Better CUP wear...

[shimmy]

Its taken me a few years to get used to and control tyre wear on the CSL.

The obvious managing tyre pressure by not letting it get too high or low is the best starting point, then making sure you are running optimum geometry to get grip but also to shag the tyres early.

My purchase of 18 x 9.5J inch rims in 2010 was a final attempt to get better grip but also run a square set up in a wheel size where you have a choice of road legal and non legal Tyres.

In 2010 i did only 8 trackdays inc some wet ones and used a full set of 18 inch 265/35 Cups and this year i have done 3 heavy trackdays at Spa and Snetterton and this is the wear.

FRONT 3.5-4.0mm
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp97/shimmylasco/CSL/77df2f18.jpg

REAR 3.0mm
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp97/shimmylasco/CSL/b3e2e77f.jpg

Wear is pretty even although I think in principal I am more aggressive now on my car and Tyres.

Time is right to swap front and rear now and use he good edges of the rears on the front and decent rubber of the middle of the fronts to the rear:thumbs:

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Shimmy- with your all 'square' set up what
camber and toe do you run front and rear ?
if its not a ''Shimmy Racing'' seceret please ?

Its just that your fronts appear very even for
say a 3.5 neg camber up front with 20secs or
more toe out front and in at the rear?

Just interested as I think the E46 handles
better if its an all square set up with a little
more overall track width up front.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[AlexGTT]

That's awesome tyre wear Shim. Have to report much the same on my current square set-up. I've had similar wear from one set that was already part worn and have done one Ring trip, one Spa TD, one Donny TD and one Snett TD plus all road miles inbetween.

I don't produce the laps times Shim does and I'm on 19" std all round but geo's and tyre management approach is similar.

[shane@mbtech]

Hi,

Shimmy- with your all 'square' set up what
camber and toe do you run front and rear ?
if its not a ''Shimmy Racing'' seceret please ?

Its just that your fronts appear very even for
say a 3.5 neg camber up front with 20secs or
more toe out front and in at the rear?

Just interested as I think the E46 handles
better if its an all square set up with a little
more overall track width up front.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

I ran square set up, same as shims. And my tyre wear was perfectly even like his.
-3.5* camber. Approx 15-20 secs out front toe.
-2.5 ish rear camber 15 secs in toe

Hammered on track and for long periods too, perfect even wear front and rear and yes the wider track front does make a difference, front end grip drastically improved.

I wasn't running cups though, I was on a048,s.

[northernjim]

what caster do you have on the front of these cars by the way?

I ran square set up, same as shims. And my tyre wear was perfectly even like his.
-3.5* camber. Approx 15-20 secs out front toe.
-2.5 ish rear camber 15 secs in toe

Hammered on track and for long periods too, perfect even wear front and rear and yes the wider track front does make a difference, front end grip drastically improved.
.


so driving sideways gives you even wear does it:smokin::beer:

[shane@mbtech]

what caster do you have on the front of these cars by the way?




so driving sideways gives you even wear does it:smokin::beer:

Exhibition laps don't count:smokin:

But yes even after they oulton park session tyre wear was still perfect;)

[magnust]

Front camber 3,2 with swapped left-right top mounts doesn't work well with stock max 1,5 camber in the back. I know after a (fun and quite a bit sideways) 240 km track day last Sunday on Mantorp Park. Need more camber in the back before next track day...

[shimmy]

My current set up is -2.75 front camber, 1mm toe out front, and -1.25 rear camber,

It mainly was set like this as I wanted to run road at less than -2.00 to avoid tyre wear on the inside.. Looking at my tyre wear I guess. Could run more front camber on road and track. I will try -3.25 front and maybe -1.50 rear although pyro tests at Snett showed that at -1.25 rear camber I was getting perfect spread of hrs temps so this is probably fine as it is.

At the end of the day I don't think you should worry to much about max corner road holding by maxing camber as it just gets your Tyres unevenly temps across the tread and then will be loosing you grip, not gaining it. They aren't slicks!

[Rutkowski]

What's aquaplaning like with a square set up, shimmy?

Thanks for the info on tyres. :thumbs:

[shimmy]

What's aquaplaning like with a square set up, shimmy?

Thanks for the info on tyres. :thumbs:

Depends on your geo, not the square set up. I knock my camber back to -1.75 for road and wet track.

If the camber is not too great on the road braking is improved in the dry and not noticeably any worse in the wet

[azrael]

I thought this would be a thread about cricket :)

[chief]

I ran square set up, same as shims. And my tyre wear was perfectly even like his.
-3.5* camber. Approx 15-20 secs out front toe.
-2.5 ish rear camber 15 secs in toe

Hammered on track and for long periods too, perfect even wear front and rear and yes the wider track front does make a difference, front end grip drastically improved.

I wasn't running cups though, I was on a048,s.
Hi,

Here in Cyprus as far as I know the measuring units for toe are like the following:

0.05" per side,
1.2 mm per side,
0.10° per side,
0°6' per side (that reads 0 degrees, 6 minutes)

The most commonly used in alignment garages here is mm.
Can someone explain what “secs” is as per the earlier post, or at least tell me how to convert it to mm?

Thank you

[O'Neill]

Hi,

Here in Cyprus as far as I know the measuring units for toe are like the following:

0.05" per side,
1.2 mm per side,
0.10° per side,
0°6' per side (that reads 0 degrees, 6 minutes)

The most commonly used in alignment garages here is mm.
Can someone explain what “secs” is as per the earlier post, or at least tell me how to convert it to mm?

Thank you

1mm on a 19" wheel equates roughly to 8 minutes. Sorry 6.5 mins

Seconds, they probably mean minutes, as 60 mins in a degree and 60 secs in a min, an un-noticable amount of adjustment.

Conversions below.

http://members.roadfly.com/kef/Camber_Toe_Math.pdf

[chief]

I believe they probably means mm.
3mm (1/8") toe out, sounds good adjustment for -3.5 camber.

3 mins in a degree, is about 0.5mm. This is not right toe out adjustment for track.

[billyboysm3]

So in theory swapping the fronts with the rears after each TD would also maintain maximum & even tyre tread on all 4 corners at once, if geo is correct.

[DuncanR]

So in theory swapping the fronts with the rears after each TD would also maintain maximum & even tyre tread on all 4 corners at once, if geo is correct.Thats what I do, however, my settings arent as above, they used to be but I found that -3.5 camber up front wore the inside edges tooo much, knocked it back to 3.0 and all is good now.;)

[AlexGTT]

Thats what I do, however, my settings arent as above, they used to be but I found that -3.5 camber up front wore the inside edges tooo much, knocked it back to 3.0 and all is good now.;)

Pah! Who cares about tyre wear when they've got a Cup tyre mountain to get through? :wink:

Hey, are you phoning me then? Chop chop.:wink: :smt090:smt039

[s.mac]

I have had a few set ups and have a few on paper
but if I don't want to have 2 set ups what would the best be for road and track

camber
-2.50 front
-1.00 rear

toe
Front ??
Rear ??

Castor
Front ??
Rear??

[northernjim]

steve you need the top mount in for track at -2.75 front

1.75 for road and forget about the rest of it

[s.mac]

don't tell the race guys that! I've been told it's a happy medium if you change from road to track and it won't be bang on if you change it how we do. I know road setting is nowhere near enough for track, remember the tyre wear at Cadwell :bigcry: and the fooking around to get it right :banghead:
I've been told toe has to be right for both track and road, not a happy medium, so what's the half way house :)

[shimmy]

don't tell the race guys that! I've been told it's a happy medium if you change from road to track and it won't be bang on if you change it how we do. I know road setting is nowhere near enough for track, remember the tyre wear at Cadwell :bigcry: and the fooking around to get it right :banghead:
I've been told toe has to be right for both track and road, not a happy medium, so what's the half way house :)

Don't listen to them Steve. cSL is all about happy medium, road and track. Just drive it faster.:)

[conleth m3]

Thought I'd post up some pics to let folks see.

Running intrax with -3.2 camber front and -2.7 rear (I think:clown:)
Front toe set nearly parallel - just slightly in, not sure of measurement, not had printout of readings from garage since was set up for intrax.

265/35/18 cups on TD 18x9" set at 32psi hot for track work, 34-35 for road miles in between.

Just home from ring/spa trip, tyres were new before. Done 1900mls, comprising 50 laps of spa and 60 on the ring - so about 930 track miles. Good service needed now!

Wear seems very even still about 3mm on average. Should be driving faster :gayfight:

Rear

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff240/CTm400/rear2.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff240/CTm400/rear1.jpg

front

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff240/CTm400/front3.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff240/CTm400/front2.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff240/CTm400/front1.jpg

[shimmy]

Thought I'd post up some pics to let folks see.

Running intrax with -3.2 camber front and -2.7 rear (I think:clown:)
Front toe set nearly parallel - just slightly in, not sure of measurement, not had printout of readings from garage since was set up for intrax.

265/35/18 cups on TD 18x9" set at 32psi hot for track work, 34-35 for road miles in between.

Just home from ring/spa trip, tyres were new before. Done 1900mls, comprising 50 laps of spa and 60 on the ring - so about 930 track miles. Good service needed now!

Wear seems very even still about 3mm on average. Should be driving faster :gayfight:

Rear

I'd guess at camber being too aggressive for road and ring, even some tracks like Spa as you want speed and braking as well as cornering. Have you checked the inner edges yet?

[conleth m3]

I'd guess at camber being too aggressive for road and ring, even some tracks like Spa as you want speed and braking as well as cornering. Have you checked the inner edges yet?


yep, thought it was maybe abit much when garage set it up, but they know more than i do, but looks pretty even to me, what do you reckon shimmy?

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff240/CTm400/front1.jpg

handles well too

[shimmy]

Wear looks good but if your toe is small then it shouldn't be too bad

Awful lot of camber though so I'd guess the tyre temps are a bit uneven.

Long as it handles though all looks great

[conleth m3]

Yep, feels pretty good. Seems faster than before as well.

Cool, cheers boss.

[shimmy]

Yep, feels pretty good. Seems faster than before as well.

Cool, cheers boss.

I've always wondered what tyre wear and grip would be like ignoring adjustable camber and running say -2.5 front, zero toe with cups road and a track

[magnust]

Had the yearly check of the setup, I chose these settings:

Front camber -3,2
Front toe total 0,8 mm OUT

Rear camber -2,5
Rear toe total 1,2 mm IN

Very good on street. Yet to go on track. I don't change the settings between track and road. Hopefully to track it today (but it's still zero degrees outside and I'm on cups... hope the sun will raise today's temps, we'll see)

[O'Neill]

I've always wondered what tyre wear and grip would be like ignoring adjustable camber and running say -2.5 front, zero toe with cups road and a track

http://www.northloop.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/wave.gif

[shimmy]

http://www.northloop.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/wave.gif

thats answered my question, its obviously alot slower :hahaha:

[O'Neill]

:birdman:, It's at Simpson now being set up properly;)

[shimmy]

:birdman:, It's at Simpson now being set up properly;)

ive just left a message with them not to waste too much time on it!

[O'Neill]

ive just left a message with them not to waste too much time on it!

Like that is it:hahaha: Don't ask me for any tips at Spa:wink:

[shimmy]

Like that is it:hahaha: Don't ask me for any tips at Spa:wink:

I've just told them you like lots of toe in front and back

[billyboysm3]

ive just left a message with them not to waste too much time on it!

:thumbs:

[breeze]

What's the view on standard CSL suspension and adjustable top mounts when running Cups?

I have a set of 4 18" rears and I like the thought of replacing the R888s that are fitted with Cups, but not if I am going to trash them...

[shimmy]

What's the view on standard CSL suspension and adjustable top mounts when running Cups?

I have a set of 4 18" rears and I like the thought of replacing the R888s that are fitted with Cups, but not if I am going to trash them...

I just found it incredibly hard to maintain the outside or inside edges on the front when running OeM suspension on track.

That was a few years ago so set up may have played a part but gut feel was that too much body roll was a factor

[shane@mbtech]

I just found it incredibly hard to maintain the outside or inside edges on the front when running OeM suspension on track.

That was a few years ago so set up may have played a part but gut feel was that too much body roll was a factor

Agree. I found the stock suspension on sticky rubber on race track more of hindrence than the stock brakes were.

[breeze]

So top mounts aren't worth the £3/400 outlay? Not convinced I do enough TDs to warrant a kit on the CSL if I'm honest. Last year I had very little time - managed Snett and that was it.

Part of the reason I bought Lawsy's brother's old shed was to do more TDs (it's already done Bedford and Combe) and I've found playing with the settings on that to be actually quite handy - that's only a Gaz Gold setup.

Hmm...

[glendog74]

So top mounts aren't worth the £3/400 outlay? Not convinced I do enough TDs to warrant a kit on the CSL if I'm honest. Last year I had very little time - managed Snett and that was it.

Part of the reason I bought Lawsy's brother's old shed was to do more TDs (it's already done Bedford and Combe) and I've found playing with the settings on that to be actually quite handy - that's only a Gaz Gold setup.

Hmm...

I'm pretty sure they're saying that top mounts are very worthwhile... I certainly found them a great mod - without having to go to the expense of changing the whole suspension at the time.

[shimmy]

I'm pretty sure they're saying that top mounts are very worthwhile... I certainly found them a great mod - without having to go to the expense of changing the whole suspension at the time.

Agree.

Top mounts give you a chance to vary camber to save the tyres and equalise tyre temps and pressure, but they are not maracle makers by solving the soft suspension.

If doing a few trackdays get the top mounts. If doing lots then get the suspension ASAP. I reckon in my first 20 trackdays I could have saved enough from tyre wear to pay for the Intrax.

[breeze]

Mounts arrived from Simpson last week.

Quite looking forward to seeing what the difference is (and being able to run less aggressive settings for the road)...