Sport Button thoughts.

[shimmy]

If the sport button, when on,makes the car more twitchy at low revs surely at high revs it makes it less twitchy as surely it must be less responsive to pedal movement (at high revs)

Your thoughts please :supz:

[shane@mbtech]

If the sport button, when on,makes the car more twitchy at low revs surely at high revs it makes it less twitchy as surely it must be less responsive to pedal movement (at high revs)

Your thoughts please :supz:

At wide open throttle its the same whether on or off.

In sport, the pedal movement % increases the throttle open % compared to sport off.

It only makes the car more twitchy because most people are too agressive with the inputs. If you alter your input of pedal movement when sport is on and press the pedal slower and more progressively then it will take off the same as when sport not on.

[Porter]

On my old M3 and M5, which I guess both have a similar set-up, it always felt like the pedal:throttle opening curve had just been shortened.

Which, in turn, meant that the throttle was fully open before the pedal reached the stops. I never liked the throttle response in Sport mode - it always felt too twitchy and I don't see why that is better - if I wanted full throttle, quickly, I'd push the pedal down quickly. Irritatingly, the button also did various other things that I liked (steering weight etc), so I used to put up with the throttle response.

The CSL may be different - can't wait to find out!

[shane@mbtech]

On my old M3 and M5, which I guess both have a similar set-up, it always felt like the pedal:throttle opening curve had just been shortened.

Which, in turn, meant that the throttle was fully open before the pedal reached the stops. I never liked the throttle response in Sport mode - it always felt too twitchy and I don't see why that is better - if I wanted full throttle, quickly, I'd push the pedal down quickly. Irritatingly, the button also did various other things that I liked (steering weight etc), so I used to put up with the throttle response.

The CSL may be different - can't wait to find out!


CSL sport only alters throttle. Thats it.

[shimmy]

At wide open throttle its the same whether on or off.

In sport, the pedal movement % increases the throttle open % compared to sport off.

It only makes the car more twitchy because most people are too agressive with the inputs. If you alter your input of pedal movement when sport is on and press the pedal slower and more progressively then it will take off the same as when sport not on.

Yes but more twitchy low revs sport on because you are playing with more throttle with less pedal movement.....meaning at high revs sport on you'll be playing with less throttle change with more pedal movement

[Porter]

CSL sport only alters throttle. Thats it.

Thanks. Does that include changing the behaviour of the airbox intake flap and hence the induction response/note at lower revs?

[shane@mbtech]

Thanks. Does that include changing the behaviour of the airbox intake flap and hence the induction response/note at lower revs?

It does, but that will probably break anyway:hahaha:

[shimmy]

It does, but that will probably break anyway:hahaha:


If it's in!

[shane@mbtech]

Yes but more twitchy low revs sport on because you are playing with more throttle with less pedal movement.....meaning at high revs sport on you'll be playing with less throttle change with more pedal movement

Do you really give a shit:smt038:smokin:


I think it will have a ceiling, wherein the difference is non existant between sport on/off. Say 70% pedal movement above is always equal to throttle opening, regardless of sport on/off.

[glendog74]

Sport Button thoughts.

It's a rectangular, black plastic button. End of.

[shimmy]

Do you really give a shit:smt038:smokin:

.

Just making conversation :smt055

[karbonkid]

Should this not have been posted in the Technical Area!? :clown:

[shimmy]

Should this not have been posted in the Technical Area!? :clown:

I would have done but anytime I post anything technical Lawsy laughs at me :bigcry:

[_Nathan_]

Nothing to do with high revs and low revs?

[RolyGTIR]

At wide open throttle its the same whether on or off.

In sport, the pedal movement % increases the throttle open % compared to sport off.

It only makes the car more twitchy because most people are too agressive with the inputs. If you alter your input of pedal movement when sport is on and press the pedal slower and more progressively then it will take off the same as when sport not on.

+1 Shane :thumbs:

Shim I have lots of Sport Button thoughts, usually day dreaming at work! :drool: Oh by the way got the job and start on the 27th June :smt023

[shimmy]

Nothing to do with high revs and low revs?


ok, so its the amount of pedal travel i am on about (didnt soemone post a table of pedal travel to throttle opening sport on and off recently)

what im getting at is that if the car is harder to control at initial pedal movement with sport on surely it is easier to control at the bottom as it has more travel for less throttle response

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

The E.gas [Fly by wire] is controlled by
the thottle inputs to the engine load.

The E.gas Stepper Motor, is a linear motor,
it opens and closes the throttle bodies as there is no
throttle cable, which is via the input signals from the
Throttle pedal potentiometer.

ie ] Right foot input.

When the Sport Button is engaged, the
ECU alters the amount of fueling,
so that more fuel is allowed into the injectors.

Thus at equal throttle openings, but with ''Sport mode''
''on'', the engine gets more fuel.

Unless this fuel is burnt it will make for a
''Jerky'' ride as the ECU detects unburnt fuel and
cuts the fuelling to the injectors.

And so the ''Jerky'' cycle continues.

As Lawsy said, smoother pedal input loads will help,
as for a smaller pedal movement the engine
receives the same amount of fuel,
or its foot to the floor, and away you go.

The more you try and 'modulate the pedal'
in Sport mode the worse it gets.

Its part of the reason, although most of the
ECU brigade diagree, that I prefer an S54
with a Throttle cable.

Reason being is that on Track coming out of
slower corners its much easier to feather the
throttle modulation to keep the engine well
in the Rev band without getting into issues
wherby throttle inputs get your right foot
ahead of the E.gas Stepper motor.


Regards,

The Gorilla.

[toplad]

End of

Topic closed :smt023

[DuncanR]

CSL sport only alters throttle. Thats it. Not true Lawsy ... it fooked my steering up once !!!! :hahaha::banghead:

[mattCSLnut]

The Primate has spoken :smokin: If anyone is still unsure, best you get your coat ;) :hahaha: The End

Hi,

The E.gas [Fly by wire] is controlled by
the thottle inputs to the engine load.

The E.gas Stepper Motor, is a linear motor,
it opens and closes the throttle bodies as there is no
throttle cable, which is via the input signals from the
Throttle pedal potentiometer.

ie ] Right foot input.

When the Sport Button is engaged, the
ECU alters the amount of fueling,
so that more fuel is allowed into the injectors.

Thus at equal throttle openings, but with ''Sport mode''
''on'', the engine gets more fuel.

Unless this fuel is burnt it will make for a
''Jerky'' ride as the ECU detects unburnt fuel and
cuts the fuelling to the injectors.

And so the ''Jerky'' cycle continues.

As Lawsy said, smoother pedal input loads will help,
as for a smaller pedal movement the engine
receives the same amount of fuel,
or its foot to the floor, and away you go.

The more you try and 'modulate the pedal'
in Sport mode the worse it gets.

Its part of the reason, although most of the
ECU brigade diagree, that I prefer an S54
with a Throttle cable.

Reason being is that on Track coming out of
slower corners its much easier to feather the
throttle modulation to keep the engine well
in the Rev band without getting into issues
wherby throttle inputs get your right foot
ahead of the E.gas Stepper motor.


Regards,

The Gorilla.

[3wheels3]

...(didnt soemone post a table of pedal travel to throttle opening sport on and off recently)...

I have seen a graphical representation of it somewhere & know what you're getting at :thumbs:

[3wheels3]

shim


http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/M3Dust/M3ThrottleMap.jpg

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/7931/m3throttlethoughtslk6.png

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-10/1223644/SportModeThrottleAngles.JPG

[ando]

And here's me thinking it was something to do with the Flux Capacitor????

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Who complied that Graph please ?

Reason is that its incorrect.

A TB will give its max performance at
something like 92/93% of opening.

The reason is simple the ''butterfly''
obstructs the flow path so it can
never give 100 % throttle opening
it can only give 100 % on the Throttle
angle.

Therefore, accordingingly the Graph
would be showing 100% throttle angle
which in real terms would be approx
93% open Butterfly at 80% of Pedal travel.

The M3 Throttle Pedal has a detent set
at something like 95% of travel
for this very reason.

Some alter the Throttle pedal detent thinking
that the final 5% pedal, will give more power,
when the Throttle bodies are already
maxed out at 95% of butterfly opening.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[3wheels3]

Hi,

Who complied that Graph please ?

Reason is that its incorrect.
...
Regards,

The Gorilla.

Hi

Searched google, something like 'e46 m3 throttle position sport mode', images only. Gives 3 or 4 different graphs different sources.

eg http://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5850

[azrael]

This thread would be more interesting if it was sports illustrated :(

[glendog74]

This thread would be more interesting if it was sports illustrated :(

Shimmy has a lot to answer for... :bigcry:

[3wheels3]

This thread would be more interesting if it was sports illustrated :(

There's an app for that :thumbs:

[shimmy]

Hi,

Who complied that Graph please ?

Reason is that its incorrect.

A TB will give its max performance at
something like 92/93% of opening.

The reason is simple the ''butterfly''
obstructs the flow path so it can
never give 100 % throttle opening
it can only give 100 % on the Throttle
angle.

Therefore, accordingingly the Graph
would be showing 100% throttle angle
which in real terms would be approx
93% open Butterfly at 80% of Pedal travel.

The M3 Throttle Pedal has a detent set
at something like 95% of travel
for this very reason.

Some alter the Throttle pedal detent thinking
that the final 5% pedal, will give more power,
when the Throttle bodies are already
maxed out at 95% of butterfly opening.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

i thought you said it was fuel related and nothing to do with pedal/throttle opening changes!

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Shimmy- you have me confused.

All I said was that the Graph was incorrect
in regard of the data provided.

I then gave some paramiters to explain
why I said the Graph was incorrect.

Last I explained the Throttle
Pedal 95% v TB's at full throttle.

I still maintain that the Fueling is increased
on the ''CSL'' Alpha N type set up
with the Sport Button on.

Reason being due to the Adaptive
fueling of the CSL ECU, that the std
M3 does not have.

On a standard S54 with MAF then its
throttle pedal angle v throttle angle,
over the Mid range only, which is all that can
alter, as the TB's are closed at the
start and open as wide as they can
at full throttle.

The start and end points are fixed.

ie] Pedal off would be zero, and
pedal fully depressed [95% to detent] would be
100 % of Throttle angle with
Butterfles giving approx 93/4% flow.

Go drive a Std M3 with sport on
and then go drive a CSL with
sport on.

Reagrds,

The Gorilla.

[shimmy]

........

When the Sport Button is engaged, the
ECU alters the amount of fueling,
so that more fuel is allowed into the injectors.

Thus at equal throttle openings, but with ''Sport mode''
''on'', the engine gets more

........

The Gorilla.

I just took this to mean that the only change with sport on and off is fueling

[_Nathan_]

I naively thought the pedal detent was only there for kickdown.

[alexk]

I naively thought the pedal detent was only there for kickdown.


I don't think the pedal detent is giving extra throttle travel.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Shimmy- after reading it back the way
I stated, I can see how it might appear
as if I was saying,-

''Press Sport Button, fueling is increased,
end of.

Which is not the case.

While the CSL Adaptive fuelling should
prevent any 'lean' burn, I believe that
the CSL also has its fuelling increased on
'Sport Mode' as a double precaution
against running lean.

Limp Mode, is fine, but at 8000 rpm
the damage would already done.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[cantfind1]

mmm interesting thread chaps.

One thing that hasn t been mentioned is the Idle control valve. In normal mode ICV provides the air to the cylinders up to about 2000 rpm I believe? Could be more.

However in sport mode the throttle bodies open earlier somewhere around 1500 I believe, ie the throttle bodies blend with the ICV air earlier.

So if you are finding that you car is a little jerky or hesitant in normal mode but when you are in sport it is a little smoother taking off from low rpm, then it is most likely caused by a sticky ICV. They have a habit of becoming clogged with carbon and not moving as freely as they should.

Instead of buying a new part for 200 odd quid, take yours off stick it in an ultrasonic cleaner and see how much of an improvement that makes to smoothness at low rpm. The ICV rarely fails, but the benefits of a clean are immense.

Other than that all the above is correct throttle bodies just open wider in sport mode for a given pedal displacement and flap opens earlier. Fueling is the same for throttle body angles in normal and sport mode, there are no separate fuel maps for sport mode in the MSS54HP ecu.

[cantfind1]

Hi,

Shimmy- after reading it back the way
I stated, I can see how it might appear
as if I was saying,-

''Press Sport Button, fueling is increased,
end of.

Which is not the case.

While the CSL Adaptive fuelling should
prevent any 'lean' burn, I believe that
the CSL also has its fuelling increased on
'Sport Mode' as a double precaution
against running lean.

Limp Mode, is fine, but at 8000 rpm
the damage would already done.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

AFR's in normal mode and sport mode are identical, there is no separate fueling for sport mode.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Cantfind1- quote-

''AFR's in normal mode and sport mode are identical, there is no separate fueling for sport mode.''

Sorry but I disagree.

The ''AFR'S'' [Air Fuel Ratio] will be the same at
''0'' of course, and at WOT [Wide Open Throttle].''

I maintain that when Sport Button is engaged on a CSL
then the fueling is altered.

Std M3 then no, as it relies on the MAF.

When you alter the throttle angle then by definition
you will move the Cam quicker in the mid range
on a varibale cam engine.

Retarding the Cam quickly to the maximuim Cam Retard
postion on a 'Cat' car is desired so that HC [Hydro Carbons]
and NOx feedgas emissions leaving the exhaust are minmised.
[Part why the CSL was not sold in Countries with High Emission
requirements, USA etc]

Inatke Manifold Pressure increases as the Cam is retarded due
to less fresh air being inducted during the intake stroke,

The O2 [Lam] sensors are not instantaneous and are now
having to respond even quicker than with Sport off.
So any original hesitation is increased.

Therefore to compensate for any hesitation the fueling
is altered.


Below is extract on from Alpha N type engine management.-
''
MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor sees a given load, the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) sees a corresponding throttle angle, the CTS (Coolant Temp Sensor) sees a normal operating temperature, and the O2 (Oxygen) sensor is saying the engine is too rich, the ECU will comply…to a point. When the ECU has leaned out the AFR (Air/Fuel Ratio) beyond what the programming claims is an acceptable range, the ECU will go into Open Loop and ignore the O2 sensor. It then reverts to Look-Up tables for its source of information. At this point, mileage will invariably go down, and often a trouble code is set.

Consider the conditions needed for the ECU to accept lean fuel commands. If the engine is warmer than it actually is, the ECU will accept leaner. If the engine is under less of a load, the ECU will want to deliver less fuel. If the incoming air is hotter, the ECU will accept lean commands more readily. If MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor equipped, less air entering the engine will require less fuel.''




I still maintain that on the CSL pressing the Sport
button does alter the fueling.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[cantfind1]

Hi,

Cantfind1- quote-

''AFR's in normal mode and sport mode are identical, there is no separate fueling for sport mode.''

Sorry but I disagree.

The ''AFR'S'' [Air Fuel Ratio] will be the same at
''0'' of course, and at WOT [Wide Open Throttle].''

I maintain that when Sport Button is engaged on a CSL
then the fueling is altered.

Std M3 then no, as it relies on the MAF.

When you alter the throttle angle then by definition
you will move the Cam quicker in the mid range
on a varibale cam engine.

Retarding the Cam quickly to the maximuim Cam Retard
postion on a 'Cat' car is desired so that HC [Hydro Carbons]
and NOx feedgas emissions leaving the exhaust are minmised.
[Part why the CSL was not sold in Countries with High Emission
requirements, USA etc]

Inatke Manifold Pressure increases as the Cam is retarded due
to less fresh air being inducted during the intake stroke,

The O2 [Lam] sensors are not instantaneous and are now
having to respond even quicker than with Sport off.
So any original hesitation is increased.

Therefore to compensate for any hesitation the fueling
is altered.


Below is extract on from Alpha N type engine management.-
''
MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor sees a given load, the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) sees a corresponding throttle angle, the CTS (Coolant Temp Sensor) sees a normal operating temperature, and the O2 (Oxygen) sensor is saying the engine is too rich, the ECU will comply…to a point. When the ECU has leaned out the AFR (Air/Fuel Ratio) beyond what the programming claims is an acceptable range, the ECU will go into Open Loop and ignore the O2 sensor. It then reverts to Look-Up tables for its source of information. At this point, mileage will invariably go down, and often a trouble code is set.

Consider the conditions needed for the ECU to accept lean fuel commands. If the engine is warmer than it actually is, the ECU will accept leaner. If the engine is under less of a load, the ECU will want to deliver less fuel. If the incoming air is hotter, the ECU will accept lean commands more readily. If MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor equipped, less air entering the engine will require less fuel.''




I still maintain that on the CSL pressing the Sport
button does alter the fueling.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Agree to disagree mate. the throttle opening in normal mode is the same as in sport mode there is no more air going in the engine for a given throttle position. Its just that in sport mode that given throttle opening happens with less pedal travel.

Sport mode is basically the same as fitting a sprint booster. Thats it. There are no different maps for sport mode. ie fuelling is the same it just happens at less pedal angle in sport mode.

No need to complicate things as it is very simple.

[glendog74]

:whistle:

[3wheels3]

...in sport mode there is no more air going in the engine for a given throttle position...

So the flap, assuming it's working, opening 3000rpm earlier makes no difference? I'm sure you can feel a difference :bigcry: especially when not in sport mode and it opens up at 6000rpm in which case 5000rpm there should be a difference between sport and unsport modes?

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Cantfind1- Quote-

''Agree to disagree mate. the throttle opening in normal mode is the same as in sport mode there is no more air going in the engine for a given throttle position. Its just that in sport mode that given throttle opening happens with less pedal travel.'' End Quote.

For the Throttle Butterflies to open quicker in
the mid range for the same throttle
pedal angle input, which the Throttle Angle change does,
then Greater air volume must be required to give more
revs over the same time period.

Any engine requires more air and fuel to make
more revs over a given period.

ie] Sport Off and then Sport On.

Air velocity [so volume] to a point, must in the first part increase
as the throttle Butterfly has opended further with
Sport on than with Sport off, for the same throttle
pedal distance travelled.

This process requires a greater air volume for
the same duration which in turn
requires more fuel.

There is no free lunch.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[alexk]

Gorilla bravo :thumbs:

[shimmy]

Gorilla bravo :thumbs:


I never trust a man who can't even do [/quote] button correct :thumbs:, he can't be technically capable at all!

[glendog74]

I never trust a man who can't even do quote button correct :thumbs:, he can't be technically capable at all!

:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

[shane@mbtech]

Hi,

Cantfind1- Quote-

''Agree to disagree mate. the throttle opening in normal mode is the same as in sport mode there is no more air going in the engine for a given throttle position. Its just that in sport mode that given throttle opening happens with less pedal travel.'' End Quote.

For the Throttle Butterflies to open quicker in
the mid range for the same throttle
pedal angle input, which the Throttle Angle change does,
then Greater air volume must be required to give more
revs over the same time period.

Any engine requires more air and fuel to make
more revs over a given period.

ie] Sport Off and then Sport On.

Air velocity [so volume] to a point, must in the first part increase
as the throttle Butterfly has opended further with
Sport on than with Sport off, for the same throttle
pedal distance travelled.

This process requires a greater air volume for
the same duration which in turn
requires more fuel.

There is no free lunch.

Regards,

The Gorilla.


But throttle opening % will yield same AFR whether sport on/off. The sport button just changes the :to: relation between pedal and throttle.

Cause and effect- obv throttle open wider changes fuelling, but is that not merely an effect of the cause- which is pedal % relationship to throttle %.

The fuelling is merely altered because the throttle has opened further. Regardless of whether you pressed pedal further or pressed sport.

I personally do not think it changers the fuelling directly, fuelling changes because of throttle opening wider/quicker.

I think the only alteration is in the pedal signals and that alone.

but if the primate can show me BMW techincal data to suggest otherwise then i stand corrected

Not an arguement, just discussion

[cantfind1]

But throttle opening % will yield same AFR whether sport on/off. The sport button just changes the :to: relation between pedal and throttle.

Cause and effect- obv throttle open wider changes fuelling, but is that not merely an effect of the cause- which is pedal % relationship to throttle %.

The fuelling is merely altered because the throttle has opened further. Regardless of whether you pressed pedal further or pressed sport.

I personally do not think it changers the fuelling directly, fuelling changes because of throttle opening wider/quicker.

I think the only alteration is in the pedal signals and that alone.

but if the primate can show me BMW techincal data to suggest otherwise then i stand corrected

Not an arguement, just discussion


Got it in one mate.

[glendog74]

I like goats.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Lawsy- No, sorry I do not have access to
any BMW Technical Papers on this.

I understand that your point is that the
AFR is linear in that the % ratio of air to fuel
is constant over the duration of the throttle
opening.

ie] the throttle butterflies travel the same distance
regardless if the Sport Button is on or off.

If I understand what your saying correctly
is that with Sport Button on the
same amount of fuel and air is used in
a shorter period ?

My Point is that with the Sport Button on
the throttle butterflies travel
a greater distance for the same % of pedal input
and as such the fueling has to be increased
to compensate for this.

This requires an increase in air velocity as the air
volume required has to be of a greater charge/volume
than if the Sport Button was off.

An increase in air velocity charge/volume will
also require and increase in fuel.

As the Standard M3 uses a Blade type MAF then
its fueling is via air volume /flow sensor, no matter
if the Sport button is on or off.

A Standard M3 is still subjected to the same
throttle angle change when sport is engaged
but is no where near as on/off to drive as a CSL.

20 or so BHP would not make that sort of difference
but an increase in fueling will.

As you know CSL MSS54 ECU does not use a MAF it uses load
with a TPS and a pressure sensor, and is also
why I believe that the fueling is altered on the
CSL.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[outnumbered]

I think you're nearly both saying the same thing, but I must be missing some nuance of where you might be disagreeing.

My understanding is that the throttle pedal controls one thing directly, which is the amount of air getting into the engine via the throttle butterflies.

The ECU is always trying to maintain the most efficient air/fuel ratio, so will alter the amount of fuel injected to try to exactly match the amount of air going in (along with input from other sensors like engine temp to get it right).

In sport mode, the throttle butterflies open wider for a given amount of pedal travel. Hence more air in, hence more fuel in.

[glendog74]

My head hurts :banghead:

[Bounce]

My head hurts :banghead:Just press the button and drive the fookin thing.:hahaha::hahaha:

[glendog74]

Just press the button and drive the fookin thing.:hahaha::hahaha:

+1 :thumbs:

This is all Shimmy's fault!

[AlexGTT]

+1 :thumbs:

This is all Shimmy's fault!


He's got a lot to answer for on this forum!:hahaha:

Now.........................where's that outrageous pink cocktail gone with the f*ck off big umbrella.:beer::smokin: Back to the sun.;)

[Bounce]

He's got a lot to answer for on this forum!:hahaha:

Now.........................where's that outrageous pink cocktail gone with the f*ck off big umbrella.:beer::smokin: Back to the sun.;)Bring the umbrella home with you as a prezzi for Robert.:whistle:;)

[glendog74]

Bring the umbrella home with you as a prezzi for Robert.:whistle:;)

:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::thumbs:

[AlexGTT]

Bring the umbrella home with you as a prezzi for Robert.:whistle:;)

Will do. One little pink cocktail umbrella for Rob.:gayfight: Check.

But if it puts my luggage overweight on the flight home I'm giving him an invoice with it as well.:birdman::hahaha:

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Hope to run a test this week
regarding the Sport Button.

Just waiting for some new TB's rubber
connectors as I had some with small
splits it.

It seems as if my understanding that the fueling
is altered with 'Sport On' is incorrect.

To check, I am going to disconnect the Stepper
Motor Throttle linkage, it just pulls off, so that I can open
the TB's manually.

Then with std settings, engine warm, I am going
to open the TB's very quickly manually to see if engine
revs are maintained and response is
constant to fast undulating throttle inputs.

Then repeat this with Sport On.

If its the same engine response in both cases than I am
incorrect, if the engine repeatdly chokes
or stops in std mode but is ok in sport mode
then it ain't just throttle angle that is changed.

Since this discussion started I have also looked
at the Throttle inputs on the E30 /S54 which is
a manual throttle, ie good old cable, and if you
try and arrange it so that the throttle pedal
input is linear to the throttle angle, ie] 1-1,
then it is almost impossible to get the engine
to tickover on anything less than about 1800 rpm.
[engine ticks over at 850 rpm]
Should add that this engine has no cold air
valve etc.

So I am having difficulty in understanding how the
throttle angle with sport on can alter so quickly up to 3000 rpm
when the cold Intake valve is still feeding an
'Emissions' engine up to and around 1500/1800 rpm.

Fuel consumption should be the same with Sport on or Off
if its only the mid throttle angle that alters ?

Regards,

The Gorilla.

.

[_Nathan_]

If you are on a standard ecu I suspect that test will lead to limp home or simething as requested throttle angle won't meet actual throttle angle.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Nathan- I am hoping not, as although
Car runs the std MSS54 CSL ECU,
it runs with no Vanos.

Do the test with car in 'N' and then
hopefully limp Mode will not come into play.

I was talking to a Guy a couple of weeks ago
who had some of the Dinan 55mm TB's.

He said that on a stock engine making around
320/330 bhp that there was no difference
which was interesting.

They have a full blown Race S54 with all
the toys running Pectel making around
the 400 bhp mark and the 55mm TB's made
a slight difference right at the peak of the
Cam lift, but not much else.

They run the infamous MS S54 Header on
this engine, which they believe gives
around 3/5 BHP for close on 7k euro.

Its runs no Vanos due to the Cam lift and
they switched back to a Manual throttle at the
start of this year.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

I am starting to wonder if the
Siemems MSS54 CSL ECU has
more than just fuel adaptation
when sport button is pressed.

Has anybody ever had a chance
to scan through the
Software to see if there is any sort
of default fuel trim for Sport ?

Reason being that if the Sport
button alters the throttle angle
to pedal angle ratio to the figures
as posted for a std E46 M3 [MAF],
then you would be as fast with
shiffting at 3/4 throttle as at WOT
with Sport on.

Very hard to change at a given 3/4 throttle
position though, much eaiser for your right foot
to goe all the way.

Yet the very idea of short shifting at
say 6500 / 7000 rpm seems alien to
a sport mode configuration.

My static test was a Primate Breakfast's
so will enlist a chimp to assist this
weekend.

Its also interesting to see what
KMS offer with a Pectel SQ6M for the/65/85
stepper motors.

They convert back to a Throttle cable.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[shimmy]

Sorry, no idea what that was all about but great to see it written down!:thumbs:

[AlexGTT]

Sorry, no idea what that was all about but great to see it written down!:thumbs:

It's still your fault.:clown:

[Bounce]

It's still your fault.:clown::hahaha::hahaha:

[Rutkowski]

....... throttle bodies just open wider in sport mode for a given pedal displacement and flap opens earlier. Fueling is the same for throttle body angles in normal and sport mode, there are no separate fuel maps for sport mode in the MSS54HP ecu.


my understanding is this;

1. The sport button causes a greater pedal angle displacement which translates into greater TB opening angle.

2. The gas pedal is a potentiometer so any changes in relation to throttle position vs opening angles are done via ECU... which regulates air & fuel.

3. When you drive at a constant speed and then press sport button on - what happens? The car speeds up.

so....

a. ECU 'knows' that at i.e. 50% throttle position angle in sport off - the TB opening angle is 50%

b. Press sport on - and re - read my point 2 again. We now have throttle position at 50% but TB opening angle is at 70%

c. Explosion in cylinders happens at an exact ratio of fuel vs air and therefore ECU has to have a different set parameters for air & fuel VERSUS throttle angle position.

SO... yes, press sport on while driving and what happens again? Is it not the same as you depressing the gas pedal few more angles? Engine RPM rises and so does the fuelling... Simple really.... but ALL controlled by engine ECU and therefore, there must be a different map / program for sport on and sport off mode.

I can't be any clearer than this!

[shane@mbtech]

my understanding is this;

gas pedal opens TB = more air enters engine @ greater velocity = greater volume of air = ecu releases more vpower 100ron to maintain correct ratio.

what some are saying is that gas pedal is being depressed @ a certain angle but it causes no more TB opening angle regardless of sport on / off.

Surely that's incorrect because when i am driving and i keep the gas pedal at a constant angle and then press sport on - the car speeds up! so what happened then? greater TB opening angle = more air in = more fuel

the sport button causes a greater pedal angle which translates into the above. It has to be a different engine map which alters angles.

The gas pedal is a potentiometer so any changes to opening angles % are done via ECU which regulates air & fuel.

you cannot say all it does is change angle of gas pedal with no further consequence... as i said, the car speeds up when you press sport on, which means it gets more fuel and air in.

What i.e. 10% is in sport mode

simples :hahaha:


Fuck off:birdman:

[AlexGTT]

Fuck off:birdman:

I can appreciate a man who cuts to the chase.:hahaha:

[Rutkowski]

Fuck off:birdman:

ahhh, so you have finally got it then?!!

i'm glad i could help!! :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha:

[Rutkowski]

....... throttle bodies just open wider in sport mode for a given pedal displacement and flap opens earlier. Fueling is the same for throttle body angles in normal and sport mode, there are no separate fuel maps for sport mode in the MSS54HP ecu.

my understanding is this;

1. The sport button causes a greater pedal angle displacement which translates into greater TB opening angle.

2. The gas pedal is a potentiometer so any changes in relation to throttle position vs opening angles are done via ECU... which regulates air & fuel.

3. When you drive at a constant speed and then press sport button on - what happens? The car speeds up.

so....

a. ECU 'knows' that at i.e. 50% throttle position angle in sport off - the TB opening angle is 50%

b. Press sport on - and re - read my point 2 again. We now have throttle position at 50% but TB opening angle is at 70%

c. Explosion in cylinders happens at an exact ratio of fuel vs air and therefore ECU has to have a different set parameters for air & fuel VERSUS throttle angle position.

SO... yes, press sport on while driving and what happens again? Is it not the same as you depressing the gas pedal few more angles? Engine RPM rises and so does the fuelling... Simple really.... but ALL controlled by engine ECU and therefore, there must be a different map / program for sport on and sport off mode.

I can't be any clearer than this!

[_Nathan_]

Its also interesting to see what
KMS offer with a Pectel SQ6M for the/65/85
stepper motors.

They convert back to a Throttle cable.


I have a wiring diagram for that installation with DBW?

I have seen a linkage to control both banks with a single DBW motor though, can't remember where.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Nathan- yes KMS offer this for their
Pectel/V10 kit and now their S65
Kit as well.

I have a Link here somewhere to
a Guy who is doing the V10 / E46
conversion, and using the KMS
Kit, with the Manual throttle
conversion kit.

I have always maintained that the
the S54 is much more responsive
with a Throttle cable than DBW E-Gas
and much better for exiting out of the tighter
twisties.

Interesting that the FIA in the 'Blown Diffuser'
row, are now looking into the correlation of the
engine throttle inputs in relation to the engine
load ,as the blown diffuser uses fuel on the
overrun, something which Renault were doing back
in the eighties.

Which was escalated by how poor Renault performed
this weekend.

Vetel is Sennaesque on throttle load and inputs
entering and exiting corners, so the fact that there
is fuel on the overrun suits his driving style,
take that away and Webber gets right back into
the mix in a similar car.

Poliitics in F1 being what it is though, and
its all back as they were for Germany!!

I believe that Ferrari know that this year, both Championships
are gone, so by having the politics now and having
a good idea of what next years 'changed' Regs
will bring they can start to make their investment
in Alonso start to pay off commercially.

Sorry, back on thread, have a Guy in Germany who
is going to scan the CSL ECU and see what its got.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[alexk]

Danny, did you find out anything about this ?

[The Gorilla]

Hi Alex,

At the moment, no.

They are busy Writting Stuff for
some V10 DME's, and then have to do a
some MS S65 DME's.

So I'm not exactly a priority.

Once I have something, I will
pass it on.

Regards,

The Gorilla.