It had to happen.....

[shimmy]

I'm hooked.

I need to master the Ring.


Bugger, where can I get a cage?

[azrael]

Slippery scary slope :-D

I think best way is buy one of those caged nova's the locals use lol

[shimmy]

Slippery scary slope :-D

I think best way is buy one of those caged nova's the locals use lol

That's what I was thinking but that won't last long.:smokin:

[Johnnywb]

I definitely came away happier this time, maybe because i feel i'm getting to know the circuit a bit better. After a lap with Duncan, i'd love to be able to master it properly. It's getting embarrassing being overtaken by other CSL's all the time, i'd love to be able to keep up!

Just need more confidence in the circuit and more confidence in the car's abilities / my own driving.

Seriously considering a jahreskarte for next year.

[Bounce]

Slippery scary slope :-D

I think best way is buy one of those caged nova's the locals use lolOr use a mate's car.:thumbs:

[northernjim]

Or use a mate's car.:thumbs:

:whistle::whistle::whistle::whistle::hahaha::hahah a::thumbs:

[glendog74]

I hear Ford Focus Mk.1 are a cheap track slag that you don't mind spanking into the barriers as they are only around £2.5k to replace these days...

[Yanto]

I'm no expert Shim (obviously) but isn't it at the point now that you go on the ring in a car you'd lose no sleep over if you spank badly but also confident enough that it it won't shit fluids everywhere and cause an accident ? Caged and stripped newish motor ? Fook knows but unless a DN event, not for CSL now ??

[glendog74]

Bugger, where can I get a cage?

Ant/Julian at Simpson can help - pick up the phone... :whistle:

[TANKSLAPPER]

I'm hooked.

I need to master the Ring.


Bugger, where can I get a cage?


Forget about the cage just get some balls............ boy :blalalala:

T$

[shimmy]

Forget about the cage just get some balls............ boy :blalalala:

T$


I'm afraid in my case the two are not mutually exclusive :smokin:

[E46CSL]

I'm hooked.

I need to master the Ring.

Bugger, where can I get a cage?

Incurable disease till the money out.;)

[mattCSLnut]

Forget about the cage just get some balls............ boy :blalalala:

T$

:hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha: Ditto :smokin:

[Craig]

Sell you a nice caged 328i? :P

[shane@mbtech]

Im hooked too Shim:drool:

I am aiming for a sub 8 min lap next visit. Done an 8.10 btg this visit, with passenger and bit of traffic too. And it was only my second visit. Approx 18 laps under my belt now.

The place is fucking mega, already looking for next trip:whistle:

[Niel333]

Forget about the cage just get some balls............ boy

T$

I will sell my balls to be able to do one lap :drool: the closest I will ever get is Playstation...

[Johnnywb]

Im hooked too Shim:drool:

I am aiming for a sub 8 min lap next visit. Done an 8.10 btg this visit, with passenger and bit of traffic too. And it was only my second visit. Approx 18 laps under my belt now.

The place is fucking mega, already looking for next trip:whistle:


Lawsy, keep me in the loop, i'm keen to get out again. Don't think i'll be hitting a sub 8 lap mind!

[O'Neill]

Im hooked too Shim:drool:

The place is fucking mega, already looking for next trip:whistle:

+1 :supz:

[shimmy]

Im hooked too Shim:drool:

I am aiming for a sub 8 min lap next visit. Done an 8.10 btg this visit, with passenger and bit of traffic too. And it was only my second visit. Approx 18 laps under my belt now.

The place is fucking mega, already looking for next trip:whistle:

Ok, for all you Ring Masters, I need some clarification.

7.50 is the Full Lap official time and mos say bTG looses 20 secs so 7.30 would be official BTG target time.

My experience tells me 2-3 secs per minute is the difference between me driving a circuit well and the best time possible by an experienced and fast drivers which would mean 7.30 becomes 7.46 to 7.54 as a time I should be able to get when on the ball. Now I'm guessing as it is so fast and flowing, this will be a greater difference so probably a good target would be 8.00 as Lawsy says.


Now how does this stand with you Ring boys. Do any of you travel on a 8.00minute lap pace BTG, Curly, T$, Alex, Rob, Matt, Oneill, Dunc, Avevo And the rest?

[DazBlackCSL]

done a 8.05 clear track BTG ( on V3's not clubsports ) so better for the ring, was dry and on cups .. thats the best ive done, the weekend rob/alex/me were ring taxi chasing, so in traffic playing around with the taxi, we were doing 8.10's / 8.15's I think ..

Ok, for all you Ring Masters, I need some clarification.

7.50 is the Full Lap official time and mos say bTG looses 20 secs so 7.30 would be official BTG target time.

My experience tells me 2-3 secs per minute is the difference between me driving a circuit well and the best time possible by an experienced and fast drivers which would mean 7.30 becomes 7.46 to 7.54 as a time I should be able to get when on the ball. Now I'm guessing as it is so fast and flowing, this will be a greater difference so probably a good target would be 8.00 as Lawsy says.


Now how does this stand with you Ring boys. Do any of you travel on a 8.00minute lap pace BTG, Curly, T$, Alex, Rob, Matt, Oneill, Dunc, Avevo And the rest?

[Pip1968]

Crikey, I am miles behind with 8.38 being my best time in dry with traffic but nothing enough to make an excuse of. I know some of my loss of time is now being ballsy enough at Schwedenkreuz, Fuchsrohre and the fifth gear bend L after Kesselchen.

Pip :bigcry:

Ps. I'll get my coat.

[northernjim]

Ok, for all you Ring Masters, I need some clarification.

7.50 is the Full Lap official time and mos say bTG looses 20 secs so 7.30 would be official BTG target time.



my car takes 28 seconds to get from bridge to gantry.... I don't think Rob was 8 seconds faster as I was up his chuff by T13 again

25 is more accurate I think, sorry to be pedantic and move the goalposts slightly:birdman:

7:25 target less big cahoonas racedriver advantage....

[AlexGTT]

Ok, for all you Ring Masters, I need some clarification.

7.50 is the Full Lap official time and mos say bTG looses 20 secs so 7.30 would be official BTG target time.

My experience tells me 2-3 secs per minute is the difference between me driving a circuit well and the best time possible by an experienced and fast drivers which would mean 7.30 becomes 7.46 to 7.54 as a time I should be able to get when on the ball. Now I'm guessing as it is so fast and flowing, this will be a greater difference so probably a good target would be 8.00 as Lawsy says.


Now how does this stand with you Ring boys. Do any of you travel on a 8.00minute lap pace BTG, Curly, T$, Alex, Rob, Matt, Oneill, Dunc, Avevo And the rest?

Shim, as Daz said I expect most of my laps on TF days are in and around 8.05-8.15 on reasonable traffic laps.

My best so far is an 8.00 flat. Done on a deserted November weekday TF. There was zero traffic and no yellows all day. To be honest, for me it was as quick as I feel comfortable going without cage,etc. I believe the Ring is that kind of place where some people are prepared to press harder and others find their comfort zone. I could push harder but don't and enjoy it more than chasing times. The vbox just opens up a new element of studying lines and keeping the memories in the form of video has reinvigorated my passion for the place.

On Dest Nurb trip this time my best on vbox was 8.25 which accounting for having to go slow through old pits was adding an average of 15 seconds, it was a rough 8.10. It was an out lap and not flying, so fairly representative of a BTG lap and is about the same as my usual TF laps. I kept BTG timing up on vbox because of old pit cut through.

Knowing you and the way you drive I'd say your easily aiming at sub 8 min quite quickly. I think your best bet is to gain lap experience at a quiet time. I'm aiming to do my usual November trip for weekday laps. Lottery with weather but it's honestly the best laps I ever get in more than 5 years at the place.

[glendog74]

my car takes 28 seconds to get from bridge to gantry.... I don't think Rob was 8 seconds faster as I was up his chuff by T13 again

Hmmmm... You always seem to be quick through the early part of the lap through Hatzenbach and onto Kallenhard but i begin to pull away from Fuchsrohre on. ;) :smt055

I think i am around 8 min dead with a quiet track, 8m15s or so with traffic - all BTG.

[3wheels3]

Your target shim, curly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OtAPP-8tGo

[northernjim]

Your target shim, curly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OtAPP-8tGo

nice lap:smokin: held up a bit too , whats with the gaffa tape on the dash? is it holding it together?:hahaha:

[shimmy]

Your target shim, curly



Was Waitrose shutting early? :smokin:

[O'Neill]

Some interesting data here. Three CSL's, MKI and MKII 996 GT3, Z3M Coupe.

http://www.northloop.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?16016-GPS-Speed-map-of-the-Ring&highlight=TIMES (http://www.northloop.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?16016-GPS-Speed-map-of-the-Ring&highlight=TIMES)

[shimmy]

Some interesting data here. Three CSL's, MKI and MKII 996 GT3, Z3M Coupe.

http://www.northloop.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?16016-GPS-Speed-map-of-the-Ring&highlight=TIMES (http://www.northloop.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?16016-GPS-Speed-map-of-the-Ring&highlight=TIMES)


wow, now if i ever do the Ring that will keep me up at nights! :thumbs:

[O'Neill]

Wasn't Gaute a member on here?

[northernjim]

Hmmmm... You always seem to be quick through the early part of the lap through Hatzenbach and onto Kallenhard but i begin to pull away from Fuchsrohre on. ;) :smt055

I think i am around 8 min dead with a quiet track, 8m15s or so with traffic - all BTG.

appearance is the main thing:smokin:

my best is 8:06 BTG on a flying lap (in my car:whistle:) bigger cahoonas required for a better time, and new tyres too

http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq253/ilikethealps/photo-45.jpg

[AlexGTT]

Only just scrubbed in Jim.:smokin:

[shane@mbtech]

Shim, my 8.10 was a quick lap, but due to my inexperience there, there were parts where I backed off when I shouldnt have, backed off where in Duncs car I didnt have to. I got held up in bits of traffic, had soft springs bottoming out on inner arches and passenger too.

I know it seems like racing excuses, but I know my limits, I know the CSL's limits, and I was nowhere near either of them. It was my 15th lap of the place so I wasnt driving at near full tilt.

I seriously think that I would hit a 7.50 btg, under 8 quite easily in a well set-up CSL on my next visit.



Question is... do you have the balls to try?

[shane@mbtech]

Fuck me jim, they are damn near slicks, no wonder you were flying:smokin:

[northernjim]

Shimmy its a slippery slope, you know your car very well indeed, but you need to learn the track... and that is the thing which will hold you back- are you willing to spend the time and money learning it? without getting too carried away and binning it?

that last trip put me off TF days a lot- I felt it was quite dangerous out there over the weekend:bigcry: but trackdays are the expensive way ahead:beer:




Only just scrubbed in Jim.:smokin:

Fuck me jim, they are damn near slicks, no wonder you were flying:smokin:

if only they gripped like cups or slicks tho:bigcry:

[shimmy]

Shimmy its a slippery slope, you know your car very well indeed, but you need to learn the track... and that is the thing which will hold you back- are you willing to spend the time and money learning it? without getting too carried away and binning it?

that last trip put me off TF days a lot- I felt it was quite dangerous out there over the weekend:bigcry: but trackdays are the expensive way ahead:beer:

if only they gripped like cups or slicks tho:bigcry:


Cheers Jim

I've got a few things to decide before I engage first gear including

What car
Cage
TF and or TD
Let alone what bank to rob first


My natural driving is reserved and always within my limits, which doesn't preclude mishaps but starts in the right way. I won't get up to any sort of speed in 15 laps like Lawsy, more like 100 laps so I need to be looking at 10 visits and prob 3 years.

Biggest question if I do it is do I went/buy a shitter to cover the first year or do I cage the CSL and leave it over there?

[shane@mbtech]

My first visit there was very daunting. Shit myself in many respects, but I think most of that was down to scaremongering.

This visit I went out with Duncan, same car obviously and he taught me loads, I then took Jim out and he taught me loads too, Jim knows my ability (or lack of) in a CSL so I trusted his judgement in what he was telling me to do. I owe most of my quick learning to them 2 lovely chaps:beer:, duncan and Jim where like my very own Yodas.

I took the things they taught me then put in a few good laps, but the thing that helped me most was sat in the passenger seat of my car with my business partner driving. I suddenly realised I knew pretty much what corner was coming next at every corner. Because I wasnt worrying about driving, it was slower so I took everything in. I came back in and realised I had picked up pretty much every corner.

Obviously I did not know the fastest I could take every corner, that will come with time, but I felt I picked it up pretty quick. I am a quick learner in most things, and I am very good at remembering roads I have driven.

I dont think its as daunting as many make it seem. Get out there with some of the lads in CSL's. You will be surprised how quick you will actually pick it up.

I drive my CSL on track with DSC off as I personally am far faster this way. My 8.10 was with DSC on and the light didnt even flicker one bit- thats how I know I wasnt pushing.

[northernjim]

As Alex suggested november lapping will be very quiet indeed so I wouldn't write off TF entirely, especially as an introduction and learning curve...


and it really does not matter what car to start off in, and caged or not- although when you get down to below 8:30 easily the argument for a cage gets progressively harder to ignore...



tbh It would be nice to just drive the ring in a non track car, getting to know the place at a steady pace- i try and tell everyone I give a little advice to, to slow down so that you can pick up the pointers, markers, dots, kerbs you can take, turn in points.... once you've done 20 laps hire a bike and cycle it while a vln race is on- being close to the tarmac, seeing the camber, inclines and the lines the racers took was invaluable IMO

looking at my data I can pull 1.3g around 1 corner- I would never have realised why until I looked at it in the flesh:smokin:

treat it as a years project and you won't be above 8 mins at the end of it I guarantee

[northernjim]

I owe most of my quick learning to them 2 lovely chaps:smt055:smt055:smt055:beer:, duncan and Jim where like my very own Yodas.

I took the things they taught me then put in a few good laps, but the thing that helped me most was sat in the passenger seat of my car with my business partner driving. I suddenly realised I knew pretty much what corner was coming next at every corner. Because I wasnt worrying about driving, it was slower so I took everything in. I came back in and realised I had picked up pretty much every corner.


I dont think its as daunting as many make it seem. Get out there with some of the lads in CSL's. You will be surprised how quick you will actually pick it up.



spot on Shane, you can learn so much when you are not driving- your brain can just take it all in....


tbh the track is not daunting - its the other numpties on it:smokin: if you see a swiss X5 avoid it like the plague!

[glendog74]

that last trip put me off TF days a lot- I felt it was quite dangerous out there over the weekend:bigcry: but trackdays are the expensive way ahead

+1 :thumbs:

Cheers Jim

I've got a few things to decide before I engage first gear including

What car
Cage
TF and or TD
Let alone what bank to rob first


My natural driving is reserved and always within my limits, which doesn't preclude mishaps but starts in the right way. I won't get up to any sort of speed in 15 laps like Lawsy, more like 100 laps so I need to be looking at 10 visits and prob 3 years.

Biggest question if I do it is do I went/buy a shitter to cover the first year or do I cage the CSL and leave it over there?

Use the CSL Shim; you will only be disappointed in anything else 'inferior' or slower compared to the CSL. The CSL really is in its 'spiritual home' out at the Ring. It's not like the CSL is worth £60k anymore and you can definitely mitigate risk by only driving during the closed private track days which are much safer due to lack of idiots on track! :smokin:

There are the usual risks at the Ring just like any other track but of course there are some of greater concern like the TF numpties and the lack of run off but that risk is also part of what makes the place special and it cannot be compared to any other track i have driven.

Cage the CSL and simply get out on track and build experience steadily. I drive very similar to you only pushing once i know a track and my car's limits. You already know the CSL's driving charecteristics as Jim says so it is simply a matter of learning the Ring and gaining confidence. Smoothness is a very good attribute at the Ring; both in steering inputs and throttle control.

Within a couple more visits you will be down below 8min30secs BTG and by the time you have done around 50 laps things really start to click into place. I will probably fit a cage to my CSL at some point and feel that sub 8 min laps would be relatively straighforward for me with minimal traffic. My CSL never feels on it's ragged edge - unless i do something silly or end up on the wrong line before a corner due to overtaking slower traffic.

IMHO - drive the CSL at the Ring and don't throw money at a pointless 'Ring slag'.

Thank you for finally succumbing to the 'Ring Bug' :smt055

[merell900]

Sell you a nice caged 328i? :P

shimmy you should get a 328:thumbs:
you ´ll have more fun than with the CSL at the ring.
The CSL for SPA:whistle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E5byTCLai4

[merell900]

[quote=glendog74;96546]+1 :thumbs:



It's not like the CSL is worth £60k anymore and you can definitely mitigate risk by only driving during the closed private track days which are much safer due to lack of idiots on track! :smokin:

Touristenfahrer for me is much safer than track days.The people allow you to pass(pull right), and check mirrows.
I was at destinations and lots of then pull left :banghead:, didn´t allow you to pass.They drive like if it was a race.:gayfight:
Never again at the ring.

[glendog74]

Touristenfahrer for me is much safer than track days.The people allow you to pass(pull right), and check mirrows.

It's not like that on any TF day i have done of late! :hahaha: :bigcry:

[shimmy]

Shim, my 8.10 was a quick lap, but due to my inexperience there, there were parts where I backed off when I shouldnt have, backed off where in Duncs car I didnt have to. I got held up in bits of traffic, had soft springs bottoming out on inner arches and passenger too.

I know it seems like racing excuses, but I know my limits, I know the CSL's limits, and I was nowhere near either of them. It was my 15th lap of the place so I wasnt driving at near full tilt.

I seriously think that I would hit a 7.50 btg, under 8 quite easily in a well set-up CSL on my next visit.y?

Just chatting to AndrewM, prev owner of Duncs CsL and he said the best lap with trace in his CSL was 7m36s BTG.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

7.36 in a standard [engine] CSL ? at the
Ring- BTG ?

Loaded CSL with SuperCharger is 7.22 BTG.

BMW PR department missed an oppurtunity there
then !!!!

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[shimmy]

Hi,

7.36 in a standard [engine] CSL ? at the
Ring- BTG ?

Loaded CSL with SuperCharger is 7.22 BTG.

BMW PR department missed an oppurtunity there
then !!!!

Regards,

The Gorilla.



loaded lap is full lap like official 7m 52s lap,

[Curly]

Just chatting to AndrewM, prev owner of Duncs CsL and he said the best lap with trace in his CSL was 7m36s BTG.

Pity there was no vid of the lap

[shimmy]

Pity there was no vid of the lap

Gaute prob has some of the same sort of times.

am I right in saying BTG times you are not up to speed at the Bridge start point like on full lap, so it would be wrong to deduct exact time GTB from full lap?

[AlexGTT]

Gaute prob has some of the same sort of times.

am I right in saying BTG times you are not up to speed at the Bridge start point like on full lap, so it would be wrong to deduct exact time GTB from full lap?

Correct Shim.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Still not following this ?

Nordschleife is 20.8 km as used
for the RCN events.

For Tourists BTG its 19.1 KM.

Quote-

''On a tourist lap it's impossible to complete a whole lap without stopping to queue for the gates at 'C'. So the BTG method is to time your laps in a point-to-point style from the bridge to the gantry. On a trackday this is also useful, as you don't have to complete 3 whole laps (63km) to get one lap time. To recap: after exiting the carpark at 'C' on the map above, drive under the Bridge (Antoniusbuche) at 'B'. From here it's 19.1km to the Gantry (currently carrying Audi sponsorship) at point 'A'. Easy!''


Full 'Northloop'' Lap is I believe 22.8km.

So at 7.36, the std CSL time quoted BTG, its equall to around
38.5 secs a km on the 'shorter lap'. [19.1km] BTG.

The Loaded CSL Lap which was 7.22 over the
full Northloop, 22.8km is approx 31.5 secs a KM.

So the standard CSL quoted, in being 7 secs a KM slower
than the Loaded CSL on these numbers, is
approx 8.45 secs for the full Northloop lap 22.8km] which
is about 50 secs slower than the Official
time.

Is that what is being said here ?

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Curly]

Gaute prob has some of the same sort of times.

am I right in saying BTG times you are not up to speed at the Bridge start point like on full lap, so it would be wrong to deduct exact time GTB from full lap?

I might be wrong shim but the great gaute best vid lap was in the low 7.50's btg but his driftbox times was faster;)

[northernjim]

Correct Shim.

On a tourist day, 90mph is about the max at the bridge, whereas Trackday should see you at 155-160mph

But you will need to 'reduce speed' :gayfight: for the left right section of Tiergarten and by the hohenrain chicane you'll be doing the same speed

So the advantage is 70 mph reducing to 0 over 500m using my manlogic ....less than10secs?

[7.77]

to increase your lap time record in the nurb, you have to pratice there. there is a real difference between 0 and 50 laps (no brake needed), and 50 /100 laps, 100/200 and after 200 laps.

In fact, when you feel the necessity to have big brakes, when you litteraly push strong on the brake pedal, then you're around 8.00.

8.15 is easy, with little risk with a csl. i've done 8.19 warming the csl and the tyres during about 1/3 of the lap

after, you have to work

i was there on the 15th of august but with my 320d, miss csl had her period and unable to drive, during a private event, with the straight line open. a friend with his 997 gt3 (not rs) was there. his time was 7.42, he is not really good driver, still learning how to drive, but he has done 200+ laps there.

another guy was there with a stock 350z, just stripped (approx 1200 kgs), he has done about 40 laps.........his lap record this day was 7.43 :bigcry:

he doesn't really know the track, but this guy was a world endurance bike champion about 10 years ago. so he knows how to drive on a track

i'have videos of the 350z and the gt3 if required

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

''Some interesting facts about BTG:
The distance between the gantry and the bridge is almost exactly 1 mile, 1660mtrs.
It takes a top-end sportscar less than 25 seconds to cover this distance. Most normal cars with a 120mph top speed over 30 seconds.
A BTG lap is more than just 25 or 30 seconds slower, as the standing start from point 'C' adds another 5-6 seconds on most cars.
The straight is very bumpy, and is uphill all the way to the bridge.
Top speed is attained into the dip AFTER the bridge on a flying lap
On a BTG lap top speed is attained before Schwedenkreuz or in the Foxhole (for lower power cars)

This is from the Bridge to Gantry Website;.


Does make you wonder how some
people arrive at their lap times, given
the variables.

I always thought there was 1609 mtrs to the mile
so the extra 50mtrs seems to make no difference
either.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[7.77]

so, a btg lap for a stock csl should be less than 7.30 (7.25 infact)

[shimmy]

so, a btg lap for a stock csl should be less than 7.30 (7.25 infact)

So let's call BTG official time as 7m25secs as opposed to 7m52s for full lap.

Of Andrew did a 7m36 that is very quick, of he had a Perf Box:bigcry:

[_Nathan_]

7:36 wasn't a standard car though? It was Duncans car?

[alexk]

So let's call BTG official time as 7m25secs as opposed to 7m52s for full lap.

Of Andrew did a 7m36 that is very quick, of he had a Perf Box:bigcry:

Full lap is 7.50

[shimmy]

7:36 wasn't a standard car though? It was Duncans car?

Agree........ Bit lighter and Intrax.


Full lap is 7.50

Sorry, yes, get mixed up with slower GT3. ;)

[DuncanR]

On a tourist day, 90mph is about the max at the bridge, whereas Trackday should see you at 155-160mph

But you will need to 'reduce speed' :gayfight: for the left right section of Tiergarten and by the hohenrain chicane you'll be doing the same speed

So the advantage is 70 mph reducing to 0 over 500m using my manlogic ....less than10secs?You mean like we didnt on that lap I was driving Jim !! :hahaha:.

Andrew has genuinely always said that he regularly got a 7:40 BTG out of the Broom, and Steve Gill would probably back that up as he used to drive with him a bit , didnt you Steve ?? Steve??. A few weeks ago down at the Ring DN day, I took Andrew out in the Broom for old times sake and asked him about the 7:40 lap, he admitted that to achieve it, was .. "a bit scary", which sort of tells me that The Broom, even with its mods, (engine stock) is probably at its limit at about that time. The reason that Andy took the decision to cage his/my car, was self preservation, he could see himself getting faster, (he was doing quite a few laps a year) and took the very sensible decision to fit a cage. I for one think his claim of a 7:40 BTG is genuine.

[DuncanR]

Agree........ Bit lighter and Intrax.Thats gone to fook since I bought it !!:blalalala:

[SteveGill]

You mean like we didnt on that lap I was driving Jim !! :hahaha:.

Andrew has genuinely always said that he regularly got a 7:40 BTG out of the Broom, and Steve Gill would probably back that up as he used to drive with him a bit , didnt you Steve ?? Steve??. A few weeks ago down at the Ring DN day, I took Andrew out in the Broom for old times sake and asked him about the 7:40 lap, he admitted that to achieve it, was .. "a bit scary", which sort of tells me that The Broom, even with its mods, (engine stock) is probably at its limit at about that time. The reason that Andy took the decision to cage his/my car, was self preservation, he could see himself getting faster, (he was doing quite a few laps a year) and took the very sensible decision to fit a cage. I for one think his claim of a 7:40 BTG is genuine.
I only ever got high 7.50s in my white CSL on any lap that was timed, and I'm not convinced any of my other laps were any faster.

I know for a fact that when you get sub 8 minutes, every second gained is a lot harder to find (sounds obvious, but what I'm saying is gaining 10 seconds from 9 minutes to 8.50 is a lot easier than 8 minutes to 7.50).

I gave up timing laps after videoing loads and never improving on 7.5x on Cups. There are lots of faster CSL drivers than me, but I'm pretty sure that the laps Andy and I did together were high 7.50s at best. I'd love to think they were 7.40s, but realistically I think no chance. Andy may well have gone 15+ seconds faster when driving on his own, but we were reasonably similar in pace (andy being slightly faster) so I'm struggling to see where those 15 seconds would be made up.

I have little faith in the performance boxes now, having worked with them for ages at the ring. Most of my traces had something wrong with them - one time I compared laps with Andy, Gaute and myself in the PK one evening - we discovered I was 20km/h faster than both of them through the last corner on the ring - I can assure you I wasn't :hahaha:

Video footage is best, but even in that I've had some skips forward gaining a few seconds. The only reliable method IMHO is transponders with the sensor on the pit wall - we used that when I raced RCN with my grey CSL at the ring. I was high 7.50s in that car full lap, but that was on slicks (and the new car is night and day better than the white one.

I'm sure I can go faster, I need bigger balls - but there does come a stage when you say to yourself there is more to life than just times - all it does is give you an ego boost if its better than your mates, or has you chasing a goal that could have you pushing beyond limits and crashing. In the RCN race I came full throttle through the left hander just before Bergwerk, and someone had lost oil. I *almost* binned the car, and I reckon it was 100% the combination of andy walsh days and papenburg drifting that meant I saved the car (I was ready to slide it along the barrier to minimise damage, thankfully kept it on the black stuff). The next lap I came round and my main competitor in class (another CSL) had binned it at the same point and major damage to his car, he was out of the race.

Saving the car from crashing was 100 times more satisfying to me personally than chasing a laptime. Other examples are the time I had brand new cups fitted at tom's workshop in Kelberg where the sun was shining, went out on the ring and it was pissing down just before T13. That lap turned into a drifting lap, and having the confidence to drift the ring again was way more satisfying.

Do what Mark S and I did at a french trackday, forget the laptimes and just have a laugh (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwdC3jLIBjk) :thumbs:

[sailorbaz]

Not thread related but STEVE, Where have you been? Hello!!!

[SteveGill]

Not thread related but STEVE, Where have you been? Hello!!!
Hey Baz!

I'm in Malta now - still got the racecar in Germany, but I've sold the X6 and e92 m3 - so now all I can do is drift around Malta in my 320d :thumbs:

Maybe back next year or 2013 racing again - we'll see what the finances allow, still paying off the cost of the CSL Cup :hahaha:

[AlexGTT]

Great to hear from you Steve. I can see where your coming from. Funnily enough, just been properly sorting out my vbox data and video from Dest Nurb this year and I concur with your thoughts.

I have pretty much got as quick as I want to go at Ring and that's pretty much 8min flat BtoG laps with the odd clear high 7.50 thrown in. My absolute best is 7.58 and I'm more than happy with that and having an intact CSL.;) I finally calculated my full lap times from Dest Nurb (we had to travel slow through the old pit because of GP stand going up at T20). That was 8.35 full lap with a yellow section for oil and some traffic.

Like you said, there are plenty of guys going easy 8-10 seconds faster but I'm really not prepared to go there and if I feel the day (I'm talking TF days here) going a bit crazy, I'm quite happy walking/talking the carpark and settling down for beers in the evening.

I'm still trying to work out how to get my vids up. :whistle:As soon as I do I'll post those laps for interest.

[DuncanR]

Good to hear from you Steve, maybe Andrews 7:40 was a one off one with nooooooo witnesses !! .. :hahaha: .. it matters not , as you are both quick around there, and sage advice for anyone thinking that anything any quicker than about 7:50 ish is within easy reach of some of the CSL's on here that regularly do the Ring. Like Alex, I would be more than happy with anything near 8 mins, but even happier to keep taking the Broom home in one piece ...well sort of !
I would imagine the temp in Malta is just nice at the minute ! loved Gozo when I was out there.

[shane@mbtech]

Good to hear from you Steve, maybe Andrews 7:40 was a one off one with nooooooo witnesses !! .. :hahaha: .. it matters not , as you are both quick around there, and sage advice for anyone thinking that anything any quicker than about 7:50 ish is within easy reach of some of the CSL's on here that regularly do the Ring. Like Alex, I would be more than happy with anything near 8 mins, but even happier to keep taking the Broom home in one piece ...well sort of !
I would imagine the temp in Malta is just nice at the minute ! loved Gozo when I was out there.

The laps you followed me where pretty quick Dunc, approx 8.15 iirc, they where also very nice and stable with no heroics from either of us.
I reckon a sub 8 mins is comfortable pace, but dropping below 7.50 might be too risky, for what is fundamentally no prize apart from what Ste and Dunc say- bragging rights.

[titan]

An interesting thread to revive, a good read on a sunday.

The holy grail of sub 8 mins at the 'ring is a corker.

I've been in cars with talented drivers and witnessed some overtakes where quite frankly - if the other guy was unpredictable - thats going to be the end. In fact, heh, the evo ended up in the armco at the 'ring because of an unpredictable guy on an overtake.

My bro stole the keys to the CSL and banged out an 8:05. That was pretty fair. The fastest I ever went around in the evo was 7:45. Due to the speed differentials I reckon I've had the GT2RS round in 7:30 or less.

Seems to me that you either need to be right on the edge, or you just bring something mental and do it "in ease".

To give you an idea, the GT2RS was a few MPH short of 200 as we approached the bridge, was getting up to 170 before SX (no doubt could do more if a bigger set of balls were taken earlier on) and I had to come off the gas going up the big hill kesselchen because at 160 I was worried about bouncing off the track.

whats far more impressive is that vergers only gets about 110 up the big hill so think how much time is made up on the corners.

I've resigned myself to the fact that with 2 maybe 3 at most trips per year its now just an enjoyable social trip with a bit of track action. God only knows what the GT2 is capable of in the right hands, but I'm not sure I'd even want to be a passenger.

good luck to shim/lawsy if they want to get to 7:50's and less. You'll need to bend some cars along the way I suspect.

[shimmy]

Where did you get to at Oulton?:supz:

[magnust]

I've just read through the whole thread, nice reading, a lot of good thoughts. I've been to the ring a couple of times in my old car, a -96 M3, but haven't been there yet with the CSL. The problem is that I in no way can afford a "proper" accident at the Ring in the CSL. If I'd binned the cheaper -96 I'd managed. But then again, I really really really want to go, the Ring is in my mind the home of the CSL. It's where it belongs more than anywhere else. And I'm sooooo wanting to try out what the CSL will be like compared to the M3 3.2.



A fun surprise seeing this link below too :thumbs: Not only because it's extremely interesting set of data to compare and analyse to your own runs. :beer:

Some interesting data here. Three CSL's, MKI and MKII 996 GT3, Z3M Coupe.

http://www.northloop.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?16016-GPS-Speed-map-of-the-Ring&highlight=TIMES (http://www.northloop.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?16016-GPS-Speed-map-of-the-Ring&highlight=TIMES)

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Not sure if this is for real.

If it is, and the Car is as Claimed
then hats off, but I have never
heard a std E46 M3 that sounds
like that on the Rev Drop.

More so how the engine seems to
stay right in the Rev Band on the
up-shifts.

Christ 4th-5th in a CSL at Full chat with
a 3.91 Diff and the rev drops per gear
change are greater than in the vid.

Maybe I just got the Green eye at
the 7.35 time !!!

Regards,

The Gorilla.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXKrqi46JC4&feature=related

[E46CSL]

Good stuff. 240 kmh at Schewedenkreuz. Carried amazing speed into corners.

They may be doubts if this is real, but i have been a passenger with drivers who drive as well as that.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Quote- '' but i have been a passenger with drivers who drive as well as that.''

For sure there are some very quick drivers
about, but no matter how quick you are
you can not alter the Rev drop on a std
E46 M3 Gearbox.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[shane@mbtech]

Hi,

Quote- '' but i have been a passenger with drivers who drive as well as that.''

For sure there are some very quick drivers
about, but no matter how quick you are
you can not alter the Rev drop on a std
E46 M3 Gearbox.

Regards,

The Gorilla.
mes
Maybe the vid was sped up v slightly and thats why it seems to drop off quick and short.

He was baulked up v slightly a few times too, so under 7.30.

Did you not think the marshals waving the flags were waving very quickly:whistle:

[s.mac]

it doesn't look right to me :whistle:

[Bounce]

it doesn't look right to me :whistle:Agree,speeded up;)

[shimmy]

Agree,speeded up;)

hes shaking that steering wheel faster than DuncanR:hahaha:

[CraigMillwardCroft]

Great in car video :thumbs:

[Pooky]

That video's hilarious.

Interesting thread. Most of you wont know me as I'm a new CSL owner but I have a few years experience of the ring as I'm a handling development engineer (amongst other things) and I test on the ring, have been for 12 years. I did ring driver training with Dirk Schoysman as instructor, this is 4 days and 100 laps before you're allowed to go driving in the industry pool.

My two pence worth is that ring laptimes are largely pointless. All manufacturer laptimes are not acheivable, the cars are 'optimised', most will have different rubber and brake pads, some go further. The Corvette and Vipers are one off bespoke cars for example. Also, the laptime varies enourmously day to day depending on the conditions and humidity.

For me the satisfaction comes from analysis of my own driving and the car improving lap on lap until I'm confident the car wont go any quicker. Laptime comparison to another car or driver is something I never bother with.

And for those who say the ring isn't daunting, well it just hasnt bit you yet. It will.

Picking up on Steve's point of performance box timing this is the most reliable. What happens is that they tend to lose satellites because of the tree coverage so all files from the ring to need to have a 'repair' in the processing to fix the times.

But with videos being sped up and gps data not being repaired properly it just adds to the laptime comparison not really meaning a fat lot.

And last point, forget TF. Too busy, bad driving, bikes etc. If you want to go fast get on a proper track day.

[E46CSL]

To move that weight at that pace with that much power is a question I do have.

[AlexGTT]

That video's hilarious.

Interesting thread. Most of you wont know me as I'm a new CSL owner but I have a few years experience of the ring as I'm a handling development engineer (amongst other things) and I test on the ring, have been for 12 years. I did ring driver training with Dirk Schoysman as instructor, this is 4 days and 100 laps before you're allowed to go driving in the industry pool.

My two pence worth is that ring laptimes are largely pointless. All manufacturer laptimes are not acheivable, the cars are 'optimised', most will have different rubber and brake pads, some go further. The Corvette and Vipers are one off bespoke cars for example. Also, the laptime varies enourmously day to day depending on the conditions and humidity.

For me the satisfaction comes from analysis of my own driving and the car improving lap on lap until I'm confident the car wont go any quicker. Laptime comparison to another car or driver is something I never bother with.

And for those who say the ring isn't daunting, well it just hasnt bit you yet. It will.

Picking up on Steve's point of performance box timing this is the most reliable. What happens is that they tend to lose satellites because of the tree coverage so all files from the ring to need to have a 'repair' in the processing to fix the times.

But with videos being sped up and gps data not being repaired properly it just adds to the laptime comparison not really meaning a fat lot.

And last point, forget TF. Too busy, bad driving, bikes etc. If you want to go fast get on a proper track day.

Great insight. Thanks for that and good to have you on-board. :thumbs:

Agree about v-box/performance box. There are the occasional drop outs but you can correct it as you've mentioned.

Ref the video Gorilla posted, there's something very strange about it. Doesn't sound or look right and now I look back through your right, the rev drop off isn't near what it should be.

[mattCSLnut]

it doesn't look right to me :whistle:
+ 1 :smt017 a lot of Video cameras have a habit of making fast TD laps look slower then they actually are.
To me this video looks like it's had some :whistle: post production Editing :clown: Even the engine note sounds higher then normal + he approaches the gantry @ 7:40 :whistle:

[mattCSLnut]

All valid points well made :thumbs: BTW, Dirk Schoysman as your driver training instructor !?!? :supz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrXpCgCDoUM&feature=player_embedded

That video's hilarious.

Interesting thread. Most of you wont know me as I'm a new CSL owner but I have a few years experience of the ring as I'm a handling development engineer (amongst other things) and I test on the ring, have been for 12 years. I did ring driver training with Dirk Schoysman as instructor, this is 4 days and 100 laps before you're allowed to go driving in the industry pool.

My two pence worth is that ring laptimes are largely pointless. All manufacturer laptimes are not acheivable, the cars are 'optimised', most will have different rubber and brake pads, some go further. The Corvette and Vipers are one off bespoke cars for example. Also, the laptime varies enourmously day to day depending on the conditions and humidity.

For me the satisfaction comes from analysis of my own driving and the car improving lap on lap until I'm confident the car wont go any quicker. Laptime comparison to another car or driver is something I never bother with.

And for those who say the ring isn't daunting, well it just hasnt bit you yet. It will.

Picking up on Steve's point of performance box timing this is the most reliable. What happens is that they tend to lose satellites because of the tree coverage so all files from the ring to need to have a 'repair' in the processing to fix the times.

But with videos being sped up and gps data not being repaired properly it just adds to the laptime comparison not really meaning a fat lot.

And last point, forget TF. Too busy, bad driving, bikes etc. If you want to go fast get on a proper track day.

[Pooky]

Dirk does all the ring training where I work. Nice chap too, and spends a lot of time making sure you understand how the ring is not like anywhere else and that it will bite. He has a few good lines in places that he shared with Chris Harris when they drove together, Chris says they are worth a bit of time compared to most other lines but it's the only line I've ever known.

Dirk also does driving in the industry pool, runs a company that supplies drivers for the durability work, as well as doing some himself: www.topline.be (http://www.topline.be) . We also use him for lap times during car development if we need.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

When you compare the 'M3 Vid'' with
a Proper Fast car and Driver it highlights
all the issues.

Some of the footage in this Vid has been posted before
but I make no apology for that.

You got to be fully committed to drive this fast,
as well as talented and on the edge.

Handling F1 G -forces on a public road, that is real talent.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0XbztoQyEA&feature=related

[thegingerninja]

That vid doesn't look right to me either.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Quote- '' That vid doesn't look right to me either.''

Should have gone to Spec Savers then.

Edlinger is ex DTM Driver, I do not think
he requires Trick Vids to display his
ability or talent.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZZlAWdZ0QM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E4U1vZiNYc&feature=related

[AlexGTT]

Hi,

Quote- '' That vid doesn't look right to me either.''

Should have gone to Spec Savers then.

Edlinger is ex DTM Driver, I do not think
he requires Trick Vids to display his
ability or talent.

Regards,

The Gorilla.


Think he was probably refering to the M3 vid Gorilla.

[The Gorilla]

Hi.

TheGingerNinja- Apology from the Primate if
your remark was in regard of the M3 Vid.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[thegingerninja]

It was the m3 vid I was referring to - should have made my post a bit clearer. I think it is the steering inputs, they look too "jerky"? Someone also made a good point that in car vids usually look slower than they actually are.

No worries Gorilla, primates are allowed to rattle their cages every now and then.;)

[DuncanR]

hes shaking that steering wheel faster than DuncanR:hahaha:Cooont ! Im with others on here, that time in a reasonably std M3 is hard to believe, assuming he is driving with all TC off, that thing stuck too well at those corner speeds and entry speeds.

[mattCSLnut]

Someone also made a good point that in car vids usually look slower than they actually are.


Someone agrees ;) :hahaha: