Real world difference between an M3 and a CSL...

[funtime]

Evening all, I wonder if you could share your opinions and experiences with me.

I have an M3 SMG at the moment and have been hankering after a CSL for the last year. I haven't yet driven a CSL, nor come across one on track to make the comparison so here's where you lucky CSL owners come in.

Looks aside (as I don't want to make mine look like something it's not) what would you say would be the difference between the car's below round a track like Silverstone, and the ring?

A) M3 SMG with a few choice mod's - Ap's all round, Intrax coilovers, limiter kit, remap and the all important 18's

B)Standard CSL

C)CSL with the same modifications as A)

The CSL is roughly £15k ontop of my M3 and whilst it's also going to hold it's money better and is no doubt the better car all round, I'm just trying to establish how much difference there actually is in the real world when compared to an M3 with £4-5k's worth of proper modifications...

Munich Legends are currently looking for a CSL for me so as soon as they find a nice one i'll have the chance to experience the difference but until then i'm just weighing up the options.

Thanks, James

[monkeycsl]

The csl will make you feel like a god at silverstone taking the trickiest corner at about 2 mph faster than your tin top m3,:thumbs:Oh and the brakes are slightly larger so disipitate heat slightly better,and they hate getting dirty the car i mean.

[shimmy]

The CSL feels very different and comparing stock for stock they work very differently on track BUT if you are prepared to modify your M3 you can improve it quite alot more than we can improve the CSL making them much closer in performance BUT not many will add the all important airbox, cams or suspension components that make it work so well.

The sound is hard to replicate for sure.

[funtime]

The csl will make you feel like a god at silverstone taking the trickiest corner at about 2 mph faster than your tin top m3,:thumbs:Oh and the brakes are slightly larger so disipitate heat slightly better,and they hate getting dirty the car i mean.

:hahaha: I wondered if you would surface, that's where your wrong though - you should treat yours like a filthy whore when it comes out the garage. Polish is for girls :gayfight: 2mph around the whole track would be a reasonable difference though :)

The CSL feels very different and comparing stock for stock they work very differently on track BUT if you are prepared to modify your M3 you can improve it quite alot more than we can improve the CSL making them much closer in performance BUT not many will add the all important airbox, cams or suspension components that make it work so well.

The sound is hard to replicate for sure.

Yes that's what I was thinking, I can close the gap as such. I know you say replicate but I don't want to achieve the sound as I know I can't, I just want to see how close I can come to the real world performance round a track as the CSL. However I don't want to spend anywhere near the difference between the two cars getting there. Hence the small list of proper modifications.

Keep them coming :)

[monkeycsl]

You proved your m3 was quicker than a 500 hp m5 with worn tyres and mega slippery track, I think buy csl for great looks rarity value nice carbon bits sound of course the sound is what keeps me hooked the nice duck tail spoiler feels nice when polishing:gayfight: the thin glass back window special suspension changes spring and damper rates set perfectly for the ring the whole package really, it wont be night and day difference to yours but believe me you wont regret it just keep it clean to treat it mean.:thumbs:

[The Animal]

An M3 remaped alpha n and gearbox software, air box with properly sorted Intrax and sticky rubber with a light exhaust system will be quicker then a standard csl

[s.mac]

I've had both the M3 smg and the csl. I dont think you can compare them. Yes you can mod the M3, as I did, but the driving experience is totally different. They handle differently, sound differently they are so different. Until you actually drive one you wont understand or believe the difference. I DIDN'T :)

[monkeycsl]

How come alpha mapping, airbox csl has cup tyres csl has sorted suspension csl has csl is lighter has uprated cams ect you would need to do more to make standard m3 quicker me thinks.:smokin:

[s.mac]

An M3 remaped alpha n and gearbox software, air box with properly sorted Intrax and sticky rubber with a light exhaust system will be quicker then a standard csl


this is soooo dependant on the driver IMHO

[monkeycsl]

this is soooo dependant on the driver IMHO
Very true :supz:

[The Animal]

we wernt talking about the driver we were talking about the car properly set up intrax will generate way more mechanical grip then a CSL. The chassis is identical so are all the pick up points if you spend 6K wisely on an M3 it will be quicker then a csl
drop the weight out seats etc as well. roll bars suspension and some other stuff job done.

[Steviebee]

Just my 2p's worth and not a dig at M3 owners in anyway...

I would push a 10k M3 with 4-5ks worth of mods MUCH harder than a 25 - 28k CSL round a track. Its not just the value - its getting another good CSL! You would have to spend days traveling all over, where as an M3 can be sourced much easier.

I was on KH at the same time as a lad in a 8k M3 with rock solid suspension and slicks and I could get no where near!!

It was my first time out in the car, but he was attacking corners like there was no tomorrow!

Oh, an it arrived on a trailer - I was driving home and going to work in it the next day :whistle:

Stevie

[shane@mbtech]

If you are creating a track only car that can drive too and from tracks. Buy an M3

If you want a better road/track car without sacrificial mods, but still be fast, buy a CSL.


Just remember anything you can fit to an M3 can be fitted to an already better base car, a CSL.

You already know the answer to your questions.;)

[funtime]

Just my 2p's worth and not a dig at M3 owners in anyway...

I would push a 10k M3 with 4-5ks worth of mods MUCH harder than a 25 - 28k CSL round a track. Its not just the value - its getting another good CSL! You would have to spend days traveling all over, where as an M3 can be sourced much easier.

I was on KH at the same time as a lad in a 8k M3 with rock solid suspension and slicks and I could get no where near!!

It was my first time out in the car, but he was attacking corners like there was no tomorrow!

Oh, an it arrived on a trailer - I was driving home and going to work in it the next day :whistle:

Stevie

You raise a very good point and of course it's not a dig at M3 owners, however to be honest as soon as I'm on a track the value of my car escapes my mind and always has done. Bottom line is, everyones car is their pride and joy, no matter how much it's worth.

I've never held back on track no matter how much the car has been worth but I totally see your point as a lot of people worry about binning it, I just try and get round as quick as I can.

It sounds by the general comments that more of the focus about the CSL is the feel of the whole car and the capability out of the box as opposed to a standard M3. However, you pay a premium for this, and all I am trying to figure out is if I will get any real benefit round a track from a CSL over my M3 once I've spent some money improving it, besides it feeling more 'special'.

Decisions decisions...

[s.mac]

we wernt talking about the driver we were talking about the car properly set up intrax will generate way more mechanical grip then a CSL. The chassis is identical so are all the pick up points if you spend 6K wisely on an M3 it will be quicker then a csl
drop the weight out seats etc as well. roll bars suspension and some other stuff job done.


I'm not technical enough to agree or disagree

would I go back to an E46 M3 smg and spend 6k on it to see if I could get it running better than a standard CSL and pocket the difference

no

[funtime]

If you are creating a track only car that can drive too and from tracks. Buy an M3

If you want a better road/track car without sacrificial mods, but still be fast, buy a CSL.


Just remember anything you can fit to an M3 can be fitted to an already better base car, a CSL.

You already know the answer to your questions.;)

I think you might have just summed it up perfectly... I don't want to create a track only car, however I do want a car that will be quicker both fast road and on track.

However I wasn't talking about making what I would call any 'sacrificial' mods, suspension, brakes etc - i'd still leave the heated leather in :)

[s.mac]

You raise a very good point and of course it's not a dig at M3 owners, however to be honest as soon as I'm on a track the value of my car escapes my mind and always has done. Bottom line is, everyones car is their pride and joy, no matter how much it's worth.

I've never held back on track no matter how much the car has been worth but I totally see your point as a lot of people worry about binning it, I just try and get round as quick as I can.

It sounds by the general comments that more of the focus about the CSL is the feel of the whole car and the capability out of the box as opposed to a standard M3. However, you pay a premium for this, and all I am trying to figure out is if I will get any real benefit round a track from a CSL over my M3 once I've spent some money improving it, besides it feeling more 'special'.

Decisions decisions...

Track days are a bit of fun in your own car (or someone elses) would I drive my car to the max on a track day, nope.
Would I buy a track only car and race to the max, yes no problem, that's where my 6k would be going :)

[Mark CSL]

I had 2 M3 CSLs then bought the M3 :whistle: M3 was sold after 5 days then Back in a CSL :smt055:thumbs:

The M3 is a great car but feels heavy, If you drive a CSL after the M3 you will love it they are miles apart unless you like heated seats :hahaha:

[Bounce]

I've had both the M3 smg and the csl. I dont think you can compare them. Yes you can mod the M3, as I did, but the driving experience is totally different. They handle differently, sound differently they are so different. Until you actually drive one you wont understand or believe the difference. I DIDN'T :)+1;)

[funtime]

Track days are a bit of fun in your own car (or someone elses) would I drive my car to the max on a track day, nope.
Would I buy a track only car and race to the max, yes no problem, that's where my 6k would be going :)

Yeah see that's the thing, I don't want a track only car as me and my girlfriend use my car when we go anywhere really so a track only car would be as popular as a $hit sandwich with her...

I think I just need to drive a CSL, although I just want to think about my options before I drive one - I dont want the carbon airbox howl blinkers to take hold of me and buy the CSL there and then on impulse! :supz:

[funtime]

It might sound silly, but the thing I would like most is M Track :thumbs:

However I wouldn't buy a CS before you say, as they are not far behind CSL prices and not much better than an M3.

And I dont have big enough balls to drive everywhere with traction off :gayfight:

[glendog74]

I've driven my CSL on track for 3 seasons now and feel that i can hustle it around at a reasonable pace at least.

I still get normal M3's that occasionally pass me at the Ring but such normal M3's have either had extensive modifications (Cup tyres, BBK, re-map, airbox, weight-loss and are often caged) or they're being driven by a very good (or very crazy) driver!

The bottom line is apart from some choice brake modifications (pads, braided lines) the CSL is very, very good in standard form, sounds special, and certainly feels very special, and will stand up better to depreciation over time than a standard M3. If you plan on keeping her for many years - buy a CSL.

I like my CSL :smt055

[shane@mbtech]

Yeah see that's the thing, I don't want a track only car as me and my girlfriend use my car when we go anywhere really so a track only car would be as popular as a $hit sandwich with her...

I think I just need to drive a CSL, although I just want to think about my options before I drive one - I dont want the carbon airbox howl blinkers to take hold of me and buy the CSL there and then on impulse! :supz:

If you are thinking of buying, and test drive one, you will buy one:thumbs:

[need4speed]

I had an M3 CS for a few years before I foolishly moved to the darkside (Datsun GTR); but recovered and bought the CSL. All I can say it (CSL) just feels sharper and more agile than the M3 to me it was night and day! :thumbs:

[glendog74]

If you are thinking of buying, and test drive one, you will buy one:thumbs:

+1 ^^^ :whistle:

[shane@mbtech]

+1 ^^^ :whistle:

I get the itch all over again, every time my mate calls round in my old one:whistle:

[shane@mbtech]

It might sound silly, but the thing I would like most is M Track :thumbs:

However I wouldn't buy a CS before you say, as they are not far behind CSL prices and not much better than an M3.

And I dont have big enough balls to drive everywhere with traction off :gayfight:

If you like M track, then you drive like a pussy, simple. ;)

[Bounce]

I think I just need to drive a CSL, although I just want to think about my options before I drive one - I dont want the carbon airbox howl blinkers to take hold of me and buy the CSL there and then on impulse! :supz:[/quote]I did,:hahaha::hahaha:.

[shimmy]

i met a guy today for the first time, hes not on the forums and loves his BMWs. He has had 2 CSLs and can see himself getting another one as everything else just aint the same.

Sooo many CSL owners talk of the CSL like it was the best car theyve ever owned even when thye have obviously owned far better ones for sure but some how it seems to just to appeal to a certain type.

Id say drive one and find out. Feck the mrs, buy here a Polo with the saving on depreciation if she dont like it.


However i also have troiuble driving my CSL above 90% of its capabilities as i have to drive it home as well.:smokin:

[Steviebee]

Great Thread!

We've sold around 8-10 M3s over the past few years inc my old CS. Nothing prepares your for the sensory bombardment ! They are just awesome things to drive.

They sounds like they are gonna eat you! The turn it is more crisp than any car I've owned this side of my old Evo 8RS on Intermediate too, yet can put the kids in it (with ISOFIX!) and take the family out for a run with not many moans from the Wife.

What a package!

[sailorbaz]

Aye, you need to get a shot of one. I'm sure someone isn't far from you, would be willing to show you just how special the CSL is.

No one's mentioned the steering. My mate has an M3 and everytime is gets a shot of my CSL he comments on A) the seats and driving position before B) the steering and then finally C) the induction ROAR! So different from a standard M3.

Where are you Funtime?

[funtime]

If you like M track, then you drive like a pussy, simple. ;)

:hahaha: a little harsh surly? MonkeyCSL was only yesterday telling me how great M-track was, although this was after he'd finished talking about stroking the duck tail spoiler and installing a glass wall in his living room so he could sit and stroke himself whilst gazing at his CSL :hahaha:

Seriously though, I want M-track as I find the normal DSC to intrusive for normal driving, yet I don't want to turn it off as the one time I don't 'catch the back' and bin it I'd feel uber stupid.

Do you drive with DSC completely off everywhere then Lawsy?

[shimmy]

If you like M track, then you drive like a pussy, simple. ;)


i like M Track:thumbs:

[TANKSLAPPER]

I sold my M3 e46 after 10 months

I have owned CSL's for 7 years and I won't be selling for the next 7

T$

[funtime]

Aye, you need to get a shot of one. I'm sure someone isn't far from you, would be willing to show you just how special the CSL is.

No one's mentioned the steering. My mate has an M3 and everytime is gets a shot of my CSL he comments on A) the seats and driving position before B) the steering and then finally C) the induction ROAR! So different from a standard M3.

Where are you Funtime?

I'm in Crawley unfortunately :hahaha:

Turn in is one of the things the guys at Munich said is so much better than the standard M3 - I know they have a different steering rack, but is alot of the turn in just down to the standard CSL geo settings i.e the negative camber etc?

If you changed the M3 suspension and dialled in the same settings wouldn't this geo and turn-in capability be achievable with very little work?

If anyone is near by that and wouldn't mind having a chat and taking me out in theirs that would be much appreciated though :)

[shimmy]

I sold my M3 e46 after 10 months

I have owned CSL's for 7 years and I won't be selling for the next 7

T$


are they that old really!

[shimmy]

where is Crawley?

I was at M Legends this morning!

I'm in Crawley unfortunately :hahaha:

Turn in is one of the things the guys at Munich said is so much better than the standard M3 - I know they have a different steering rack, but is alot of the turn in just down to the standard CSL geo settings i.e the negative camber etc?

If you changed the M3 suspension and dialled in the same settings wouldn't this geo and turn-in capability be achievable with very little work?

If anyone is near by that and wouldn't mind having a chat and taking me out in theirs that would be much appreciated though :)

[shane@mbtech]

i met a guy today for the first time, hes not on the forums and loves his BMWs. He has had 2 CSLs and can see himself getting another one as everything else just aint the same.

Sooo many CSL owners talk of the CSL like it was the best car theyve ever owned even when thye have obviously owned far better ones for sure but some how it seems to just to appeal to a certain type.

Id say drive one and find out. Feck the mrs, buy here a Polo with the saving on depreciation if she dont like it.


However i also have troiuble driving my CSL above 90% of its capabilities as i have to drive it home as well.:smokin:

That explains everything then Shim, besides you have the MX5 now for 100% attack

:hahaha: a little harsh surly? MonkeyCSL was only yesterday telling me how great M-track was, although this was after he'd finished talking about stroking the duck tail spoiler and installing a glass wall in his living room so he could sit and stroke himself whilst gazing at his CSL :hahaha:

Seriously though, I want M-track as I find the normal DSC to intrusive for normal driving, yet I don't want to turn it off as the one time I don't 'catch the back' and bin it I'd feel uber stupid.

Do you drive with DSC completely off everywhere then Lawsy?

;) Just a joke, but really if you need M track on track then you will not be fast fast IMO.

I did do yes, sadly not a csl owner no more, only time I used M track, was pissing down rain on track and for first few sessions only. Then it was sideways , I really learnt alot about the breakaway points with dsc off, esp in the wet, I then put the lesson learnt to use on dry track, making me faster.

M track will not save a physics defying spin, if you cant catch yourself what M track stops, then yes you will need it.

Some corners a little spin up helps, others not so, but you soon learn which corners they are.

M track is ok, but its a very primative system, compared to ferrari system which can make anyone look like a legend, it is in the ice age.

But if you are slowly learning and new to M3 and rwd then its a good stepping stone.

I was brought up on rwd so I like a bit of arse action, well so the rumours say anyhow;):gayfight:

[TANKSLAPPER]

are they that old really!


Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong ;)

T$

[shimmy]

That explains everything then Shim, besides you have the MX5 now for 100% attack





yer have to drive them feckers at 120%:hahaha:

[shane@mbtech]

I'm in Crawley unfortunately :hahaha:

Turn in is one of the things the guys at Munich said is so much better than the standard M3 - I know they have a different steering rack, but is alot of the turn in just down to the standard CSL geo settings i.e the negative camber etc?

If you changed the M3 suspension and dialled in the same settings wouldn't this geo and turn-in capability be achievable with very little work?

If anyone is near by that and wouldn't mind having a chat and taking me out in theirs that would be much appreciated though :)

The CSL has a quicker rack, so turn in seems sharper, in terms of feel it is far different, in terms of track time, there will only be the odd corner, chicane where you see a difference in time, not much at all.

A standard CSL, feels similar to a modded M3, a modded CSL, feels better still.

NO they are not the quickest or best car out there, but they are very very very good.

[shane@mbtech]

yer have to drive them feckers at 120%:hahaha:

Am I still on for oulton Shimmy,

Ill get me ards booked if so:thumbs:

[funtime]

where is Crawley?

I was at M Legends this morning!

Just the other side of the M23 to East Grinstead :)

That explains everything then Shim, besides you have the MX5 now for 100% attack



;) Just a joke, but really if you need M track on track then you will not be fast fast IMO.

I did do yes, sadly not a csl owner no more, only time I used M track, was pissing down rain on track and for first few sessions only. Then it was sideways , I really learnt alot about the breakaway points with dsc off, esp in the wet, I then put the lesson learnt to use on dry track, making me faster.

M track will not save a physics defying spin, if you cant catch yourself what M track stops, then yes you will need it.

Some corners a little spin up helps, others not so, but you soon learn which corners they are.

M track is ok, but its a very primative system, compared to ferrari system which can make anyone look like a legend, it is in the ice age.

But if you are slowly learning and new to M3 and rwd then its a good stepping stone.

I was brought up on rwd so I like a bit of arse action, well so the rumours say anyhow;):gayfight:

That makes me kick myself in some ways, I did a track day at Silverstone in the wet yesterday and left the DSC on for the whole day as it was flashing everywhere and the track was very very slippery...could have learnt alot from it though I guess!

This is my second RWD car now, and the one before was my e36 M3 with no traction, although I just got used to that, but having a fwd in-between has got me out of the steer from the rear habbits :(


The CSL has a quicker rack, so turn in seems sharper, in terms of feel it is far different, in terms of track time, there will only be the odd corner, chicane where you see a difference in time, not much at all.

A standard CSL, feels similar to a modded M3, a modded CSL, feels better still.

NO they are not the quickest or best car out there, but they are very very very good.

Oh right so it is just the rack then... well the CSL they have coming in soon has KW V3's and AP's all round so it's sounding like it'll be very hard to resist... :whistle:

[toofastforyou]

i remember when the csl was released and so many people sold them back to the dealer cos they couldnt see what all the fuss was about. until of course people realised that comparing the two is like comparing chalk and cheese.

i have been driving the e46 chassis for 10 years. i have owned 5 e46 m3s, 2 at the same time! i had the coupe first, then the vert, and then a csl with the vert.

i tuned both the coupe and the vert with: tein edfc suspension (i know but it was back in the day!), gruppe m ram air and ti exhaust, supersprint x pipe, dms remap, rear differential 3.9:1, rogue pulleys, front and rear ac shnitzer strut braces (vert doesnt fit rear strut brace) and both with 100 shot of nos. the coupe i sold to my cousin so it was always close by. the first csl i got i put tein edfc suspension, gruppe m ti exhaust, supersprint x pipe, front and rear strut brace, rear differential 3.9:1 and dms remap. no nos.

the vert could keep up with the coupe no problem except when taking bends at 120mph+. in fact 0-40mph the vert was the fastest out of all of them as it is heavier and could get the power down better.

the coupe kept up with the csl but not easily, and eventually the csl would lose the coupe. there is a reason why a stock csl is 32secs quicker round the ring than a stock e46 m3 coupe, and only 2 secs slower than the e92 m3 gts (all 3 cars driven by the same driver horst von saurma before any of you start going on about them not being driven by drivers of equal talent).
its not just the steering rack or the extra power or the suspension or the weight loss- its the whole package. all the mods work in perfect harmony to provide the driver with one of the most enthralling, connected driving experiences around.

yes you can tune a coupe to be as fast or even faster than a csl, but do the same to a csl and the tuned coupe wont see which way you went in the csl. the money you will spend to make the coupe equal to a stock csl, you might as well buy a csl. even then it still wont be as good as the csl has been modified by bmw to be very special, if you think you can do a better job with the coupe, by all means try. the saying so close yet so far springs to mind.

[toofastforyou]

and regarding the dsc, always have it switched off. just be careful, respect the car, learn the limits in that way and you will soon master the m3. i had my lambda sensor go and the dash lit up like a christmas tree, i had no abs and zero traction (even when you turn the traction off it is still working ever so slightly)- i didnt fix it for 18 months.

[titan]

I've had two M3s and now a CSL.

Being honest - "real world" difference in terms of A to B on the roads? Nothing really assuming both M3 and CSL have same tyres. On the roads you don't (shouldn't?) be reaching the limits of brakes. The "real world experience" is different though, CSL just sounds more raw which adds to the illusion of speed.

Track? Well, both cars need modifying to make them sustainable on track. I'd argue that if you stripped both cars, same tyres/suspension/brakes then again, going to be fook all in it.

The deciding factor is just working out what you want it for, how much cash you have etc. The CSL is a rare beast on the roads whereas E46 are still very common. If you like the idea of taking good care of a car and having something different, CSL is ace. Although bear in mind that if used as a daily driver you're going to be far more narked if someone dings it in a carpark etc. You also can't get away from the impressive price hike a CSL demands over its equivalent mileage/condition M3.

You mentioned the girlfriend - remember that CSL seats don't adjust and the suspension can seem hard compared to modern armchairs so this may not win any favours.

If you were going to completely strip (ie devalue, or "ruin" to some) a car, do it with an M3. If you want a fast road car that looks the business and is also capable on track, CSL with brakes/suspension will be hard to beat.

Although - I did the Andy Walsh carlimits day yesterday with my brother. On Andy's "circuit" he punted the CSL round in 52 seconds, and my brothers crappy little 1.8 mx5 in 54 seconds. His circuit is essentially doing short blasts between cones and back again, so isn't representative of a track, but is probably similar to blasting between the roundabouts at milton keynes. Makes you think....

Anyhow, sounds like you want a decent ride for the road, either will do that nicely.

[titan]

there is a reason why a stock csl is 32secs quicker round the ring than a stock e46 m3 coupe, and only 2 secs slower than the e92 m3 gts (all 3 cars driven by the same driver horst von saurma before any of you start going on about them not being driven by drivers of equal talent).

Tyres. Pretty sure they test the cars as you'd expect to buy them from the dealer and I'm almost 100% they ran the CSL round the 'ring on cups.

32 seconds is less than half a second per corner given there are so many of the damn things :-)

[shimmy]

Tyres. Pretty sure they test the cars as you'd expect to buy them from the dealer and I'm almost 100% they ran the CSL round the 'ring on cups.

32 seconds is less than half a second per corner given there are so many of the damn things :-)

Tyres maybe 1/3

Weight 1/3

Suspension 1/3

[DuncanR]

all I am trying to figure out is if I will get any real benefit round a track from a CSL over my M3 once I've spent some money improving it, besides it feeling more 'special'.

Decisions decisions...But at the end of the track day ... you will still be going home in an M3 ..... :smt102

[DuncanR]

I think I just need to drive a CSL, although I just want to think about my options before I drive one - I dont want the carbon airbox howl blinkers to take hold of me and buy the CSL there and then on impulse! :supz:You can drive mine if you are around this area funtime ... me and your GF can wait and eat shit sanwiches until you come back ..... best make quite a few of them sandwiches !!:thumbs:

[DuncanR]

i like M Track:thumbs: I should have used M track !! FFS :banghead::banghead::banghead:

[DuncanR]

If you were going to completely strip (ie devalue, or "ruin" to some) a car, I say Colonel !! .... I bought it like that :hahaha:

[funtime]

i remember when the csl was released and so many people sold them back to the dealer cos they couldnt see what all the fuss was about. until of course people realised that comparing the two is like comparing chalk and cheese.

i have been driving the e46 chassis for 10 years. i have owned 5 e46 m3s, 2 at the same time! i had the coupe first, then the vert, and then a csl with the vert.

i tuned both the coupe and the vert with: tein edfc suspension (i know but it was back in the day!), gruppe m ram air and ti exhaust, supersprint x pipe, dms remap, rear differential 3.9:1, rogue pulleys, front and rear ac shnitzer strut braces (vert doesnt fit rear strut brace) and both with 100 shot of nos. the coupe i sold to my cousin so it was always close by. the first csl i got i put tein edfc suspension, gruppe m ti exhaust, supersprint x pipe, front and rear strut brace, rear differential 3.9:1 and dms remap. no nos.

the vert could keep up with the coupe no problem except when taking bends at 120mph+. in fact 0-40mph the vert was the fastest out of all of them as it is heavier and could get the power down better.

the coupe kept up with the csl but not easily, and eventually the csl would lose the coupe. there is a reason why a stock csl is 32secs quicker round the ring than a stock e46 m3 coupe, and only 2 secs slower than the e92 m3 gts (all 3 cars driven by the same driver horst von saurma before any of you start going on about them not being driven by drivers of equal talent).
its not just the steering rack or the extra power or the suspension or the weight loss- its the whole package. all the mods work in perfect harmony to provide the driver with one of the most enthralling, connected driving experiences around.

yes you can tune a coupe to be as fast or even faster than a csl, but do the same to a csl and the tuned coupe wont see which way you went in the csl. the money you will spend to make the coupe equal to a stock csl, you might as well buy a csl. even then it still wont be as good as the csl has been modified by bmw to be very special, if you think you can do a better job with the coupe, by all means try. the saying so close yet so far springs to mind.

Thanks for that, sounds like you've had some pretty serious M3's - more tuned than I'd ever go... and the end result is the CSL still comes out on top!

[funtime]

I've had two M3s and now a CSL.

Being honest - "real world" difference in terms of A to B on the roads? Nothing really assuming both M3 and CSL have same tyres. On the roads you don't (shouldn't?) be reaching the limits of brakes. The "real world experience" is different though, CSL just sounds more raw which adds to the illusion of speed.

Track? Well, both cars need modifying to make them sustainable on track. I'd argue that if you stripped both cars, same tyres/suspension/brakes then again, going to be fook all in it.

The deciding factor is just working out what you want it for, how much cash you have etc. The CSL is a rare beast on the roads whereas E46 are still very common. If you like the idea of taking good care of a car and having something different, CSL is ace. Although bear in mind that if used as a daily driver you're going to be far more narked if someone dings it in a carpark etc. You also can't get away from the impressive price hike a CSL demands over its equivalent mileage/condition M3.

You mentioned the girlfriend - remember that CSL seats don't adjust and the suspension can seem hard compared to modern armchairs so this may not win any favours.

If you were going to completely strip (ie devalue, or "ruin" to some) a car, do it with an M3. If you want a fast road car that looks the business and is also capable on track, CSL with brakes/suspension will be hard to beat.

Although - I did the Andy Walsh carlimits day yesterday with my brother. On Andy's "circuit" he punted the CSL round in 52 seconds, and my brothers crappy little 1.8 mx5 in 54 seconds. His circuit is essentially doing short blasts between cones and back again, so isn't representative of a track, but is probably similar to blasting between the roundabouts at milton keynes. Makes you think....

Anyhow, sounds like you want a decent ride for the road, either will do that nicely.

That has to be the most contradictory view so far, interesting that you think they'd be nothing in it if the same mods were applied to both cars, however I think that the crucial point is 'stripping'. I don't want to 'strip' my car and only then would you minimise the difference between the two as the weight would be a lot closer. Without stripping the M3 I wouldn't get anywhere near the weight of a CSL, which is essentially the key to track performance.... is this me back tracking and starting to go for the CSL?!?

As for the circuit you mention, a 52 second lap would make for a reasonably small track like you say, which is not what the CSL and neither the M3 is suited to. I'd imagine something like a Clio cup would have been as quick if not quicker than a CSL on a tight track - I certainly struggled with a few fettled ones on the weekend at Silverstone in the wet!

Tyres maybe 1/3

Weight 1/3

Suspension 1/3

I would agree with you in pointing out it's unlikely to just be down to the tyres, however I'd say it's much more to do with the weight than the suspension surely? (assuming the CSL suspension is standard)

Tyres. Pretty sure they test the cars as you'd expect to buy them from the dealer and I'm almost 100% they ran the CSL round the 'ring on cups.

32 seconds is less than half a second per corner given there are so many of the damn things :-)

You can drive mine if you are around this area funtime ... me and your GF can wait and eat shit sandwiches until you come back ..... best make quite a few of them sandwiches !!:thumbs:

Duncan, if your serious about that then I wouldn't mind taking you up on the offer, providing there's nobody much closer to me. When I mention the girlfriend and her take on the situation - it was only in relation to a 'stripped out' M3 track car with no carpets etc... she would have no problem with the CSL whatsoever! :thumbs:

[still no worries]

when looking for my csl i test drove an e46 m3 first and was disappointed, (my 330 was half the price ) then i found the csl and could not believe the difference, mine 2 days later.
also if you spend 5k on a 10k e46 m3 it will worth about 10k.

[funtime]

I should have used M track !! FFS :banghead::banghead::banghead:

Have you had an off Duncan?

when looking for my csl i test drove an e46 m3 first and was disappointed, (my 330 was half the price ) then i found the csl and could not believe the difference, mine 2 days later.
also if you spend 5k on a 10k e46 m3 it will worth about 10k.

Yes I realise that the car wouldn't be worth any more when I sold it, but I'd be silly to sell it with any modifications I'd done still on the car. Everything I've listed is fully reversible, and providing I brought most of it second had to start with, I would loose a minimal amount of money on it.

Although the CSL is not going to depreciate, my M3 has almost bottomed out now and will go very slowly from here..so I wouldn't stand to loose much.

[DuncanR]

Duncan, if your serious about that then I wouldn't mind taking you up on the offer, providing there's nobody much closer to me. When I mention the girlfriend and her take on the situation - it was only in relation to a 'stripped out' M3 track car with no carpets etc... she would have no problem with the CSL whatsoever! :thumbs: :hahaha: you obviously havent seen mine then !! ..best not bring her ! No problem if your business travels bring you this far, there are others closer ...you know who you are !! "Dont tell him Pike".. lazy fookers ...give the lad a ride !;)

[glendog74]

Tyres do play a big part - on a long track with many corners like the Ring.

My first 3 Ring weekends with the CSL were running on PS2s - and i was up to an ok enough pace by then circa 8:40 average BTG during TF sessions.

I tried Cups for the first time on my 4th visit and immediately i dropped 20 seconds on a lap. Ok, i also had APs fitted by this stage but i do not feel that the brakes contributed much in the way of reducing the laptime, just that the brakes did not judder or overheat anymore! :thumbs:

Slowly been 'nibbling' away at BTG times since then... :whistle:

[DazBlackCSL]

Slowly been 'nibbling' away at cheese since then... :whistle:

Think we do need to a group buy on cheese again :whistle:

[DuncanR]

Slowly been 'nibbling' away at BTG times since then... :whistle:Make sure you nibble mate .... try taking a big bite .... and your CSL will bite your ass !!:hahaha: ... make a difference from Daz biting the fooker !

[DuncanR]

Think we do need to a group buy on cheese again :whistle: Screwfix are doing a great deal on a Steam Cleaner , free lump of edam ... and they throw in a free model boat FFS :banghead::banghead:

[DazBlackCSL]

Screwfix are doing a great deal on a Steam Cleaner , free lump of edam ... and they throw in a free model boat FFS :banghead::banghead:

have you got a link :-D

[glendog74]

Linky please! Especially if it's that Maersk line boat!

[AlexGTT]

Think we do need to a group buy on cheese again :whistle:

Agreed Daz. :hahaha: Still didn't get mine from last year!;)

Great thread. Simple answer is just book a test drive. Believe me, you will want.:thumbs:

All this talk of mods, tuning, 1/2 a second here and there means feck all. It ain't a blinkin' racecar. Just enjoy cars like the CSL while you can and add some toys if you want. :smokin:

[funtime]

:hahaha: you obviously havent seen mine then !! ..best not bring her ! No problem if your business travels bring you this far, there are others closer ...you know who you are !! "Dont tell him Pike".. lazy fookers ...give the lad a ride !;)

I have seen your car, and yes I know it's heavily modified, but it's not a full on race car with no carpets is it? :hahaha:

I'll see how I get on and if Munich Legends will have one in soon, but if not, it would be good to see what an example as well set up as yours goes like :)

And what's all this 'Dont tell him Pike' about?

Tyres do play a big part - on a long track with many corners like the Ring.

My first 3 Ring weekends with the CSL were running on PS2s - and i was up to an ok enough pace by then circa 8:40 average BTG during TF sessions.

I tried Cups for the first time on my 4th visit and immediately i dropped 20 seconds on a lap. Ok, i also had APs fitted by this stage but i do not feel that the brakes contributed much in the way of reducing the laptime, just that the brakes did not judder or overheat anymore! :thumbs:

Slowly been 'nibbling' away at BTG times since then... :whistle:

That's interesting, are you sure the AP's didn't make much difference?

My mate manages a 8:33 BTG with a standard SMG M3 (only mod being yellow stuff pads) and that's on PS2's, although he does know the track rather well. Laps on you tube - search 8:33

He now has a M3 CS and just put the new Michelin Super Sport tyres (supposedly as grippy as Cup's) on so it will be interesting to see the difference.

Agreed Daz. :hahaha: Still didn't get mine from last year!;)

Great thread. Simple answer is just book a test drive. Believe me, you will want.:thumbs:

All this talk of mods, tuning, 1/2 a second here and there means feck all. It ain't a blinkin' racecar. Just enjoy cars like the CSL while you can and add some toys if you want. :smokin:

I see your point, granted, it's not a race car, but we all long for more performance, and I'm just trying to weigh up my options and the business case for each... ;)

[DuncanR]

I have seen your car, and yes I know it's heavily modified, but it's not a full on race car with no carpets is it? :hahaha:

Carpets ??? ... where are they then ??:whistle: .. ah ! there it is ! a CF one at top of picture !:thumbs:

http://www.cslregister.com/forum/album.php?albumid=76&pictureid=718

[funtime]

Carpets ??? ... where are they then ??:whistle: .. ah ! there it is ! a CF one at top of picture !:thumbs:

http://www.cslregister.com/forum/album.php?albumid=76&pictureid=718

Fair play, that is hardcore!!! :supz:

[AlexGTT]

Duncan doesn't even get out to take a piss these days.:hahaha:

[Mark CSL]

Duncan doesn't even get out to take a piss these days.:hahaha:

:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

[toofastforyou]

Tyres. Pretty sure they test the cars as you'd expect to buy them from the dealer and I'm almost 100% they ran the CSL round the 'ring on cups.

32 seconds is less than half a second per corner given there are so many of the damn things :-)

tyres are not the only variable that will improve a lap time by 32secs. sure they play a part, but as i said before it is the combination of all the mods bmw made to create the csl working harmoniously that allow such a time. it is the whole package that is the csl.

[AlexGTT]

tyres are not the only variable that will improve a lap time by 32secs. sure they play a part, but as i said before it is the combination of all the mods bmw made to create the csl working harmoniously that allow such a time. it is the whole package that is the csl.

Agreed.

And the car feels so good as well. It's not just the time.

[glendog74]

Agreed.

And the car feels so good as well. It's not just the time.

I like the 'feel' of the alcantara against my bare skin - always gets a bit of blood in the old fella... :clown:

[s.mac]

Thats where you left your glasses then Dunc you blind f...... :whistle:

[toofastforyou]

I like the 'feel' of the alcantara against my bare skin - always gets a bit of blood in the old fella... :clown:

:hahaha::hahaha:

[funtime]

I like the 'feel' of the alcantara against my bare skin - always gets a bit of blood in the old fella... :clown:

That's just wrong :hahaha:

[AlexGTT]

I like the 'feel' of the alcantara against my bare skin - always gets a bit of blood in the old fella... :clown:

Agreed Rob but do you have to do that on every roadtrip?;):hahaha:

[AlexGTT]

That's just wrong :hahaha:

Fuckin' hell. Wait till you meet him!:whistle::hahaha:

[shimmy]

That's interesting, are you sure the AP's didn't make much difference?

My mate manages a 8:33 BTG with a standard SMG M3 (only mod being yellow stuff pads) and that's on PS2's, although he does know the track rather well. Laps on you tube - search 8:33

;)

but thats a minute off the pace - i can do that and ive never been on the Ring :smokin:

[shimmy]

I would agree with you in pointing out it's unlikely to just be down to the tyres, however I'd say it's much more to do with the weight than the suspension surely? (assuming the CSL suspension is standard)


:thumbs:

Youve gotta remember that the CSL was built for the Ring and the dev time went into the suspension for the Ring

Now agree that all these things working together will overall be more than the sum of their parts but dont underestimate the OEm suspension

[funtime]

but thats a minute off the pace - i can do that and ive never been on the Ring :smokin:

:hahaha: never been on what ring?! How is it a minute off the pace for a standard M3? a CSL standard only laps in 7:50 with a racing driver and cup tyres? :hahaha:

[AlexGTT]

Shim, when you've tried and done everything, you realise how good they got it in the first place.

Apart from the brakes that is.:thumbs:

[funtime]

Youve gotta remember that the CSL was built for the Ring and the dev time went into the suspension for the Ring

Now agree that all these things working together will overall be more than the sum of their parts but dont underestimate the OEm suspension

Hmmm I suppose, but if it's that good then why does everyone change it? or have you all reached the stage where the standard suspension was holding you back :whistle:

Is that why your going to sell me your Intrax Shimmy? :beer:

[AlexGTT]

:hahaha: never been on what ring?! How is it a minute off the pace for a standard M3? a CSL standard only laps in 7:50 with a racing driver and cup tyres? :hahaha:

That's a full lap.

We only do BtoG.;)

[funtime]

That's a full lap.

We only do BtoG.;)

DOH :banghead:

This is true....well anyway, it would be a minute of the pace if he was a racing driver like the 7:50 ring time was :blalalala:

[toofastforyou]

Youve gotta remember that the CSL was built for the Ring and the dev time went into the suspension for the Ring

Now agree that all these things working together will overall be more than the sum of their parts but dont underestimate the OEm suspension

well put

[shimmy]

:hahaha: never been on what ring?! How is it a minute off the pace for a standard M3? a CSL standard only laps in 7:50 with a racing driver and cup tyres? :hahaha:

8,33 BTG is 9.00 full lap vs 7.50 full lap

[titan]

That has to be the most contradictory view so far, interesting that you think they'd be nothing in it if the same mods were applied to both cars, however I think that the crucial point is 'stripping'. I don't want to 'strip' my car and only then would you minimise the difference between the two as the weight would be a lot closer. Without stripping the M3 I wouldn't get anywhere near the weight of a CSL, which is essentially the key to track performance.... is this me back tracking and starting to go for the CSL?!?

Contradictory? Perhaps not the usual fanboi view :-)

In all seriousness, you're asking whether to plump for an M3 or CSL on a CSL forum. You're bound to get lots of pro-CSL chat, some good some not so good. I'm not pro-CSL, instead I just look at the factors with a clear head.

The fact of the matter is that a CSL has something like a £10k premium on a stock M3. To some thats no money, to others it represents winning the lottery. YMMV ! Its not a £10k better car though is it?

And put a stock M3 in the hands of someone talented versus average Jo in his CSL. We know the outcome there.

I believe I answered your subject, the question being "Real world difference" - the difference is that you'll be £10k lighter in the wallet with something a bit more prestigious but it won't halve your commute time.

[shimmy]

! Its not a £10k better car though is it?

.


:hahaha:


is muppet spelt with a double 't'?

[toofastforyou]

:hahaha:


is muppet spelt with a double 't'?
:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

again well put.

@titan no offence meant but have you ever driven a csl?

[funtime]

Contradictory? Perhaps not the usual fanboi view :-)

In all seriousness, you're asking whether to plump for an M3 or CSL on a CSL forum. You're bound to get lots of pro-CSL chat, some good some not so good. I'm not pro-CSL, instead I just look at the factors with a clear head.

The fact of the matter is that a CSL has something like a £10k premium on a stock M3. To some thats no money, to others it represents winning the lottery. YMMV ! Its not a £10k better car though is it?

And put a stock M3 in the hands of someone talented versus average Jo in his CSL. We know the outcome there.

I believe I answered your subject, the question being "Real world difference" - the difference is that you'll be £10k lighter in the wallet with something a bit more prestigious but it won't halve your commute time.

Yeah I see your point and I was expecting a slightly bias view... I would agree with you on the whole, the thing I'm trying to weigh up now is the investment side of things...a CSL is a sure punt at the moment, and I'm beginning to think I'll be more content with one no matter how much I chuck at my M3. :banghead:

[shimmy]

:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

again well put.

@titan no offence meant but have you ever driven a csl?

hes got one, and had an M3 before.

Im guessing he paid more than £10k difference between the two (they certainly are more thna £10k difference in price now:whistle:)

[funtime]

:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

again well put.

@titan no offence meant but have you ever driven a csl?

hes got one, and had an M3 before.

Im guessing he paid more than £10k difference between the two (they certainly are more thna £10k difference in price now:whistle:)

Beat me to it. With regard to the price difference between the two though, a late M3 with low miles will still fetch between 15-17k and CSL's (allbeit slightly leggy ones) can be had for 22k+ so the difference all depends on the examples in hand.

The price of CSL's vary less as they were only built for a year where as the E46 M3 was built from 2000-2006

Shimmy, did you get my pm? ;)

[toofastforyou]

hes got one, and had an M3 before.

Im guessing he paid more than £10k difference between the two (they certainly are more thna £10k difference in price now:whistle:)

fair enough but he talks like hes never driven one or he doesnt know how to drive one. no offence meant titan;)

[shimmy]

Shimmy, did you get my pm? ;)

not sure, got soooo many of the feckers today


ill check and get back to you

[funtime]

not sure, got soooo many of the feckers today


ill check and get back to you

ok, thanks :thumbs:

[monkeycsl]

stolen from another post but sums up your situation!!!!!
(this thing is just phenomenal, and if anyone on here is still in two minds about whether to take the CSL plunge, then all I can say is don't even risk taking it for a test drive as the decision will then be made for you.

I walked past a 993 C2 at lunchtime today, which was the other motor I was considering. Did I worry I'd made a mistake? Did I f...

[AlexGTT]

Contradictory? Perhaps not the usual fanboi view :-)

In all seriousness, you're asking whether to plump for an M3 or CSL on a CSL forum. You're bound to get lots of pro-CSL chat, some good some not so good. I'm not pro-CSL, instead I just look at the factors with a clear head.

The fact of the matter is that a CSL has something like a £10k premium on a stock M3. To some thats no money, to others it represents winning the lottery. YMMV ! Its not a £10k better car though is it?

And put a stock M3 in the hands of someone talented versus average Jo in his CSL. We know the outcome there.

I believe I answered your subject, the question being "Real world difference" - the difference is that you'll be £10k lighter in the wallet with something a bit more prestigious but it won't halve your commute time.

:whistle:

[alexk]

10k difference, hahaha.

That's UK prices.
Come in CH, where a good M3 is 30k CHF and a good CSL 85k CHF ;)

Here CSL is not the average Joe's car

[funtime]

stolen from another post but sums up your situation!!!!!
(this thing is just phenomenal, and if anyone on here is still in two minds about whether to take the CSL plunge, then all I can say is don't even risk taking it for a test drive as the decision will then be made for you.

I walked past a 993 C2 at lunchtime today, which was the other motor I was considering. Did I worry I'd made a mistake? Did I f...

Yes mate I saw that on the guys post and it did make me think!

On a separate note, has your mate got his footage from Sunday? wouldn't mind seeing it is possible :) my footage is alright, but would be much better with a wide angle!

10k difference, hahaha.

That's UK prices.
Come in CH, where a good M3 is 30k CHF and a good CSL 85k CHF ;)

Here CSL is not the average Joe's car

To be fair, you can get a good M3 over here for £10k but it will be basic, and a good CSL for £25k so at 2.5x the cost of a standard M3, it's not far of the price difference where you are (respectively speaking of course) :)

£10k sounds like £30k where you are :thumbs:

[alexk]

Yes mate I saw that on the guys post and it did make me think!

On a separate note, has your mate got his footage from Sunday? wouldn't mind seeing it is possible :) my footage is alright, but would be much better with a wide angle!



To be fair, you can get a good M3 over here for £10k but it will be basic, and a good CSL for £25k so at 2.5x the cost of a standard M3, it's not far of the price difference where you are (respectively speaking of course) :)

£10k sounds like £30k where you are :thumbs:

New price of the CSL here was 130k CHF. 80k is 61% of the original price.
New price of the M3 E46 was aprox. 90k CHF. 30k is 30% of the original price.

80k CHF is 53k GBP which is close to what the M3 CSL used to cost in UK brand new.
So I personally find the 20k GBP very low, which is good for the people in UK, but it doesn't really reflect the target group of this car.

[shimmy]

even the speeding fines are big in Swissland, i paid nearly £550

[funtime]

even the speeding fines are big in Swissland, i paid nearly £550

YIKES, how fast were you going? (obviously not fast enough :hahaha:)

[alexk]

even the speeding fines are big in Swissland, i paid nearly £550

What did you do Shimmy ?

PS : a lot of people from UK fall into the trap, they don't know how strict the Swiss are :banghead:

[shimmy]

What did you do Shimmy ?

PS : a lot of people from UK fall into the trap, they don't know how strict the Swiss are :banghead:


not very fast, and in a queue of 15 cars doing similar speeds:bigcry:

[toofastforyou]

New price of the CSL here was 130k CHF. 80k is 61% of the original price.
New price of the M3 E46 was aprox. 90k CHF. 30k is 30% of the original price.

80k CHF is 53k GBP which is close to what the M3 CSL used to cost in UK brand new.
So I personally find the 20k GBP very low, which is good for the people in UK, but it doesn't really reflect the target group of this car.

when the csl was released the exchange rate was 2.3/2.4 chf to 1 gbp, and at that time a csl in switzerland worked out to roughly 55k gbp. the chf to pound rate was the same at 2.3/2.4 chf to 1 gbp for as long as i can remember and im 30. its only in the past few years the chf has miraculously strengthened to 1.5 chf to 1 gbp. if you look at it like that the csl in switzerland has only depreciated 2k gbp since it was released.

so thats not really a fair comparison.

[glendog74]

.

[shane@mbtech]

3628

[AlexGTT]

:hahaha:

[sailorbaz]

Screwfix are doing a great deal on a Steam Cleaner , free lump of edam ... and they throw in a free model boat FFS :banghead::banghead:

One word... cock! I'll never live this down will I? :bigcry: :birdman:

[shane@mbtech]

One word... cock! I'll never live this down will I? :bigcry: :birdman:

One word........... NEVER :birdman::hahaha:

[TANKSLAPPER]

not very fast, and in a queue of 15 CSL's doing similar speeds:bigcry:


LOL :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

[shimmy]

LOL :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:


funny enough no CSLs, but a load of pork and prancing horses

[titan]

:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

again well put.

@titan no offence meant but have you ever driven a csl?

hah its ok I have very thick skin and well aware that my views often provoke reactions :D

Putting aside early years of car ownership, where the wife and I ran the SIDC (subaru club) - many years ago...we had an M3 from new. A fantastic car to jump into from an impreza because you appreciate things like build quality. The M3 was a slower car in terms of country lanes A to B though...

Another kid on the scene so I dobbed it in for an E60 M5. Another fantastic car in many ways but also very limited in others.

Eventually got rid of that and very quickly ended up with an X5, trailer and dedicated evo track car. Along the way got fed up with my evo breaking, so bought an M3, that was a tale of woe indeed and shortly after a CSL.

I'm no pro driver but to put some weight on my words, I've done a lot of trackdays, taken the M5 and M3 round the 'ring at okish speed, taken the evo round at 7:45 and managed to squeeze 2 trackdays out of the CSL in a relatively short period of ownership. So its not like I'm an internet forum hero who's never driven them.

I picked up a perfectly good M3 for £12k. The CSL I grabbed for £22k. Even I can grasp basic maths ;-)

In terms of its quality of build, practicality and performance it is near-as-dammit on an equal par with a stock M3, hence my comment "its not worth £10k extra". You are paying for the prestige and rarity.

Does anyone think that a V8 Atom is worth £150k when you can pick up an SC-300 Atom for £45k?

Just stand back and try and take an unbiased view. I love the quotes of weight being a factor - 1385Kg vs 1570Kg I think they were. 'course, everyone ordered theirs with aircon and electric this that and the other, so effectively reducing the lightweight advantage to negligible. And the M3 owner only has to take out his front seats to save a bucket of weight - man those things are HEAVY.

I really enjoy my CSL and think it does very well as both a road and a track car, and its built well enough. But the original question was about real world difference between M3 and CSL, there's been lots of "chat" but I'm not sure anyone other than me attempted to answer the OP in context.

[AlexGTT]

My CSL has Aircon, Xenons and Radio. When standard on Simpson's scales with 1/4 tank it's 1422kg's. It's now 1394kg's.

My old M3 with a decent spec. On Simpson's scales with the same fuel load was 1595kg's.

I'd say that's significant.

It's also a significantly different experience to drive but I understand where your coming from.

Is an RS worth £20k more or that much better than a GT3? Pointless arguement really. It just is that way. Same with a CSL.

[DazBlackCSL]

I thought I was on the steam cleaner thread for a few moments :clown:

[_Nathan_]

Given the only real weight adding options were radio, xenons and ac there is little chance of speccing one up to near a normal m3.

Mine with 2/3 tank with ac and radio was 1420kg, still heavy but not m3 heavy.

I maintain the quicker car on the road from a to b will be the one with the least cautious driver...

[TANKSLAPPER]

I maintain the quicker car on the road from a to b will be the one with the least cautious driver...


Very good, I like. lol

T$

[AlexGTT]

Given the only real weight adding options were radio, xenons and ac there is little chance of speccing one up to near a normal m3.

Mine with 2/3 tank with ac and radio was 1420kg, still heavy but not m3 heavy.

I maintain the quicker car on the road from a to b will be the one with the least cautious driver...

On the road, different drivers in each, agreed. But I know which car I'd be quicker and feel more confident in, and by some margin.

[alexk]

I measured the weight of my CSL this friday.
full tank -> 1420kg
options are AP racing brakes front/rear and SS race lightweight (AC, radiocd, xenon and rainsensor).

[toofastforyou]

My CSL has Aircon, Xenons and Radio. When standard on Simpson's scales with 1/4 tank it's 1422kg's. It's now 1394kg's.

My old M3 with a decent spec. On Simpson's scales with the same fuel load was 1595kg's.

I'd say that's significant.

It's also a significantly different experience to drive but I understand where your coming from.

Is an RS worth £20k more or that much better than a GT3? Pointless arguement really. It just is that way. Same with a CSL.

+1

[titan]

My CSL has Aircon, Xenons and Radio. When standard on Simpson's scales with 1/4 tank it's 1422kg's. It's now 1394kg's.

My old M3 with a decent spec. On Simpson's scales with the same fuel load was 1595kg's.

I'd say that's significant.

Good stuff, can't beat having the figures. So, CS 1422 and M3 1595. 173Kg difference, right enough thats two decent sized chaps.

Alex - what did you do to go from 1422 to 1394 out of interest ?

I read somewhere that M3 seats weight 30Kg each. So depending on your mounts there's a fair bit to be saved there.

Nathan - spot on - as always, its the driver that makes the difference...

[AlexGTT]

Good stuff, can't beat having the figures. So, CS 1422 and M3 1595. 173Kg difference, right enough thats two decent sized chaps.

Alex - what did you do to go from 1422 to 1394 out of interest ?

I read somewhere that M3 seats weight 30Kg each. So depending on your mounts there's a fair bit to be saved there.

Nathan - spot on - as always, its the driver that makes the difference...

Not a lot. Probably same as you?

Supersprint centre section and lightweight rear box. -20kgs
AP's all round -4kgs???
Intrax - -?????
Some stuff out of the boot floor.

Result 1394kg's.:thumbs:

[funtime]

hah its ok I have very thick skin and well aware that my views often provoke reactions :D

Putting aside early years of car ownership, where the wife and I ran the SIDC (subaru club) - many years ago...we had an M3 from new. A fantastic car to jump into from an impreza because you appreciate things like build quality. The M3 was a slower car in terms of country lanes A to B though...

Another kid on the scene so I dobbed it in for an E60 M5. Another fantastic car in many ways but also very limited in others.

Eventually got rid of that and very quickly ended up with an X5, trailer and dedicated evo track car. Along the way got fed up with my evo breaking, so bought an M3, that was a tale of woe indeed and shortly after a CSL.

I'm no pro driver but to put some weight on my words, I've done a lot of trackdays, taken the M5 and M3 round the 'ring at okish speed, taken the evo round at 7:45 and managed to squeeze 2 trackdays out of the CSL in a relatively short period of ownership. So its not like I'm an internet forum hero who's never driven them.

I picked up a perfectly good M3 for £12k. The CSL I grabbed for £22k. Even I can grasp basic maths ;-)

In terms of its quality of build, practicality and performance it is near-as-dammit on an equal par with a stock M3, hence my comment "its not worth £10k extra". You are paying for the prestige and rarity.

Does anyone think that a V8 Atom is worth £150k when you can pick up an SC-300 Atom for £45k?

Just stand back and try and take an unbiased view. I love the quotes of weight being a factor - 1385Kg vs 1570Kg I think they were. 'course, everyone ordered theirs with aircon and electric this that and the other, so effectively reducing the lightweight advantage to negligible. And the M3 owner only has to take out his front seats to save a bucket of weight - man those things are HEAVY.

I really enjoy my CSL and think it does very well as both a road and a track car, and its built well enough. But the original question was about real world difference between M3 and CSL, there's been lots of "chat" but I'm not sure anyone other than me attempted to answer the OP in context.

Agreed, and I thank you for that, it's been the most informative post on here by a long way ;)

Given the only real weight adding options were radio, xenons and ac there is little chance of speccing one up to near a normal m3.

Mine with 2/3 tank with ac and radio was 1420kg, still heavy but not m3 heavy.

I maintain the quicker car on the road from a to b will be the one with the least cautious driver...

Let's just put this into context here...

When you refer to someone being the 'least cautious driver', I'm guessing that your referring to the fact that you would drive a normal M3 worth 10-15k faster than you would your 25-30k CSL?

Well if you spare a thought for those that might not be able to afford a CSL just yet, you'll soon realise that what is 30k to you, might be 10k to others, and in fact most of these cars are indeed our 'pride and joy' and are all driven with the same degree of caution.

It would be wonderful to drive a normal M3 like a loon and think 'oh well it's only 10k if I put it in the ditch'. But sadly that's not the case here. ;)

[AlexGTT]

Agreed, and I thank you for that, it's been the most informative post on here by a long way ;)


But inaccurate if you read my post.;)

[shimmy]

Agreed, and I thank you for that, it's been the most informative post on here by a long way ;)



Let's just put this into context here...

When you refer to someone being the 'least cautious driver', I'm guessing that your referring to the fact that you would drive a normal M3 worth 10-15k faster than you would your 25-30k CSL?

Well if you spare a thought for those that might not be able to afford a CSL just yet, you'll soon realise that what is 30k to you, might be 10k to others, and in fact most of these cars are indeed our 'pride and joy' and are all driven with the same degree of caution.

It would be wonderful to drive a normal M3 like a loon and think 'oh well it's only 10k if I put it in the ditch'. But sadly that's not the case here. ;)

James, I think you are reading that wrong, Nathans CSL. Is worth more than all our cars and it gets treated with no respect when Hr drives it. I think Nathan was referring to the fact that the fastest guy driving on the road is the one with the least respect for pedestrians abd other road users (the one who us prepared to risk more and not necessarily
Money)

[AlexGTT]

James, I think you are reading that wrong, Nathans CSL. Is worth more than all our cars and it gets treated with no respect when Hr drives it. I think Nathan was referring to the fact that the fastest guy driving on the road is the one with the least respect for pedestrians abd other road users (the one who us prepared to risk more and not necessarily
Money)

Exactly. There's a time and place for everything. It's been a very many years since I felt the need to out-do another car on the road.

There's plenty of opportunity to stretch the legs on cars like the CSL where I live, but that's for my satisfaction and at no risk to anyone else.

I'm sure that applies to most on this site.

[funtime]

James, I think you are reading that wrong, Nathans CSL. Is worth more than all our cars and it gets treated with no respect when Hr drives it. I think Nathan was referring to the fact that the fastest guy driving on the road is the one with the least respect for pedestrians abd other road users (the one who us prepared to risk more and not necessarily
Money)

oh dear, FAIL :( I'm sorry I totally got the wrong end of the stick if that's what he meant, in which case, yes I agree - what about track in that case then?

Apologies ;)

Exactly. There's a time and place for everything. It's been a very many years since I felt the need to out-do another car on the road.

There's plenty of opportunity to stretch the legs on cars like the CSL where I live, but that's for my satisfaction and at no risk to anyone else.

I'm sure that applies to most on this site.

I want to live where you do! :supz:

[daniel]

My CSL has Aircon, Xenons and Radio. When standard on Simpson's scales with 1/4 tank it's 1422kg's. It's now 1394kg's.

My old M3 with a decent spec. On Simpson's scales with the same fuel load was 1595kg's.

I'd say that's significant.

It's also a significantly different experience to drive but I understand where your coming from.

Is an RS worth £20k more or that much better than a GT3? Pointless arguement really. It just is that way. Same with a CSL.

On Simpson's scales with a full tank my car comes in at 1570KG (manual M3). Assuming the difference between a full tank and 1/4 is 48KG, 6KG saved on the CSL wheels vs BMW 18s, 4KG for APs, the difference isn't that big really (90KG). I guess you could drop 35-40KG on front seats alone?

[_Nathan_]

oh dear, FAIL :( I'm sorry I totally got the wrong end of the stick if that's what he meant, in which case, yes I agree - what about track in that case then?


Shim is right, I was referring to the fact that you can only drive to your visibility, the one prepared to risk the blind corner, the dodgy overtake etc etc will be the quicker between 2 points.

On track with equal drivers a CSL will batter a standard M3.

[_Nathan_]

On Simpson's scales with a full tank my car comes in at 1570KG (manual M3). Assuming the difference between a full tank and 1/4 is 48KG, 6KG saved on the CSL wheels vs BMW 18s, 4KG for APs, the difference isn't that big really (90KG). I guess you could drop 35-40KG on front seats alone?

3/4 tank = approx 45L = approx 33KG

CSL disks weigh more than M3 disks to start with too so not sure you can compare the weight loss evenly between the two cars?

Either way it is a considerable difference.

[shimmy]

My CSL two years ago was weighed on at 1440kg with APkit as only mod.

Mine has Xenons. A/C, radio

As Spa this year it was down to 1330kg

[Hazy]

This is a funny thread. :gayfight:

Ive had both cars, road and track, and my M3 has ended up as a 1200kg full on race car (new mods just being finished as we speak:drool:)

There is a really really simple answer to the original question, the real world difference between an M3 and CSL, ie, not laps of the ring, not which is the lightest,not which is worth the most,just if you jump in and drive both cars whats the difference. Simple simple answer.

The airbox.

Nuff said :)

[AlexGTT]

If you come on a CSL dedicated website asking that kind if question, you are going to get the differences explained in some detail. Nothing else should be expected.

The fact is, standard v standard the differences are quite marked, both from a driving and visual point of view.

Agree with Hazy. Airbox is definately the best of the changes.:smt055

[DazBlackCSL]

This is a funny thread. :gayfight:

Ive had both cars, road and track, and my M3 has ended up as a 1200kg full on race car (new mods just being finished as we speak:drool:)

There is a really really simple answer to the original question, the real world difference between an M3 and CSL, ie, not laps of the ring, not which is the lightest,not which is worth the most,just if you jump in and drive both cars whats the difference. Simple simple answer.

The airbox.

Nuff said :)

+1 having both on road and track, my race car was my old M3 different gravy, but the CSL made me smile more !