SMG II gear change problems

[mooriginal]

Ok guys thought id post over here to see what you knowledgable peeps might think

Long story short.
I have a 2002 m3 Convert.
88K

I recently had the diff replaced as central bearing had issues and leaking seals too.
At the time I had terrible judder
and when they took out the clutch to replace it they found the clutch so badly worn that it was frayed at the edges

New clutch fitted

So work done.
1. Diff fitted
2. New clutch and flywheel
3. SMG fluid replacement for new
4. Diff oil - and friction modifer
5. SMG adaptations
6. New Salmon relay
7. 2x ident springs replaced
8. Pressure plate changed
9. Rubber flex disc replaced
10. Drivelogic left same as original settings
11. Rolling paddle reset done

Heres the problem

On full power - that is gunning it between
2nd into 3rd
3rd to 4th

I get a lag - the gear engages after a visible pause in power - and there is a sound from under the car - best described as a 'clacking' sound
like if you beat two pieces of two by four wood planks

There is a double 'clack' - and pause as car goes into gear between 2nd -3rd and 3rd - 4th.

All other gears are perfect and no problems, sounds etc.

Blipping on downshifts are fine

Downshifting into 3rd or 4th - does have a delay and car does not select the lower gear until its happy in the problem gears only.

In other gears the downshifting is fine...

Can anyone throw any suggestions

Someone mentioned to me syncromesh ?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Mo

[mooriginal]

Also does this make sense

When I had original juddering problem It started off between 2-3 3-4
This got worse and it started happening in all gears so quickly realised that the clutch needed replacing
However didn't get clutch replaced for about 2 months due to needing car as daily driver for work

So did the car store in memory the readings or problems with these gears that it then carried over to the new clutch ?

[Mark CSL]

Was the cluch bite reset ?
after the clutch was fitted

[mooriginal]

Was the cluch bite reset ?
after the clutch was fitted


Hi Mark

Im not sure - ive asked the owner of the garage to confirm...

[manos///3]

I had familiar issues.
Check output cylinder clutch Nr8 http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E46/Coupe/Europe/M3_CSL-S54/LHD/N/2003/september/browse/clutch/clutch_control_m_gearbox/
Mine , the plastic on edge was quite dissolved.

[mooriginal]

I had familiar issues.
Check output cylinder clutch Nr8 http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E46/Coupe/Europe/M3_CSL-S54/LHD/N/2003/september/browse/clutch/clutch_control_m_gearbox/
Mine , the plastic on edge was quite dissolved.


Thank you so much for that link
the car is due back in garage soon for them to check again

[mooriginal]

Was the cluch bite reset ?
after the clutch was fitted


Ive asked and the owner isnt sure it was done
he used a specialist to come in to do the adaptations etc who has all the Gt1 kit etc..

hes going to re-confirm

thank you will get it checked when the car is in

[Mark CSL]

Ive asked and the owner isnt sure it was done
he used a specialist to come in to do the adaptations etc who has all the Gt1 kit etc..

hes going to re-confirm

thank you will get it checked when the car is in
Bmw do this after they fit a new clutch to reset the bite
they can also run a check on the gearbox.

If i was you ask a bmw bealer for a price to run a check on the clutch and gearbox should only be about 1 hour labour :thumbs:

[mooriginal]

I had familiar issues.
Check output cylinder clutch Nr8 http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E46/Coupe/Europe/M3_CSL-S54/LHD/N/2003/september/browse/clutch/clutch_control_m_gearbox/
Mine , the plastic on edge was quite dissolved.


Garage has confirmed now that the was checked and the mine was pointed and in good condition

[mooriginal]

Bmw do this after they fit a new clutch to reset the bite
they can also run a check on the gearbox.

If i was you ask a bmw bealer for a price to run a check on the clutch and gearbox should only be about 1 hour labour :thumbs:

Thanks

I shall get the garage to do it as its still their problem for now
I trust the garage as the owner has become a mate through these problems.
He wants to get into doing proper servicing on M cars so treats this as a learning experience ...

If all things fail ill take it to another specialist who is very well respected.. but I wanted to exhaust the possibilites first ..

I will defo ask if clutch biting point was reset
but this strikes me as an obvious thing to do with a new clutch
and would get missed if someone forgot to only...

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Pure Guess on what your have descibed.

Your selectors in the Gearbox are worn,
and so when you engage, instead of the
detent Springs aligning for selection,
they are mis-aligning, solenoid actuators
clacking, so that there is
resistance at the selection take up.

Changing up under load, so I am guessing
that the 'clacking' noise is the selectors trying
to engage, actuators, hence why you have a delay in
Gear changes.

Changing down, the engine 'Brake' loads as you
change down which loads the drive train and hence
the selection process is again mis-aligned.

I would guess that if you drive hard, lift off,
so as to unload the drive train and select to
change up then it will be much smoother and
without hesitation as the 'selectors' are not
under load and so slide in easier.

Just my guess on what you have said.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[mooriginal]

Hi,

Pure Guess on what your have descibed.

Your selectors in the Gearbox are worn,
and so when you engage, instead of the
detent Springs aligning for selection,
they are mis-aligning, solenoid actuators
clacking, so that there is
resistance at the selection take up.

Changing up under load, so I am guessing
that the 'clacking' noise is the selectors trying
to engage, actuators, hence why you have a delay in
Gear changes.

Changing down, the engine 'Brake' loads as you
change down which loads the drive train and hence
the selection process is again mis-aligned.

I would guess that if you drive hard, lift off,
so as to unload the drive train and select to
change up then it will be much smoother and
without hesitation as the 'selectors' are not
under load and so slide in easier.

Just my guess on what you have said.

Regards,

The Gorilla.


Thanks Gorilla

That makes sense with how ive been driving while this is happening
Im in s3 mode all the time now
and as I go through the gears im always careful to change up between 2nd to 3rd below 3k revs or with foot off the pedal and not too fast ...
This works every time ...

However today I was caught in front of car up my a$$
and booted it a bit around the roundabout
of course 1-2nd fine but forgot about 3rd

clack clack - clack - clack -clack
I was on so many revs that this time the gear seelctor just flashed at me
i changed up to 4th to try and catch a higher ratio - still flashing

finally id slowed down by now enough that I reselected 2nd which engaged and then went up the gears smoothly

sheesh !

Is there anyway to service the 'selectors'?

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Find a replacement SMG Gearbox
in good condition with as low
mileage as poss, will be by far
the Cheapest option.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[mooriginal]

Hi,

Find a replacement SMG Gearbox
in good condition with as low
mileage as poss, will be by far
the Cheapest option.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

:bigcry::bigcry::bigcry:

[plug]

Hi,

Find a replacement SMG Gearbox
in good condition with as low
mileage as poss, will be by far
the Cheapest option.

Regards,

The Gorilla.
Will BMW or Getrag not sell parts separately or something?

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

For sure you can purchase parts.

Its like all these things, its finding
somebody that knows what there doing
and how to do it.

Look what work the OP has already
undertaken, some of it un-related for sure,
but the issue still exists.

Just wait to the new wave of Twin Turbo
Motors and their electronic Injection systems
and DCT Gearboxes start to play up, then the fun
and costs will really start big time.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Bounce]

Could it be as simple as the gear position sensor on the back of the gear box,Elms changed mine when I had a new pump fitted.

[shimmy]

Could it be as simple as the gear position sensor on the back of the gear box,Elms changed mine when I had a new pump fitted.

Just stick to bricks and concrete Brett :thumbs:

[Bounce]

Just stick to bricks and concrete Brett :thumbs:I know fook all about those either:hahaha:

[shane@mbtech]

Sorry to be a vulture, but we have an smg box here if you need one.

[NZ_M3]

What software was used to reset the SMG system?

I've tried quite a few of them and in my opinion only the GT1 and ISTA works - the rest are rubbish (even INPA with its automated reset function).

If not done correctly and not done in the correct order it simply won't operate properly.

Here's the correct order for the reset:

1. Teach in clutch characteristic curve
2. adapt transmission fully
3. teach in clutch slip point
4. offset longitudinal sensor reset
5. Reset clutch values (under the GT1 this is under a different function within the menu - this is NOT under the standard SMG service menu, it is elsewhere).

My experience is if you don't do #5 above, there's really little point in doing 1 to 4 - as it simply means the system values are still operated against the 'old' clutch adaptation values (i.e. the compensating values stored long term) - so it'll still drive like arse.

when I get sometime I'll post up where to find this adaptation reset (I can't remember it off the top of my head right now).

Also when the SMG pump fluid was changed, was it bled properly with the proper tool?? See below for all the functions:

http://www.cslregister.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5160

For clutch test:

http://www.cslregister.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6164

Otherwise as Bounce stated, could be as simple as the gear positioning sensor (although being a 2nd to 3rd gear thing only, it seems unlikely, as that would mean 4th to 5th would be doing the same thing). The sensor itself houses two sensors within, one does the selection angle and the other shift travel - seems weired it is only doing it on 2nd to 3rd if it is sensor related.

[Mark CSL]

What software was used to reset the SMG system?

I've tried quite a few of them and in my opinion only the GT1 and ISTA works - the rest are rubbish (even INPA with its automated reset function).

If not done correctly and not done in the correct order it simply won't operate properly.

Here's the correct order for the reset:

1. Teach in clutch characteristic curve
2. adapt transmission fully
3. teach in clutch slip point
4. offset longitudinal sensor reset
5. Reset clutch values (under the GT1 this is under a different function within the menu - this is NOT under the standard SMG service menu, it is elsewhere).

My experience is if you don't do #5 above, there's really little point in doing 1 to 4 - as it simply means the system values are still operated against the 'old' clutch adaptation values (i.e. the compensating values stored long term) - so it'll still drive like arse.

when I get sometime I'll post up where to find this adaptation reset (I can't remember it off the top of my head right now).

Also when the SMG pump fluid was changed, was it bled properly with the proper tool?? See below for all the functions:

http://www.cslregister.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5160

For clutch test:

http://www.cslregister.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6164

Otherwise as Bounce stated, could be as simple as the gear positioning sensor (although being a 2nd to 3rd gear thing only, it seems unlikely, as that would mean 4th to 5th would be doing the same thing). The sensor itself houses two sensors within, one does the selection angle and the other shift travel - seems weired it is only doing it on 2nd to 3rd if it is sensor related.

Great Reply Tom i was just about to add this myself :bigcry:

[NZ_M3]

#5 Reset Clutch Curve - under control unit functions - SMG (second icon on the bottom right) - available after you've done a scan of the full system

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n319/M3_Power/GT1%20Clutch%20Test/resetclutchcurve.jpg

[mooriginal]

Could it be as simple as the gear position sensor on the back of the gear box,Elms changed mine when I had a new pump fitted.


Thanks for that
considered that option but I dont have the symptoms of gear selection issues which i believe are with flashing gear selection in most gears

And have no problems from cold or around 1 -2

unless anyone else thinks im wrong about that ?

[mooriginal]

Thank you so much for the post - all of it helps
The garage are trying their best -

They use a specialist for the adaptations - but wasnt aware what method he use
I will confirm of course...


What software was used to reset the SMG system?

I've tried quite a few of them and in my opinion only the GT1 and ISTA works - the rest are rubbish (even INPA with its automated reset function).

If not done correctly and not done in the correct order it simply won't operate properly.

Here's the correct order for the reset:

1. Teach in clutch characteristic curve
2. adapt transmission fully
3. teach in clutch slip point
4. offset longitudinal sensor reset
5. Reset clutch values (under the GT1 this is under a different function within the menu - this is NOT under the standard SMG service menu, it is elsewhere).

My experience is if you don't do #5 above, there's really little point in doing 1 to 4 - as it simply means the system values are still operated against the 'old' clutch adaptation values (i.e. the compensating values stored long term) - so it'll still drive like arse.

when I get sometime I'll post up where to find this adaptation reset (I can't remember it off the top of my head right now).

Also when the SMG pump fluid was changed, was it bled properly with the proper tool?? See below for all the functions:

http://www.cslregister.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5160

For clutch test:

http://www.cslregister.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6164

Otherwise as Bounce stated, could be as simple as the gear positioning sensor (although being a 2nd to 3rd gear thing only, it seems unlikely, as that would mean 4th to 5th would be doing the same thing). The sensor itself houses two sensors within, one does the selection angle and the other shift travel - seems weired it is only doing it on 2nd to 3rd if it is sensor related.

[mooriginal]

Just as another points

does anyone think it might be relatively simple issue of syncro gear being worn out ?

[NZ_M3]

Just as another points

does anyone think it might be relatively simple issue of syncro gear being worn out ?

Very likely if it is isolated to 2- 3

3rd gear syncro ring are notoriously weak.

[mooriginal]

Thanks all for the posts on this thread

This weekend I went back to garage and sat and watched the adaptations done.
Double checked they were done in the correct order.

All steps completed with no warnings or errors.

Unfortunately the problem has still not gone away.

I didnt leave the car there as not sure what to do next - as didnt want to just let them talk it all of again just to check mechanicals


What we have found though is the following.

If on full power I change from 2nd - 3rd
where the problem lies -
If I lift of for a fraction during the change - and then plant the foot back down straight away the gear engages with out the clanking

It seems this method of treating it like a manual - seems to force the gear in without issues

I havent mastered it yet - as quite often i dont life appropiately
But it when it works it does work

Im teaching myself to drive around the problem.
The issue cannot be driven around if changing down gears if you want a busrt of power from lower gear of course...

Im not sure what to do other than give it to another garage who might have a different opinion or idea...

[giraffe]

Very likely if it is isolated to 2- 3

3rd gear syncro ring are notoriously weak.
Agreed , sorry good second hand box cheapest option .