alpha-n and fuel trimming

[EVANGELOS]

Hello ,

I own a normal M3 E46 with an MK airbox and an alpha-n reprogramming on the stock ECU.

Although my car is running very nice , I have been checking through the GT1 module the adaptation values and I have discovered that the dme is making NO compensation what so ever on the injection time (both additive and multiplicative adaptation values are ZERO).

I think that the MK alpha-n programming has "locked out" the fuel adaptation routines ...

my question for all the csl owners is whether this applies to the STANDARD alpha-n programming of the csl , or not ???

I mean does the csl make fuel adaptions (have you ever checked) or not ???

thanks

[alexk]

Welcome to the register Vaggeli.

As I told you I don't know (haven't checked) but I can check with my GT1.
Possibly NZ_M3 knows already...

So if no one knows, I could plug it in this Sunday and check it for you.

Cheers

[EVANGELOS]

thanks Alexi !!! ... by the way do you happen to have the dme module for the csl as in comparison for the one for the M3 http://www.unofficialbmw.com/images/m3engineelectronic1.pdf

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

CSL does not run Alpha N as your now using.

Load via the TPS which is then compensated via B/P.

This should help.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-802962.html

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[EVANGELOS]

Hi,

CSL does not run Alpha N as your now using.

Load via the TPS which is then compensated via B/P.

This should help.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-802962.html

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Well ok ... when we say "alpha-n" on the M3 E46 we mean the same thing as with the csl ... of course there is a map reading etc etc

as a matter of fact all Ms S54 (on the regular M3's) have an "alpha-n" mode that is triggered when the dme goes on safe mode or when the maf mall-functions or is removed !!!

all the after market programmers base their "alpha-n" software for the M3 E46 on that oem routine ...

on my car the dme bypasses the maf (which is physically removed) and the engine is constantly working on that maf-less software

Other aftermarket maff-less software (since u seem to disagree with the use of the term "alpha-n") that we have checked ALSO remove the fuel trimming routine ... e.g the AA software ...

On the other hand the "evolve" maf-less re-programming ,for instance, seems to be doing fuel adaptations

So my question is pretty simple ... does the csl retain the fuel adaptation routine as the normal M3 or not

So as to be perfectly clear I post a jpeg from the official MS S54 module for the M3 E46 where the fuel adaptation (additive and multiplicative) is depicted.

In my car both adaptations are permanently set to zero

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Evangelos- Not sure I follow what your aim is ?

You say that it ''seems'' that Evolve are
using the MSS54 ECU for fuel adaptions ?

Either they are or are not ?

My understanding is that in the Evolve 'N' Map
they also alter and optimise the Vanos settings
and also alter the throttle settings so that on the E.gas
100% throttle opening is acheived at
the Butterflies. [throttle Pedal Peton /Fly by Wire]

I find this a little strange as Butterfly TB's
will deliver 100% of their capcity at something
like 95/97% opening.

Which I believe is the setting on the S54 from the factory
with E.gas.

You also say yours are ''locked out'' but
that your Car is running ''really well''.

So why do you want to re-configure something that
is as you have said, running really well ?

Your then asking if the CSL MSS54 is
making fuel adaptions but state that you do not
have a CSL ECU ?

My understanding is that the facility exits in the
MSS54 ECU and is working in part on the CSL.

This is why the S54 M3 goes to N/A [MAF] and the CSL
does not, the Emissions.

Fuel adapation of a sort is also made on limp mode
as the ECU is already working via load and pressure
so can not revert to it, as with a MAF car.

This all has something to do with the pan Euro Emission tests
that the S54/CSL S54 had to pass as the Engine Emissions are not
the same for both engines.

So what am I missing here please ?

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[NZ_M3]

I mean does the csl make fuel adaptions (have you ever checked) or not ???

Sorry took me a while to get photographic proof to answer this question.

There are many interpretations of what Alpha-N is. Personally I consider the CSL to be a quasi-Alpha-N setup (or as I would call it, Smart Alpha N :hahaha::hahaha: - because really, Alpha N on its own isn't really very smart at all is it haha).

As for your question - easy answer - yes the CSL does make fuel adaption (trimming) in both additive and multiplicative: see photo below for proof (from my CSL). Hope this helps:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n319/M3_Power/11.jpg


And proof that the CSL is MAP based Alpha N:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n319/M3_Power/7.jpg

[TANKSLAPPER]

Cheers lads:thumbs:

It's so much clearer now! :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

T$

[glendog74]

Cheers lads:thumbs:

It's so much clearer now! :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

T$

+1 :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha:

My head hurts :bigcry:

[shimmy]

Cheers lads:thumbs:

It's so much clearer now! :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

T$

Thicko!

Surely now you know what it is all about!
:whistle:

[EVANGELOS]

Hi,

Evangelos- ...

You also say yours are ''locked out'' but
that your Car is running ''really well''.

So why do you want to re-configure something that
is as you have said, running really well ? ...

Well I don't want to change anything but I was curious whether the csl does fuel trimming or not ...

On the other hand I must confess that I feel a little worried about my dme making NO fuel trimming what so ever ... since this means that IF an injector or anything else on the fuel trail goes wrong there is no fail safe to keep the engine from running too lean ...


Sorry took me a while to get photographic proof to answer this question.

As for your question - easy answer - yes the CSL does make fuel adaption (trimming) in both additive and multiplicative: see photo below for proof (from my CSL). Hope this helps:...

Thanks man ... it is exactly what I asked for ...


Now since we are on the subject ... my opinion is that all "aplha-n" programmers that "bypass" the fuel adaptation routine (e.g AA or mine) do it so as to retain a given a/f ratio without having the ecu messing about ...

the main problem with "regular" M3's and maff-less proframming is that the dme takes into account on the fuel trimming adaption routine both the 02 sensors AND the maf ... so when u take out the maf it is probable that there is going to be a problem if u allow the dme to adapt ...

so they just bypass the fuel trimming ...

not the best of ideas but still u get a steady performance as long as the injectors , fuel pump etc are in perfect working condition

[alexk]

NZ_M3 hit the nail in head again :beer:

[NZ_M3]

Now since we are on the subject ... my opinion is that all "aplha-n" programmers that "bypass" the fuel adaptation routine (e.g AA or mine) do it so as to retain a given a/f ratio without having the ecu messing about ...

the main problem with "regular" M3's and maff-less proframming is that the dme takes into account on the fuel trimming adaption routine both the 02 sensors AND the maf ... so when u take out the maf it is probable that there is going to be a problem if u allow the dme to adapt ...


The knock sensors should theoratically come into play in a lean situation and knock back timing - so personally I wouldn't worry about it too much tbh (unless they've turned that off too? Possible if they are using the limp home map as the main mapping .. which would be stupid actually).

I can sort of understand why they've turned the trimming off - if you don't then over time the car basically 'reverts' back to stock tune, negating any benefits gained from Alpha N - the stock DME is designed that way for longevity.

[EVANGELOS]

The knock sensors should theoratically come into play in a lean situation and knock back timing - so personally I wouldn't worry about it too much tbh (unless they've turned that off too? Possible if they are using the limp home map as the main mapping .. which would be stupid actually)...

The knock sensors are working ... and the dme adapts the ignition timing ... however IF a lean afr occurs I don't think that any adaptation on the timing would change anything !!!

[shane@mbtech]

The knock sensors are working ... and the dme adapts the ignition timing ... however IF a lean afr occurs I don't think that any adaptation on the timing would change anything !!!

~It might change it, but it might be too late.

[DuncanR]

Well I managed to blow an S54 engine up without all that pissing about ! ... :thumbs::hahaha: .... easy when you know how !:whistle:

[Bounce]

Well I managed to blow an S54 engine up without all that pissing about ! ... :thumbs::hahaha: .... easy when you know how !:whistle::hahaha::hahaha:

[EVANGELOS]

Well I managed to blow an S54 engine up without all that pissing about ! ... :thumbs::hahaha: .... easy when you know how !:whistle:

hehehehe ... what happened ????

[DuncanR]

hehehehe ... what happened ????I kept revving it to 8400 !!!:hahaha::smokin:

























Couldnt resist that one !! spun a shell really ... very rare on S54 it would appear, engine was delimited ....even if driver was limited !:whistle:

[shimmy]

I kept revving it to 8400 !!!:hahaha::smokin:

Couldnt resist that one !! spun a shell really ... very rare on S54 it would appear, engine was delimited ....even if driver was limited !:whistle:


Yes very rare.........very.:smokin:

[cantfind1]

I can sort of understand why they've turned the trimming off - if you don't then over time the car basically 'reverts' back to stock tune, negating any benefits gained from Alpha N - the stock DME is designed that way for longevity.

Yep got it in one!

CSL MSS54HP ecu uses a completely different mapping software to the standard MSS54 ecu as well, there are many more maps, most of them not understood! Remapping a CSL is completely different to Remapping a standard M3.

CSL's will have adaptation values. Short and long term.

Normally in "alpha-n" tuned standard M3's the short term adaptive values are turned off, the long term still remain, for the reason stated by NZ_M3.

[Hazy]

Hello ,

I own a normal M3 E46 with an MK airbox and an alpha-n reprogramming on the stock ECU.

Although my car is running very nice , I have been checking through the GT1 module the adaptation values and I have discovered that the dme is making NO compensation what so ever on the injection time (both additive and multiplicative adaptation values are ZERO).

I think that the MK alpha-n programming has "locked out" the fuel adaptation routines ...

my question for all the csl owners is whether this applies to the STANDARD alpha-n programming of the csl , or not ???

I mean does the csl make fuel adaptions (have you ever checked) or not ???

thanks

I find that the Alpha N mapping in the second stage of the fuel parameters can lock out the fuel adaptations of the standard ECU given that the parameters may have been altered to allow for the standard air mass meter to compensate for increased levels of activity in throttle during extended requiremnts of torque in the first instance

[shane@mbtech]

I find that the Alpha N mapping in the second stage of the fuel parameters can lock out the fuel adaptations of the standard ECU given that the parameters may have been altered to allow for the standard air mass meter to compensate for increased levels of activity in throttle during extended requiremnts of torque in the first instance

I read that in a brummie accent and knew it did not come from your brain:hahaha::blalalala:, then re read it and thought it was bullshit, so quite possibly thought up by you! LOL