retrofit brake kit bmw performance

[david]

after looking around the Mtorque forum and the retro fit kit for Bmw E46, I looked around and took contact with one german dealer to got a quote and more informations on that performance brake kit..

the kit BMW® "big brake kit" Referenced: 34 00 0 429 573 is avaibable for all M3 E46 standard, CS/Csl and convertible

the kit includes

2 front caliper 6pots
2 rear caliper 2pots (per opposition)
2 high performance rotors in 345mm x 28mm slotted/drilled
2 high perforance rear rotor 328mm x 20mm
all upgraded racing pads front and rear
and all hardwares, bolts, nuts, brakes lines and extra stufff

the quote (german--> british) price in euro

Kostenvoranschlag Leistungsdatum : 28.08.08

Fahrz.Nr. Modell/Typ Fahrg.-Nr./Erstzul M3 E46

Beide Bremssättel vorn aus- und einbauen/ersetzen 54,45
Beide Bremssättel hinten aus- und einbauen/ersetzen 42,35
Bremsscheiben vorn und hinten ersetzen 127,05
3400550 Bremssystem mit DSC entlüften 54,45

SPORTBREMSE COMPETITION 1800,00

83130006606 BREMSFLÜSSIG: 9,00
Zwischensumme: 2087,30
Gesamt Lohn EUR: 278,30
Gesamt Teile EUR: 1809,00
19,00% MwSt von 2087,30 = 396,59 Gesamt Steuer EUR 396,59
Endsumme EUR: 2483,89

translation

hand/job cost:

caliper replacement front: 54,45
caliper replacement rear: 42,35
rotor replacement: 127,05
brake fluide change over: 54,45
bmw performance brake: 1800,00
VAT: 278,30

Total cost installed 2483,89--> that's 2,001.64£

you have option on the color of the caliper 4 color available

and that's what you get ruffly:

http://i52.servimg.com/u/f52/11/72/83/81/retro_10.jpg

http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp327/steepy_photos/Photo%20M3/Freins/BMWperformance0.jpg

http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp327/steepy_photos/Photo%20M3/Freins/BMWperformance.jpg

http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp327/steepy_photos/Photo%20M3/Freins/BMWperformance2.jpg

http://i424.photobucket.com/albums/pp327/steepy_photos/Photo%20M3/Freins/BMWperformance1.jpg

look's pretty good and price is rather interresting.

what do you think..?

[M3CSLIRL]

2000 Sterling?? They look great and might be warranty covered being BMW parts! Well impressed! :thumbs:

[Andyk]

They do look good...wonder how they compare with the AP kit as price is pretty close.

[david]

yes andy, but for 2000£ you get front and rear installed@ Bmw dealer with Bmw warranty and TüV certificat and it's certified Bmw/german quality parts. AP are great, nothing to say, but you only get the front set for around 2200£


Bmw take a big deal on these brakes, they are options under an other reference for the 335i and the 135i and theses 2 cars are near the performances of E46 M3 for the 335i and E92 M3 for the 135i..

On of my friend is taking an option on a set shortly, will forward his feedback when installed on his M3 E46

[Andyk]

Yep just read it fully....sounds good for front and rear. Will look forward to the report.

[rs32]

what a coincendence - have just been discussing this with a main dealer today.

no doubt they will seriously improve the braking behaviour.

although saying that, upgrading the hoses/fluid/pads gives you 50% of the improvement for 20% of the cost.

[Andyk]

although saying that, upgrading the hoses/fluid/pads gives you 50% of the improvement for 20% of the cost.

RS32, was thinking of taking this route first before spending loads of dosh on discs to see how I get on. Would is the best pad upgrade for mainly road use..any advice?

[csljoe]

I would deffinately be interested in having a set of these fitted, i was going to go for a set of AP's early next year, but i may now go for these, especially if you get the warranty etc.

Joe

[rs32]

RS32, was thinking of taking this route first before spending loads of dosh on discs to see how I get on. Would is the best pad upgrade for mainly road use..any advice?

On my previous M3 I went for Pagid Blue pads with the goodridge hoses + ATE Blue fluid. However the pads squeal like mad after a while - so for the time ebing on the CSL I have just gone for hoses/fluid.

Will be trying either the Ferrodo DS2500 or Performance Friction pads when my free set from BMW wears out :thumbs:

[Andyk]

Cheers rs32..think I will pop down to Simpson motorsport this week and see what advice they can give.

[Rags]

Can you confirm if this is definitely applicable for the CSL?

Also, the discs are the same size as the standard CSL brakes, presumably the fact that they are 6 pots make a considerable difference?

Thanks

[NZ_M3]

That part number is available .. but it's just a CSL front brake upgrade for the normal M3 ...

The BMW/Brembo 6 pot performance brake isn't available for the E46 series ...

Link to the part here
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=BL92&mospid=47621&btnr=34_1629&hg=34&fg=95&hl=1

[chillo]

so the front calipers are £54, rears £42 each and just bolt straight on as the disc is the same size as standard csl discs?

What sort of pads fit these calipers?

[Rags]

This thread is misleading.

The BMW performance kit is basically the CSL brake set up for an e46 m3, great.

No use to any csl owners.

[chillo]

csl doesnt have 6pot fronts and 2 pots rears tho??

I would have the better calipers if they just bolt on and work with standard size csl discs

[Andyk]

csl doesnt have 6pot fronts and 2 pots rears tho??

I would have the better calipers if they just bolt on and work with standard size csl discs

Agree if they fit I like them to. I though this upgrade was only for 1 series and the new 3 series though as part of the performance range.

[SpineOnABap]

You can fit almost anything, from any manufacturer.

[MaKSiNG]

csl doesnt have 6pot fronts and 2 pots rears tho??

I have to concur with 'chillo'.
The standard CSL brakes are just bigger discs on the front than the stock M3.
The are single piston, fully floating calipers front and rear.

I was running Pagid Blue pads on the front with an otherwise complete standard set up and it was a very good set up.
I have just upgraded to APs front and rear and the difference is massive.

Don't forget the other benefit of getting rid of the standard CSL brakes is to save a whole load of unsprung weight. Anyone who has compared the weight difference between one of the massive AP front calipers and a tiny standard M3 front caliper will know what I mean :wink:

[born2boost]

Hi Guys...

Just want to enquire if anybody has tried fitting these brakes to a CSL?
If so, were there any benefits? Was it a straight fit??

Please let me know as there is a set of these 135i Performance calipers available pretty cheap here....

[Bounce]

Hi Guys...

Just want to enquire if anybody has tried fitting these brakes to a CSL?
If so, were there any benefits? Was it a straight fit??

Please let me know as there is a set of these 135i Performance calipers available pretty cheap here....Its not a straight fit,you need to get some brackets made up.;)

[giraffe]

Its not a straight fit,you need to get some brackets made up.;)
Also the discs are made all the same so the direction of the grooves/holes go oposite way round on each side of the car . Fitted a set on 135i and checked with parts department that only 1 part number listed for discs , dont think BMW thort about that properly .
As Bounce said BMW dont sell mount brackets for E46 .

[Bounce]

Also the discs are made all the same so the direction of the grooves/holes go oposite way round on each side of the car . Fitted a set on 135i and checked with parts department that only 1 part number listed for discs , dont think BMW thort about that properly .
As Bounce said BMW dont sell mount brackets for E46 .I think standard csl discs work ok with them.

[shimmy]

I think standard csl discs work ok with them.

So if no better cooling, it will just be a nice to see mod and no bloody use whatsoever to improve braking

[Bounce]

So if no better cooling, it will just be a nice to see mod and no bloody use whatsoever to improve brakingYes.:hahaha

[born2boost]

Has anybody on the forum actually done the mod? And can give an opinion based on his experience with them?

I'm concerned about the brake bias difference if any when changing to these calipers?

Having brackets made up is not a problem, I know a guy who could make them up for me....

Just don't want to do the mod and then the brakes are worst than the standard stuff ?

[shimmy]

welll they would be any better if no increased cooling thats for sure

[_Nathan_]

Not sure I get that logic SHim - AP kit doesn't come with any extra cooling?

[CraigMillwardCroft]

They look good, but would rather know the brakes would not fad on track days, and AP give you that confidence, they are expensive but you get what you pay for.. :thumbs:

[shimmy]

Not sure I get that logic SHim - AP kit doesn't come with any extra cooling?

oh yes it does

[born2boost]

oh yes it does

In what way does the AP kit feature better cooling?

[GTAStradale]

I am also starting a thought process that this is the way to go. So any advice or experience would be appreciated!

The only thing I know about these brakes - I met a guy on a racetrack last year in Austria who had them fitted on his CSL. It was his first track day with these brakes, but I remember he was not impressed at all. I am trying to get hold of him nowadays to see if he can share some more info with me (e.g. which pads did he have on). I will keep you guys posted...

[shimmy]

In what way does the AP kit feature better cooling?

Bigger discs, better Disc vanes and venting. Otherwise why would the AP not overheat like the BmW OeM.

[_Nathan_]

Better vanes and venting? Based on what matey?

Difference is the calipers rather than the disks in my opinion.

[_Nathan_]

What disks did matt use with his Porsche brakes?

[mattCSLnut]

Better vanes and venting? Based on what matey?

Difference is the calipers rather than the disks in my opinion.
I have to agree :smt045 ...

[mattCSLnut]

What disks did matt use with his Porsche brakes?
... just don't drag me into this battle :gayfight: will Ya ;)

[shimmy]

Better vanes and venting? Based on what matey?

Difference is the calipers rather than the disks in my opinion.

So why do BmW overheat nd AP not overheat in he same circumstances?

[_Nathan_]

What type of fade did you get with the oem setup? Pad or fluid? For me it was fluid, bigger calipers made of different material can dissipate heat better / faster than the oem ones so prevent the fluid boiling, I also suspect that sliding v non sliding means heat is less localised in the opposing piston calipers?

[shimmy]

What type of fade did you get with the oem setup? Pad or fluid? For me it was fluid, bigger calipers made of different material can dissipate heat better / faster than the oem ones so prevent the fluid boiling, I also suspect that sliding v non sliding means heat is less localised in the opposing piston calipers?

Surely the heat starts in the disc, and the venting of the disc is bigger and better IMHO so temps will be less, and less transferred to the calliper and fluid. With OeM I had both lad fade and fluid boiling. Only on very rare cases I have had a soft pedal with AP set up

[_Nathan_]

The csl disks are vented though, what makes you say the AP venting is better? the ap disks have 6mm bigger radius from memory which as a percentage isn't huge.

No proof to back it up but I strongly suspect that ap calipers on CSL disks would be fine.

On the pad fade thing, I wonder how much of that is the smaller oem pad having less heat capacity?

Perhaps the PF guy can add something here?

[alexk]

The csl disks are vented though, what makes you say the AP venting is better? the ap disks have 6mm bigger radius from memory which as a percentage isn't huge.

No proof to back it up but I strongly suspect that ap calipers on CSL disks would be fine.

On the pad fade thing, I wonder how much of that is the smaller oem pad having less heat capacity?

Perhaps the PF guy can add something here?

The AP discs are also 4mm thicker (32 vs. 28) so the vents are 'bigger'.
Plus, the more metal you have, the more heat capacity you have.
I think the discs are making a difference, but I agree that the big difference comes from the calipers.

[shimmy]

The csl disks are vented though, what makes you say the AP venting is better? the ap disks have 6mm bigger radius from memory which as a percentage isn't huge.

?

6% at the outside edge so increase in vanes is pi r sq so disproportionate to the original area, shape of venting seems more directional to me at first glance, like it drags air in and are arced(not sure if inside M discs are similar but they dont look it)

im guessing that to decreaseheat build up, stopping it in the disc by increased area/mass and improved venting is much more efficient than trying to disipate it out of callipers once heat already there, but thats as you say just my guess.

All that and 4mm wider vanes



Where is FUchs when you need the old Swede!

[_Nathan_]

Is the friction surface of the AP disks thicker or just a bigger gap in between the 2 surfaces?

Will have a look at a CSL disk at some point as I'm just going on memory but pretty sure they also have directional vanes to suck air in at the centre and expel it at the outer edge.

My brother in law did his engineering uni thesis on performance braking systems and used one of my old CSL disks as part of it, will call him later :thumbs:

[shimmy]

My brother in law did his engineering uni thesis on performance braking systems and used one of my old CSL disks as part of it, will call him later :thumbs:


Calling in the big boys now..........:hahaha:

I'll want to see his credentials :clown:

[_Nathan_]

Another attempt to recruit in to your man train?

He studied at Cranfield and got a good degree from there, currently working in aerospace, he is cleverer than us ;)

[northernjim]

The AP discs are also 4mm thicker (32 vs. 28) so the vents are 'bigger'.
Plus, the more metal you have, the more heat capacity you have.
I think the discs are making a difference, but I agree that the big difference comes from the calipers.

to slow a car down you create heat.....


it is how you deal with the heat that is created that ensures a fade free confidence inspiring performance from your brakes.


The AP kit is the sum of its parts - IMO ( I am no expert in anything apart from girls boobs tbh:notworthy:)

bigger discs - bigger thermal mass - (maintaining an operating temp is also vital for safe and prolonged life) centrifugal effect vanes to expel air through the disc

thicker pads to insulate pistons from the working surface ( there is a reason why race pads are 32mm thick { and teams discard them when they are less than half worn})

aluminium caliper for better dispersion of heat

higher rated fluid to withstand prolonged temps.



Everytime I ring questmead asking what the latest and best pad is they keep asking - "got any cooling yet jim...":smt102

[DuncanR]

With OeM I had both lad fade and fluid boiling. Only on very rare cases I have had a soft pedal with AP set upYou just cant stay off the subject can you ? did you tire the little bugger out then ? :gayfight:

[mattCSLnut]

Will have a look at a CSL disk at some point as I'm just going on memory but pretty sure they also have directional vanes to suck air in at the centre and expel it at the outer edge.


Here's a pic of a brand new CSL disc so you don't have to ramage through your garage looking for one ;)

[_Nathan_]

Spoke to him, far more complex than my brain can cope with, single piston calipers causing thermo-elastic instability through hot spots, vane design not just being about cooling but also anti coning, csl disk being good as radial expansion is dealt with by the semi floating design which promotes even heat distribution compared to disks that might cone under expansion, bigger pad area and more pistons spread over wider area better at preventing heat from getting in to calipers and ultimately fluid, 99% of heat goes in to disk, larger heat capacity just means it takes longer to reach same temp. All in very complicated so I just asked him in terms of resisting fluid fade only what he would rather have:

A) csl disks and ap calipers
B) ap disks and csl calipers

He said a.

No idea what that means in the context of this thread though :thumbs:

[grumps]

Having used the porsche set up the same as matt i didn't get any fading at llandow!this was using rs29's i have now fitted an ap kit and its much better than the porsche set up and still no fade:)

[magnust]

I drove a M3 E46 last year on track with these BMW performance calipers plus CSL disks. The pads that came with the kit (EBC Redstuff) went from brand new and bedded in to.... well nothing, on only one track meet. Actually, the pads didn't look worn down, they looked like they'd melted!!! Not impressed. My guess is that the calipers could work fine if you could get decent pads like PFC08. What I've heard though, which might be wrong, is that it's hard to get good pads due to an unusual size/layout of the pads in these calipers. But this last bit might be an internet rumour so if you're interested in this setup do some proper googling.

I would never buy this kit though! On my CSL I just run cooling hoses and good pads ( PFC08 ) plus high performance brake fluid, that's all. That solved all overheating and high-wear issues on track. And PFC08 is the first PFC pad I've used that works pretty good on the street.

But if you still want a BBK there are other better ones to choose from than the BMW performance kit. IMHO.

[born2boost]

I drove a M3 E46 last year on track with these BMW performance calipers plus CSL disks. The pads that came with the kit (EBC Redstuff) went from brand new and bedded in to.... well nothing, on only one track meet. Actually, the pads didn't look worn down, they looked like they'd melted!!! Not impressed. My guess is that the calipers could work fine if you could get decent pads like PFC08. What I've heard though, which might be wrong, is that it's hard to get good pads due to an unusual size/layout of the pads in these calipers. But this last bit might be an internet rumour so if you're interested in this setup do some proper googling.

I would never buy this kit though! On my CSL I just run cooling hoses and good pads ( PFC08 ) plus high performance brake fluid, that's all. That solved all overheating and high-wear issues on track. And PFC08 is the first PFC pad I've used that works pretty good on the street.

But if you still want a BBK there are other better ones to choose from than the BMW performance kit. IMHO.

I've heard nothing good about the entire EBC range of pads for the track....every single person I've spoken to who's used them says they're crap.

Was there any unusual pedal feel while driving that car? Did it have both front and rear calipers fitted? Just wondering if the brake bias changed much by changing the calipers...?

I use PF pads on my E36 M3 Race car with stock calipers, decent brake ducts, braided lines and AP 660 Fluid....and this setup works great for continuous hammering of the brakes on the circuit....

[alexk]

I drove a M3 E46 last year on track with these BMW performance calipers plus CSL disks. The pads that came with the kit (EBC Redstuff) went from brand new and bedded in to.... well nothing, on only one track meet. Actually, the pads didn't look worn down, they looked like they'd melted!!! Not impressed. My guess is that the calipers could work fine if you could get decent pads like PFC08. What I've heard though, which might be wrong, is that it's hard to get good pads due to an unusual size/layout of the pads in these calipers. But this last bit might be an internet rumour so if you're interested in this setup do some proper googling.

I would never buy this kit though! On my CSL I just run cooling hoses and good pads ( PFC08 ) plus high performance brake fluid, that's all. That solved all overheating and high-wear issues on track. And PFC08 is the first PFC pad I've used that works pretty good on the street.

But if you still want a BBK there are other better ones to choose from than the BMW performance kit. IMHO.

Pagid has created pads for the BMW-Brembo calipers :thumbs:

[magnust]

I've heard nothing good about the entire EBC range of pads for the track....every single person I've spoken to who's used them says they're crap.

Was there any unusual pedal feel while driving that car? Did it have both front and rear calipers fitted? Just wondering if the brake bias changed much by changing the calipers...?

I use PF pads on my E36 M3 Race car with stock calipers, decent brake ducts, braided lines and AP 660 Fluid....and this setup works great for continuous hammering of the brakes on the circuit....

I know of endless testimonies here in Sweden of epic fails with EBC pads on track. So it was totally expected they would fail on my friends car that had this kit on it. But amazingly enough I know a few (very few...) endurance racing teams running successfully on EBC pads. But then, light cars and narrow tires (class regulations).

The car only had the front kits on it. Pedal feel, well, nothing to write home about IMHO. But with the pads totally out of their depth and on the verge on total meltdown the pedal feel was probably more about the pads getting mushy than anything else. So can't say how the calipers could feel with good pads.

And then braking balance, that also has a lot to do with your choice of pads back and front. So not much use to know how this particular setup behaved IMHO. The whole car was pretty tail happy in it's setup but no nervousness during braking (which also is a question of toe...). All in all I don't think getting good braking balance would be a problem after trying different rear pads to fine tune it.

Great news that Pagid are making pads for the calipers! Pagid really do make good pads. (But not as abuse resistant as PFC in real high temp scenarios IMO)

[Clubber]

Thread resurrection.

I found a company in Germany who sell this BMW Performance upgrade for the CSL. They made their own adapter for E46 M3 and th whole setup sells for a reasonable price compared to AP's, Brembo's etc.

Many people are happy with this upgrade but this thread made me think twice. Has anyone have this setup or has any experience with it ?

[J2LTB]

A friend with a e46 m3 bought the cutters group buy PBMW calipers and Csl discs . Hes very impressed with them. Fitment was good. He's not been on track as yet with them though.

[Neil M]

I Run Hel (German) hoses, AP 600 fluid and RS29 pads on OEM calipers, a bit of squeal from the pads when they're cold, but wakes up pedestrians first thing in the morning :-D

[sydown]

I have been running the BMW Performance caliper on my CSL with RS-29's. The whole setup, fitting kit, calipers, motul RB600 and pads came in at approx £1050. Compared to the standard setup they are miles better, there is a very slight increase in pedal travel but bags of feel. However they are quite heavy when compared to a AP caliper.

30 minute sessions at Donnington didn't cause the setup any issues and the brakes felt as good at the end as at the beginning!!

I did run EBC yellowstuff in the back and melted them in 1 track day, at £60 for rear pads they really are false economy.

So for a budget brake upgrade I can definitely recommend the BMW Performance setup.

[sydown]

If anyone is interested using the BMW Performance caliper on the front and the standard CSL caliper on the rear changes the brake bias from:

Standard CSL calipers: Front 63.89 - Rear 36.11 (1.769:1)

to

BMW P front std CSL rear: Front 60.41 - Rear 39.59 (1.525:1)

It does mean the rears work slightly harder than before but still feels perfectly balanced.

[Clubber]

Thank you all for the feedback. It is nice to hear some positive comments about this kit. It looks like this will be my choice of BBK. Besides, If I want to upgrade to AP etc. later on, these will be easier to resell for E90-E92-E82 compatibility.
What would you guys recommend for rear upgrade ? Steel hose and some good pads enough ?

[Das Chin]

i would take a look at the alcon kit that lawsy has been talking about in parts for sale.

for 1800 squids that is a lot of kit for the money with the larger disc set up.

[Clubber]

i would take a look at the alcon kit that lawsy has been talking about in parts for sale.

for 1800 squids that is a lot of kit for the money with the larger disc set up.

I would love to get an Alcon kit but the exchange rate is killing us over here. I can get the performance upgrade less than half of that price since I can use my oem discs too.
But if this upgrade won't cut it. I'll definitely get alcon's or ap's in the future.

[sydown]

Thank you all for the feedback. It is nice to hear some positive comments about this kit. It looks like this will be my choice of BBK. Besides, If I want to upgrade to AP etc. later on, these will be easier to resell for E90-E92-E82 compatibility.
What would you guys recommend for rear upgrade ? Steel hose and some good pads enough ?

Stainless lines and rs-29's on the back are fine with the bmw performance caliper and rs-29's on the front!

[shane@mbtech]

Do it properly. Do it once.

[sydown]

Has anybody on the forum actually done the mod? And can give an opinion based on his experience with them?

I'm concerned about the brake bias difference if any when changing to these calipers?

Having brackets made up is not a problem, I know a guy who could make them up for me....

Just don't want to do the mod and then the brakes are worst than the standard stuff ?


Yes, I have it on my CSL with RS-29's, used on track and road and 40 minute sessions don't cause any issues at all with the Brembo caliper!!
Yes the AP's will be better but they are over twice the price, if you just want a sensible upgrade that works well for road and occasional track work buy the BMW Performance calipers with RS-29's. It's unfair to say the brakes are rubbish if the person in question is using sh*t pads!!
As for brake bias as long as you are using the same pads front and back it moves the bias rewards slightly. See earlier post for exact bias.

[sydown]

LOL, looks like I had all ready replied to this post........ what a half wit I am!:-D

[alexk]

It looks like I will have to install the BMW performance brakes soon.

AP racing kit for sale soon...:bigcry:

[Stumpy]

Where's best to get this BMW performance caliper pair from them?
I've jus seen the Cutters thread so there's a possibility getting them from there with the 'oh so special' brackets.

Do they only come in gold/yellow though??

[alexk]

hi

The caliper is the same with the BMW 135i black (with BMW stickers) one.
So you can either go for the yellow-gold or the black one

[Stumpy]

hi

The caliper is the same with the BMW 135i black (with BMW stickers) one.
So you can either go for the yellow-gold or the black one


Thanks

Will do a search for the part nr.
So purchase from BMW or a n other?

[J2LTB]

The group buy on cutters used BMW calipers bought in mass from a dealer. A mate was part of it. He had his calipers painted blue to match his car. Brembo decals fitted then lacquered . They look and work well. He's using std BMW pads so far with Csl discs and yes the fancy brackets.