Pagid RS14 or RS29 (on AP brakes)?

[Franzino]

Hi,

I don't have a M3 CSL :( But I have the a Z4M with AP brakes and it's exactly the same brake set-up as on the M3 CSL ;) A lot of CSL owners uprated their OEM brakes to AP brakes and drive their cars on the track, so this seems like a good place to ask....

Currently I'm running Pagid RS4-2 (blue) on street and track. They squeal light on the road and on the track they preform ok (but not stunning). If the blue's would be perfectly silent, then maybe I would keep them as a all round street and track pad. But they are not silent! The blue make noise with light braking, so when this is the case IMO it's better to upgrade to better trackpads (which will also squeal). Sometimes the blue's leave some pad deposit on the rotors after hard track work and this results in a temporally steering judder. Noise will be the same with higher Pagids pads, but in my opinion braking will be improved (on track).

I'm planning on changing to other Pagid brake pads and have difficulty choosing between RS14 (black) or RS29 (yellow).

Considering squealing noise, to make them more silent the edges will be chamfered with 45degrees and on the back op de pads there will be a little copper grease.

I'm looking for the best compromise; Which one preforms best with low temperatures (when driving on street), makes the least noise and performs good on track and has some good initial bite??? Noise is still an issue (I don't want them to be much louder then my already loud blue ones). I want the most silent of the two and best performing with low temperatures. I was thinking of buying the endurance Pagid RS29 (all round) or the set up Pagid advised me for my car; RS 14 (front) & RS4-4 (rear)

Any opinions?

Thanks,

[Graham]

I have the RS29's and they're perfect. No squealing, good cold performance and exceptional hot performance

[Franzino]

I have the RS29's and they're perfect. No squealing, good cold performance and exceptional hot performance
Do you have AP brakes or OEM brakes... I presume your car is a e46 M3?

[billyboysm3]

I've got pf discs with Rs29 yellow all round.

What I found is that when you mince around town they squeal.

When used properly, braking hard and on track they are fine.

In the winter they do need warming up though

[cantfind1]

que....shimmy!

[Graham]

Do you have AP brakes or OEM brakes... I presume your car is a e46 M3?

Yes not a CSL, I'm just here because everyone actually goes on track rather than other forums :hahaha:

I think my discs are PF and yeah AP 6 pots, they've never squealed

[shimmy]

que....shimmy!

Hello :)

[alexk]

RS14 is the winner !

They don't squeal and their performance is far superior than RS29s in any temperature.
They just don't last as long.

[shimmy]

RS14 is the winner !

They don't squeal and their performance is far superior than RS29s in any temperature.
They just don't last as long.


but they are more usable down to the last 2mm unlike RS29

[Franzino]

After some research on this and other forums I ordered RS14 (front) and RS4-4 (rear)...

The different front and rear set-up was advised by the guys from Pagid.

For the Z4 (and for BMWs in general) a very good track set up is RS14 black front pads and RS4-4 orange rear pads. A lot of pro teams do that.

Due to the weight transfer during braking the front brakes do most of the job, especially on a front engine car. In our experience the brake balance is better when using less friction on the rear axle. On an ABS car you won't feel so much difference but it is better to stay out of the ABS especially with a none racing ABS.

With the original brake there is less dynamic weight transform (shifting weight to the front axle and reduce it on the rear axle) because stopping power is just not as good. So the OE brake is set up for these road conditions. On the track, in relation to road use, you can use more front brakes and therefore want to have a more aggressive front pad. For instance in race cars with a balance bar master cylinder system drivers turn more brake bias to the rear in slick conditions (e.g. rain) because there is less dynamic weight transfer and consequently more rear brake can be used.

[shimmy]

rs14 are great pads but with rs4-2 at rear watch put for some squirreling on track as the back tries to overtake the front!

[Franzino]

rs14 are great pads but with rs4-2 at rear watch put for some squirreling on track as the back tries to overtake the front!
???
RS 14 black will be on the front and RS 4-4 orange (not 4-2) on the rears. Why would in your opinion the back try and overtake the front with this RS4-4 or RS4-2 on the back? Makes no sense! A car with a brake balance like you describe is something Pagid or other brake specialists would never advice. The RS4-4 is a less agressive pad then the RS14. RS 4-4 has less initial bite and is a pad that is used a lot as a rear pad in combination with RS 14.
http://www.pagid-brake-pads.co.uk/products/rs44-orange-carbon-based.php

[shane@mbtech]

???
RS 14 black will be on the front and RS 4-4 orange (not 4-2) on the rears. Why would in your opinion the back try and overtake the front with this RS4-4 or RS4-2 on the back? Makes no sense! A car with a brake balance like you describe is something Pagid or other brake specialists would never advice. The RS4-4 is a less agressive pad then the RS14. RS 4-4 has less initial bite and is a pad that is used a lot as a rear pad in combination with RS 14.
http://www.pagid-brake-pads.co.uk/products/rs44-orange-carbon-based.php

He read it on google:hahaha:

Sometimes the back not clamping down can cause it to lift and go light so a less braking rear can give the same effect as a rear end clamping and locking.

[Franzino]

He read it on google:hahaha:

Sometimes the back not clamping down can cause it to lift and go light so a less braking rear can give the same effect as a rear end clamping and locking.
First time I hear about this effect... If this is the case why would Pagid advice me to use this set-up? Is asked which set-up gave the best brake balance and they advised the RS14/RS4-4 for my car and other BMW's. I'm now driving with RS4-2 all round on my full AP kit. With heavy braking I found that the ABS comes in faster then when I was driving with the original brake set-up.

The guys from Simpson Motorsport (UK) and other specialists have the same opinion; On most BMWs you will find that the AP 4 pot caliper is a little large for the rear, and that a softer pad will generally work better in the rear with the APs.

[alexk]

First time I hear about this effect... If this is the case why would Pagid advice me to use this set-up? Is asked which set-up gave the best brake balance and they advised the RS14/RS4-4 for my car and other BMW's. I'm now driving with RS4-2 all round on my full AP kit. With heavy braking I found that the ABS comes in faster then when I was driving with the original brake set-up.

The guys from Simpson Motorsport (UK) and other specialists have the same opinion;

Maybe because they want to get rid of the stock of rear RS4-4 :thumbs:
I run RS-14 front & back, all good here :beer: *** although I am not racing.

[c_w]

In my experience with my M Coupe the rear brakes do a fair amount of work, having similar sized rear vented discs as the front. I have run RS29 on the front and Carbon Lorraine RC6 (a much higher friction pad) and the braking felt excellent you could really feel the car stopping flat because of the slight increase in rear bias. I was worried about rear locking but it was great.

My recommendation would have been RS29, work very well hot or cold, last AGES, lowish dust and less likely to deposit than RS14.

[niall1]

rs14 are great pads but with rs4-2 at rear watch put for some squirreling on track as the back tries to overtake the front!

So what's the recommendation? The last time is was out on track in my car I experienced exactly that 'squirreling' sensation at the rear on heavy braking at the end of a straight. I had Pagid blue (?) pads front and rear. They were on the car when I bought it. I was about to order a set of new pads for a track day next month so is the recommendation for the CSL - RS14 (front) and RS4-4 (rear)?

[Tech@PFC]

Hello,

A lot CSL owners run the PFC.01 pads which have excellent track performance as well as good cold bite, we also offer a CSLR discount.

Which callipers do you have?

Regards,
Charlie

[pkumarm3]

Plus one

All porsche guys love the pagids, but i have been using pfc01 06 and now the 08 and absolutely love them. The numbers are related to the year of development. The higher the number the better the life and tech into the pad. I recall the 97s were quite harsh but bit like a wanker. But the 06 are great, not harsh, and longer lasting.

Great modulation, wear, and rotor kindness.

I am not affiliated with pfc. Just love their products!!!

Hello,

We quite a few to CSL owners run the PFC.01 pads which have excellent track performance as well as good cold bite, we also offer a CSL owners club discount.

Which callipers do you have?

Regards,
Charlie

[Tech@PFC]

Plus one

All porsche guys love the pagids, but i have been using pfc01 06 and now the 08 and absolutely love them. The numbers are related to the year of development. The higher the number the better the life and tech into the pad. I recall the 97s were quite harsh but bit like a wanker. But the 06 are great, not harsh, and longer lasting.

Great modulation, wear, and rotor kindness.

I am not affiliated with pfc. Just love their products!!!

Glad to hear it, that's spot on :smt023

[shimmy]

i used pf01 on front and similar result as rs29 but LOADS if hirrible sticky brake dust, never again.

with rs14 i would nect next try rs29 on rear or just stick to rs29 all round

[Tech@PFC]

i used pf01 on front and similar result as rs29 but LOADS if hirrible sticky brake dust, never again.

with rs14 i would nect next try rs29 on rear or just stick to rs29 all round

Yeah the .01 is a full race pad so it can be dusty, but we do have low dust low noise pads as well.

Regards,
Charlie

[83SY]

RS29's for me :smt055

[Franzino]

In my experience with my M Coupe the rear brakes do a fair amount of work, having similar sized rear vented discs as the front. I have run RS29 on the front and Carbon Lorraine RC6 (a much higher friction pad) and the braking felt excellent you could really feel the car stopping flat because of the slight increase in rear bias. I was worried about rear locking but it was great.

My recommendation would have been RS29, work very well hot or cold, last AGES, lowish dust and less likely to deposit than RS14.

Why would you think the RS29 would less likely to deposit material then the RS14?

RS14
Constant working temperature 400 – 700°C
Max temperature for short period only: 800°C

RS29 (endurance pad)
Constant working temperature: 400 – 700°C
Max temperature for short period only: 750°C

I have no experience with PFC and Carbon Lorraine. For me personally; I only buy pads from Pagid for track use. Ferodo sounds also ok with some types of pads, EBC is crap and PFC is something I would consider. Carbon Lorraine looks to be to agressive for wheels and paint and I don't want to risk damage on them. I have read some bad reviews about them with people who had paint damage with certain types of CL brake pads.

The RS-14 (front) + RS4-4 (rear) are now 2 days on my car. Last night I did the Pagid bedding in procedure and some positive things came to the surface; brake modulation is better, they brake a little harder and for the moment they are still completely silent (I really hope they stay this way). Next weekend will be the real test on the Nurburgring. Fingers crossed! :wink:

[niall1]

RS29's for me :smt055

Just bought them (front & rear). :beer:

[DuncanR]

RS29's for me :smt055+1 here too .. fast boys need good brakes !:-D

[Neil M]

RS29's all round, works well for me too.

[c_w]

Why would you think the RS29 would less likely to deposit material then the RS14?


Not sure, probably the different compound of the pad, the temp range is very similar and doesn't really tell you anything. Just going off experience, a friend runs RS14s on the front of his car and occasionally gets judder and the discs get the usual pad deposits marks and I have also had them judder on the rear of my car. Whereas with RS29 I've not had any issues at all in general road or track.

Carbone Lorraine RC6 are not too bad, yes the paint can get a little rough like the cars not been waxed for ages, but they're a very good powerful pad.

[cantfind1]

i used pf01 on front and similar result as rs29 but LOADS if hirrible sticky brake dust, never again.

with rs14 i would nect next try rs29 on rear or just stick to rs29 all round


I thought you swore by the RS14's Shim?? You changed ur mind now??

[shimmy]

I thought you swore by the RS14's Shim?? You changed ur mind now??

Not really, I like the rs14 and rs29,

Rs14 last longer but. Think maybe a bit ore aggressive on discs

[Franzino]

The new brake pads are now a couple of weeks on my car. Since that time I did the Pagid bedding in procedure, a week of normal slow street driving and 3 trip's to the Nurburgring. The brakes are now awesome..! I use to think my AP set-up was great....now I think the complete AP set-up is really awesome! With changing the brake pads I now have everything on the 100% "I like" level. Everything I wanted more about the AP brakes is now there. I have an increase in initial bite (on street and track), a little more braking power, higher working temperatures on track (650°C => 800°C), slightly better modulation and less ABS interference! :thumbsup:

At this moment the new brake pads are not silent anymore :cry: . They were silent before the bedding in, after the bedding in, on the street, on the track…… I was filled with joy and it was to good to be true! But one day after the Nurburgring trip, they started to make the same squealing noise as the blue ones did. I have let my shop file of the edges (advised by Pagid) and put a really small amount of copper grease on the back of the pad where the pistond thouch the pads (did the same thing with my previous set of blue ones). I was worried that the RS-14 would not brake well when being cold on the street, but this is not the case...