Good will" 10 year warranty regardless if it's a 2003 or 2004 onwards reg. date. CSL, otherwise my Cecil wouldn't have got the chassis repair FOC, being a September 2003 registered car with it's now expired :bigcry: measly 6 year anti corrosion warranty.

[Steve B]

Ah thanks for clearing that up..... I'm used to Ford and their shite warranties lol, BMW seems to actually give a damn :beer:

I suppose the way they look at it if they repair as ness its cheaper than a total recall


Steve

[CraigMillwardCroft]

So it looks like the 10yrs only :-D

[mattCSLnut]

Mine is March 2004 will they put it in writing covered for 12 years :whistle:
In relation to the chassis cracks... No :( Regarding corrosion... maybe ;) if you ask nicely.

[mattCSLnut]

So it looks like the 10yrs only :-D
In a word... Yes :smokin:

[CraigMillwardCroft]

In a word... Yes :smokin:
No point in asking nicely :whistle:

[mattCSLnut]

Ah thanks for clearing that up..... I'm used to Ford and their shite warranties lol, BMW seems to actually give a damn :beer:

I suppose the way they look at it if they repair as ness its cheaper than a total recall


Steve

:smt023

BTW, Ford offer warranty ??? Does it expire at the dealer gates ;) as you drive out through them :whistle:

[CraigMillwardCroft]

:smt023

BTW, Ford offer warranty ??? Does it expire at the dealer gates ;) as you drive out through them :whistle:
:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha: If the car gets that far :whistle:

[mattCSLnut]

No point in asking nicely :whistle:
Naa ;) though to be fair to BMW they have been very good & generous with honering their end of the bargain :thumbs:
Porsche are known to void the whole vehicle warranty if you upgrade your brake pads :banghead:

[CraigMillwardCroft]

Naa ;) though to be fair to BMW they have been very good & generous with honering their end of the bargain :thumbs:
Porsche are known to void the whole vehicle warranty if you upgrade your brake pads :banghead:
Don't they come with better brakes to start with though :thumbs:

[mattCSLnut]

:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha: If the car gets that far :whistle:
:hahaha: FORD have thought that one through. It's why their dealerships are a car length away from the front gates :thumbs:

[CraigMillwardCroft]

:hahaha: FORD have thought that one through. It's why their dealerships are a car length away from the front gates :thumbs:
And downhill :thumbs:

[mattCSLnut]

Don't they come with better brakes to start with though :thumbs:
Yep, they do :thumbs: though Textar pads (Porsche OEM) have their limits.
I wonder what OEM pads Porsche recommend/fit to the GT3 RS ? I'd be very impressed if it's Pagid RS29 :smokin:

[mattCSLnut]

And downhill :thumbs:
Ahh... so you've been :thumbs:

[northernjim]

I'm happy to be corrected :beer:



I'm used to it by now.....




You'd think that if they inspected a car and found no issue they'd do the injection process FOC.... 2004 cars that have a 12 year warranty are covered for nearly another 4 years so it'd make sense to do that as it seems to be a "when" not "if" situation...


Steve


That does make sense in the real world, but it would cost them too much ?

[mattCSLnut]

I'm happy to be corrected :beer:



I'm used to it by now.....




I was going to say "Get use to it" ;) but U beat me to it Jimbo :beer:

[northernjim]

At least my ford has never needed any warranty work.... :gayfight:

[mattCSLnut]

At least my ford has never needed any warranty work.... :gayfight:

I'd love to see you try :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha:

[CraigMillwardCroft]

I'd love to see you try :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha:
:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

[NZ_M3]

:smt023 Spot on but I beat you to it ;)

Yes and no - my refers to item 1, yours refers to item 16 - so slightly different. I was pointing out that the weight between the updated part and the old part is the same :-D

I thought it was a double layer floor :smt017 rear lower chassis and inside boot floor section over the diff carrier where the foam is injected.[/quote]

Not if you count the bit just above the rear diff carrier mount inside the boot - layer no.3

The injection goese in between the bottom layer and the intermediate layer.

[Steve B]

I was going to take her to Elms but getting a Thursday off is a serious pain and I'm off today so.....


Took mine into Specialist Cars Hitchin today (they seem to have a decent rep compared to Stevenage) well mines got a hairline crack about 40mm long... So looks like in line for a big new bit lol.. Also going to powerflex poly bush the whole rear whilst I'm at it, rude not to eh lol. They are going to repair the huge stone chip on my roof as well (it's about the size of a 10p coin)

What is a result is the guy doing all the work I've known for about 25 years (i knew he worked for BMW but didn't know where) and he's worked there since he was 16 and has done over 40 E46's so far..!!!



Steve

[shimmy]

I was going to take her to Elms but getting a Thursday off is a serious pain and I'm off today so.....


Took mine into Specialist Cars Hitchin today (they seem to have a decent rep compared to Stevenage) well mines got a hairline crack about 40mm long... So looks like in line for a big new bit lol.. Also going to powerflex poly bush the whole rear whilst I'm at it, rude not to eh lol. They are going to repair the huge stone chip on my roof as well (it's about the size of a 10p coin)

What is a result is the guy doing all the work I've known for about 25 years (i knew he worked for BMW but didn't know where) and he's worked there since he was 16 and has done over 40 E46's so far..!!!



Steve



Why do you want to polybush the car?

[Steve B]

Why do you want to polybush the car?


I'm presuming that after 67,000 miles the std bushes are going to be past their best..?? Would you not recommend the poly route.??? I'm still learning the way of the CSL so I'm always open to suggestions :)

Steve

[Pooky]

Polybushes for trailing arm - maybe...Subframe, again maybe.

The rest? Miles better with OEM.

Personally I'd keep it standard.

[Steve B]

How about the front rear arm bushes and the roll bar mounts (front and rear)...

I was intending doing front and rear

[Pooky]

Polybushes seem to have a following in some places, and I even supply them and BMW ones are popular. But I wouldn't fit them to my car.

[shimmy]

Polybushes seem to have a following in some places, and I even supply them and BMW ones are popular. But I wouldn't fit them to my car.

I can see why you might bother if your car was track only, with cage etc, but otherwise im not sure what it does apart from spoiling the ride

[Steve B]

Spoiling the ride worries me.... As far as I see the car is pretty perfect in std trim...

[dave wilkinson]

your one of the lucky ones :thumbs: can't be many left that haven't been done now. the cut off for most is next year.
stick to standard oem bushes, better quality than powerflex. if they haven't been changed already get the rtab done at the same time.

[NZ_M3]

Just a follow up on this ...

For those of you that still think welding in plates actually helps with this ...

by the way, here's what happened to a HPF car that had the HPF reinforcements welded in. Yikes :jawdrop:

http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp128/Kdaddy69/Subframe%20Failure/hpftrunk1-1.jpg
http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp128/Kdaddy69/Subframe%20Failure/hpftrunk2-1.jpg
http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp128/Kdaddy69/Subframe%20Failure/hpftrunk3-1.jpg
http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp128/Kdaddy69/Subframe%20Failure/hpftrunk4-1.jpg
http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp128/Kdaddy69/Subframe%20Failure/hpftrunk5-1.jpg

[Steve B]

:119::119::119::119::119::119::119:

Shit the bed thats some serious repair work required there now...!!!!!! I wouldn't want that repair bill:(

[Mark CSL]

Those pictures make the boot floor look like it is made of cardboard lol

[mattCSLnut]

Those pictures make the boot floor look like it is made of cardboard lol

So Clarkson was right all along ??? ;) :hahaha:

[Bounce]

Those pictures make the boot floor look like it is made of cardboard lol:hahaha::hahaha:

[Jay55]

If anybody in/around Cheshire has any problems or concerns contact Mark at MProve Solutions (http://www.mprovesolutions.com/):thumbs:

[Neil M]

If anybody in/around Cheshire has any problems or concerns contact Mark at MProve Solutions (http://www.mprovesolutions.com/):thumbs:

Handy to Know Jay thanks - they must be neighbours of 'Lawsy' then :whistle:
PS: 'BH' - I've seen Cat C's in better nick than that posted by M3_NZ. :bigcry: