CSL suspension improvements

[bryce]

So.. I nearly sold my CSL yesterday because Im never using it, but I bottled it because I love it too much and dont know what Id replace it with.

Maint reason for not using is the uncomfy suspension. I put kw v3s on it about 2 years ago, and despite it looking amazingly aggressive and nice and tight in the corners its like a bloody go kart. If I slacken the susp. off a bit it turns it a bit too 'boaty' and floaty.

Now Im thinking, rather than getting rid for that reason - Im prepared to spend a bit more ££ on a decent set up as I dont want to go back to standard ride height but keep the pointy sharp handling - even if its just the same as stock handling.

Been a long time since Ive been on here, so not sure what options / new options are available. Last I knew there was the Intrax thats meant to be the dogs - but how is it comfort wise or am I buying the same as what Ive already got just a bit more expensive. Any other options much appreciated.

Cheers lads
Bryce

ps. I'll be going camber plates to keep a better camber and probably just standard geo. I dont drive fast enough to need fast road.

[sailorbaz]

Long time no see right enough Bryce, good to see you back on and giving in to the temptation of selling her.

I can't wait to stick some decent suspension on mine, having had it for over 4 years now I think it's long overdue. Will have to put some pennies away for it though.

I agree with the ride height on yours compared to mine (standard) for sure, at Moffat that year, yours looked more aggressive. Many miles are on it now, you into 5 figures yet? lol

[J13NY S]

Last I knew there was the Intrax thats meant to be the dogs - but how is it comfort wise or am I buying the same as what Ive already got just a bit more expensive.

That was one of the things I liked about the Intrax, its ride didn’t feel that different to standard.

[DazBlackCSL]

V3 are no different to STD like intrax if set up for that purpose .. Set them up properly

[titan]

V3 are no different to STD like intrax if set up for that purpose .. Set them up properly

What he said.

Although - to be fair - assuming the quality and internal friction of KW/Intrax to be the same, it depends what spring rates they come with. If you ask simpsons for the race spring setup on intrax, then they won't suit road/nurburgring, so its still possible to "sod it up" ;-)

Although I have no experience myself, I've heard from a few different people the advice of avoiding KW Clubsport and instead stick to the V3s because the clubsports use stiffer springs and become a bit harsh.

Basically its all one big compromise along the way. A dampers job is just to control the spring, but its the choice of spring rate which is all important. In an ideal world you've had one set of springs for road, another for track etc but its all starting to sound very "race team" - so instead people plump for a middle of the road spring and then just adjust damping to suit conditions.

when hooning around a long corner, the body roll you get is all to do with spring rate (and arb) and nowt to do with dampers. Dampers are just changing turn in characteristics and bump/rebound.

Would say thats my tuppence, turned into more like £2 ;-)

[glendog74]

V3 are no different to STD like intrax if set up for that purpose .. Set them up properly

+1


Although I have no experience myself, I've heard from a few different people the advice of avoiding KW Clubsport and instead stick to the V3s because the clubsports use stiffer springs and become a bit harsh.

Basically its all one big compromise along the way.

And that sums up suspension - a compromise. Problem is, many people like Bryce want their cake and eat it too, i.e. soft and comfortable when cruising - stiff and controlled when going for it. Sadly you cannot really have both (except with modern EDC systems?).

I would much rather have the latter in my CSL on track so i use KW Clubsport, and i'm prepared to accept a slightly stiffer ride than OEM on road.
:smokin:

[M5 Powered]

Why not consider going back to the standard oem setup, assuming you still have the struts and springs?

Best

Jonathan

[daniel]

PSS10 are a softer setup than V3 imo. They feel a lot less aggressive.

[bryce]

Thanks for the 'expert' replies everyone. Still no real solution though... :(

V3 are no different to STD like intrax if set up for that purpose .. Set them up properly

How you got yours set Daz? I have tried fidling with the bump and rebound setting but cant seem to find a happy medium like standard.

That was one of the things I liked about the Intrax, its ride didn’t feel that different to standard.

Comfort and control wise? Any experience with other susp to compare?

I agree with the ride height on yours compared to mine (standard) for sure, at Moffat that year, yours looked more aggressive. Many miles are on it now, you into 5 figures yet? lol

I lovvvve :smt055 the way mine sits baz. Cars done 900 miles this year! What a waste :( hence the hasty sale and now solution looking.

And that sums up suspension - a compromise. Problem is, many people like Bryce want their cake and eat it too, i.e. soft and comfortable when cruising - stiff and controlled when going for it. Sadly you cannot really have both (except with modern EDC systems?).

Im not looking for a track set up car than rides like an S class. Just standard comfort with a low ride height.

Why not consider going back to the standard oem setup, assuming you still have the struts and springs?

Still got the old suspension but I think it sits the car too high.

PSS10 are a softer setup than V3 imo. They feel a lot less aggressive.

How are they for handling wise? Any experience on a CSL.

[s.mac]

I would speak to kw about a different spring rate, Im sure they will advise.
I run AST and there are loads of options for spring to suit what you are looking for :)

[bryce]

I would speak to kw about a different spring rate, Im sure they will advise.
I run AST and there are loads of options for spring to suit what you are looking for :)

Good point s.mac.

More interestingly though, I just checked out the AST's your talking about and in the description "They guarantee a comfortable ride".

Im pressuming youve got the sportline II. Much cost and why'd you buy?

[s.mac]

I went for AST as it wasn't full coilover at the rear, they also got good reviews when I asked about, I did ask about different spring rates but went for the standard ones with the kit. Steve Gill gave me a few options but I thought they were too much for road and track
Yes it is the sportline II and on full soft I would say they are OEM standard, full hard is way too much for road though, very easy to change!!
I got them from balance motorsport, I'm guessing £1600 to £1800 plus vat, I would need to check.
Im sure Daz changed his springs earlier this year and they made a difference.

[titan]

Don't go moaning about 'expert' replies and then be harping on about how you love the way it looks !! What do you want to do, look at your car or drive the thing?

Your question has been answered. You've got a kit, have a look what spring rates you are running, phone KW and get some softer ones.

FWIW I'm going to give intrax 1k2 a try. My reason has nothing to do with the quality of the kit (and my evo has a very pricey KW custom 3-way comp setup) - my reasoning is that you need to speak to someone who has had tonnes of experience and just knows what works.

When I spoke to simpsons they offered 3 different sets of springs - soft for road, very stiff for uk track/race, or somewhere in the middle which would suit the 'ring.

Conversely KW will be able to offer little advice for uk road or track because thats not their thing.

[bryce]

Thanks smac. So on full soft they take bumps and pot holes well but still handle like standard? Just checked price. £1900inc vodka and tonic

[bryce]

Don't go moaning about 'expert' replies and then be harping on about how you love the way it looks !! What do you want to do, look at your car or drive the thing?

Your question has been answered. You've got a kit, have a look what spring rates you are running, phone KW and get some softer ones.

easy now. By 'expert' I mean Joe Bloggs with a real opinion rather that the actual Expert who's trying to sell me something. And there was no solution offered until smac come along.

Why wont kw be able to offer much?

[titan]

KW's uk presence is a box-shifting outfit, all of the expertise is in germany. So (I'm assuming your requirement is predominantly road) they won't have much experience in what you are asking for.

Its a shame ohlins don't do a "road and track" kit for the E46. That would be great and cheap as its off-the-shelf.

Best kit I ever had for road was from exe-tc. Top single adjusters, fantastic quality, could be made far softer than OEM or pretty firm. shame they don't do e46 either.

if you're looking to get something else, no-one has complained about intrax and simpsons seem to really know what they are doing. If you want to fix the issue without big spend, get softer springs.

[bryce]

thank you titan, i like to play nice.

the car will probably never be around a track (cos Im a shitebag) so entirely for road use.

I could put the std susp back on and cut the springs with my 9" grinder, then Id still have the comfort... Or put some weights in the boot :-/

[s.mac]

Its a shame ohlins don't do a "road and track" kit for the E46. That would be great and cheap as its off-the-shelf.

are you serious ?

So on full soft they take bumps and pot holes well but still handle like standard?
yes, but I need to drop the front as it is too high at the moment

I wouldn't change your set up! get another set of springs !

[bryce]

I bought them from Thorney, hopefully they'll chime in with info on springs. Though I believe they no longer deal with kw.

[shane@mbtech]

Why not just "soften" the damping on yours.

When I sold my CSL, my mate who bought it isnt as hardcore as me and probably wont go on track, its his daily drive as well vs me just using it as a weekend blaster/track car.

I softened both the bump and rebound and it drives spot on, very, very similar to OEM,

I drove it other day and for road use it was fine, would be a little too soft for track work mind.

Its running KW clubsport too.

[s.mac]

Lawsy is right with that, I dont change my springs for a softer ride :)

Daz should be able to give you a number to call for advice on springs, if you have a track rate you really do want to look at changing for a softer spring rate ;)

[titan]

are you serious ?

yeah, ohlins have this product series called "road and track" which is an off-the-shelf kit. Specified by Ohlins in Sweden, made in Taiwan to lower costs. Its about the same cost as intrax 1k2.

[glendog74]

Daz should be able to give you a number to call for advice on springs, if you have a track rate you really do want to look at changing for a softer spring rate ;)

Try KW UK:

KW Automotive UK Ltd.
Willow Tree House
Bromley Green Road
Upper Ruckinge
Ashford Kent TN26 2EQ

Phone: 0870 990 7536

http://www.kw-suspensions.co.uk/uk/index.php

[DuncanR]

and i'm prepared to accept a slightly stiffer ride
:smokin:

With your boat race Rob you should be grateful for any ride going ! :hahaha:

WB Bryce I have Intrax, but would say stay with what you have tbh, as others on here more experienced then I have indicated. Just had my Intrax refurbed and would say to anyone else running them, keep them greased up, if steel tubes WD40 then after each use...

[Thorney]

I think the reason there are so many 'experts' on suspension is that there is no such thing as the 'right' set up, only the right set up for you, end of the day its your car and you know what you want the car to do and that is likely to be different to the next guy. The issue gets worse when you consider that most people really have no idea how to communicate what they want the car to do or the problems that they feel they have. This applies to 90% of race car drivers too, most people lack the experience to communicate the problem well and even less to extrapolate that problem into a setup change to fix it. We now spend a larger and larger amount of time advising people on how to set up track/race cars, spending £x on shiny kit is about 10% of the answer.

To get to the question. One of the reason we dropped KW was partly due to the fact that Germany had all the skill on set ups but none in the UK or on UK circuits which are different to Euro tracks by and large. However Bryce has touched on the adjustment issues he's had and these are typical on the KW shocks (3 way or Clubsport) in that they adjust via a simple roller bearing valve system. THis means that you need to make very large movements in the valving to get differences in the damping and this damping adjustment is very finite. In short this means you really have two settings - too hard and too soft and very little in between. Compare the design to a monotube type adjustment - AST, Intrax, Nitron, Moton the adjustment is very different and allows far greater variance. Over the years we've been through every suspension supplier and they all have something to offer. We've now settled on Moton for road and track and Bilstein for road and some track and are happy with them. If I had my way we'd only really supply Moton but they aren't cheap so I have to offer an alternative which we do in Nitron and Bilstein.

With KW a spring change maybe the way forward but it needs a lot more detail on what is happening than a forum post, for example Bryce says thats it too bouncy when soft well that suggests the rebound needs stiffening up, simple job but on the KW shock he may notice little difference due to the adjustment set up as described.

Buying suspension is the start of the process not the end but as long as you are able to analyse the issues and communicate them to your chosen supplier you will be able to get the most out of them, 90% of handling issues can be reslolved with set up, the other 10% needs better suspension, its worth keeping that ratio in mind.

[DazBlackCSL]

Wrong number you muppett :hahaha:

No wonder no-one can get through !!

01233 733068



Try KW UK:

KW Automotive UK Ltd.
Willow Tree House
Bromley Green Road
Upper Ruckinge
Ashford Kent TN26 2EQ

Phone: 0870 990 7536

http://www.kw-suspensions.co.uk/uk/index.php

[glendog74]

Wrong number you muppett :hahaha:

No wonder no-one can get through !!

01233 733068

Cut and pasted from the website... Change required methinks! :whistle:

[DazBlackCSL]

Cut and pasted from the website... Change required methinks! :whistle:

They are heading back from the MPH show me thinks, ( saw them there this weekend ) so probably a little thin on the ground this morning as I think they were heading back this morning ;)

Sure you'll get all the help and set up advice you need when you do get hold of them, and there are also dealers that have KW experience here in the UK :thumbs:

Been happy with both my V3's and now clubsport, the latter I played and tweaked around with for a while, including dropping a spring rate ( softer spring ) till I found a happy medium, im a lazy coont and can not be arse with all the fiddling around so want something that just does both about right.
:beer:

[DazBlackCSL]

Buying suspension is the start of the process not the end but as long as you are able to analyse the issues and communicate them to your chosen supplier you will be able to get the most out of them, 90% of handling issues can be reslolved with set up, the other 10% needs better suspension, its worth keeping that ratio in mind.

That is a spot on summary :thumbs: +1

FYI the best set up to date I had for road ( occ track ) was on my V3 kit at TMS, was an awesome set up they did with full geo and testing.

[J13NY S]

Comfort and control wise? Any experience with other susp to compare?

When I got a run in a car with Intrax I thought it was a good compromise, never get the cake & eat it scenario but close.

Intrax is the only suspension I’ve had in my CSL & I’ve no real experience with suspension set up but like everything else in life I believe in leaving it in the hands of those with the experience.

When I spoke to Simpsons they asked me what I intended using the car for & they’d set it up accordingly.

In my business we continually tell people there is more to buying something than just the product itself, set up & back up are two things that are all to often over looked. We regularly get people saying I bought this & it doesn’t seem to be working properly, normally it’s a case of I bought this on the net & I don’t know what to do with it!

[titan]

Ordered some goodies from simpsons today - stainless 1k2 appears in the list :-)

[Dan]

What are you doing about the rear turrets seeing as you've gone for Intrax?

[titan]

Apparently not an issue. They said that only about 2 cars had ever experienced any problems.

I am putting in a safety devices rear cage though and this braces up the top of the turrets so can only help I guess.

[_Nathan_]

I agree that it isn't a big issue and ran Intrax on my car with no other bracing for some time, in your shoes I'd get the Z3 enforcement plates stuck on at the time they are fitted though as a cheap piece of mind (unless the SD cage actually bolts to the top of the turrets? in which case it'll do exactly the same thing).

[shimmy]

I agree that it isn't a big issue and ran Intrax on my car with no other bracing for some time, in your shoes I'd get the Z3 enforcement plates stuck on at the time they are fitted though as a cheap piece of mind (unless the SD cage actually bolts to the top of the turrets? in which case it'll do exactly the same thing).


top of turrets and diff mounting points, nice little mod the SD rear brace!

If it didnt need welding ive had done it. Glad i didnt as getting £6k of BMW goodwill fixing my rear subframe would have been a bitch to miss!

[s.mac]

yeah, ohlins have this product series called "road and track" which is an off-the-shelf kit. Specified by Ohlins in Sweden, made in Taiwan to lower costs. Its about the same cost as intrax 1k2.

suprised they have a cheaper set up, live and learn :)