Trackday driving.........how will you get better

[shimmy]

Just thought as the first TD of 2012 approaches, I'd start a topic about driving on trackdays and how to drive better and faster but trying to avoid the PH bullshit that drives me bonkers.

Firstly this is not about race driving and from what ive seen that is a totally different circumstance and skill

If I look at me from 2006 to 2011 I'd make the following comment.

I was originally quite conservative, smoothish and average I'd say. Not that I am massively different now as my general behaviour on track is still the same, always starting slowly and having to build it up every day I go out. Always my ambition is to drive my car faster than last time and with more skill. I have not bothered too much about other drivers out there (apart from the normal red mist) but i have kept detailed records and data just trying to understand how ican be faster.

Where I have improved I think is two fold. Firstly some instruction has eventually got thru to my small brain and now I think my ability has improved but subconsciously rather than having to think about it. Secondly I have managed to convince myself that my danger level is higher than it used to be. The natural place where you don't want to take you body or car past a certain place has moved to a different level. It involves more risk but I have accepted that.

Oulton in Nov made me realise a few things. It made me recognise that even on tracks I don't know well and conditions that are not perfect I now have a level of ability to much more quickly lick up the pace and that I should not be so slow to try to push the limits. I am not saying at all that I am fast but onl how I have managed to get faster.

Now for anybody reading this who is starting up I'd recommend the following if your goal is to drive faster.

1. Get instruction at regular intervals
2. Get comfortable driving the car out of shape as believe you me that is where it needs to be to get the extra 5%
3. But most of all get your head sorted out every time of get in the car.

Finally we all are different people and with different attuitudes and styles so work out what you are and what you want and don't be slow in being brave.

As for me next, I have a few goals to score and I'm certainly not bored of TDs yet but I think racing has to be next.

So what about you other guys......what's it all about?

[northernjim]

Nicely put Shimmy, I think you've covered everything there :beer:

I don't think people realise the value of experience, and just time spent behind the wheel-Along with instruction to help me understand just how much faster the car is, rather than how fast/slow I actually think it is in my head!
( semi slicks to ages to get near to their potential in the corners) for me that's been the area of most improvement- I remember my first instruction with Sean from OPL at Oulton 2 years ago, I found it really hard to listen to his ( very clear and simple) instructions whilst driving 'fast' whereas in nov at Oulton I was able to have a normal conversation with him all the way round whilst putting in my best ever times around there:smokin:

[northernjim]

Rugby is back on now so :birdman:

[shimmy]

Instruction is a very strange thing. For sure one instructor and another, both who can be first class, don't always work with different drivers. We take things in differently for sure.

For me instruction gave me loads of info and loads to soak up but did not make much difference UNTIL first it comes naturally and secondly you go fast enough where it all makes sense!

[O'Neill]

Jim, Shimmy :thumbs:

Thats the key practice, being able to get to the limit of grip and balance it there. I tend to go either way don't get to the limit or go over it, slowing to get it back. Practice practice practice.

[Yanto]

Having complete and utter confidence of the dynamic and mechanical integrity of the car.

Billy and I were talking about this at car limits. Finding where the limit is on cornering etc. and having complete confidence that the car will react the same every time if conditions the same.

I'm not there yet, but hope to get nearer to "there" this year.

CL certainly helped. Will do another.

[billyboysm3]

As a TD novice Ive been happy with my last couple of outings. Doing the CL day abled myself and Ian to push the car that extra 10% in a safe environment. Also in a good way the weather was p*ssing it down most the day and she really does have good turn in, in the wet, meaning I can push the car harder next time

For me TD's are about improving my driving skills, more hours behind the wheel and a legal place to really open her up.

My aim for my next TD is to up my corner entry speed as I now know the car is capable of more.

[s.mac]

good instruction
the right set up for conditions on the day
time behind the wheel (this one is top of the list for me)
leave your brains in the paddock (more for racing than TD's) and by this I mean you have to rape the vehicle for all you can, which you wouldn't do with your beloved on a TD

[need4speed]

I agree with Yanto, I think it is important to understand the dynamics of which ever car you are in and explore it's limits in a safe way. Then build up your confidence at a speed that suits you without pressure. Not long after getting the CSL I got booked in on a driver development course down at Millbrook and have to say it was money well spent, basically exploring most of the points that have been raised in this thread.

[s.mac]

+1 for CAT training :)
& Car Limits
Palmer sport day is also good to push on in a few cars, with an instructor shouting at you to go faster :hahaha:

[O'Neill]

:)

with Curly as an instructor shouting at you to go faster :hahaha:

:hahaha:

[shane@mbtech]

If I was to start again....I would get instruction first, then explore my skill.

As it is now, its hard to get rid of bad habits which hold me back, instruction first- maybe I wouldnt have bad habits????

Biggest thing I think is experience. When you leave it 6 months or more you lose touch and have to build up slightly again.
Lots and lots of trackdays in succession was the thing that moved me on most, I just got faster and faster. But feel I have reached my self learning potential and think only way for me to progress now is tuition.

I also used to drive the fuck out the car like a maniac at times to learn the breakaway points and how it feels when it does breakaway- like Ian has just done at Car limits. This gave me the confidence to go faster and faster.
Biggest thing I dont do is to look through the corner enough, I always forget and it fucks my line up. (You tend to go where you look)

My fastest laps where also my most smooth/calm, I tried to go faster but got untidy and stayed the same or slower at times.




Instruction and a natural ability also. I could have trained with liverpool everyday from the age of 10, doesnt mean I could have been as good as Steven Gerrard. I just dont have the natural ability.

[shimmy]

Looking thru corners.....same here Lawsy, I still have to force my head up rather than looking at the apex as I drive over it!

Also natural ability you can't beat, but very few of us have it in any sort of abundance so can leave that to the likes of Button and Hamilton.

[E46CSL]

Good post Shimmy :thumbs:

[O'Neill]

Car limits is great :thumbs: Andy pushes you beyond your comfort zone on the high speed bend, your natural instinct is to fight the car, then he shows you how to use the force of one finger, a few spins later and a stern "look where you want to go" it starts to sink in.

[Yanto]

Just to qualify my comments further....

Since a car is made up of a gazzilion different components, for me, it is entrusting each of those will work as they should as you drive eau rouge or copse or corum flat / powering out. That's a big ask with the forces and grip variables in a car that you pick up the tab for if it goes wrong - aside from any damage to yourself !

I still need to get over this mental hurdle,even though what I'm asking of the car is prob 6/10ths of it's ability.

I think this will only be achieved through a slow build up as per the Shimeisters comments earlier.

[northernjim]

Thinking on, basking in the pleasant haze that can only be brought on by a good few glasses of red, and another Calcutta cup victory :smokin:

Tyres it's all about Tyres for me, track driving is so totally removed from road driving, it's been a steep learning curve ghat I think has been made easier by Starting off on road Tyres... Pushing on, and then overheating the Tyres :clown:and dealing with ensuing slides gave me some confidence to take on when I moved on to stickier Tyres


Finding the limits and what happens when you go beyond them is something that I think you need to do to build up your confidence, and a Csl on cups is such a formidable machine that those limits are way beyond what I'd feel comfortable with trying to find as someone just starting out :gayfight:

[3wheels3]

I did use to think about times quite a bit and still do but in the way that aslong as I'm quick enough to hang around others for a bit on track it's good enough for me and have a laugh on the day.

Really want some training day but more from a safety pov. I see Car Limits have place at Blyton, Lincs which could be better for northers....

[Curly]

I did use to think about times quite a bit and still do but in the way that aslong as I'm quick enough to hang around others for a bit on track it's good enough for me and have a laugh on the day.

Really want some training day but more from a safety pov. I see Car Limits have place at Blyton, Lincs which could be better for northers....

I've got to agree with wheels timing is not always the full story it's very hard sometimes to ever get a clear lap,nowt wrong with wanting to push on.
But trackdays is more about what you want to get out of it yourself,fun learning the circuit, sharpen ya skills,
It's a good thing to have some instruction when starting there is plenty to understand and learn.
Myself I enjoy going to new circuits and working out the new track if I can't get corner right I try think how I approached a similar corner on a track I've done,then if it's wet it's a different approach again all good fun,
I think a good thing to speed up the learning process is to get a video and position it inside the cabin so you can see your arm movements, gear change, turning points, apex and exits. So you can analyse it after the track day. It's surprising sometimes you can be a metre or two off line that you don't notice at first in the heat of the moment.
Myself it was always a good craic having a little friendly battle with someone in the same car learning as you go along

[shimmy]

Curly, thanks for the reminder......for me the first 10-15 trackdays I was virtually by myself and timing nd morovement was everything


But the last two years, helped by you and some other guys, I have learnt to enjoy the 'swordplay' out there and have some fun (then watch the timing in the last 30mins of the day.

I've found that 95% of the time even if I try all day, the faster lap will be in the last 30 mins.....others may be different.

[rstoughy]

I think for me it has to be some instruction. I have always run the CSL with the TC off and no M-trac since i bought it 3 yrs ago. I feel this has been invaluable now as it has taught me what the car does, where that breaking point of traction is, how quickly it WILL kick out on you mid corner but also how quickly it can be caught and brought back into line. The difference between the breaking point of a PS2 v's Cup is so different, slow and progressive v's quick and ar$e splitting!!

Oulton in Nov was great for me. Another circuit i've never done and was pretty slippery. Even in the later part of the day if you were off line a little then you were on the slippy stuff. Was happy with my times for that day and had no heroics. Just learning the track keeping it smooth and consistent.
http://vimeo.com/32770800

I to am also guilty of not looking through the corners, more a case of looking where i am and not where i'm going :bigcry: something i need to work on.

Im not the quickest out there but I do have fun and for me thats really what a track day is all about. Getting with like minded folk and having a good time.

Am going to make a point of booking some instruction at any events i do this year just to see where my downfalls are.

[Trawler]

+1 for CAT training :)
& Car Limits
Palmer sport day is also good to push on in a few cars, with an instructor shouting at you to go faster :hahaha:

:thumbs: for CAT training. Must try car limits. How the hell can one practice looking where one wants to go when one can only look a few yards ahead watching out for potholes on the road.

Will have more instruction this year.

[shimmy]

Instruction is an interesting topic, by no means straight forward. The wrong type at the wrong time and it can do nothing for you or at best will make minor improvements.

I've probably had 12-15 sessions or days with different guys and sometimes they were worthless. Sometimes that was the fact I didn't take it in or understand and sometimes the teaching was on the wrong level.

The biggest instruction to make a difference to me was Mike Wilds at Snett. One session where he watched me drive, then demonstrated what I needed to do to drive a corner properly, then left me to it until the afternoon. It was a revelation to have it demonstrated so cleanly and purely. I think it was the right person at the right time and gave me 5% more confidence that got me across a barrier to letting the car get out of shape and at the same time feeling the control to plant the throttle.

Looking back I don't just think it was Mike but maybe that added to the stuff I had already soaked up from the previous years just waiting to be brough together.

[Trawler]

Yep Shimmy, instruction is not straight forward, but every time I have felt I have learnt something, which, I try to put into practice. The hardest part is finding someone who can put it over in a way that I understand & has the patience to answer my questions. Different instructor technique also plays a part i.e. one instructor may like more oversteer in a car than another.

[shane@mbtech]

Curly, thanks for the reminder......for me the first 10-15 trackdays I was virtually by myself and timing nd morovement was everything


But the last two years, helped by you and some other guys, I have learnt to enjoy the 'swordplay' out there and have some fun (then watch the timing in the last 30mins of the day.

I've found that 95% of the time even if I try all day, the faster lap will be in the last 30 mins.....others may be different.

My fastest laps of any circuit have been the last 30 minutes too.

[northernjim]

My fastest laps of any circuit have been the last 30 minutes before crashing too.

Sounds about right:smokin:

[s.mac]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawsy http://www.cslregister.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.cslregister.com/forum/showthread.php?p=106979#post106979)
My fastest laps of any circuit have been the last 30 minutes before crashing too.

Sounds about right:smokin:


sounds familiar on this site, anything to do with all the booze on our pre track day sessions :whistle:

[shane@mbtech]

Sounds about right:smokin:

not crashed on track------Yet:hahaha:

Had a few "controlled" offs, mostly luck, but I tend not to panic when I lose it. :smokin:

Edited to add, I did hit a lad in a skyline @ cadwell, More a case of being caught in red mist and assuming he was letting me through(in a convoy of 3 cars), he wasnt letting me through....ooops. Only light scuffing though, and I did pay for his damage there and then too.

[DuncanR]

Its all about bollocks ! .... how big yours are ... and tuning your hearing out to the people who talk it ...simple !:hahaha:



Seriously though, apart from learning what you/your car can do, at my age its equally important to know what you/it cant do, and if you stay below that threshold you survive.

Instruction - as alluded to is important, both car control, and track specific which will save you time in the long run. Better to burn fuel on the correct lines, than waste gallons of it on the wrong ones.

Information - virtually everything about every track and car going has been done before by others usually more skilled/experienced than ourselves. Its out there in all differing formats, especially in car vids etc. , find it, absord it, apply it at your next TD.

Masturbation - Knocking one out is most important to a succesful TD, it reduces stress levels and clears your head ready for the day ! Its best done in private somewhere, its not advisable to go and splatter the baby batter at the safety briefing, get it done, and get on with driving !

That is all.

[CraigMillwardCroft]

Brilliant drivers briefing :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha: