Intrax 1k2 vs KW Clubsport

[shane@mbtech]

I have run the KW clubsport for a year now with no issues, but think I might try something different on the CSL this year.

I am thinking of trying the intrax, has anyone gone this route or vice-versa?

Thanks

[raCedeSignLtd]

I know what you could try different.................


a gt3

:thumbs:

[shane@mbtech]

I know what you could try different.................


a gt3

:thumbs:

Stop it you, ive just finished off a nice bottle of wine, ill be easily led:hahaha:

I would get one, but I know I would not be driving as fast as I could if you get me.

[raCedeSignLtd]

Stop it you, ive just finished off a nice bottle of wine, ill be easily led:hahaha:


spoke to will the other day, think I've converted him from jap scrap to german quality engineering;)

mate you was like well on dee pace man

[Curly]

Iv'e had both first on my csl did 30,000 miles on the intrax with no probs,so easy to adjust you don't need a jack
had a M3 race-road car 08 to 09 on intrax doing 10,000 miles until total faiure on a front strut
09 in the same car kw clubsport not easy to adjust 2000 miles damping not as good as the intrax plus hazy is now had problems with the kw's and as far as i know kw clubsport dont carry a warranty the intrax does simpson's sorted the damaged intrax no quibbles.if i was buying again no question intrax with steel leg tubes.

[shimmy]

intrax with steel leg tubes.

dats what i got :thumbs:

[_Nathan_]

Got the same as Shimmy on my race car, been on the car for 20k road miles before that then just stiffer spring rates and a rebuild ready for race duty.

Been very happy with them, next stop for me once I have more money will probably be the 4 way Titan XL version of the same. Damping is very good indeed.

[shane@mbtech]

I might give the intrax a try, see how they behave:supz:

Thanks for the comments guys.

[Hazy]

I know what you could try different.................


a gt3

:thumbs:

Shane needs paddle shift dont he? I'll get him in my Challenge Stradale, that should make him reach for his cheque book LOL!!!

[shane@mbtech]

Shane needs paddle shift dont he? I'll get him in my Challenge Stradale, that should make him reach for his cheque book LOL!!!


I drove the GT3 manual at anglesey on my own and kicked arse Ad,:thumbs:

I was giving a 500+bhp evo x on slicks a good run, he will no doubt be at oulton on the 23rd, matt black evo 10, a proper weapon.

Mick who's car it was, came out with me at first in the passenger seat, I think he was shocked at how fast I was in it. :smokin:

The GT3 is a proper tool. The grip and the brakes where immense, The csl is an awesome car but the 996 gt3 just had that little bit more feel, you knew what every wheel was doing, It was an eyeopener.

[northernjim]

Are you doing the mlr trackday at oulton then Lawsy?

I'll see you there in my tired old focus...:bigcry: :beer:

[shane@mbtech]

Are you doing the mlr trackday at oulton then Lawsy?

I'll see you there in my tired old focus...:bigcry: :beer:
Yep sure am:thumbs: , dont know what in though,
csl going into murketts tomorrow, then need to fit suspension, bushes, and brakes.

Might end up doing it in the old astravan at this rate:hahaha:

[DazBlackCSL]

Yep sure am:thumbs: , dont know what in though,
csl going into murketts tomorrow, then need to fit suspension, bushes, and brakes.

Might end up doing it in the old astravan at this rate:hahaha:

Nothing wrong with astravan's ;)

[Bounce]

Nothing wrong with astravan's ;)Not as good as a Transit though,:smokin:

[DazBlackCSL]

Not as good as a Transit though,:smokin:

granted :hahaha:

[DazBlackCSL]

I have run the KW clubsport for a year now with no issues, but think I might try something different on the CSL this year.

I am thinking of trying the intrax, has anyone gone this route or vice-versa?

Thanks


Not had any experience with intrax, only watching curly explode in a ball of smoke in front of me at brands last year when his went BOOM in the race !:hahaha:

Had V3 to start with, now on a clubsport kit / paired with race struts / springs and innners, so a hybrid mix of clubsport and two way race set up (for the road a bit much) dont forget with the clubsports you can change the spring rates too to get an optimum set up ..

Raced on two way KW race kit last year, and all I can say is the most important thing is setting it up correctly, getting the best out of it, sound simple but unless you have a suspension expert with you at track it's so easy to have a bad experience or dislike a kit if it's not set up perfectly .. think rob will back me up on this :whistle:

Been really happy with my new set up, looking forward to getting to grips and tweaking a bit more this year.

As all have already said it appears the intrax are easier to adjust BUT, the KW's are independently adjustable for both bump and rebound, dont think the intrax is ? so you can get a perfectly balanced set up for diff tracks.

KW also has stainless steel housing, which is a must for long life road use, there are some developments coming with the adjusters due sometime this year I think, so will address ease of adjustment.

You get what you pay for I guess, there is better out there Moton etc , but they dont offer a road/ race kit and are big £££.

You can tell im still on the sofa and the missus is shopping :hahaha:

Might be porn time http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/adult/sex_porn.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-mad-smileys.php) :whistle:

[DazBlackCSL]

plus hazy is now had problems with the kw's and as far as i know kw clubsport dont carry a warranty

What issue's has Hazy had then John ?

[_Nathan_]

Hazy said on another forum they'd had 2 failed dampers - no idea what the nature of those was though.

You can change the spring rate with 1k2s without revalving, they have a huge range of damping adjustment. You can also choose from Ali, steel or titanium bodies.



1k2 have a single adjuster which moves bump and rebound along a pre-defined damping curve, the ability to separately alter rebound, slow bump and fast bump comes further up the model range and to be honest is more than I think is required for trackdays, and for those of us who can't yet drive the car to 100% consistantly (myself included). In my opinion it is miles easier to mess up a set up with more options, with 1K2 you can quickly make changes with no Allan keys and are less likely to end up with a clown car :bigcry:


I assume your more extreme hybrid setup isn't under warranty either daz?

[_Nathan_]

PS. KW race stuff can be used to great effect though, check out the Torquespeed CSL, feckin rapid!

[DazBlackCSL]

Hazy said on another forum they'd had 2 failed dampers - no idea what the nature of those was though.

You can change the spring rate with 1k2s without revalving, they have a huge range of damping adjustment. You can also choose from Ali, steel or titanium bodies.



1k2 have a single adjuster which moves bump and rebound along a pre-defined damping curve, the ability to separately alter rebound, slow bump and fast bump comes further up the model range and to be honest is more than I think is required for trackdays, and for those of us who can't yet drive the car to 100% consistantly (myself included). In my opinion it is miles easier to mess up a set up with more options, with 1K2 you can quickly make changes with no Allan keys and are less likely to end up with a clown car :bigcry:


I assume your more extreme hybrid setup isn't under warranty either daz?


Yeah very true mate, agreed, I found myself doing a lot of trail and error last year, BUT from my experience the KW team are V helpful, and present on most race weekends, and give you access to the tech race team guys who are also around, dont ever see any moton / intrax guys anywhere, but not knocking the product as obviously many on hear are happy with the kit, they just helped me loads last year and helped me develop the car to my driving style, and im not an experienced racer either so needed all the help I could get !! :hahaha: at donny where my car was not feeling good in practice and qually, they helped me with set up, listened to what I wanted and how the car felt, and made some quick adjustments and car was so much better.

Kit is covered, prob not officially but you'll find them very helpful on a one to one basis in the event of any issues ;)

[_Nathan_]

You are talking about cslcup though matey - kw don't attend every race series!

You do strike upon the most important point though, cheap suspension with setup info will be better than expensive stuff without. At Snett the car was set up before we got there and all we did was make 2 clicks adjustment on the front all test day, that knowledge from prior data is awesome and I guess is exactly what you found too.

[DazBlackCSL]

PS. KW race stuff can be used to great effect though, check out the Torquespeed CSL, feckin rapid!

Yep saw that ... and the nurburgring 24 hour race has been won fours years running by the mathey porsche

http://www.manthey-racing.de/

one of the many teams who run KW, must be OK I reckon, these guys could run whatever is the best, and the results speak for themselves...

I love that bloody porsche, Nath fancy a bit of VLN with me :whistle:

[_Nathan_]

Those guys will run whoever pays them most ;)

No VLN this year mate, have a plan hatching though ;)

[DazBlackCSL]

You are talking about cslcup though matey - kw don't attend every race series!

You do strike upon the most important point though, cheap suspension with setup info will be better than expensive stuff without. At Snett the car was set up before we got there and all we did was make 2 clicks adjustment on the front all test day, that knowledge from prior data is awesome and I guess is exactly what you found too.


True yes was at the CSL Cup, so I know there not at all, think the AMD/Miltek golf is running KW race in the BTCC this season, so there slowly growing into the market and across more championships where people are using the kit

[Nords]

I drove the GT3 manual at anglesey on my own and kicked arse Ad,:thumbs:

I was giving a 500+bhp evo x on slicks a good run, he will no doubt be at oulton on the 23rd, matt black evo 10, a proper weapon.

Mick who's car it was, came out with me at first in the passenger seat, I think he was shocked at how fast I was in it. :smokin:

The GT3 is a proper tool. The grip and the brakes where immense, The csl is an awesome car but the 996 gt3 just had that little bit more feel, you knew what every wheel was doing, It was an eyeopener.

Borrowed a 997 RS (for close to 2K miles) and it was more powerful and the traction at low speeds was much better, but my APs (with RS29) are just as good (as std porsche calipers with RS29). With Intrax and cups, the CSL is only a fraction slower around a track

[Nords]

I know what you could try different.................


a 996 gt3

:thumbs:

If you want to be slower...

997 GT3 is about the same....

:whistle:

Iv'e had both first on my csl did 30,000 miles on the intrax with no probs,so easy to adjust you don't need a jack
had a M3 race-road car 08 to 09 on intrax doing 10,000 miles until total faiure on a front strut
09 in the same car kw clubsport not easy to adjust 2000 miles damping not as good as the intrax plus hazy is now had problems with the kw's and as far as i know kw clubsport dont carry a warranty the intrax does simpson's sorted the damaged intrax no quibbles.if i was buying again no question intrax with steel leg tubes.


55K now matey and fine. I might change back to std suspension just to see how much of a diffeence the intrax makes...,

[raCedeSignLtd]

If you want to be slower...

997 GT3 is about the same....

:whistle:




55K now matey and fine. I might change back to std suspension just to see how much of a diffeence the intrax makes...,

I doubt whether I am any quicker in my gt3 than I was in my csl and the csl is the only car I've ever sold and regretted.
On saying that I have not flogged the gt3 and bought another csl so I guess the gt3 has got something that the csl hasn't.

[glendog74]

I am very happy with my KW Clubsport kit so far and agree with Dazza on his observations. :thumbs:

People seem to have the impression that KW kits are hard to adjust - I find they are pretty straightforward once you take 5 minutes to understand what it is you are trying to achieve. You can adjust bump and rebound at all corners without a jack although there is a bit of a knack to it and you might want to cut a small access slit in the boot carpet above the rear shocks. You do need an allen key but that's hardly a ball ache...

Info and help from KW is also good and will only get better as they increase their presence here in the UK. The fact that the shocks are stainless is also good, especially when you compare their cost with other more expensive kits and their steel bodies. With steel bodies on a daily driver, you either become obsessive with keeping under the arches clean or your shock bodies will begin to go bad over time.

[Curly]

What issue's has Hazy had then John ?
im not quite sure daz.. like nathan, i spotted it on another forum - not had a chance to speak to hazy about it. im definitely not an expert but when i had the intrax i had plenty of help from simpsons in regards to the set up, and fine tuned the springs that would work for me. with the kw club sport that raced in the csl cup i felt the springs were a bit hard and we were promised with this kit to have loads of expert and advice at each round. for me, it never really materialised - which was disappointing, because most rounds i was working on my own and had little time to experiment with set up. at the donnington round the kw suspension expert turned out to only speak german:bigcry: plus i found the kw adjusters were a needle and a small alan key, just no where near as easy to use as intrax clicker adjusters. i just found out that out of the slower corners that the intrax hooked up and gripped better for me than the kw. and also with the intrax i could ride the curbs without the car being pitched, and when i did have a failure with the intrax the boss man henk marvin (not him with the 6 string) give me a call and was very apologetic for his product failure and said it would be sorted straight away. for me i can only go off my experience, and was very pleased with the intrax product service, and set up information.

[AlexGTT]

im not quite sure daz.. like nathan, i spotted it on another forum - not had a chance to speak to hazy about it. im definitely not an expert but when i had the intrax i had plenty of help from simpsons in regards to the set up, and fine tuned the springs that would work for me. with the kw club sport that raced in the csl cup i felt the springs were a bit hard and we were promised with this kit to have loads of expert and advice at each round. for me, it never really materialised - which was disappointing, because most rounds i was working on my own and had little time to experiment with set up. at the donnington round the kw suspension expert turned out to only speak german:bigcry: plus i found the kw adjusters were a needle and a small alan key, just no where near as easy to use as intrax clicker adjusters. i just found out that out of the slower corners that the intrax hooked up and gripped better for me than the kw. and also with the intrax i could ride the curbs without the car being pitched, and when i did have a failure with the intrax the boss man henk marvin (not him with the 6 string) give me a call and was very apologetic for his product failure and said it would be sorted straight away. for me i can only go off my experience, and was very pleased with the intrax product service, and set up information.

I have John's old Intrax, though freshly rebuilt. Working an absolute treat so far John. :thumbs:Kept your spring spec which suits me very nicely as well. Only started really playing about with them set up wise last weekend and found them very easy and responsive to adjust.

[shimmy]

...




55K now matey and fine. I might change back to std suspension just to see how much of a diffeence the intrax makes...,

I changed back for a month to OEM suspension Nords and tbh it is a very well put together bit of kit, especially those Sachs shocks

on the road it is very good

[NZ_M3]

I changed back for a month to OEM suspension Nords and tbh it is a very well put together bit of kit, especially those Sachs shocks

on the road it is very good

Have to say I agree .. . I am contemplating on going back to OEM setup (actually have started running stock rear springs already :hahaha:) and this is after a number of years on the AC Schnitzer setup.

Last track day gave me the opportunite to go for a ride in a completely stock standard CSL and fXck me I was impressed with how composed and well balanced the stock system was (I have long forgotten what the stock car felt like) - whilst it wasn't as quick lap time wise, it was certainly lot more controllable and predicatable - also seem lot easier to slide around and catch if one felt so inclined.:supz:

I've honestly hit a wall with my current setup already and have not made up my mind what to go to next .. the stock system is hard to beat - I might get one of the local Koni outfitter to valve a custom double adjustable for me based on the stockers but with upwards tunability.

[Thorney]

Cant beat OEM for the road, we dont even try.

For track there are loads of options now, some good, some not so good, some with warranty, some with none, choice is yours. Personally I find Intrax too hard for UK's roads, KW hard to recommend with no warranty, Nitron very good, Moton stunning but very expensive.

Oh and looking at race cars as an indication of choice can be a little flawed, there are lots of race cars with a sticker on but others suspension (ask Andy Priaux - 3 x WTCC Champion on Motons but stickers from other on the car all three years). Some suspension manuafacturers are very agressive here, lots of free kits offered to lots of race teams = lots of suspension on cars. Free does not always = best. We pay full whack for the Moton and Nitrons on our Cup cars, bloody expensive but worth it. Moton do now do a road/track kit, single and two way adjustable.

[_Nathan_]

Interesting that you find Intrax 1k2 too hard - they can be set softer than OEM with appropriate spring rates. The whole point of the Intrax & Ohlins philosophy is softer spring rates and better damping to allow you to take loads of kurb without upsetting the balance of the car.

Motons are very, very good, but a different price bracket all together than the dampers being talked about here, Ohlins TTX at £4k+ a corner is also awesome and just as relevant to answering the question :thumbs:

[Thorney]

Interesting that you find Intrax 1k2 too hard - they can be set softer than OEM with appropriate spring rates. The whole point of the Intrax & Ohlins philosophy is softer spring rates and better damping to allow you to take loads of kurb without upsetting the balance of the car.

Motons are very, very good, but a different price bracket all together than the dampers being talked about here, Ohlins TTX at £4k+ a corner is also awesome and just as relevant to answering the question :thumbs:

Different horse for different courses I guess, I tend to go by what I'm asked to achieve. In the last few weeks we've have 2 CSL's and 1 M3 with Intrax on and the owners all wanted a more 'progressive' ride and more grip from the rear. We softened it up as best we could and it did improve both the ride and the rear end grip on the road but each came back and said after driving it on their own roads (MK is pretty good road wise) that it was still too hard. Certainly my test route home starts off on smooth MK tarmac and a track setting on KW's/Motons/Intrax all works well, but the moment I get to the crap B roads near where I live and all but the Motons leave the ride near on impossible to live with, hence a compromised set up is needed. IMO Intrax dampers are set too stiff in the range but one mans meat is another mans murder.

Motons have come down in price a lot, road/track single adjustable are now £2600 down from £4k from a few years back but agree they are above everyone else in terms of cost. C'est la vie I guess.

[_Nathan_]

What spring rates were they running on the rear and what rates did you try?

Interesting that Moton have come down that much, thought they were still silly money.

[Thorney]

Three different rates on the three cars. I'm sure we could spend more time on it via softer springs of course but didn't have the chance as each car was booked in for a single day. Intrax just have a different view on things thats all, Henk likes to run stiffer damping and softer springs and we tend to prefer the opposite but its horses for courses. We run very stiff springs in the Cup cars to the extent that KW and even Moton said they were too stiff but they seem to work pretty well, we run softer damping as a result and it means the cars run kerbs well which is a similar requirement to road cars running on bumpy surfaces.

[_Nathan_]

Any idea of what rates? Interesting for me as I honestly found that when I was running a soft spring rate on the rear there was more traction than with OEM suspension, you could feel the weight transfer to the rear of the car which just isn't there to the same extent with a stiffer rear setup.

[Curly]

Any idea of what rates? Interesting for me as I honestly found that when I was running a soft spring rate on the rear there was more traction than with OEM suspension, you could feel the weight transfer to the rear of the car which just isn't there to the same extent with a stiffer rear setup.

Ditto

[Thorney]

Any idea of what rates? Interesting for me as I honestly found that when I was running a soft spring rate on the rear there was more traction than with OEM suspension, you could feel the weight transfer to the rear of the car which just isn't there to the same extent with a stiffer rear setup.


That makes sense, we found with the spring set up that there was we softened it up as much as we could on the damping and it improved but we couldnt go far enough, hence we thought the springs were too stiff. I've got them written down on the job card will have a look.

[DuncanR]

Intrax 4-way here, and no Nathan, you cant have them in exchange for your 2 ways !!:hahaha:. Whilst the 4-ways are to some degree wasted on me,(some might say the whole fookin car is !!) due to lack of experience which i openly admit to, Im just back from the Ring where it was a snow,hail and rain blizzard for a few laps on Thursday last, and I didnt fall off. On the dry days riding the odd kerb again all seemed to be working ok. Whilst my inexperience precludes me from posting any meaningful comment regarding setup, I can comment on the build quality, and ease of use. Mine hadnt been touched since last year (other than when you adjusted the ride height John) but I when I did adjust them a couple of days ago to some settings which I cant for the life of me remember the scource of :whistle:, I was pleasantly surprised to find that given all the winter crap and dirt that they had been subjected to, all the adjusters worked fine, and with nice positive clicks, mine are Titanium though, so I suppose that does help. Henks always helpful on the phone whenever I have rung him as well.

[Nords]

Ditto

Curley, what was MD53 set up with, can you remember?

I can live with the stiffness (I call it feedback), on the road, adjusting the full range of clicks makes only a 'little' difference, much more noticable on track.

After driving Baf's Gen 1 997RS, I felt the front of the CSL 'bobbed' alot, however I don't notice it now. His 997 is running JZM suspension with remote damping units.

[Curly]

Nords for the road the front 20-22 out from max and the rear 25-27 out from max hope that helps bud if its bobbing up and down on them settings just give simpsons a call to check

[Thorney]

Curley, what was MD53 set up with, can you remember?

I can live with the stiffness (I call it feedback), on the road, adjusting the full range of clicks makes only a 'little' difference, much more noticable on track.

After driving Baf's Gen 1 997RS, I felt the front of the CSL 'bobbed' alot, however I don't notice it now. His 997 is running JZM suspension with remote damping units.

If its bouncing at the front then increase your rebound damping.

[Curly]

Rebound and compression are the same clicker on intrax,nords it never bounced about when i had it on those settings

[Nords]

I'm running fully out although Nick did pass on those trackday settings. I'll go to those settings...

Cheers...

[_Nathan_]

out fully? as in damper unwound? Hardly surprising it is bouncing if it is that under damped :D

[Nords]

Yep, fully 'soft'. I'll twist it back in...
:clown:

[shimmy]

Wally :)

[Nords]

But Shirley, the adjustment should be 'workable', from fully out to fully in?

[shimmy]

But Shirley, the adjustment should be 'workable', from fully out to fully in?

Yes it is if you want to go off roading


And stop calling me Shirley

[Nords]

Shirley I'll make it to Bath?

:thumbs:

Paypal?

[_Nathan_]

The working range of the damping covers multiple spring rates remember, if you fitted softer springs then the lower end of the damping where you are may well be suitable - the damping adjustment range is huge to allow for spring rates softer and harder than the ones you have.

[Curly]

Nords the dampers have been on the car for four years and over 40,000 miles might just need a service

[shimmy]

Nords the dampers have been on the car for four years and over 40,000 miles might just need a service

i got mine serviced this year after 1 years use :thumbs:

nice and shiney now

(Nords - if i were you i would remove them and go back to OEM - youll love it, a better road and Ring solution tbh and perfectly ok for the occassional track. Sell them for £1500)

[Nords]

I probably will, it is finding the time!

Not a spare day between now and going to the US!