Is it wrong to look at these?

[glendog74]

The Gen 1 997 GT3 is starting to look like great value:

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2377854.htm

:drool:

[Yanto]

TURNCOAT !!:ban:

(but yeah, see your point...)

[azrael]

To quote Jims Dad "Its a perfectly normal, natural thing"

[need4speed]

Very very wrong! :hahaha: but that particular one does look good value!

[Mark CSL]

Rob will i change the name to GT3 Register :whistle::banghead::banghead::banghead:

[AlexGTT]

In a word, no.

And stop posting things like that Rob! My will power is weakening by the day.:whistle::hahaha:

[DazBlackCSL]

Got a real dilemma at the end of this year ....

Do I go GT3 ?

Really want to BUT already have CSL and don't intend on ever letting it go when it's all paid for. a keeper.

Nice to have CSL and GT3 but really not ideal given they both address the same end result in a different way.

So is it wrong to look at these :-D

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2373582.htm

Had one for Friday's trip up to NEC with the lads, and was awesome to rock up in, does the daily thing well if not going for silly engine size and diesel and sorted for if and when clare gets her way for when the mini dazza's arrive.


Alex found the boot quite comfortable also ! :whistle: :hahaha:

[AlexGTT]

Got a real dilemma at the end of this year ....

Do I go GT3 ?

Really want to BUT already have CSL and don't intend on ever letting it go when it's all paid for. a keeper.

Nice to have CSL and GT3 but really not ideal given they both address the same end result in a different way.

So is it wrong to look at these :-D

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2373582.htm

Had one for Friday's trip up to NEC with the lads, and was awesome to rock up in, does the daily thing well if not going for silly engine size and diesel and sorted for if and when clare gets her way for when the mini dazza's arrive.


Alex found the boot quite comfortable also ! :whistle: :hahaha:

Would make perfect sense Dazza. Just make sure it's not too blinged up though.;)

And yes, the boot is surprisingly comfortable.:whistle::beer:

[glendog74]

So is it wrong to look at these :-D

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2373582.htm

Had one for Friday's trip up to NEC with the lads, and was awesome to rock up in, does the daily thing well if not going for silly engine size and diesel and sorted for if and when clare gets her way for when the mini dazza's arrive.


Alex found the boot quite comfortable also ! :whistle: :hahaha:

VERY WRONG! Lol!

They may be practical and able to carry kids/Alex(big kid) but come on Dazza?! :banghead: :hahaha:

[DuncanR]

The Gen 1 997 GT3 is starting to look like great value:
:drool: I been looking at them for ages myself !!! :whistle:

[TANKSLAPPER]

Nathan's 997 GT3 RS after 2 years of trying still can't beat me round the Ring. :thumbs:






Mine you he still can't beat me in his CSL


T$

[AlexGTT]

Nathan's 997 GT3 RS after 2 years of trying still can't beat me round the Ring. :thumbs:






Mine you he still can't beat me in his CSL


T$

:hahaha:

[s.mac]

IMO, nope on both cars, they are cracking cars and both have their own place, just not on my drive :bigcry: at least for the foreseeable

[monkeycsl]

As daz says mines a keeper, love the gt3 especially the rs but at over double the price of the csl are they twice the car, i bet not i would have a mint csl and another one for pure track work for the same price.:supz:

[Bealo]

For me best looking 911 bar none but would have to be in white :thumbs:

To close to the performance of the CSL to be worth the extra cash imo

997 GT2 is a totally different matter though :smt055


The Gen 1 997 GT3 is starting to look like great value:

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2377854.htm

:drool:

[daniel]

996 GT3 are very well priced now!

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2380842.htm
http://cdn.images.pistonheads.com/aimg/2380/2380842-1.jpg

[DazBlackCSL]

996 GT3 are very well priced now!

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2380842.htm
http://cdn.images.pistonheads.com/aimg/2380/2380842-1.jpg

That is well priced :whistle:

[shane@mbtech]

That is well priced :whistle:

Was thinking much the same. :smt055

To be fair a well driven GT3 on track should hand it to a CSL, I drove Sticky Mickeys and I was faster round Anglesey than I was in my CSL, that was manual with one arm too:whistle:

Awesome awesome cars and IMO the natural progression from the CSL.

[Yanto]

Oooooooo......

Now that is nice and good price. Bet that 8k covered during 2010 has cost him 10 grand (ish)

[glendog74]

To close to the performance of the CSL to be worth the extra cash imo


Not if you know how to drive one in 'anger'. :whistle:

A CSL flatters it's driver and makes it all reasonably easy to drive at a fair lick around a track without fear of spearing it into every barrier. :thumbs:

[northernjim]

That is well priced :whistle:

I was looking at that very car only yesterday:drool::whistle::smokin:








online of course not in the flesh:hahaha::banghead:

[shane@mbtech]

I was looking at that very car only yesterday:drool::whistle::smokin:








online of course not in the flesh:hahaha::banghead:


You are Henry through and through:birdman:,

Have you got the balls or talent for RWD Jim:blalalala::hahaha:;)

[northernjim]

You are Henry through and through:birdman:,

Have you got the balls or talent for RWD Jim:blalalala::hahaha:;)

:birdman: don't ya mean I've got too many arms:banghead:;)












you are probably right tho mate, the truth always hurts:bigcry:

[shane@mbtech]

:birdman: don't ya mean I've got too many arms:banghead:;)












you are probably right tho mate, the truth always hurts:bigcry:

You any closer to taking plunge for a CSL yet?



BTW you are only jealous cos your slow, and dont be blaming the RS;):hahaha:

[AlexGTT]

Come on Jim, stop pussy footing about and jump in the deep end mate.;)

[Steviebee]

I would love one of these.

Spent many hours looking at them falling nicely!

Called about this one, but when they only offered me 21k for the CSL I couldn't afford it.

Not had the CSL long, and after doing 300miles in it this weekend think I'll wait another year - just too good to give up so soon! Plus, just had an inspection II that I need to get some moneys worth out of :hahaha:

Stevie

[northernjim]

If the right one came up then i'd buy it, I am going to do that track day at the ring in the focus whatever tho - I should have sold it ages ago, and now its just a pit:bigcry: but I've got a lot of memories in that car so it'll be hard to say bye:gayfight:




plus it is a doddle driving the focus, its years since I've had a rwd now, and I must admit at the back of my mind I think will I just park a csl in a ditch when get one:clown::bigcry:


fook me you will all be thinking I'm soft - well you're wrong I'm just a crap driver:birdman:

[DazBlackCSL]

No No No Jimbo ... just jump in you will never look back, leave the RS love story behind and keep the photo's .. move on and dip your feet in and you'll never look back.. IT IS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME anyway as you know ;)

we are supportive of your quest and will help you along the way ... also with nights out, sugar women and beer of course :whistle:

[AlexGTT]

No No No Jimbo ... just jump in you will never look back, leave the RS love story behind and keep the photo's .. move on and dip your feet in and you'll never look back.. IT IS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME anyway as you know ;)

we are supportive of your quest and will help you along the way ... also with nights out, sugar women and beer of course :whistle:

Dazza, lifestyle consultant. :hahaha:

[glendog74]

fook me you will all be thinking I'm soft - well you're wrong I'm just a crap driver:birdman:

Yes - on both counts. :beer:

No No No Jimbo ... just jump in you will never look back, leave the RS love story behind and keep the photo's .. move on and dip your feet in and you'll never look back.. IT IS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME anyway as you know ;)

we are supportive of your quest and will help you along the way ... also with nights out, sugar women and beer of course :whistle:

+1 ^^^

Get on with it Jim you fekkin http://serve.mysmiley.net/adult/homoswitch.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net)

[DazBlackCSL]

Dazza, lifestyle consultant. :hahaha:


Gonna look into that Alex :whistle: :-D

[AlexGTT]

Gonna look into that Alex :whistle: :-D

:hahaha:;)

[northernjim]

No No No Jimbo ... just jump in you will never look back, leave the RS love story behind and keep the photo's .. move on and dip your feet in and you'll never look back.. IT IS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME anyway as you know ;)

we are supportive of your quest and will help you along the way ... also with nights out, sugar women and beer of course :whistle:
:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::smokin: I might need some serious consultation from some sugar women:beer:


Dazza, lifestyle consultant. :hahaha:

he's got the gift I think

Yes - on both counts. :beer:



+1 ^^^

Get on with it Jim you fekkin http://serve.mysmiley.net/adult/homoswitch.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net)

:birdman::smt055:gayfight:

[merell900]

I think it´s the next step.
CSL then GT3(997)
go for it:thumbs:

[Pip1968]

I have already taken the plunge with a 996 GT3 but have kept the CSL to hedge my bets. If I am really taken by it I may well go the whole hog and sell the CSL and upgrade to a GT3 RS. Or if I fall on hard times/ realise it is as everyone keeps telling me, a little impractical to have two 'hobby' cars.

The problem is where do you go after the CSL.... an e90/2 M3..... err, no... Audi RS... possibly.. Aston Martin - running costs :bigcry:

Pip

[Great Pretender]

Well, I've already done the GT3 thing - albeit not of the 997 variety.

This was my old mount:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4048/4291790698_07255cfd65_z.jpg?zz=1

Had it not been the biggest motoring disaster I've ever owned, I'd probably still have it. And while most will buy without trouble, the dealership/backup experience was the main reason I had such a nightmare. I won't bore you all with the details (and frankly I'm on treacherous ground talking about who and why on a public forum), but if anyone is interested, I'll happily oblige via PM.

Anyway, issues notwithstanding, they are simply outstanding cars and I'd probably struggle to choose a more involving machine at any price point, not just £40-50k.However, there are drawbacks.

For a start, they don't make for very good road cars IMO - even in the 'nancy' Comfort trim (mine was a Clubsport). The factory geo is neither aggressive enough or settled enough and as a result, the car feels nervous on all but the smoothest surfaces, but quickly washes into understeer if you don't use the weight balance to your advantage. This can make the car feel disconcertingly unresponsive until you get used to the notion that the car will really dig in once you scrub through the initial understeer. Once past this, its a devastating device, but with short suspension travel and a very low chin, you are limited as to where you can use all the performance - especially up here in Scotland where so many of the roads are very bumpy and badly surfaced.

On track it's a different story of course. Round Knockhill for instance it will sit up there with the 500+ bhp Evos and R500 Caterhams, but if and only if you have the geometry modified to suit; the upshot being that the car becomes even less road friendly. Swings and roundabouts I guess.

What I found most surprising/disappointing however, was their relative fragility. One would imagine that Porsche's halo product would be built to last, but if used as intended, you'll find that shocks, clutches and diff plates become consumables. Oh and you'll likely only get 2 - 3 trackdays out of a set of front discs before they crack and become unusable. Needless to say, this makes an already hugely expensive car (for me at least) an even more expensive thing to have fun in.

So, just upgrade the brakes/suspension then? Fraid not; not of you want to keep your warranty in tact. Porsche are undoubtedly worst when it comes to honouring warranties at the best of times, but if you so much as fit non N-rated tyres or fit non-Porsche brake pads, you'll find your warranty is less use than toilet paper. I'm not joking either!

Put into context then, the CSL is a very attractive proposition. No it's not as fast, not quite as involving and it doesn't look as special as the Porker, but in all honesty, I'd say a good one offers at least 80% of that served up by the GT3 for 50% of the price. Moreover, the CSL is arguably a better road car and is certainly more 'playful' on track, allowing you to have a bit of fun where the Porsche is almost too grippy. At least that's my thoughts; others will have different views of course. Of course a CSL fitted with decent brakes and suspension will be a very different beast indeed...

The clincher for me however, was the much more relaxed and realistic BMW warranty, which seems to cast a blind eye to track use and will allow modification to the brakes/suspension without voiding the warranty. It's this back-up that really matters to me. Porsche take note.

So in summary, I do miss my GT3 (problems notwithstanding), but I don't miss the draconian warranty - Porsche won't officially allow you to take your rollcage-equipped, fire extinguisher fitted and Cup shod GT3 on track -, fragility and truculent on-road behaviour.

Also, now the GT3 is two generations old, it's roughly four times as common as the CSL :thumbs:

Sorry for the long, rambling post. Just felt some of you might want to hear it from the horses mouth, rather than the Porsche fanboy wankers who'll tell you there is simply no better car on the face of the planet.

:)

[Yanto]

Thx for posting that Simon - interesting perspective :thumbs:

[glendog74]

Thx for posting that Simon - interesting perspective :thumbs:

+1 :thumbs:

[sailorbaz]

Excellent post Simon.

I've been thinking about the GT3 route for a while, but always cast my mind back to the day my Mate took me out in a 996 (or was it a 997?) C4S. I remember the top end howl it gave, and the way it would go round corners but I also remember the various wanker signs we got, and we weren't even out in it that long. I mean, 5 miles maybe. The looks we were getting from both envious and jealous people was amazing and have never had the likes in 5 years of CSL ownership.

Still loved it though, cracking car.

[TANKSLAPPER]

Good post Simon. :thumbs:

Take note Bounce lol :hahaha::hahaha:

T$

[DazBlackCSL]

very good post I remember thorney telling me to buy a CSL a few years ago, as I was looking at GT3's at the time to replace my M3, so glad I listened and went the CSL route, and this just backs that up :thumbs:

[need4speed]

Excellent post, very informative; thanks for sharing. :smt023

[jibm]

yes very good post, i know i get the calling to the darkside every now and then! finely quenched for now thank you :thumbs:

i was chatting to a friend of a friend the other day who did the CSL to 996GT3 RS jump, he recon's it cost him 4 grand a track day :119::119:

[Great Pretender]

Excellent post Simon.

I've been thinking about the GT3 route for a while, but always cast my mind back to the day my Mate took me out in a 996 (or was it a 997?) C4S. I remember the top end howl it gave, and the way it would go round corners but I also remember the various wanker signs we got, and we weren't even out in it that long. I mean, 5 miles maybe. The looks we were getting from both envious and jealous people was amazing and have never had the likes in 5 years of CSL ownership.

Still loved it though, cracking car.

Ah the howl...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/39783697@N05/4445764624/
(please excuse dodgy camerawerk. Vid was taken to capture the sound rather than anything else.)

The noise that thing made at 8200rpm still gives me goosebumps, but equally I could (and frequently do!) listen to recordings of the CSL at full bifter all day. Both sound glorious in their own way.

I can relate to the wanker thing though. Some of the driving I witnessed as people would duck and weave in a desperate attempt to try and get ahead of me in motorway traffic, or the sheer disgust from 'fellow' motorists if I dared make an overtake, was horrific. Generally, most gave the car a favourable reception, but the aggro I got from some for no apparent reason did irk a little. I remember parking the car at Sainsburys once and as I got out, I was approached by an angrly looking little man who shouted something at me from afar, but then when he got closer, he'd apparently forgotten what he wanted to say and instead just called me a c**t! :hahaha: It was easily a car that would one day inevitably get keyed if left unattended for long enough. Curiously though, in something like silver, or grey, they look distinctly average IMO.

The C4S is a brilliant car and probably a far better road car than the GT3. My old man had one in Lapis blue and it was a stunning looking thing. Very quick too, given the modest 316bhp. I still quite fancy the idea of one but the CSL is a better car in every respect, so stick with it I say.

[Great Pretender]

very good post I remember thorney telling me to buy a CSL a few years ago, as I was looking at GT3's at the time to replace my M3, so glad I listened and went the CSL route, and this just backs that up :thumbs:

Well I've not tracked mine enough to say for sure, but judging by some of the posts on here, the CSL seems to hold up to track (ab)use far better, despite concerns over the SMG's fragility.

After I sold it, I discovered that the Porker had led a hard life (mostly on track) and even at 28k miles it was showing signs of wear, that you wouldn't expect given it's remit.

[Great Pretender]

yes very good post, i know i get the calling to the darkside every now and then! finely quenched for now thank you :thumbs:

i was chatting to a friend of a friend the other day who did the CSL to 996GT3 RS jump, he recon's it cost him 4 grand a track day :119::119:

I can well believe it.

Tyre's and brakes could last as little as one session if used hard enough; shocks and clutch as little as one track season.

For instance, my car was on its fourth clutch by 24k miles...

[glendog74]

I think bang per buck the CSL is top value and day-to-day running costs are even reasonable considering it's performance potential.

Even if you track a CSL, it is still not prohibitively expensive and rarely needs more than brake pads/discs and tyres occasionally, as well as fuel of course.

Whilst 996 GT3s and even some cheaper 997 GT3s are now within my financial reach, i think the running costs would prove horrendous if i were to do with it what i do currently with my CSL.

I still plan to have one one day - maybe in 5 years from now but it would be kept off the road a fair bit and used only for fun. Then again, the CSL might be a full-on track car by then so i would have no need for a Porka!

:smokin:

[Great Pretender]

I think bang per buck the CSL is top value and day-to-day running costs are even reasonable considering it's performance potential.

Even if you track a CSL, it is still not prohibitively expensive and rarely needs more than brake pads/discs and tyres occasionally, as well as fuel of course.

Whilst 996 GT3s and even some cheaper 997 GT3s are now within my financial reach, i think the running costs would prove horrendous if i were to do with it what i do currently with my CSL.

I still plan to have one one day - maybe in 5 years from now but it would be kept off the road a fair bit and used only for fun. Then again, the CSL might be a full-on track car by then so i would have no need for a Porka!

:smokin:

I think you're right.

You can of course upgrade the suspension and fit proper discs that aren't made from chocolate, but GT3's appetite for clutches and diff plates is still shocking.

Ultimately the Porker will be that bit better on track, but unless the associated running costs can be considered as pocket change, then it's not worth it IMO.

My only regret is not buying the CSL first. Then I wouldn't have suffered the epic wallet raping that the Porker gave me.

[monkeycsl]

4 years on and still loving my csl only tempted by a viper green gt3 rs but sod the expense so csl forever for me :thumbs:

[Pip1968]

Yes very interesting read and thank you. I am no expert but will only comment that you obviously had a bad experience with Porsche GB and reading in between the lines a lot of it was due to warranty issues. Depreciation in all fairness will be experienced by anyone wealthy enough to be able to afford a new car. What was the GT3 new, £85,000 and they are now at around £40-45,000 but then the CSL has also suffered a ~50% hit on price. you mention brakes which again are one of the 'weaknesses' of the CSL so most have upgraded to improve their track performance. That only really leaves the differential and clutch. I hope that you were just unlucky with these but will start saving anyway.

Of course I may have misunderstood your post but am sure you will be quick to correct me.

Either way I am giving it a go and will post on here my findings in a year or so.

They are a more expensive car and as I am taking my first plunge into Porsche I am not really qualified to comment too much. Moreover from what I understand GT3s are equally rare. I would have to Google it for sure but think that similarly small numbers were produced.

Pip

[Pip1968]

4 years on and still loving my csl only tempted by a viper green gt3 rs but sod the expense so csl forever for me :thumbs:

I have to say Monkey I am with you on the Porsche colours. I love the orange RS and the newer grey/red RSs and have bought a GT3 in Riviera Blue. I am not so keen on the green but still a fabulous colour.

Pip

[northernjim]

Well, I've already done the GT3 thing - albeit not of the 997 variety.

This was my old mount:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4048/4291790698_07255cfd65_z.jpg?zz=1



:)

That backdrop looks awfully like skye to me???

some fantastic roads up that way:beer:

[Steviebee]

Thanks for that Simon.

I came from a 996tt to the CSL as I was looking for a bit more 'excitement' from a car, not to mention noise asthe 996tt had almost none.

As much as I am enjoying the CSL, I have always kept an eye on 997 GT3 prices with a view to having one in the next couple of years.

As much as I'm not a track master (3 - 5 trackdays per year), you have really gave me something to think about with regard to running costs and also their inability to handle our Scottish roads. The CSL, whilst stiff seems to cope with them pretty well, yet is a blast on trackdays.

From what I've read looks like I might be keeping a hold of the BM for a good while longer until that Porsche deposit is a fair bit bigger to help with keeping the think going!

The 996tt overall wasn't hard on the wallet, far from it tbh. OPC warranty was excellent too imo, though my car was 100% std which was a pain as they have so much potential !

Anyway - thanks again. Probably one of the most helpful GT3 posts I've read to date.

Stevie

[toofastforyou]

hi all

csl vs 997 gt3

interesting debate. obviously if both are driven by drivers of equal talent the gt3 will be faster. however, after having tried the porsche route MANY times, imho i just cant get to grips with the rr setup. tbh i just dont like it. the way the front bobs up and down it lacks the composure and balance of the csl (i know if one delves deep enough you will find unparalleled levels of grip), for me anyway.

my thoughts about porsche were echoed when my mate who was racing the dbrs9 (he was actually gt3 champion) decided to race a gt2 rsr. he too couldnt get to grips with the rr setup and found it difficult to push it to the limits. it took him more than a year of driving the thing to really understand it and be able to push it to the limits required in racing.

imo, i would rent a gt3 take it to the track and have a blast in it. see if you are suited to the porsche rr setup, before you buy one. but for the money for the gt3 i would rather buy 2 csls, one that i would use for everyday road use, and one that i would strip down to circa 1200/1250kg and tune to around 410bhp, a real track day warrior which i think would give even the gt3 rs a real run for its money. just my 2 cents worth.

[s.mac]

good read

[Bealo]

Shame you don't then really isn't it... :thumbs: I've never been embarressed by one on track

Not if you know how to drive one in 'anger'. :whistle:

A CSL flatters it's driver and makes it all reasonably easy to drive at a fair lick around a track without fear of spearing it into every barrier. :thumbs:

[glendog74]

Shame you don't then really isn't it... :thumbs: I've never been embarressed by one on track

I wasn't implying by me... :birdman: