what are the best brakes to upgrade to?

[toofastforyou]

the time has come to upgrade my brakes, what do you guys recommend?

[glendog74]

There's plenty of threads on here if you try a search.

AP or Alcon with Pagid pads are the preferred choice of many on here.

[s.mac]

I'm sure you know this will come down to different personnel opinions.

There's a few out there
1st thing is how much have you got to spend...

Brembo, Movit, Alcon, AP, Stoptech, PF,Rotora,D2 the list goes on

[s.mac]

I think people forget there is a search option Rob :whistle:

[toofastforyou]

sorry didnt realise there is a search option. i heard from someone that ap have a problem getting warped. something to do with a fixed caliper instead of floating. it was something along those lines cant remember exactly.

im willing to spend between £2-3k. i want something really quality, something perfect......

[shimmy]

im willing to spend between £2-3k. i want something really quality, something perfect......

For that money i am not sure youll get anything on all 4 wheels.

Id say for the full AP kit all round fited you are looking at £4k. Maybe Stoptech do something cheaper.

My AP kits have done 50k miles and quite afew trackdays and have been faultless

[toofastforyou]

For that money i am not sure youll get anything on all 4 wheels.

Id say for the full AP kit all round fited you are looking at £4k. Maybe Stoptech do something cheaper.

My AP kits have done 50k miles and quite afew trackdays and have been faultless

yes you are right i know aps are 2500 for the fronts 1500 for the backs, but i was hoping to get trade price through a mate

[toofastforyou]

someone i know has a second hand set of aps, do u guys think it is worth buying them new or should i save the cash and get the used pair?

[Deezer-D]

Buy new. If you buy used you may need new discs (approx £500) an I would suggest having the calipers checked over by a specialist. They may need new seals / pistons. Sometimes you can save money buying used but if you have the money to buy new then do.

[shimmy]

Buy new. If you buy used you may need new discs (approx £500) an I would suggest having the calipers checked over by a specialist. They may need new seals / pistons. Sometimes you can save money buying used but if you have the money to buy new then do.

+1

[toofastforyou]

i think im gonna go with alcon csl cup brakes, have any of you guys had experience with them?

[Dan]

i think im gonna go with alcon csl cup brakes, have any of you guys had experience with them?

I think the user's Outnumbered and Titan have them fitted to their cars, try a search of their posts or drop them a PM :)

[DazBlackCSL]

i think im gonna go with alcon csl cup brakes, have any of you guys had experience with them?

Not a lot of diff between the two, I have AP's on mine with RS29's in, and did run the Alcon set up on my Race Car ( M3 ) and TBH, was no real world difference, the Alcon's look better, bigger on the rears but buy on price, and bed them in properly and you'll be fine with both.

AP's have a slightly better bite initially compared to the Alcon's where you have to stand on them a bit more, but for road and occasional tracking you'll never notice the diff

[toofastforyou]

Not a lot of diff between the two, I have AP's on mine with RS29's in, and did run the Alcon set up on my Race Car ( M3 ) and TBH, was no real world difference, the Alcon's look better, bigger on the rears but buy on price, and bed them in properly and you'll be fine with both.

AP's have a slightly better bite initially compared to the Alcon's where you have to stand on them a bit more, but for road and occasional tracking you'll never notice the diff

cheers mate

so alcon it is then! thanks for the advice

[toofastforyou]

btw guys what do you think is a good price to pay for alcon csl cup brakes?

thanks in advance

[DazBlackCSL]

link attached

Give thorney a call and see what he will do for you..

http://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/products/index.php?cPath=1329_1637_1342_1687_1688

[toofastforyou]

link attached

Give thorney a call and see what he will do for you..

http://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/products/index.php?cPath=1329_1637_1342_1687_1688

cheers daz, already spoke to john.:thumbs:

was just wondering what others had paid/quoted

[outnumbered]

I think the user's Outnumbered and Titan have them fitted to their cars, try a search of their posts or drop them a PM :)

not me, my CSL is bog standard...

[mickaldo]

ive got the alcons on mine and had ap,s on a subaru.wouldn`t say there`s a lot in it but the pads are easier to change on the ap`s and the alcons do look better.

[Dan]

cheers daz, already spoke to john.:thumbs:

was just wondering what others had paid/quoted

I did know that this site > http://www.ears.co.uk/index.php were doing a good deal on the Alcon kit at one point if you want to give them a call :)

not me, my CSL is bog standard...

Sorry mate, I got the username wrong, I know the guy I mean but can't remember his name on here :hahaha: :whistle:

[toofastforyou]

I did know that this site > http://www.ears.co.uk/index.php were doing a good deal on the Alcon kit at one point if you want to give them a call :)



Sorry mate, I got the username wrong, I know the guy I mean but can't remember his name on here :hahaha: :whistle:

thanks mate but i bought the alcons from tms today

[shane@mbtech]

thanks mate but i bought the alcons from tms today

I just paid £1300 for Alcon front kit for my evo X, brand new from mitsi, same caliper as you have bought,

I will be purchasing the rears too, they are £1150, so front and rear kit, full kit inc ds2500 pads, hoses, mounts etc under £2500inc vat.

I think to run alcons the M3 needs a bigger master cylinder set-up.
That is why the AP feel like they have a better initial bite IMO.

I have ran various set-ups on my M3 and CSL. The Alcon were very good yes, but they were not balanced for the car, giving too much rear bias, which ultimately made me slower. This is IMO. A couple of the ex CSL cup lads were ditching their alcons for this reason. Fast road and fun track will be fine, but when really really pushing hard on track/racing, the alcon upsets the back end and sacrifices corner entry/exit speeds.

I ran AP's, never had any issues,

They are all as good as each other, the Alcon look better, but replacement disc/pads cost more.

Horses for courses mate.

The alcons will not disappoint, for what I believe you will use them for.

[shimmy]

lawsy

cant this alcon thing be solved with some front brake bias or messing around with pad compounds?

[toofastforyou]

I just paid £1300 for Alcon front kit for my evo X, brand new from mitsi, same caliper as you have bought,

I will be purchasing the rears too, they are £1150, so front and rear kit, full kit inc ds2500 pads, hoses, mounts etc under £2500inc vat.

I think to run alcons the M3 needs a bigger master cylinder set-up.
That is why the AP feel like they have a better initial bite IMO.

I have ran various set-ups on my M3 and CSL. The Alcon were very good yes, but they were not balanced for the car, giving too much rear bias, which ultimately made me slower. This is IMO. A couple of the ex CSL cup lads were ditching their alcons for this reason. Fast road and fun track will be fine, but when really really pushing hard on track/racing, the alcon upsets the back end and sacrifices corner entry/exit speeds.

I ran AP's, never had any issues,

They are all as good as each other, the Alcon look better, but replacement disc/pads cost more.

Horses for courses mate.

The alcons will not disappoint, for what I believe you will use them for.

great NOW you tell me after i already bought em.

[shimmy]

great NOW you tell me after i already bought em.


dont worry, with your clubfoot and lack of balance youll never notice :bigcry:

[toofastforyou]

and if the cost of alcon front and rears is 2.5k how come tms retail em for 4150? from what i researched i thought alcons were better cos they use monoblock calipers?

[toofastforyou]

dont worry, with your clubfoot and lack of balance youll never notice :bigcry:
:gayfight::gayfight:

[shane@mbtech]

lawsy

cant this alcon thing be solved with some front brake bias or messing around with pad compounds?

I tried pad compound, a few different set-ups, still the same.

The only way would be to fit a brake bias control valve then set it up on track IMO. But this is for the enth degree, for track use they will be fine.

The pedal feel will only be resolved by a bigger master cylinder IMO.
The standard master cylinder is designed to run the standard calipers, the alcons will require more fluid movement to operate all the pistons, they are BIG calipers afterall. This is why its not a very sharp pedal,

[shane@mbtech]

and if the cost of alcon front and rears is 2.5k how come tms retail em for 4150? from what i researched i thought alcons were better cos they use monoblock calipers?

Just because Thorney retails them for £4150 does not mean thats how much you can get them for.



http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=352104&highlight=alcon

Them prices have increased slightly, I bought mine last year.


Theroretically monoblock is better than a 2 piece caliper, but in the real world most will not tell the difference.

The best calipers I feel are brembo 6 pots, that the porsche use.

[toofastforyou]

Just because Thorney retails them for £4150 does not mean thats how much you can get them for.



http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=352104&highlight=alcon

Them prices have increased slightly, I bought mine last year.


Theroretically monoblock is better than a 2 piece caliper, but in the real world most will not tell the difference.

The best calipers I feel are brembo 6 pots, that the porsche use.

so whats a good price to pay for them then mate?

so what you've got a csl and an evo x then?

[NZ_M3]

Don't run the rears with the Alcons - much more balanced that way.

[toofastforyou]

Don't run the rears with the Alcons - much more balanced that way.

so run what on the rears then?

[shimmy]

so run what on the rears then?

Edam

[NZ_M3]

The Alcon were very good yes, but they were not balanced for the car, giving too much rear bias


This is incorrect if you do the math.

The Alcon is the only aftermarket brake kit out there that I know of that more or less retains the CSL brake bias out of the box. I did the math and it adds up.

See below.


so run what on the rears then?

Standard setup with an equivalent brake pad compound as the front Alcons. I am running pagid rs29 on the front alcons and performance friction pfc01 and the brake balance is "perfect" (quote from a veteran champion professional racing driver and acredited bmw driver training instructor who took my car for a test run around a new track yesterday and provided me with some setup feedback)


If you want me to get really technical I can ... but as a reference.

The stock E46 M3 has a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.98 (i.e. front heavy)
The standard CSL has a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.73 (i.e. shifted slightly to the rear compared to the stock M3)
The standard Alcon kit in both front and rear configuration has a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.78 (i.e very close to the stock CSL setup)
Running just the front Alcon kit and retaining the stock CSL rear setup gives a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.82 (so in between the stock M3 and CSL setup - which I've found to be much much better).

As for those going with the AP racing kit - those kit are actually WAY MORE rear biased compared to all the other kits out there. For e.g. the 5570 kit has a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.61 (very rearward biased).

[glendog74]

If you want me to get really technical I can ...

Never! :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha:

Mr Gorilla will be along too if you start that :whistle:

[shimmy]

As for those going with the AP racing kit - those kit are actually WAY MORE rear biased compared to all the other kits out there. For e.g. the 5570 kit has a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.61 (very rearward biased).

All well and good Mr Tom but how does/should that relate to driving styles and performance. Why is one better than the other or are we just assuming BMW have it right and we should try to keep it biased as it was out of the box?

And if you have AP how will playing with pad compound front and back affect this rear bias (if at all)

[DazBlackCSL]

http://i564.photobucket.com/albums/ss88/SilentWolf8979/Smileys/thmf_popcorn.gif

[_Nathan_]

Can you show your calculations please.

[funtime]

Interesting thread, think I'll wait for a conclusion before I waste any money like 'toofastforyou' did, seems he was toofastforhimself :hahaha:

[_Nathan_]

Also - the suspension you have and it's effect on weight transfer under braking may change the optimum bias for your car...

Then you get in to other complexities like tyres and the weather, eg you move the bias rearwards when it is wet.

Basically on a car without bias adjustment is all you are looking for a compromise that suits you and your car's setup and driving style and maybe what is good for one isn't for another...

[shimmy]

Also - the suspension you have and it's effect on weight transfer under braking may change the optimum bias for your car...

Then you get in to other complexities like tyres and the weather, eg you move the bias rearwards when it is wet.

Basically on a car without bias adjustment is all you are looking for a compromise that suits you and your car's setup and driving style and maybe what is good for one isn't for another...

Nathan

That didnt help at all :hahaha:

[_Nathan_]

:whistle:

[NZ_M3]

Can you show your calculations please.

I will tomorrow, can't be bothered now ... it's nearly mid night here and I am watching a movie with the mrs :hahaha:

I used CoF at 0.36 and 750psi braking pressure for the calculations.

Also - the suspension you have and it's effect on weight transfer under braking may change the optimum bias for your car...

Then you get in to other complexities like tyres and the weather, eg you move the bias rearwards when it is wet.

Basically on a car without bias adjustment is all you are looking for a compromise that suits you and your car's setup and driving style and maybe what is good for one isn't for another...

Actually you could go on and argue that you need different brake bias for different sort of corners (as they do in F1).

But you are right, without a bias adjuster you will not have optimal braking for every single corner around the track.

Brake feel however is completely subjective.


Shimmy, I don't have any reference as to what is considered optimal braking. I've simply stated what the 'stock' is set at by BMW. Interesting they shifted the bias rearwards though in the CSL compared to the standard M3. Must have been a reason for doing that.

[shimmy]

I wonder if the weight saving on CSL mainly towards the rear meant they reduced rear bias?

[Curly]

Glad i bought the gayman now:hahaha:

[toofastforyou]

This is incorrect if you do the math.

The Alcon is the only aftermarket brake kit out there that I know of that more or less retains the CSL brake bias out of the box. I did the math and it adds up.

See below.




Standard setup with an equivalent brake pad compound as the front Alcons. I am running pagid rs29 on the front alcons and performance friction pfc01 and the brake balance is "perfect" (quote from a veteran champion professional racing driver and acredited bmw driver training instructor who took my car for a test run around a new track yesterday and provided me with some setup feedback)


If you want me to get really technical I can ... but as a reference.

The stock E46 M3 has a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.98 (i.e. front heavy)
The standard CSL has a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.73 (i.e. shifted slightly to the rear compared to the stock M3)
The standard Alcon kit in both front and rear configuration has a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.78 (i.e very close to the stock CSL setup)
Running just the front Alcon kit and retaining the stock CSL rear setup gives a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.82 (so in between the stock M3 and CSL setup - which I've found to be much much better).

As for those going with the AP racing kit - those kit are actually WAY MORE rear biased compared to all the other kits out there. For e.g. the 5570 kit has a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.61 (very rearward biased).


thank you very informative

[Bounce]

Nathan

That didnt help at all :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

[shane@mbtech]

This is incorrect if you do the math.

The Alcon is the only aftermarket brake kit out there that I know of that more or less retains the CSL brake bias out of the box. I did the math and it adds up.

See below.




Standard setup with an equivalent brake pad compound as the front Alcons. I am running pagid rs29 on the front alcons and performance friction pfc01 and the brake balance is "perfect" (quote from a veteran champion professional racing driver and acredited bmw driver training instructor who took my car for a test run around a new track yesterday and provided me with some setup feedback)


If you want me to get really technical I can ... but as a reference.

The stock E46 M3 has a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.98 (i.e. front heavy)
The standard CSL has a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.73 (i.e. shifted slightly to the rear compared to the stock M3)
The standard Alcon kit in both front and rear configuration has a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.78 (i.e very close to the stock CSL setup)
Running just the front Alcon kit and retaining the stock CSL rear setup gives a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.82 (so in between the stock M3 and CSL setup - which I've found to be much much better).

As for those going with the AP racing kit - those kit are actually WAY MORE rear biased compared to all the other kits out there. For e.g. the 5570 kit has a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.61 (very rearward biased).


I appreciate your input Tom, but math aside, when I fitted the Alcons, driving the same track, same weather, same wheels/tyres,same suspension.

It affected the balance of the car under extreme braking, not alarmingly so, but enough for me to notice, and enough to see drops in corner entry/mid corner/corner exit speeds, which also slowed down my straight line speed.

The alcon kit is very very good, but just makes the car feel unbalanced at 100% attack.

I am also not the only person to notice this.

The "issue" obviously has not bothered me at all as I now have Alcon fitted on my Evo X.
3639

A shameless Matt moment:gayfight:

[glendog74]

3639

A shameless Matt moment:gayfight:

You WHORE! :hahaha:

[northernjim]

cheap as chips those itchy mingy alcons :beer:

[DazBlackCSL]

Glad i bought the gayman now:hahaha:

Goes with the bag :whistle:

[NZ_M3]

Can you show your calculations please.


Just for you mate :beer:

I used stoptech's formula from here:
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/formulas%20_vehicle_braking_dynamics.pdf

Torque created by the caliper on the rotor (at the wheel) = TW

TW = PS x AP x μ x 2 x RE

PS = Pressure of system;
AP = Total Area of pistons in one half of caliper (one side of opposed type or active (piston) side of sliding or floater type);
μ (CoF) = Friction Coefficient; x 2, since there are two sides of the rotor that the pads are exerting force against;
RE = Effective Radius of clamping force

RE is expressed as Re = (D+d)/4
where D is disc usable outside diameter and d is disc usable inside diameter. Although Stoptech provided that the effective radius on the M3 can be expressed as ((disc diameter/20)-(AP))

The Brake Bias ratio is simply TW (front)/TW (Rear)

Have fun :clown:


And for those really good at Physics, here's a really good page full of formulas:

http://www.engineeringinspiration.co.uk/brakecalcs.html#der

[glendog74]

My head hurts again Tom - make it stop! :banghead:

[shimmy]

Just for you mate :beer:

I used stoptech's formula from here:
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/formulas%20_vehicle_braking_dynamics.pdf

Torque created by the caliper on the rotor (at the wheel) = TW

TW = PS x AP x μ x 2 x RE

PS = Pressure of system;
AP = Total Area of pistons in one half of caliper (one side of opposed type or active (piston) side of sliding or floater type);
μ (CoF) = Friction Coefficient; x 2, since there are two sides of the rotor that the pads are exerting force against;
RE = Effective Radius of clamping force

RE is expressed as Re = (D+d)/4
where D is disc usable outside diameter and d is disc usable inside diameter. Although Stoptech provided that the effective radius on the M3 can be expressed as ((disc diameter/20)-(AP))

The Brake Bias ratio is simply TW (front)/TW (Rear)

Have fun :clown:


And for those really good at Physics, here's a really good page full of formulas:

http://www.engineeringinspiration.co.uk/brakecalcs.html#der


+1

[mattCSLnut]

My head hurts again Tom - make it stop! :banghead:
I suggest less of this :banghead: and more of that :smt056 ... ;)

[NZ_M3]

My head hurts again Tom - make it stop! :banghead:

Sorry :blalalala:

I appreciate your input Tom, but math aside, when I fitted the Alcons, driving the same track, same weather, same wheels/tyres,same suspension.

It affected the balance of the car under extreme braking, not alarmingly so, but enough for me to notice, and enough to see drops in corner entry/mid corner/corner exit speeds, which also slowed down my straight line speed.

The alcon kit is very very good, but just makes the car feel unbalanced at 100% attack.

I am also not the only person to notice this.

The "issue" obviously has not bothered me at all as I now have Alcon fitted on my Evo X.


Shane I get what you are saying exactly. When I run different brake pad compounds in my car I notice a shift in brake balance. I can imagine what it must be like with the rear kit also in place.

Perhaps time we all invest in a brake bias adjuster :supz::supz:

[_Nathan_]

I have just bought this pedal box.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:GWV9f-UWJ5anmM::www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?form_prod_id%3D6771%26action%3Dproduct&t=1&usg=AFrqEzd1C7Y0RNbVhj61Rj3p4XReic8Weg

:smt055

[_Nathan_]

Ps, Ta for the calcs.

[DazBlackCSL]

I have just bought this pedal box.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:GWV9f-UWJ5anmM::www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?form_prod_id%3D6771%26action%3Dproduct&t=1&usg=AFrqEzd1C7Y0RNbVhj61Rj3p4XReic8Weg

:smt055

Nice box Nath :hahaha:

[shimmy]

I have just bought this pedal box.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:GWV9f-UWJ5anmM::www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?form_prod_id%3D6771%26action%3Dproduct&t=1&usg=AFrqEzd1C7Y0RNbVhj61Rj3p4XReic8Weg

:smt055


i can imagine you sitting there watch telly with your feet resting on it:whistle:

[_Nathan_]

You spying on me shim?

Cheers Daz ;)

[shimmy]

You spying on me shim?

Cheers Daz ;)


nope, just hacked into your answer phone messages

[glendog74]

nope, just hacked into your answer phone messages

You just been watching Question Time? :hahaha:

[AlexGTT]

i can imagine you sitting there watch telly with your feet resting on it:whistle:

I can imagine him playing GT5 with them.:hahaha:;)

Hey Daz, now there's the ideal pedal box for the frame and seat set up for GT5 your making up.:whistle:;)

[pkumarm3]

i run stoptech st40 all around w/pfc 06 brake pads and castrol srf brake fluid.

fantastic. the 06 have less initial bite compared to the 01, but they last a lot longer and are less harsh on rotors.

[Foamy]

Can someone please explain what's the difference between the grandly named Alcon 'CSL Cup' bbk and the regular Alcon bbk. They appear to be exactly the same.

Another issue with the Alcons is the rear bells are made of steel, so they weigh a lot more than standard at the back.

[AlexGTT]

Can someone please explain what's the difference between the grandly named Alcon 'CSL Cup' bbk and the regular Alcon bbk. They appear to be exactly the same.

Another issue with the Alcons is the rear bells are made of steel, so they weigh a lot more than standard at the back.

In a word. Nothing.

[shimmy]

In a word. Nothing.


Paint:smokin:

[shane@mbtech]

Paint and £1500 premium:smokin:


:smokin:

[M5 Powered]

The factory Alcon kit in the silver looks better in my opinion. The Alcon logo is etched and painted rather than a CSL Cup sticker.

Other than this, the kits are the same and both include Motul fluid and the stainless braided lines which have been nicely thought through and specific to each wheel / side of the car.

As mentioned earlier, the best pads are the RS29's — which installed and bedded correctly DON'T squeal!

best

Jonathan :thumbs:

[shimmy]

As mentioned earlier, the best pads are the RS29's — which installed and bedded correctly DON'T squeal!

best

Jonathan :thumbs:

Yes they do :birdman::smokin::hahaha::whistle:

[M5 Powered]

Use more copper grease ;) :hahaha:

[shimmy]

Use more copper grease ;) :hahaha:


Lard is better:whistle:

[shane@mbtech]

My rs29 did not squeal.

[M5 Powered]

Shimmy, Is that on the CSL or the Mx5? If the latter should you not be using L'Oréal paste? :hahaha:

[AlexGTT]

Drive like Miss Daisy and they squeal.

Drive like you should and they don't.;)

[titan]

The AP vs Alcon threads are legendary on almost every car forum. The same old stuff gets repeated.

If we pop on down to planet reality, I suspect that average Jo would never notice the difference. There are other factors that typically influence the decision.

I went with alcon because its what I had on the evo (so a known quantity), what my friend Jim has on his M3 (which brakes just fine) and the front discs/pads are the same as my evo, so I can keep one set of spares.

Common sense tells me that a larger disc will dissipate heat better and allow for a bigger pad surface therefore a bigger braking force. But common sense can't always be relied on.

I've spoken to a number of people about the front rear bias problem that has been discussed and not found anyone just yet who agrees or thinks that if the setup felt wrong, it could not be cured by different pad choices. I don't wish to argue this point lawsy, I accept that car characteristics are a personal opinion and you believe the AP setup to favour your driving; fair enough but in the interests of balance its worth pointing out that this isn't a universal view.

Either will be awesome compared to stock :-)

[funtime]

Wheres the best (cheapest ;) ) place to get a set of these Alcons? is there anywhere that supplies them for the same sort of money as Lawsy's Evo contact?

They shouldn't be any more as it's the same kit just with a different alloy bell and mounting bracket :thumbs:

[titan]

Mine came from thorny, £3.3k if I recall.

Its difficult to get "a cheap price" on alcons. Unlike AP they are only sold few a through channels in order to protect the brand. Reassuringly expensive ;-)

Ears couldn't match my thorny price for the unbranded alcon kit. So I went with the csl cup kit. As to whether you prefer the colours, thats personal.

One of the guys at alcon pulled the spec sheets and confirmed there was no difference between the csl cup kit and the alcon-stamped kit.

FWIW, I would recommend the carbotech pads. Lesser known as a brand, but I've been using them on other cars for ages and they seem more friendly than pagids. Available in a whole host of compounds, XP10 front and XP8 rear is a good combo, ace on trackdays, works fine on the road. Wheel friendly.

[M5 Powered]

Yes, agree with Titan.

Alcon are VERY protective over their few distributors. I actually know someone at the factory and there was absolutely no chance of a mates rates set!

Titan, how much do the carbotech pads work out for £££? for a set.


Jonathan

[shane@mbtech]

Yes, agree with Titan.

Alcon are VERY protective over their few distributors. I actually know someone at the factory and there was absolutely no chance of a mates rates set!

Titan, how much do the carbotech pads work out for £££? for a set.


Jonathan


Approximate £200 notes maybe £230 +vat

I run them and I find them personally better than the pagid rs
Just my view

[Foamy]

This is incorrect if you do the math.

The Alcon is the only aftermarket brake kit out there that I know of that more or less retains the CSL brake bias out of the box. I did the math and it adds up.

See below.




Standard setup with an equivalent brake pad compound as the front Alcons. I am running pagid rs29 on the front alcons and performance friction pfc01 and the brake balance is "perfect" (quote from a veteran champion professional racing driver and acredited bmw driver training instructor who took my car for a test run around a new track yesterday and provided me with some setup feedback)


If you want me to get really technical I can ... but as a reference.

The stock E46 M3 has a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.98 (i.e. front heavy)
The standard CSL has a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.73 (i.e. shifted slightly to the rear compared to the stock M3)
The standard Alcon kit in both front and rear configuration has a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.78 (i.e very close to the stock CSL setup)
Running just the front Alcon kit and retaining the stock CSL rear setup gives a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.82 (so in between the stock M3 and CSL setup - which I've found to be much much better).

As for those going with the AP racing kit - those kit are actually WAY MORE rear biased compared to all the other kits out there. For e.g. the 5570 kit has a front to rear brake bias ratio of 1.61 (very rearward biased).

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the CSL bias 2.17 ie more front biased than the regular M3?

[glendog74]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the CSL bias 2.17 ie more front biased than the regular M3?

Oh no - now you've done it! :banghead:

[M3Laith]

Get AP racing! They are bullet proof!

Mine's had 2 heavy-on-brakes trackdays, and 2 trips to the Alps and they're still happy bunnies. I've only had them for 6 months, and bought them second hand from a CSL owner that only tracked them.

[Foamy]

Get AP racing! They are bullet proof!

Mine's had 2 heavy-on-brakes trackdays, and 2 trips to the Alps and they're still happy bunnies. I've only had them for 6 months, and bought them second hand from a CSL owner that only tracked them.

Given the choice I will be going for the Brembo Gran Turismo kit which has fully floating discs and alloy bells all round.

I don't like the bolted front discs and standard rear discs on the AP kit which makes them seem the low budget option, and I don't fancy having the heavy Alcon hats on the rear.

Brembo's tick all the boxes for me:supz:

[_Nathan_]

Good shout, you need fully floating disks and alloy bells for the odd track day, pretty sure the AP kit wouldn't cope.

[alexk]

Good shout, you need fully floating disks and alloy bells for the odd track day, pretty sure the AP kit wouldn't cope.

I have the same experience Nathan ;)
APs are good only for supermarket use :whistle:

[Foamy]

Good shout, you need fully floating disks and alloy bells for the odd track day, pretty sure the AP kit wouldn't cope.

Sorry, I thought the question referred to what are the best brakes, not what's the best value.

I agree that Brembo are a very expensive option, but it was just an opinion on what I consider to be the best in all area's

[_Nathan_]

If price has nothing to do with it then you could do much better, carbon ceramic are miles lighter.

Truth is that any AP, Alcon, Brembo etc etc kit will be fine for track days and road use so why spend more than you need to unless you just want the bling. Personally I don't like the amount of holes Brembo seem to stick all over their disks, great way to reduce the friction surface area.

[Foamy]

If price has nothing to do with it then you could do much better, carbon ceramic are miles lighter.

Truth is that any AP, Alcon, Brembo etc etc kit will be fine for track days and road use so why spend more than you need to unless you just want the bling. Personally I don't like the amount of holes Brembo seem to stick all over their disks, great way to reduce the friction surface area.

You have the choice of drilled or slotted with Brembo.

Granted, the AP and Alcon kits are excellent brakes. I was simply pointing out their weaknesses. Just being honest.:beer:

[s.mac]

Get AP racing! They are bullet proof!



:smt009

[funtime]

I have to say after following this I'm more inclined to go with the Porsche set-up that Matt's done, less than half the cost of all the other options and it seems they are all as good/bad as each other :hahaha:

[Foamy]

I have to say after following this I'm more inclined to go with the Porsche set-up that Matt's done, less than half the cost of all the other options and it seems they are all as good/bad as each other :hahaha:

Yes, that's a budget option, but no one can claim it's going to be as good as a properly designed big brake kit from one of the big manufacturers.

[M5 Powered]

+1

I wouldn't put a Big Brake kit on a car that it hadn't been designed for. Too many variables - the master cylinder for starters.:banghead:

[glendog74]

:smt009

Now now Steve - just because the bloke who sold you his shabby APs saw you coming... :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha:

[mattCSLnut]

Yes, that's a budget option, but no one can claim it's going to be as good as a properly designed big brake kit from one of the big manufacturers.

I can ;) my set up has been thoroughly tried & tested :whistle: and BREMBO are a BIG manufacturer :thumbs:
90% as good as AP Racing at 1/3 of the cost, with affordable consumables like CSL O.E. discs and vast choice of inexpensive pads :thumbs:
Each to their own but don't knock it until you've tried it :whistle:

[glendog74]

I can ;) my set up has been thoroughly tried & tested :whistle: and BREMBO are a BIG manufacturer :thumbs:
90% as good as AP Racing at 1/3 of the cost, with affordable consumables like CSL O.E. discs and vast choice of inexpensive pads :thumbs:
Each to their own but don't knock it until you've tried it :whistle:

I was waiting for that reply! :hahaha:

BUT - WHAT NO PICS?! :whistle:

[mattCSLnut]

I was waiting for that reply! :hahaha:

BUT - WHAT NO PICS?! :whistle:
I knew you were ;) :hahaha: I aim to please :thumbs:
Here's a few obligatory pix :blalalala:

[Foamy]

I can ;) my set up has been thoroughly tried & tested :whistle: and BREMBO are a BIG manufacturer :thumbs:
90% as good as AP Racing at 1/3 of the cost, with affordable consumables like CSL O.E. discs and vast choice of inexpensive pads :thumbs:
Each to their own but don't knock it until you've tried it :whistle:

Thanks for that, but you have admitted that it's 90% which is exactly what I was saying. It's not as good as a properly designed bbk. What it is, is a good budget option. Nothing wrong with that, but each to their own.

BTW What size pistons do those calipers run?

This thread seems the same as most bbk discussions where it starts out discussing the best brake kits, only to end in 'what's the cheapest brake kits'. Two different questions.

If we are talking about cheap brake kits, what about D2, K-Sport, Hi Spec etc? They are all under £1k but I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole, but some will have a different opinion. Again, each to their own.

It seems to me that the best way to reply to the question is to ask how much money do you want to spend? Then make a recommendation based on budget.

Lets not forget, a quality bbk can always be sold on for good money when the car gets sold on.

[s.mac]

Rob, all I was saying is they are not bullet proof ;)

like most after market parts make sure you service them just like you would with the car and you wont go far wrong :smt023

[mattCSLnut]

Thanks for that, but you have admitted that it's 90% which is exactly what I was saying. It's not as good as a properly designed bbk. What it is, is a good budget option. Nothing wrong with that, but each to their own.

This thread seems the same as most bbk discussions where it starts out discussing the best brake kits, only to end in 'what's the cheapest brake kits'. Two different questions.

If we are talking about cheap brake kits, what about D2, K-Sport, Hi Spec etc? They are all under £1k but I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole, but some will have a different opinion. Again, each to their own.

It seems to me that the best way to reply to the question is to ask how much money do you want to spend? Then make a recommendation based on budget.

Lets not forget, a quality bbk can always be sold on for good money when the car gets sold on.

Not an admission, I'm a realist that's why I rate my BREMBO conversion @ 90% in comparison to AP stuff as I have driven/beem in AP Racing BBK equiped CSLs, on Road & Track and know how good they are :thumbs: ( that's not to say they are without their own little niggles ;) :hahaha: considering the initial and IMHO astronomical outlay) ;) plus the further expense of replacement consumables :bigcry:
My BBK solution is by no means the cheapest out there as I'm using Porsche derived BREMBO callipers but I feel they are up there with the BIG boys, at the fraction of the AP Racing/Alcon costs yet they're at least twice as good as all the other sub £1K BBK kits out there (which as it happens I didn't want to touch with an extended barge pole either) as I've trusted BREMBO brakes in previous years :thumbs: being an Ex Porker owner :smokin: and this is why I developed my own BBK solution that utilises the excellent CSL discs in conjunction with modern Porsche Cayman S BREMBO callipers :thumbs:
As for the BEST BBK out there for the CSL " Money no object " I guess AP Racing, ALCON or BREMBO's own E46 specific BBK kit which is even more money then AP Racing kit :banghead:

[Foamy]

Not an admission, I'm a realist that's why I rate my BREMBO conversion @ 90% in comparison to AP stuff as I have driven/beem in AP Racing BBK equiped CSLs, on Road & Track and know how good they are :thumbs: ( that's not to say they are without their own little niggles ;) :hahaha: considering the initial and IMHO astronomical outlay) ;) plus the further expense of replacement consumables :bigcry:
My BBK solution is by no means the cheapest out there as I'm using Porsche derived BREMBO callipers but I feel they are up there with the BIG boys, at the fraction of the AP Racing/Alcon costs yet they're at least twice as good as all the other sub £1K BBK kits out there (which as it happens I didn't want to touch with an extended barge pole either) as I've trusted BREMBO brakes in previous years :thumbs: being an Ex Porker owner :smokin: and this is why I developed my own BBK solution that utilises the excellent CSL discs in conjunction with modern Porsche Cayman S BREMBO callipers :thumbs:

Yes, I quite agree with you. If I were in the market for a sub £1k bbk, I would also look into the Porsche caliper/Csl disc route rather than those other three that I mentioned. Do you have the piston sizes for the calipers that you use? It's a very important factor.:beer:

[s.mac]

Matt do the pads wear evenly as they protrude the calippers somewhat, covering more of the disk? it may have been asked before

[mattCSLnut]

Yes, I quite agree with you. If I were in the market for a sub £1k bbk, I would also look into the Porsche caliper/Csl disc route rather than those other three that I mentioned. Do you have the piston sizes for the calipers that you use? It's a very important factor.:beer:
I did measure them at the time of the upgrade but I don't have the figures to hand, probably better to ask that question to one of the Pork boys ;) My fronts (and soon to arrive rears) are off a 2008 CAYMAN S, Porsche part numbers 996.351.425 and 426 for the fronts, if that helps.
Where is CURLY when U need him :whistle:

[mattCSLnut]

Matt do the pads wear evenly as they protrude the calippers somewhat, covering more of the disk? it may have been asked before
Steve, it depends which pads you use. The PAGIDS stuck out by about 1-2 mm beyond the outside edge of the disc but the EBC "Reds" don't. Either way it makes no difference and they do wear evenly :thumbs: and they seem to last longer :thumbs: then they did with the O.E. "wrongness" :banghead:
I have absolutely no complaints after 10 000 miles :thumbs: and quite a few of these on Track :whistle:

[Yanto]

Well I saw M5 Powered Alcons on Saturday and the colour of the calipers matches the SG exterior brilliantly, so that gets my vote :hahaha::hahaha:

(Thats my contribution to the tech section, I'm off)

[glendog74]

Rob, all I was saying is they are not bullet proof ;)


I know mate, i know... :goodman:

[toofastforyou]

I know mate, i know... :goodman:

:hahaha:

[s.mac]

:smt069

[funtime]

Yes, that's a budget option, but no one can claim it's going to be as good as a properly designed big brake kit from one of the big manufacturers.

+1

I wouldn't put a Big Brake kit on a car that it hadn't been designed for. Too many variables - the master cylinder for starters.:banghead:

As already stated on this thread though - are the Alcon calipers not exactly the same as used on loads of different car's - evo's, jag's etc?

So how are they 'a properly designed BBK' designed specificly for the M3?

Or are the master cylinders, weights and brake bias' of all the car's the Alcon calipers are found on exactly the same? :hahaha:

For this reason alone, how are they any better than using the Brembo's from a Porsche with mounting brackets and disc's to match?

Fair enough if someone can give a proper technical explanation as to how they are 'designed' specifically for the M3 or CSL, but so far these 'proper BBK's' are just another big calliper and a means of bolting it to the M3 hub?

James

[shane@mbtech]

:smokin:As already stated on this thread though - are the Alcon calipers not exactly the same as used on loads of different car's - evo's, jag's etc?

So how are they 'a properly designed BBK' designed specificly for the M3?

Or are the master cylinders, weights and brake bias' of all the car's the Alcon calipers are found on exactly the same? :hahaha:

For this reason alone, how are they any better than using the Brembo's from a Porsche with mounting brackets and disc's to match?

Fair enough if someone can give a proper technical explanation as to how they are 'designed' specifically for the M3 or CSL, but so far these 'proper BBK's' are just another big calliper and a means of bolting it to the M3 hub?

James

Tuning is like a penis, the bigger the better, well thats what a tuner once told me:smokin:

[Foamy]

As already stated on this thread though - are the Alcon calipers not exactly the same as used on loads of different car's - evo's, jag's etc?

So how are they 'a properly designed BBK' designed specificly for the M3?

Or are the master cylinders, weights and brake bias' of all the car's the Alcon calipers are found on exactly the same? :hahaha:

For this reason alone, how are they any better than using the Brembo's from a Porsche with mounting brackets and disc's to match?

Fair enough if someone can give a proper technical explanation as to how they are 'designed' specifically for the M3 or CSL, but so far these 'proper BBK's' are just another big calliper and a means of bolting it to the M3 hub?

James

The pretty Brembo, Alcon, AP calipers might all look the same but there are many variations of each caliper.

People seem to think a bbk is just any old caliper mounted to a bracket which aligns with the disc and Bobs your Uncle. I'm afraid it's definitely not the case.

A proper bbk is designed using a caliper with the correct radius for the disc used.

The disc should have the correct sized face to match the caliper and pad as well as the disc thickness.

The piston area should be roughly the same as the oem caliper to keep bias correct.

Alloy brackets on the fronts should ideally have steel threaded inserts and be hard anodized. Studs etc must be high tensile.

If you think you can go on ebay and make up a bbk that's as well thought out as a pukka jobbie, then go ahead. I just wouldn't do it myself and I wouldn't buy a car that had one.

Glwtbbk

[shane@mbtech]

The pretty Brembo, Alcon, AP calipers might all look the same but there are many variations of each caliper.

People seem to think a bbk is just any old caliper mounted to a bracket which aligns with the disc and Bobs your Uncle. I'm afraid it's definitely not the case.

A proper bbk is designed using a caliper with the correct radius for the disc used.

The disc should have the correct sized face to match the caliper and pad as well as the disc thickness.

The piston area should be roughly the same as the oem caliper to keep bias correct.

Alloy brackets on the fronts should ideally have steel threaded inserts and be hard anodized. Studs etc must be high tensile.

If you think you can go on ebay and make up a bbk that's as well thought out as a pukka jobbie, then go ahead. I just wouldn't do it myself and I wouldn't buy a car that had one.

Glwtbbk

What a load of bollocks

AP calipers are the same size, same disc size, same pad shape on many different style cars, many different weight cars.
The kits are identical, bar mounting brackets and hoses- car specific.

How much would it cost to test every different car/model and then slightly change design for each model? mega bucks.


Do you really think they will produce 1000's of different sized pistons or a few?


Just my view.

[Foamy]

What a load of bollocks

AP calipers are the same size, same disc size, same pad shape on many different style cars, many different weight cars.
The kits are identical, bar mounting brackets and hoses- car specific.

How much would it cost to test every different car/model and then slightly change design for each model? mega bucks.


Do you really think they will produce 1000's of different sized pistons or a few?


Just my view.


Yes, not 1000's but a few:supz:

[mattCSLnut]

...

Alloy brackets on the fronts should ideally have steel threaded inserts and be hard anodized. Studs etc must be high tensile.

Brackets CNCed out of one solid piece of high tensile steel are the only way to make decent & reliable BBK conversion brackets :thumbs:
Anything else and you might as well be making them out of cheese ;) :hahaha: I hear Edam is quite good :whistle:

[Foamy]

Poor old Colin Chapman would turn in his grave if he read this.

[_Nathan_]

I like to think he'd thought ahead and would be spinning in his grave using lightweight bearings installed in his fibreglass coffin.

[Foamy]

I like to think he'd thought ahead and would be spinning in his grave using lightweight bearings installed in his fibreglass coffin.

Lol :thumbs:

[glendog74]

Who's Colin Chapman?

[shimmy]

Who's Colin Chapman?


Charlie's brother

[glendog74]

Charlie's brother

I thought as much - cheers Shim :thumbs:

[AlexGTT]

What a mind numbingly, useless, pathetic waste of time this thread is! :banghead: There are numerous previous threads going through all this and the choices are clear.

I did learn something new however. The Chapman brothers. Good info.:thumbs::hahaha:

[glendog74]

+1 ^^^

If only Dazza was here...!