To Supersprint Header or not?

[shimmy]

Got a brand new stepped one sitting wrapped up in the garage all ready but can decide if I can be bothered to put it in the car!


HELP:hahaha:

[shane@mbtech]

Got a brand new stepped one sitting wrapped up in the garage all ready but can decide if I can be bothered to put it in the car!


HELP:hahaha:


If you have bought it, get it fitted. You will never know if it will work or not if it stays on the floor in the garage.

[northernjim]

pics please of a standard one and the supersprint offering:beer:


Do you lot never qualify your mods with a rolling road run before and after mods to see if there is any difference? I am such a numb nuts ( thought I'd get that out before one of many piped up with it:birdman:) I like the read outs to reinforce any actual driving differences I feel.....


I know they always vary and are never 100% accurate

[shimmy]

Gains are minimal but I wil do RR at same time

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp97/shimmylasco/CSL/3eb402dd.jpg

[northernjim]

that picture is fukin useless Shimay :birdman:


get it all out and lego it together so I can see it properly:smt055

[Funkster]

that picture is fukin useless Shimay :birdman:


get it all out and lego it together so I can see it properly:smt055

I think he,s telling porkie pies, from here it looks like a kids trampoline frame ;)

[mattCSLnut]

that picture is fukin useless Shimay :birdman:


get it all out and lego it together so I can see it properly:smt055

I think Roberto might have that sort of pix :whistle:

[alexk]

pics please of a standard one and the supersprint offering:beer:


Do you lot never qualify your mods with a rolling road run before and after mods to see if there is any difference? I am such a numb nuts ( thought I'd get that out before one of many piped up with it:birdman:) I like the read outs to reinforce any actual driving differences I feel.....


I know they always vary and are never 100% accurate

I do mate :thumbs:

[glendog74]

Got a brand new stepped one sitting wrapped up in the garage all ready but can decide if I can be bothered to put it in the car!


HELP:hahaha:

You still not done this?! You may as well skip it... :hahaha:

[flow]

Sell it and buy some beers with the money :thumbs: .

You have seen the little difference with my car (full supersprint and cams + map) .
My CSL was only a bit faster at high revs .

[s.mac]

You may as well skip it... :hahaha:

that good Rob?

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

The ''Gains' it makes will depend
on who, how and where, its 'Dyno'd'.

You only have to look at the recent Lap times
at Britcar.

Sureal how many S54s make over 400
BHP on the std Injectors when the
Data from the Injectors Duty cycle
proves its factually impossible.

But hey, what the fuck do I know.


Regards,

The Gorilla.

[glendog74]

Hi,

The ''Gains' it makes will depend
on who, how and where, its 'Dyno'd'.

You only have to look at the recent Lap times
at Britcar.

Sureal how many S54s make over 400
BHP on the std Injectors when the
Data from the Injectors Duty cycle
proves its factually impossible.

But hey, what the fuck do I know.


Regards,

The Gorilla.

You know lots Mr Primate ;)

[northernjim]

Hi,

The ''Gains' it makes will depend
on who, how and where, its 'Dyno'd'.

You only have to look at the recent Lap times
at Britcar.

Sureal how many S54s make over 400
BHP on the std Injectors when the
Data from the Injectors Duty cycle
proves its factually impossible.

But hey, what the fuck do I know.


Regards,

The Gorilla.


I agree with the inconsistencies in RR data, how tight the straps are and a whole load of other variables can be used to 'influence' shall we say the outcome....


but re the injectors, what size are they as standard?


and how lean does a csl run? as if the injectors are maxxed out then you'll just get more power from a the leaner mixture???? ( upto a point?) This may be a case of a little knowledge that can do a lot of harm in the wrong (my) hands:clown:

can you explain in laymans terms mr Primate please:beer:

[s.mac]

I agree with the inconsistencies in RR data, how tight the straps are and a whole load of other variables can be used to 'influence' shall we say the outcome....


but re the injectors, what size are they as standard?


and how lean does a csl run? as if the injectors are maxxed out then you'll just get more power from a the leaner mixture???? ( upto a point?) This may be a case of a little knowledge that can do a lot of harm in the wrong (my) hands:clown:

can you explain in laymans terms mr Primate please:beer:

WTF NUMB NUTS
Stick to your normal posts
http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq253/ilikethealps/tumblr_ktx3ajLw9Z1qzy9ouo1_500.jpg

[Bounce]

WTF NUMB NUTS
Stick to your normal posts
http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq253/ilikethealps/tumblr_ktx3ajLw9Z1qzy9ouo1_500.jpg:hahaha::hahaha: :thumbs:

[northernjim]

WTF NUMB NUTS
Stick to your normal posts


:hahaha::banghead: thats me put back in my place!!! I will have to see how many laps i need to do, to lap you at oulton:birdman:cnut

:hahaha::hahaha::thumbs:

you can pipe down too laughing smiley man:hahaha::blalalala:

[s.mac]

I will have to see how many laps i need to do, to lap you at oulton:birdman:cnut

:smt044

[glendog74]

WTF NUMB NUTS
Stick to your normal posts
http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq253/ilikethealps/tumblr_ktx3ajLw9Z1qzy9ouo1_500.jpg

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::t humbs:

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

NortherJim- This explains the basic paramiters.

Save me from typing it all out !!

'''There are a few important factors that you must take into account when modifying an electronic fuel injection engine. These are: the pulse duration of the injectors and the duty cycle.

The injector pulse duration is the amount of time that the injector is held open so that it can inject fuel into the combustion chamber. The pulse duration is controlled by the engine control unit (ECU) and is dependent on various sensors in the electronic fuel injection (EFI) system. The longer the pulse duration, the more fuel is added to the air/fuel mixture. The amount of fuel required at any one time varies by the amount of air flow, the air density, the engine load, and the engine temperature. Therefore the pulse duration will vary. However, there is only a limited amount of time that the injector can be held open at each revolution of the engine. This amount of time is reduced as engine speed increases. For example, at 600 RPM the available time is 0.1 seconds (60 seconds in a minute divided by 600 revolutions) but at 6,000 RPM it is only 0.01 seconds. The pulse duration relative to the available time at the engine red line is called the duty cycle and is expressed as a percentage. Thus a duty cycle of 80% means that at the engine red line the pulse duration (the amount of time the injector is help open) is 80% of the available time.
INCREASING THE DUTY CYCLE

Some engine tuners will tell you that if your car has a duty cycle of 80%, you have a possible gain of 20%. However, the injector is an electronic solenoid and cannot be held open for too long or it will overheat and fail. In practice most Nippon Denso and Rochester injectors will remain reliable at up to an 80% duty cycle; most Bosch injectors will remain reliable at up to an 85% duty cycle; and most Lucas injectors will remain reliable at up to a 92% duty cycle. Though even at these duty cycles it is still advisable to test the injectors. Test them specifically for their spray pattern and their flow volumes at the maximum duty cycle you require.

On a race engine I wouldn't exceed a maximum duty cycle of 80% as dyno-testing on various have shown that a duty cycle in the region of 60% to 70% produces the best power. This is because a shorter duty cycle does not allow for the proper atomization of the fuel, and proper atomization is important for the proper burning of the air/fuel mixture. I usually aim for a duty cycle at the point where maximum power is reached so as to ensure the longevity and reliability of the injectors. So, how do you adjust the duty cycle? By adjusting the fuel pressure and the injector nozzle size. On an OEM EFI system there are certain limitations on increasing the fuel pressure and the injector nozzle size. I'll discuss increasing the injector size in a while, but you can read more about increasing fuel pressure here.
INCREASING INJECTOR NOZZLE SIZE

Increasing the injector nozzle size will result in increased fuel delivery all the time. As "Langer" mentioned in engine basics, a rich fuel mixture results in power loss. Therefore, increasing the nozzle size could have a negative effect on performance and economy. The oxygen Sensor (O2S) will correct the fuel mixture for an injector that is about 20% larger than stock. However, on a pre-1996 EFI system, the ECU will ignore the O2S sensor under full throttle conditions. Furthermore, the OEM ECU will not be able to handle an injector that is more than 20% larger than stock and will suspect that one or more of its sensors are faulty and will revert to its programmed settings, which means that the fuel air mixture will not be optimal and will probably be rich as this is the failsafe setting on the ECU when it suspects that its sensors are faulty.'''''




Without going into specific Calculations,
at 85% of their Duty cycle running at
6 Bar fuel pressure [86 psi] + 1 Bar
over std, which is very high, then the
std S54/CSL injectors are capable of a fuel
poundage which equates to around
370/380 BHP on a L6 engine.

Reducing the Injector Duty cycle down to say
70/75% for a performance Race engine
High lift Cams, 12.5 CR and so on, would
equate to around 370 BHP at very best.

Its why the Fuel Injectors of the F430,
carried over from the Enzo and used in the 458
are regarded as one of best as they
use a a 5 nozzle arrangement giving immense
spray volume but without really fine atmoization
which for a high performance engine is
exactly what you really want.

Its also why back in the days of the 'real' DTM
era, 4 pots started running 8 injectors, as
the sequential injection with the second bank
of 4 mounted further up the Intake runner,
coming in at say 6000 rpm would keep
the fuel atomization from going to fine
right when the engine was making peak
power..

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[s.mac]

you asked Jim :hahaha: now you are FoOKInG confused













it takes far less than that to lose Jim Gorilia
;)

[shane@mbtech]

Hi,

NortherJim- This explains the basic paramiters.

Save me from typing it all out !!

'''There are a few important factors that you must take into account when modifying an electronic fuel injection engine. These are: the pulse duration of the injectors and the duty cycle.

The injector pulse duration is the amount of time that the injector is held open so that it can inject fuel into the combustion chamber. The pulse duration is controlled by the engine control unit (ECU) and is dependent on various sensors in the electronic fuel injection (EFI) system. The longer the pulse duration, the more fuel is added to the air/fuel mixture. The amount of fuel required at any one time varies by the amount of air flow, the air density, the engine load, and the engine temperature. Therefore the pulse duration will vary. However, there is only a limited amount of time that the injector can be held open at each revolution of the engine. This amount of time is reduced as engine speed increases. For example, at 600 RPM the available time is 0.1 seconds (60 seconds in a minute divided by 600 revolutions) but at 6,000 RPM it is only 0.01 seconds. The pulse duration relative to the available time at the engine red line is called the duty cycle and is expressed as a percentage. Thus a duty cycle of 80% means that at the engine red line the pulse duration (the amount of time the injector is help open) is 80% of the available time.
INCREASING THE DUTY CYCLE

Some engine tuners will tell you that if your car has a duty cycle of 80%, you have a possible gain of 20%. However, the injector is an electronic solenoid and cannot be held open for too long or it will overheat and fail. In practice most Nippon Denso and Rochester injectors will remain reliable at up to an 80% duty cycle; most Bosch injectors will remain reliable at up to an 85% duty cycle; and most Lucas injectors will remain reliable at up to a 92% duty cycle. Though even at these duty cycles it is still advisable to test the injectors. Test them specifically for their spray pattern and their flow volumes at the maximum duty cycle you require.

On a race engine I wouldn't exceed a maximum duty cycle of 80% as dyno-testing on various have shown that a duty cycle in the region of 60% to 70% produces the best power. This is because a shorter duty cycle does not allow for the proper atomization of the fuel, and proper atomization is important for the proper burning of the air/fuel mixture. I usually aim for a duty cycle at the point where maximum power is reached so as to ensure the longevity and reliability of the injectors. So, how do you adjust the duty cycle? By adjusting the fuel pressure and the injector nozzle size. On an OEM EFI system there are certain limitations on increasing the fuel pressure and the injector nozzle size. I'll discuss increasing the injector size in a while, but you can read more about increasing fuel pressure here.
INCREASING INJECTOR NOZZLE SIZE

Increasing the injector nozzle size will result in increased fuel delivery all the time. As "Langer" mentioned in engine basics, a rich fuel mixture results in power loss. Therefore, increasing the nozzle size could have a negative effect on performance and economy. The oxygen Sensor (O2S) will correct the fuel mixture for an injector that is about 20% larger than stock. However, on a pre-1996 EFI system, the ECU will ignore the O2S sensor under full throttle conditions. Furthermore, the OEM ECU will not be able to handle an injector that is more than 20% larger than stock and will suspect that one or more of its sensors are faulty and will revert to its programmed settings, which means that the fuel air mixture will not be optimal and will probably be rich as this is the failsafe setting on the ECU when it suspects that its sensors are faulty.'''''




Without going into specific Calculations,
at 85% of their Duty cycle running at
6 Bar fuel pressure [86 psi] + 1 Bar
over std, which is very high, then the
std S54/CSL injectors are capable of a fuel
poundage which equates to around
370/380 BHP on a L6 engine.

Reducing the Injector Duty cycle down to say
70/75% for a performance Race engine
High lift Cams, 12.5 CR and so on, would
equate to around 370 BHP at very best.

Its why the Fuel Injectors of the F430,
carried over from the Enzo and used in the 458
are regarded as one of best as they
use a a 5 nozzle arrangement giving immense
spray volume but without really fine atmoization
which for a high performance engine is
exactly what you really want.

Its also why back in the days of the 'real' DTM
era, 4 pots started running 8 injectors, as
the sequential injection with the second bank
of 4 mounted further up the Intake runner,
coming in at say 6000 rpm would keep
the fuel atomization from going to fine
right when the engine was making peak
power..

Regards,

The Gorilla.


Good post G man, but please stop teaching these numb nuts too much- what is it they say..... a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. :hahaha:

[northernjim]

you asked Jim :hahaha: now you are FoOKInG confused













it takes far less than that to lose Jim Gorilia
;)

C unit!



Good post G man, but please stop teaching these numb nuts too much- what is it they say..... a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. :hahaha:

I have already said that:birdman:

tbh I was talking more about the AFR's, which once the injectors max out when you turn the 'wick'( technical term for you there steve go look it up:birdman:) up a bit, will surely lean the engine off with a result of more power ( not neccessarily safe long term power I add)

[titan]

Now thats what I call a post, cheers for that found it very useful.

[alexk]

Its also why back in the days of the 'real' DTM
era, 4 pots started running 8 injectors, as
the sequential injection with the second bank
of 4 mounted further up the Intake runner,
coming in at say 6000 rpm would keep
the fuel atomization from going to fine
right when the engine was making peak
power..

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Gorilla, excellent post !

Also, this is the case with superbikes like my RSV4 factory, they are running 8 injectors.