~400bhp CSLs?

[breeze]

I got my geo done at Thorney a little over a month ago and whilst I was there I had a brief conversation about engine tuning with John Thorne. We talked about what could be done to up the power of a a CSL without changing the displacement and it got me thinking.

How many CSLs are out there with the manifold to back box, Schrick, management etc all done and what are they making?

I'm sure between Evolve/Simpson/Thorney and the like we must have a few cars kicking out some decent numbers...

[shimmy]

I'll give you all the baked beans in our cupboards if you can beat 380bhp with out motek or internal block changes.

[Yanto]

Get onto cutters.

I think SpecialKev is running c.450bhp.

Not sure if he's dyno'd it.....take a look at his posts.

To be honest, I'm not convinced....he sounds like a guy going through a mid life crises imo....

[Bounce]

I'll give you all the baked beans in our cupboards if you can beat 380bhp with out motek or internal block changes.if he eats all the beans in your cupboards,it may give him a bit more bhp:whistle:

[alexk]

How many CSLs are out there with the manifold to back box, Schrick, management etc all done and what are they making?

I'm sure between Evolve/Simpson/Thorney and the like we must have a few cars kicking out some decent numbers...

I am sure they do mate :-D

[AlexGTT]

As Shimmy said, without am ECU like Motech and a shit load on internal work anyone claiming 400bhp or anywhere near is simply talking bollocks!

Save your money. There's better ways to find speed.

[ando]

I've just had shrick cams fitted and a remap by Tom Schrimer racing near the ring and I have a print out (in the car unfortunately at the ring) and that made 391.6 PS not sure what that is in BHP and 377nm torque again not sure what that is in lbft.

I'll upload the Dyno printout when I bring the car back next month if you like.

The car is standard apart from Miltek cats, think they are 100 cell. Tom said that was the most he's ever had out of a CSL with those cams, last one did 386ps.

Ando.

[shimmy]

395 ps is 400bhp :whistle:

[83SY]

I would leave it well alone and improve driving! 400bhp+ sounds unreliable :bigcry:

[ando]

395 ps is 400bhp :whistle:

What time do you want me to come get my beans then?? lol

I googled it and thought it was less, it said something like ps is 98%ish bhp.

[shimmy]

What time do you want me to come get my beans then?? lol

I googled it and thought it was less, it said something like ps is 98%ish bhp.

Just counted, got 4 times in the cupboard and half a tin of cold beans in the fridge.

Luckily for you my Costco saver tray has been all used up.

[shimmy]

Just checked and you are right385ps is around 379.7bhp

I think flow had similar figures but with SS headers.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

I always find the alleged power numbers
for S54's to be highly amusing.

The S54 is an under square engine so
its not akin to revs, suffers from
internal resonance, and fitting higher
lift cams to the std engine CR does not
do much more than decreaase the existing
powerband.

Its why in part the CSL S54 cams are of
longer duration than stock.

BMW who for those who forget, with all their
Data gained from its design, development
and evolution called it day when they hit
the wall at around 415 BHP.

That was the M3 P54 with internals etc that are not
only hours in use limited but were changed much more
frequently when Racing due to the massive internal
resonance the ''tuned'' engine creates.

M3 P54 is something like 60/70k for short engine
given the component internals.

Thus you have a undersquare engine with
increasing hamonic issues verging on the
very max of internal component limits.

Anybody that believes that this type of engine
makes another 20-30 or even 40 BHP by some
higher lift Cams, a reflash on the std Mapping
and improved Exhaust flow is easily pleased.

Good engine tuner will Dyno Car before and after
all and any works, doing 2 runs each time,
one hot and one cold.
This will produce a good estimate of what the
engine is producing.

In fact the std MS S54 CSL DME I would wager
is more powerful than any Motec or Pectel
unit available.

That aside, ECU does not gain any real power in its own
right, but given that so many factory DME's are encrypted
then unlocking them to locate the adressess
and rewrite them is why many resort to stand alone.

Plus you have Intellectual Property right issues.

You can alter/expand many of the factory settings, like
maximise fuelling, optimise the Vanos if retained,
delete the EWS, DBW and so on, but entering new paramiters
overall, is where the fun starts.

S54 is a remarkable engine in that its a undersquare
engine that does pull 8000 rpm and some, but
its not akin to bolt on tuning components for making any real
significant power gains.

Its got TO have good precise internal surgery and thus not only
does it require a good 'surgery' team, they need to
be fitting well made matched parts to maximise any gains.

Fact is, any Tuning Company will tell you what
they think you want to hear as they are taking
your money.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[DuncanR]

1 horsepower (hp) = 1.0139 pferdestarke (ps) :thumbs:

So Ando , from 390 PS you POSSIBLY have 386 HP ...maybe ....

[ando]

1 horsepower (hp) = 1.0139 pferdestarke (ps) :thumbs:

So Ando , from 390 PS you POSSIBLY have 386 HP ...maybe ....

Hey Dunc,

Yep that's what I thought, I don't really give too much of a toss what its made tbh, I didn't have them changed to go trying to get massive increases in power, one cam was worn out, my fault I guess. But the shrick cams were a nice alternative to standard ones.

Does the car feel quicker with them in and the claimed increases?

Well its hard to tell when driving it, it feels like it wants to spin up more in second than it did before, or was that the cups not up to temp?

On the ring the car feels better, pulls more up the hill or so the speedo tells me and I'm having to let off in places I was flat, and also getting in to higher gears in places I wasn't before and also changing up gears earlier than before.

Can't give you a time as (i'll upload the videos from the last trip) loads of crashes all weekend and lots of traffic so didn't really get any quick full laps in only sections really.

So overall pleased with the apparent gains,

Was it worth the money??
Not on your nelly, if the old cams hadn't wore out I wouldn't have touched it.

As an aside, how many of you guys really only use your car on track compared to road driving, as my cams went because I didn;t do the clearances often enough, or so I was told by a specialist, they need to be checked every year.

cheers

Ando

[alexk]

Mr Gorilla
Once more, I can't agree more with you.

The P54 is the absolute benchmark and when I am reading people claiming 385-395PS with a remap and exhaust, I consider it as at least naive (not to say stupid).

Sometime ago I dyno-ed my CSL on the famous Swiss tuner Sportec.
We did multiple runs and the best figure was 369PS and 390Nm.
All the engineers said that the car is excellent and I shouldn't touch anything (all M3 E46s they have dyno-ed were maxing out at 320PS).

[NZ_M3]

Whilst I agree in NA form the S54 peaks around ~420hp the restriction isn't so much in the undersquare nature of the motor (in terms of bore/stroke) - How high a motor can rev also isn't so much in the 'squareness' of the motor - but rather the rod/stroke ratio.

The so called perfect rod/stroke ratio for a high revving motor is said to be 1.75:1, the s54b32 has a rod/stroke ratio of 1.59:1 which is on the lazy side, but in no way what you would call inefficient for high revving (heck Honda vtec engines rev to 9500rpm with lower rod/stroke ratios than the s54b32).

Being able to rev of course doesn't always equate to making more power. Heck any motor that can rev beyond 6500rpm is a feat in itself (I won't go into the dynamics of this, google if you don't know).

Having said that, the iron block of the s54 means that it does take internal resonance pretty well (that and being 6 cylinder) - hence why it responds quite well to forced induction.

The limit is really in the head and the ability to flow much more in NA form. Hence the reason that high lift cams does bugger all when compared to a longer duration.

One way to increase power without adding extra stress to the s54 is to actually go longer stroke thus increasing rod/stroke ratio - 3.4 ~ 3.6l is doable I believe, and reliable/durable 450hp+ isn't unheard of.

Dyno figures are easily faked to the untrained - what gear you do the run in, what correction factor you use, what final drive ratio number you use can all determine whether you see gains or nothing at all in a dyno run. It means nothing as a comparison from motor to motor, only useful as a tuning tool on mapping gains or losses during a certain time and day for one particular machine.

[flow]

My CSL has/had Shrick cams and headers , race cats , mid pipe and race back box . ALL from supersprint .

After a remap the car had 381bhp and 410NM torque .
With these mods you wont have 400BHP . The numbers are the same as my stock 996 GT3 . But the GT3 was still faster .

[cantfind1]

Whilst I agree in NA form the S54 peaks around ~420hp the restriction isn't so much in the undersquare nature of the motor (in terms of bore/stroke) - How high a motor can rev also isn't so much in the 'squareness' of the motor - but rather the rod/stroke ratio.

The so called perfect rod/stroke ratio for a high revving motor is said to be 1.75:1, the s54b32 has a rod/stroke ratio of 1.59:1 which is on the lazy side, but in no way what you would call inefficient for high revving (heck Honda vtec engines rev to 9500rpm with lower rod/stroke ratios than the s54b32).

Being able to rev of course doesn't always equate to making more power. Heck any motor that can rev beyond 6500rpm is a feat in itself (I won't go into the dynamics of this, google if you don't know).

Having said that, the iron block of the s54 means that it does take internal resonance pretty well (that and being 6 cylinder) - hence why it responds quite well to forced induction.

The limit is really in the head and the ability to flow much more in NA form. Hence the reason that high lift cams does bugger all when compared to a longer duration.

One way to increase power without adding extra stress to the s54 is to actually go longer stroke thus increasing rod/stroke ratio - 3.4 ~ 3.6l is doable I believe, and reliable/durable 450hp+ isn't unheard of.

Dyno figures are easily faked to the untrained - what gear you do the run in, what correction factor you use, what final drive ratio number you use can all determine whether you see gains or nothing at all in a dyno run. It means nothing as a comparison from motor to motor, only useful as a tuning tool on mapping gains or losses during a certain time and day for one particular machine.


+1

[breeze]

Some great info on this thread - really interesting reading.

It does seem to start to challenge the value in spending on the motor, particularly when so many of us have a BMW warranty.

Part of the thinking came from conversations I've had with a friend with a 997.1 GT3. Something along the lines of, how comparable a 400bhp CSL would be to his car (which is definitely quicker in standard trim).

I should say, the 400bhp figure didn't come from JT...

[breeze]

Hey Dunc,

Yep that's what I thought, I don't really give too much of a toss what its made tbh, I didn't have them changed to go trying to get massive increases in power, one cam was worn out, my fault I guess. But the shrick cams were a nice alternative to standard ones.

Does the car feel quicker with them in and the claimed increases?

Well its hard to tell when driving it, it feels like it wants to spin up more in second than it did before, or was that the cups not up to temp?

On the ring the car feels better, pulls more up the hill or so the speedo tells me and I'm having to let off in places I was flat, and also getting in to higher gears in places I wasn't before and also changing up gears earlier than before.

Can't give you a time as (i'll upload the videos from the last trip) loads of crashes all weekend and lots of traffic so didn't really get any quick full laps in only sections really.

So overall pleased with the apparent gains,

Was it worth the money??
Not on your nelly, if the old cams hadn't wore out I wouldn't have touched it.

As an aside, how many of you guys really only use your car on track compared to road driving, as my cams went because I didn;t do the clearances often enough, or so I was told by a specialist, they need to be checked every year.

cheers

Ando

Ando - did you get a 'before' figure? Guessing not if your factory cams are worn, but it would be interesting to know what a factory CSL makes on the same rollers.

[ando]

Ando - did you get a 'before' figure? Guessing not if your factory cams are worn, but it would be interesting to know what a factory CSL makes on the same rollers.

Long story about the cams in my car, briefly 3 garages, 2 sets of cams and some dodgy workmanship, before finally, With Dunc's help, getting it in with someone who knows his stuff, and now a bit of a legal battle on my hands with one of the earlier garages.

There wasn't a 'before' run as the cams needed changing anyway, and they were done by another guy before Schirmers finished it off.

Schirmer reckons he has never seen a stock CSL make stock claimed outputs.

Like I said earlier, I'm not that fussed about power figures just want a good strong motor that preforms well on track and I can have some fun with it.

I know all about Dyno's, Gears and how to fudge figures, but if you've got a reputation and you build cars that win a lot of races, then maybe they do not bullshit?

Cheers

Ando.

[alexk]

Schirmer reckons he has never seen a stock CSL make stock claimed outputs.


How to interpret this ?
As they are making more or less than stock figures ?

[ando]

How to interpret this ?
As they are making more or less than stock figures ?

Less apprently, than stock.

Ando

[_Nathan_]

Anyone who thinks they have more than the claimed 355bhp on a stock CSL is deluded, especially now they are 9 years old, I couldn't care less what any dyno says, it just isn't going to happen.

Mine made 349 at 40k miles, that car never got left by the "I got told I had the most powerful stock CSL ever seen at 370bhp" lot either, if anything it felt stronger that others I drove?

[alexk]

Anyone who thinks they have more than the claimed 355bhp on a stock CSL is deluded, especially now they are 9 years old, I couldn't care less what any dyno says, it just isn't going to happen.

Mine made 349 at 40k miles, that car never got left by the "I got told I had the most powerful stock CSL ever seen at 370bhp" lot either, if anything it felt stronger that others I drove?

I think relative dyno figures (on the same dyno) is something we can use to compare.
Standard M3 E46s had at best 320PS on the same dyno that I dyno-ed my car.
Additionally, telemetry tests can also give an indication on how an engine performs and I know for a fact my car is quick.
Maybe in another dyno it will show 340PS, but I reckon other CSLs will show 330PS and M3 E46s 290PS.
I was never left behind too from other CSLs that claim 380+ figures with exhausts, maps etc.

It might be the Swiss Shell V-Power :wink:

[alexk]

Nathan

Do you have any acceleration tests that you can share ?
And what is the spec of the car in these tests ?

[breeze]

Anyone who thinks they have more than the claimed 355bhp on a stock CSL is deluded, especially now they are 9 years old, I couldn't care less what any dyno says, it just isn't going to happen.

Mine made 349 at 40k miles, that car never got left by the "I got told I had the most powerful stock CSL ever seen at 370bhp" lot either, if anything it felt stronger that others I drove?

I've had quite a few people say that S50 engines make more power as they get older and I would have assumed that the S54 would be similar - whether they ever make 355 bhp standard is another story...

[breeze]

The limit is really in the head and the ability to flow much more in NA form. Hence the reason that high lift cams does bugger all when compared to a longer duration.


Does the engine respond to head work? If that is where the limit is, is there anything that can be done to the factor head to enable it to flow better?

[shane@mbtech]

Does the engine respond to head work? If that is where the limit is, is there anything that can be done to the factor head to enable it to flow better?

This is my next task. I have a CSL head here, I am going to get it flow tested and see if any improvements. Different thickness headgasket is another avenue I am contemplating.

[The Gorilla]

Hi Lawsy,

On the S54 Heads, its very hard to
make real world gains.

But I did Lightly port the exhaust ports,
de-burr, and Glass polish them.

At the same time I roughed up the Intake
upper and smoothed up the lower intakes a
little and again some small de-burring.

Triple cut the valves and made sure all
valve seats were flush.

Gains, maybe more than likely not.

I had the head skimmed 0.4 thou to make
true, but kept with std H/G as there
not exactly 'thick' to start with.

Regarding the posts of 400 BHP S54's on std CR or the even more
ludicrous 450 BHP 'Stroked' S54's just go
do the Maths, either all calaculators have
been incorrect for years or ''stroking'' the
S54 defies the rules of how an engine
makes Torque/Power.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[cantfind1]

I can honestly say that 445BHP from an NA S54 is completely possible!

However the only thing that is standard on the engine is the block, the crank and the volume!

The Head in the S54 is pretty well flowed already but there are some improvements to make, but its a lot of money for not much gain....The exhaust valves in the CSL are a big improvement over the standard M3 ones....

Its all about getting more flow through the engine, the more air you can get into and out of it in a given time the more power you will create....to an extent.

Hence the Carbon airbox and exhaust cams from BMW in the CSL...

[The Gorilla]

Hi.

Quote- ''I can honestly say that 445BHP from an NA S54 is completely possible!

Please can you explain how ?

If you do the numbers of a ''stroked''
3.4 S54 assuming it makes 90lb ft Torque
per ltr, and remember at 8000 rpm
its already shaking itself to bits.
The Vac 3.4 stroked Crank is made by
Arrow precision and its rev limit
is 7900 rpm so as follows
I have also assumed that peak Torque
is made at 85% of max engine power
nearly every S54 Torque cure I have
ever seen is falling off before that so
not trying to manliputate the figures -

3.4 [S54] 90lb per Ltr x 3.4 = 306

306 @ 85%/100 = 260.1

260.1 @ 8000 rpm/5252 = 396 BHP

The fact is that to make 445 BHP then
the S54 engine needs to be making well
past 90lb Torque per ltr.

F1 engines while not Torque monsters struggle to
make 95lb Torque per ltr.
I think its well accepeted that F1 engine
designers know what there doing.

While Stroking improves Torque its at the
cost of revs.

Increase the stroke, but even compensating with
lighter Rods, 2 ring pistons, Ti wrist pins,,
block girdle, opening up the bearing clearances
and so on, will not enable increased revs.

I know of at least 3 stroked S54' s [3.4's]
2 built by well known Race Engineers and
when they hit 8200 rpm, they were no more.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[cantfind1]

Hi.

Quote- ''I can honestly say that 445BHP from an NA S54 is completely possible!

Please can you explain how ?

If you do the numbers of a ''stroked''
3.4 S54 assuming it makes 90lb ft Torque
per ltr, and remember at 8000 rpm
its already shaking itself to bits.
The Vac 3.4 stroked Crank is made by
Arrow precision and its rev limit
is 7900 rpm so as follows
I have also assumed that peak Torque
is made at 85% of max engine power
nearly every S54 Torque cure I have
ever seen is falling off before that so
not trying to manliputate the figures -

3.4 [S54] 90lb per Ltr x 3.4 = 306

306 @ 85%/100 = 260.1

260.1 @ 8000 rpm/5252 = 396 BHP

The fact is that to make 445 BHP then
the S54 engine needs to be making well
past 90lb Torque per ltr.

F1 engines while not Torque monsters struggle to
make 95lb Torque per ltr.
I think its well accepeted that F1 engine
designers know what there doing.

While Stroking improves Torque its at the
cost of revs.

Increase the stroke, but even compensating with
lighter Rods, 2 ring pistons, Ti wrist pins,,
block girdle, opening up the bearing clearances
and so on, will not enable increased revs.

I know of at least 3 stroked S54' s [3.4's]
2 built by well known Race Engineers and
when they hit 8200 rpm, they were no more.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Well seeing is believing....and I know the guy that built it and races it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgD6K_4kslc

By the way this engine was mapped by an F1 engine builder.....

[0-60Motorsports]

Well seeing is believing....and I know the guy that built it and races it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgD6K_4kslc

By the way this engine was mapped by an F1 engine builder.....

Wow, more details on this please.

[NZ_M3]

This is all starting to remind me of the days of B18C Honda vtec, when people claimed that 260bhp at the crank was the peak for that motor, then someone in the States went and stroked it to 2.1 litres (physically impossible until you added a decking plate to the block), upped the compression and various porting and intake tricks, block work and rev'd the thing to 9500rpm and it cracked 300bhp, nobody believed him until he showed all the engine work and posted up a detailed build on the net, stuck the motor into his daily driven EF CRX and started building these motors for race teams (well known shop in the Honda community by the way, if not the authority on everything NA Honda).

450bhp does sound a little unbelievable I have to admit for an s54 (I'd like to know the full spec for that above motor posted by cantfind1) but 420 is definitely plausible, and unless the guys that race in open class here are all lying about their horsepower figures but yet still somehow miraculously beating the occasional 5.0 V8 powered E46s .... I have no other explanation.

[cantfind1]

Spec of that engine is know by only 2 people in the world....and I am not one of them I am afraid...

Sometimes you just have to believe....

[NZ_M3]

Spec of that engine is know by only 2 people in the world....and I am not one of them I am afraid...

Sometimes you just have to believe....


Oh don't get me wrong, 450+hp is possible (see the ALMS team description below), I just don't know how reliable or how many actual 'race' hours you can get out of that motor before a big rebuild. I know that 380 ~ 400 can be done reliably, 420hp pushing it, and stroked at 450+ .. probably 30 hours before a rebuild?

But yes, from the horses mouth (and I believe it when these guys say that their motor is 450hp+ they are afterall the official ALMS team for BMW Motorsport) - and they rev these to 8600rpm .... clearly stroking these motors gave it a better rod/stroke ratio vs stock allowing them to rev a bit happier.

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/listing/44208/factory_bmw_m3_gt_alms_gtr_race_car_003.html

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Not looking to argue, but for the
S54 to produce 95lb Torque per
liter then it would a first for
a volume prodcution based engine,
even if the block is the only
original part retained.

C63 AMG, BMW E60 V10, BMW S65,
the list goes on and none of these
engines produce anywhere near 95lb Torque
per liter.

So not a believer here.

Regards,

The Gorilla.