running slicks with 18's ????

[_Nathan_]

Aps fit under 18s fine, assume you have am suspension already?

[alexk]

I am running M3 E46 18" with Dunlop slicks.
All rims are 9J and I have wider rear slicks (rears are 240 and fronts 210).
They can fit in the AP brakes (and I have the CP5555 calipers with 18mm thick pads // my front rims are 9J).

I run them with OEM suspension.
I am VERY HAPPY with them. The grip is phenomenal.
I don't see any problem in the car.

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7679/img00112201006091359.jpg


http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/2794/cslspa.jpg

[shimmy]

Why are you running slicks

Speed

Cost

???

[alexk]

Why are you running slicks

Speed

Cost

???


In the bike I used to run slicks all the time (road use too).
As you know shimmy (you helped with the transfer :thumbs:) I got the slicks for the car in a good deal.
The traction is so much better compared with the cups so why not to use them ?

[daniel]

Or you can buy 4 x rear 18" bmw wheels, as per AlexK, for around 200:thumbs:. There are other sticky options to consider that are a lot cheaper than cups and maybe safer than slicks.

Thanks for the reply! definitely answered my question

The grip is really good, but the issue is the cost of cups all the time.

I know someone who bought ten sets of slicks, used, with loads of grip for £300 off ebay. they were 18's, and i think were also Dunlop

£1200 for one set of cups seems a little excessive to me. ive just worn mine, i think a change to slicks would be a good idea.

You can buy a brand new set of 18'' super lightweight rota wheels for £800

[alexk]

Or you can buy 4 x rear 18" bmw wheels, as per AlexK, for around 200:thumbs:. There are other sticky options to consider that are a lot cheaper than cups and maybe safer than slicks.

Yeap you can get good deals for 18" bmw wheels.
I am not sure why you say that slicks are unsafe ?
Have you tried slicks ?

[shimmy]

My take on slicks are like this.

Cheap worn used slicks are good value but probably not any quicker than new Cups. New Cups will on a good set up probably last around 5-6 proper trackdays so cost say £200 per trackday, without discount. Used worm slicks will probably run 2-3 trackdays max be costing say £100-£120 a track day

My 18 inch Cups cost me closer to £800 and Kuhmo are similar and on square set up will likely last 8 trackdays and cost around £100 per TD.

You can't run slicks on road so you have to lump around 4 wheels to every trackday which is a real faff. You can't run Geo for slicks and road at the same time so you'll never get the best out if slicks on a road car.

I've always said thatci wouldn't run slicks without cage for many reasons.

[alexk]

8 full day trackdays for a set of cups isn't it a bit optimistic ?
I don't have the experience that you have shimmy (having only bought 2 set of cups up to now) but I find it a bit difficult.

Some colleagues were explaining me that they are supporting slicks+cage for safety reason, but personally I am not getting paid to race my roadcar, I am just a hobbyist having fun.

[shimmy]

8 full day trackdays for a set of cups isn't it a bit optimistic ?
I don't have the experience that you have shimmy (having only bought 2 set of cups up to now) but I find it a bit difficult.

Some colleagues were explaining me that they are supporting slicks+cage for safety reason, but personally I am not getting paid to race my roadcar, I am just a hobbyist having fun.

I think if you run slicks for cost savings then that makes sense as 4-6 TD for Cups is what I used to do. Better geo and understanding of pressure and temperature effects helps you to maximise this, stiff coilovers helps again and square set up allows an extra 2 by swapping front and rear Tyres. My 18 inch Cups did the 8 2010 trackdays for me and are no longer road legal but gave not worn to canvas anywhere yet so could still be used.

[Thorney]

Funnily enough I was talking to a guy on Saturday at Bedford about slicks on his M3 so may as well repeat the advice here.

Identify the reason why you want slicks, is it pace, fun, cost or all of it. There are positives and downsides though.

Positives
1. Fun, slicks are fun, more fun and lateral grip than any cup or cut road tyre.
2. Cost, part worns are relatively cheap and available (this will likely get better as BTCC move to 18" rims)
3. Saves wear on normal road tyres from track work
4.18" rims handle better in track

Downsides
1. Set up, to use a slick on an M3 you need min 4 degrees of camber to make full use of them, otherwise you will just wear them out quicker and compromise the handling rpbably where Shimmy gets the comment that they are no faster than cups, he's right, with 2.5 degrees front camber a front slick will overheat in 2 Laps, get greasy and slow you down). If you look at Alex picture you can see the tyre pick up on the inside edge of the tyre - too little camber.
2. Wear on the car, slicks have 40% more lateral grip than road tyres, that stress goes through the chassis so bushes, suspension mounts will all wear more, this includes the chassis, there's no evidence that slicks will damage the chassis but I would certainly be checking subframe mounts etc more often if I ran them on a road car.

There's no right or wrong on using them, simply personal choice of how to get the best out of your car on track, however what slicks are doing is offering more tyre grip rather than mechanical grip that things like suspension etc offer so compare a car with decent suspension on cups with a car on stock suspension on slicks I'd be interested to see which was quicker.

[Thorney]

Sorry, can't edit post on iPad easily, forgot to mention on set up it also depends on spring rates, OEM springs will be too soft so the car will roll more doling the car onto the outside of the tyres, this heats them up, drops their grip and wears them out.

Also be wary about buying part worns, most people have no idea how to look at a slick to determine its life, there are wear indicators but these are only indicative, most slicks lose about 30% of their grip after 5 heat cycles.

That said, I've got about 10 sets of part worns for CSL cup cars that happy to sell for £100 a set :)

[DuncanR]

Thx for that input JT, as you know, Im looking to "try" a set out ... just for the hell of it really ... I also wouldnt be doing it without a cage though, as per Shims statement. All i need is some kindly person to let me have a part worn set to complete the exercise whilst I still have a set of empty 18"TD rims to bang them on !:whistle:... good point about the BTCC and the possibility of more availability.

[alexk]

1. Set up, to use a slick on an M3 you need min 4 degrees of camber to make full use of them, otherwise you will just wear them out quicker and compromise the handling rpbably where Shimmy gets the comment that they are no faster than cups, he's right, with 2.5 degrees front camber a front slick will overheat in 2 Laps, get greasy and slow you down). If you look at Alex picture you can see the tyre pick up on the inside edge of the tyre - too little camber.
2. Wear on the car, slicks have 40% more lateral grip than road tyres, that stress goes through the chassis so bushes, suspension mounts will all wear more, this includes the chassis, there's no evidence that slicks will damage the chassis but I would certainly be checking subframe mounts etc more often if I ran them on a road car.


JT thanks for the input as a start.
I think most points are correct, however I want to comment on some things.

The pick up of rubber in my slicks in the photo is from a cool down lap in Spa, full right where is was full of rubber from other cars and I picked everything inside (because my car has camber so in the straight line the inner part of the tyre is applying more pressure on the tarmac).
The extra camber has to do with the driving style + speed.
If your driving style is different (and possibly speed) you might not benefit from excessive camber.
If you see the condition of my cup tyres after 18k road kilometers, 22 laps in Nordschleife, 2 track days in France and drifting in CH, GR and the racetrack, you won't believe it !
I can take some pictures and there you can see that my 'stock' camber (max setting btw) is fine. I don't have uneven tyre wear.
So in a similar way my slicks don't have uneven wear (when I corner the tyre it has a 90 degree angle) so I that case I am not sure how extra camber would help me.

You could say that I am captain slow but I don't think so.
In the French track I could lap 1.32 in my slicks in the wet (backing off 2 fast corners not to have an exit with 180km/h). The 1.29 is feasible AFAIC.
Doing 30 minute sessions I didn't see any degradation of grip nor my tyres became greasy.
What I noticed is that my brakes became EXTREMELY hot, which is justified by the extra grip of the slicks.
And this is a track that an aftermarket suspension would make a difference because it has a lot of tight corners.
It was also interesting to see that a Nissan GTR tuned, with semi-slicks and wheels and suspension and gay-4-wheel-drive wasn't faster than me in the corners (I will say again the tarmac was wet).
I can also quote some other laptimes in the same track in the DRY.
M coupe with michelin slicks, racing suspension, cage, exhausts etc. 1.35
997 GT3 RS with semi-slicks 1.31

Would a CSL with roll-cage, suspension, geo on slicks would be much faster than me ?
100% YES !
But I am a hobbyist so I am happy with what I achieve while having fun and not taking it too seriously (I respect that others see it differently though).

[shimmy]

Alex, i dont think John was having a go!

I think the point being if it is speed you are after with slicks then where slicks get alot of their speed from is running with firm springs, rigid caged car, and the right geo.

I spent alot of time with Dontdobends who was running his m3 race car and previously his CSL on used slicks and i think Johns conclusion was that on a non race car (or non set up race car) used slicks were more or less comparable to new Cups for outright pace, maybe with a slight advantage with slicks if you have a/m suspension

id love to give slicks a go tbh, and maybe next year i might break my rule and run some somewhere or i may have to just wait fior a race drive:smokin:

[DuncanR]

id love to give slicks a go tbh, and maybe next year i might break my rule and run some somewhere or i may have to just wait fior a race drive:smokin:

You get the slicks mate ... and I will supply the car !! seeemple !!!!:thumbs:

Lets make it at Bedford tho shall us ? .. just in case !!

[shimmy]

You get the slicks mate ... and I will supply the car !! seeemple !!!!:thumbs:

Lets make it at Bedford tho shall us ? .. just in case !!

gOOD IDEA, MAYBE WE SHOULD DO IT FOR THE CSL Challenge day at Bedford next spring

:thumbs:

[shimmy]

Hi,

Im looking at dropping down a rim size so i can run slicks on my CSL.

Been looking into it and im worried that my AP brakes fitted on the front will hit the inner rim.

Does anyone know whether they will? as i don't want to buy find out the hard way!

Also has anyone run any slicks, what are they like etc...any recommendations

Thanks

back to your question!

most 18 inch rims should be fine with APs, just check you have Cp5575 front kit and not CP5555 which are slightly bigger callipers, CP5575 was specialy modified to fit under OEM 18 M3 inch rims.

[DuncanR]

back to your question!

most 18 inch rims should be fine with APs, just check you have Cp5575 front kit and not CP5555 which are slightly bigger callipers,
Alexk is using CP5555 :clown:

[Thorney]

I didn't think I was having a go at anyone? However I wasn't really referring to pick up, I was thinking more of the tyre wear around that, I wasn't referring to your car as anything other than an example, sorry if you took that as negative, it was not intended that way. My point was that running slicks works up to a point and that it was not completely without some risk (which is negated by checking the car) that's all but it was an option when wanting to have more fun on track.

As for laptimes and comparing to other cars on track, well that's not something I do, for a start 90% of a lap time is the driver, always has, always will so I never compare car to car on track as its moot. Unless of course it's racing and that is more than times, its who finishes ahead, not an attitude I think would go down well on a track day!

Running slicks does add fun, but if the desire is to be faster then there are other ways of doing it, thats not to say running slicks is wrong, far from it, just one option when looking for faster times. Thats all I was trying to get across.

[titan]

As some of you know, I've a mentalist race-prepped evo. That runs 285 profile DZ03 rubber at each corner.

I don't run slicks. And I'll tell you why by way of an example.

When I was at snetterton last in the evo a fellow northlooper was out in a GT3 on cups. He was going round Corham as fast as his level of grip would allow. He came and saw me later to tell me that I went around the outside of him like he wasn't trying.

Stick slicks on and you'll go faster still.

And therein lies the issue. When you do come off you'll be doing god-only-knows how much extra speed than you were before. Fine if its a track with a load of run off (but I still reckon you'll end up in the tyres) but I enjoy trackdays at the ring. Not quite the run-off area you need ;-)

The other issue is that these cars weren't designed to run with that level of grip. Wheel bearings, strut towers, suspension, even the chassis will be asked to do stuff it wasn't designed for. I haven't had the experience of a wheel bearing breaking mid-corner but I can't see it being a cheap one.

My last trackday was the first trackday I've done in the CSL, sitting on smaller-profile-than-specified contis. UB was there with his R888. And he was tramping round far faster than I with barely a glimmer from his DSC light. Me? I had the DSC off and was having the time of my life. Yes I spun on one attempt to set a new drift record ;-) , but at the speeds I was doing, it was a non-issue.

I want to learn how to drive and control a RWD car properly and I don't see that happening with slicks. I'd be back where I was with the evo, tramping around but ultimately not learning much.

Ultimately we all have different reasons for trackdays so I'm not judging. If you want to blast around (and timing suggests you do!) then go for it.

I did just buy a set of cups for the CSL 19" so it sounds a bit hypocritcal, but I'm waiting on some TD 18" where I'll run Federals or something. The cups were just to have a set of CSL wheels with the specified tyres on them :-)

[alexk]

I didn't think I was having a go at anyone? However I wasn't really referring to pick up, I was thinking more of the tyre wear around that, I wasn't referring to your car as anything other than an example, sorry if you took that as negative, it was not intended that way. My point was that running slicks works up to a point and that it was not completely without some risk (which is negated by checking the car) that's all but it was an option when wanting to have more fun on track.

As for laptimes and comparing to other cars on track, well that's not something I do, for a start 90% of a lap time is the driver, always has, always will so I never compare car to car on track as its moot. Unless of course it's racing and that is more than times, its who finishes ahead, not an attitude I think would go down well on a track day!

Running slicks does add fun, but if the desire is to be faster then there are other ways of doing it, thats not to say running slicks is wrong, far from it, just one option when looking for faster times. Thats all I was trying to get across.

No John, I didn't say that you were negative or having a go (sorry if my tone indicated something like this).
Quite the contrary, your input is very good :thumbs:
And of course you have far more experience than me :beer:

Shimmy, all good mate.
John is making very valid points. I don't disagree that fresh cups could make faster laps (you mentioned that curly has tried them extensively).
However, give them a try at some point :thumbs:

[_Nathan_]

I went around the outside of him like he wasn't trying.


So timing is bad but overtaking mid corner is ok :thumbs:

I find slicks more progressive than cups!

[shimmy]

Coram is not a corner!!!!:smokin:

[_Nathan_]

Go faster then :P

[shimmy]

Go faster then :P


I do try!

It is a bent straight!

[Curly]

Alex, i dont think John was having a go!

I think the point being if it is speed you are after with slicks then where slicks get alot of their speed from is running with firm springs, rigid caged car, and the right geo.

I spent alot of time with Dontdobends who was running his m3 race car and previously his CSL on used slicks and i think Johns conclusion was that on a non race car (or non set up race car) used slicks were more or less comparable to new Cups for outright pace, maybe with a slight advantage with slicks if you have a/m suspension

id love to give slicks a go tbh, and maybe next year i might break my rule and run some somewhere or i may have to just wait fior a race drive:smokin:

Yeah I was running part worn slicks but for me it was due mainly to cost saving like Thorney says after about 5 heat cycles you do lose a lot of grip over a new slick. Sometimes my slicks would be up to 15-18 heat cycles and the rubber would be as hard as a dogs head and would be a lot slower than a new cup, you have to run a lot of camber with a slick to get the best out of it. Put a new set of cups with 3.5 degree of camber and the thing will grip

[titan]

So timing is bad but overtaking mid corner is ok :thumbs:

If the indicator is on, its fair game. If its off, its fair game ;-)

[_Nathan_]

Well the GT3 driver wasn't on the limit then as

a) they'd not be putting the indicator on
b) they be using lots of track rather than giving you room to get by :gayfight:

Love that corner :smt055

[DuncanR]

Put a new set of cups with 3.5 degree of camber and the thing will grip + 1 and amen there mate ! ...but make the most of em cos it wont last !!:hahaha:.

My thought on the issue would be that whilst you may be running slicks, and I do want to give them a go.... you dont HAVE to try and drive to the limit of their adhesion... just to the point where your sphincter loosens up just a tad !!! .. I would take the same view as when I first started driving my CSL just a year ago .. take it a step at a time .. if you make a reasonable change to your usual driving setup ... give yourself chance to learn and appreciate it first ! ... once you have the confidence ... THEN give it the beans ..... and s**t yaself !!:hahaha:

[shimmy]

+ 1 and amen there mate ! ...but make the most of em cos it wont last !!:hahaha:.

My thought on the issue would be that whilst you may be running slicks, and I do want to give them a go.... you dont HAVE to try and drive to the limit of their adhesion... just to the point where your sphincter loosens up just a tad !!! .. I would take the same view as when I first started driving my CSL just a year ago .. take it a step at a time .. if you make a reasonable change to your usual driving setup ... give yourself chance to learn and appreciate it first ! ... once you have the confidence ... THEN give it the beans ..... and s**t yaself !!:hahaha:


amen to that mutherfucker, my dick just got hard

(sorry been watching Jarhead!):whistle:

[alexk]

amen to that mutherfucker, my dick just got hard

(sorry been watching Jarhead!):whistle:

Hahahaha

[alexk]

If you see the condition of my cup tyres after 18k road kilometers, 22 laps in Nordschleife, 2 track days in France and drifting in CH, GR and the racetrack, you won't believe it !
I can take some pictures and there you can see that my 'stock' camber (max setting btw) is fine. I don't have uneven tyre wear.


Since this post I have done another 1k km and a 40 minute session in Monza, drifting everytime in the sikeins.

The wear looks good, despite my factory camber settings (-1.8 front and rear).

Comments please ?

front left
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/3749/frontleft.jpg

front right
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/4566/frontright.jpg

rear left
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/8284/rearleft.jpg

rear right
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/576/rearright.jpg

[_Nathan_]

Really surprised by the lack of wear on the outside of the fronts!

[shimmy]

you need to drive a bit quicker alex, the outsides of those tyres even with no camber, are hardly touched!!:thumbs:

[s.mac]

was it raining .... they look new ..... I have seen how a set of fronts can go in a couple of hours !

[shane@mbtech]

You drive like a pussy:gayfight:

[alexk]

:birdman:

hahaha

shimmy, judging by the fact that I am almost as fast as you are in Monza (taking into account traffic and drifting)... I think I drive the CSL a bit better than most of you that treat it like a front-wheel-drive

[s.mac]

shall we call you Jenson

[shimmy]

Really surprised by the lack of wear on the outside of the fronts!


and i thought mine were looking good half way thru this year shortly before i swapped front to rear and vice versa!

fronts
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp97/shimmylasco/CSL/fronthc265cup.jpg

rears
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp97/shimmylasco/CSL/rearhc265cup.jpg

new
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp97/shimmylasco/CSL/newhc265cup.jpg

[shane@mbtech]

:birdman:

hahaha

shimmy, judging by the fact that I am almost as fast as you are in Monza (taking into account traffic and drifting)... I think I drive the CSL a bit better than most of you that treat it like a front-wheel-drive

You were v slow at spa Alex:blalalala:

Shimmy, sell me or get me some of the 18's. I want to try the cups.

[shane@mbtech]

and i thought mine were looking good half way thru this year shortly before i swapped front to rear and vice versa!

fronts
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp97/shimmylasco/CSL/fronthc265cup.jpg

rears
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp97/shimmylasco/CSL/rearhc265cup.jpg

new
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp97/shimmylasco/CSL/newhc265cup.jpg


Is that with 3* Shimmy.

Alex seems to be getting lots of inner wear for just 1.8* on track.

My 3* was even wear and the outside of the tyres were blue. No inside wear though.

[shimmy]

Is that with 3* Shimmy.

Alex seems to be getting lots of inner wear for just 1.8* on track.

.

mostly -2.5 camber track and then just -1.5 camber road.

my guess is alex is doing most of his miles on road and quite alot loking at his mileage so the inside wear will be from motorway driving, slowly wearing with the -1.8 buts thats to be expected i think

[alexk]

Besides my post/comment (trying to wind up lawsy, shimmy and hopefully Duncan) I haven't done many track days with the cups.
I am still new with the CSL, can't say slow though (unless it's my first time in a track like Spa... where most of the guys here have been 1,2,10 times and they fly).

I will put the top mounts this winter and thinking to run -2 and -3 for the track.
I am also considering to buy new wheels for the cups... and I am confused.

[northernjim]

shall we call you Jenson

;) "carpet slippers"

Is that with 3* Shimmy.

Alex seems to be getting lots of inner wear for just 1.8* on track.

My 3* was even wear and the outside of the tyres were blue. No inside wear though.

Too hot, can't think why tho! :whistle:

Shimmy is there no way you can stop the rears wearing in the middle? Lower pressure? Although with the way fronts wear, I s'pose it all evens out when you swap them

[shimmy]

Shimmy is there no way you can stop the rears wearing in the middle? Lower pressure? Although with the way fronts wear, I s'pose it all evens out when you swap them


yep not too much of a problem if you swap them, but over the 4 years ive generally found rears wear even and in the middle even when ive dropped the pressures a little> i could drop them some more as some pyro data has shown i should but tbh camber looks right and grip levels are good and really i ned the sides for the front becasue you cant stop the front wearing on the sides

[northernjim]

Thought as much.

I think I'll try and get some proper tyre temp and pressure advice next year, show me the error of my ways :clown:

[shimmy]

Thought as much.

I think I'll try and get some proper tyre temp and pressure advice next year, show me the error of my ways :clown:

worth getting matt at tracktoys to come along and show us whats happening on the tyre front

[northernjim]

show me the error of my ways :clown:

Hucking fell Shim I was sure you'd have said something about the ford at this point..... Maybe you are mellowing like a fine wine! :hahaha:

[_Nathan_]

Or borrow my contact pyro and do it yourself for free!

[shimmy]

Hucking fell Shim I was sure you'd have said something about the ford at this point..... Maybe you are mellowing like a fine wine! :hahaha:

sorry i forgot you got a rusty piece of shite ford:thumbs:

[northernjim]

sorry i forgot you got a rusty piece of shite ford:thumbs:

thats more like the shimmy I know:birdman::hahaha::hahaha: