Super sprint Manifold (RHD)

[flatout]

Before i plunge and buy one new :drool:, thought i'd put this up after seeing a similar add.

Please PM me with pics and condition details if possible.

Rgds
Rich

[glendog74]

You'll be lucky mate - TMS have not been selling these very long yet so unlikely a seconds will turn up?

Linky: Manifold (http://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/products/product_info.php?cPath=1329_1637_1342_1375&products_id=4173)

[shimmy]

quite a few would give them a go inc me i think but the price at £1600-£1800 is just far to high

i think id give Cams a go forst at that price;)

[Dan]

Realistically what gains are they meant to or do give?

[shimmy]

Realistically what gains are they meant to or do give?

Hopefully John will be on soon to explain.

There are lots of LHD stepped data from the US to show gains with mapping on M3 of 10-20 bhp even more

John has some dyno data on the Uk version sold exclusively thru TMS

My concerns are the price for the UK one and i am not sure how the data stacks up as no independant data available and when you spend £1600-£1800 you want something back!

Maybe John would give me one for free and i can get an independant dyno check before and after.......say ill pay £100 per bhp gained :thumbs:

[glendog74]

My concerns are the price for the UK one and i am not sure how the data stacks up as no independant data available and when you spend £1600-£1800 you want something back!


Reluctantly, i find myself agreeing with Shim again! :banghead: :hahaha:

My concern would also be the cost outlay versus power gain returns. Presumably this bit of kit works best with a full exhaust setup and ECU remap - not cheap as we all know.

I already have the full SS exhaust solution minus race cats so it is an option, but at £1600 - a rather costly one. I might be persuaded in a discounted group buy of course... (Cue ridiculously long and protracted Manifold Group Buy thread!) :whistle:

[shimmy]

Reluctantly, i find myself agreeing with Shim again! :banghead: :hahaha:

:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::h ahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hah aha::hahaha:



.
(Cue ridiculously long and protracted Manifold Group Buy thread!) :whistle:

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA:hahaha:


(MATT - STOP TYPING NOW)

[mattCSLnut]

:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::h ahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::hah aha::hahaha:





WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA:hahaha:


(MATT - STOP TYPING NOW)


:ban: Group Buy !!!

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Guys, I think your overlooking some
key points here.

1/ The North American Cars [E46 M3] have the Cats
just below the header, hence they are around
10-12 bhp down as oppossed a Euro car.
ie] there rated at 333, as oppossed the infamous 343.

Some NA cars have posted gains as large as
15 BHP with Euro headers and Cats, you go figure !!!

The Super sprint header will give no more than
8-10 BHP in the real world, if really lucky.

8-10 S/S gain if lucky, plus the 10 BHP that your
North American Cousins are down and hey,
20 BHP gain on Headers, Hello.

F1 has had good results and success with stepped
Headers, but the exhaust scavenge process of a
F1 Car, combined with the fact that there
are No Cats to impeade the exhaust Gas
out flow once its exiting, has more to do
with the results than a larger pipe into a
larger pipe theory.

BMW Motorsport actually make a large bore
Header for the S54 engine, which was of
course made for LHD only.

KK Automobile do a very good Header which
I think is around 1350 euro for a engine
upto 400 BHP plus.
Again these are for left hand drive cars
so the steering would be a problem.

Why not do a Group Buy of say 5 or more
of the KK S54 Header, and I am sure Sven
will make a RHD, as this will also give them
the pattern from which to be able to sell
others.

And if your Normally aspirated S54 ever makes
more that 420 BHP you can call BMW Motorsport
and tell them how its done.

http://www.kk-automobile.de/html/kruemmer.html

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[shimmy]

Hi,


And if your Normally aspirated S54 ever makes
more that 420 BHP you can call BMW Motorsport
and tell them how its done.

http://www.kk-automobile.de/html/kruemmer.html

.

id be happy with 380bhp :smt055

[shane@mbtech]

My headers are on and its being mapped as I type, I will let you all know the results.

Although mine is a bog standard M3 so Im only expecting 370 max, coupled with my full system and carbon airbox, csl spec except for the cams.

But put a standard csl on a dyno and it will not be 360bhp prob 345-350.


People do get drawn into peak power talk, A well mapped 345bhp peak will beat a poor mapped 370bhp peak powered car, esp on track.

Its all in the mapping. :thumbs:

[mattCSLnut]

id be happy with 380bhp :smt055

There's an easier way of getting 380 BHP :whistle:

[Dan]

Reluctantly, i find myself agreeing with Shim again! :banghead: :hahaha:

My concern would also be the cost outlay versus power gain returns. Presumably this bit of kit works best with a full exhaust setup and ECU remap - not cheap as we all know.

I already have the full SS exhaust solution minus race cats so it is an option, but at £1600 - a rather costly one. I might be persuaded in a discounted group buy of course... (Cue ridiculously long and protracted Manifold Group Buy thread!) :whistle:

I thought you only had an SS back box Rob, do you have other sections as well? :)

id be happy with 380bhp :smt055

Wouldn't we all!

[Thorney]

I'm sure you can filter through the sales mode here ;) but genuinely this is the best power modification I've done for the CSL. The story is this, I tested a couple of RHD cars that came over here for remaps (usual full exhaust, stock headers) and all same as LHD ones we've done. Then about a year later the same customer came back (he 's from France) with the SS header and wanted the car looked over again. I ran it on the dyno (same map) and it had gained 12bhp over last time so was curious. I kept the car for a week and wrote a few maps for it with the net result that we gained 18bhp over and above the stage 2 car (full exhaust) it had on it.

I rang Milltek, asked that I wanted to develop a RHD manifold but as the cost of developing manifolds is so high and everyone else who looked at it said that it wasn't possible due to the RHD car steering column being smack in the way. So I called SS (who make the RHD version) and said if they were prepared to work with us in the design and give us WW exclusivity then we would drive a car down to Italy and work with them.

The following month I drove my CSL to SS in Italy (via Spa, hehe) and we sat down to design the RHD version.

The initial investigation was right, the steering column is smack in the way so simply using a LHD version was out (unsurprisingly) so we took the decision to extend the primaries to give the engien more torque lower down the rev range. With the stage 3 cars (cams) all the power is at the top end and I wanted to get torque lower in the range to 'fill in' this power band rather than extend it further. My car already had cams fitted.

Fast forwarded about 2 months and multiple plane trips to SS and we agreed the final design and made the first 5 up. These went stright on our CSL Cup cars (we couldnt use them on some as they were standard class) and the ffect was dramatic. An immediate 10-12bhp gain with the stage 2 map and 8-10bhp on a standard car with standard map. We then spent a few weeks devloping new mapping with the same peak result as the French car - 18-20bhp but importantly an extra 18-20lb or torque between 4000-5600rpm, not surprising seeing as we'd extended the primaries by over 48mm. The tapered design maxmises airflow from the block to the extent that unmapped the car takes a few second for the o2 sensors to adjust fueling (only a few seconds, the BMW ECU is pretty good) so even unmapped the gains are immedaite and clear. Once to map the fuling to take into account the extra airflow it is pretty dramatic.

Have a look at the Snetterton video between me and Nick Foster. Both these cars have identical cams, engines and aero. The only difference between them is that Nicks car had KW suspension and standard manifold and mine had Motons and the SS/TMS manifold. Its clear from the video that my car with the Motons get the power down better from all the corners compared to the KW shod car but have a look down the back straight, I pull another 2/3 car lenghts towards the end.

As regards Shimmys comment on cams, well fitting cams is a shed load more than the mainfold. For a start the only cams really worth fitting are the 285/280 ones (we've tried all the others and these are the best by a country mile) but to fit those you need to fit uprated rockers and retainers so the cost is nearly 3 times the manifold. This is why we've swapped our stages round, stage 3 used to be the cams now its the manifold which lets face it is a benign upgrade (ie its releasing power not making it work harder as with cams) and when you come to sell the car sell the manifold sepaerately.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

I think the CSL is about 355 BHP ish although
have made a few changes which may
have altered it by 2-3 BHP.

Ie AC deleted, etc.

The CSL engine in the E30 M3, no cats
twin 60mm Exhausts, only one box,
running on Motec M880 made
365 BHP on the Dyno and it was
pulled back a bit at the top, now 355 ish
to give a bit more grunt lower down.

Will 1600 pounds worth of Super Sprint
S/S give me 10 BHP more, I very much doubt
it.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Thorney]

Hi,

I think the CSL is about 355 BHP ish although
have made a few changes which may
have altered it by 2-3 BHP.

Ie AC deleted, etc.

The CSL engine in the E30 M3, no cats
twin 60mm Exhausts, only one box,
running on Motec M880 made
365 BHP on the Dyno and it was
pulled back a bit at the top, now 355 ish
to give a bit more grunt lower down.

Will 1600 pounds worth of Super Sprint
S/S give me 10 BHP more, I very much doubt
it.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Entitled to your opinion of course. However I'm happy to refund anyone (applies to all of our upgrades) if its doesn't do what we say it does - same applies to any business really.

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Derek Musch at Musch Motorsport
had a S54 almost to full works spec
here is a pic of a BMW Motorsport
Header.

http://www.musch-motorsport.com/projecten.php?id=8


Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Thorney]

Yeah we know Musch, nice guys, we are working together on a few things actually.

[glendog74]

Some interesting info from JT and The Gorilla.

John, would my car with cat-back SS system see any benefit from a SS manifold? I would rather keep the cats standard ideally - would this restrict flow and therefore additional power?

TVM

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

Thorney- I am in no way trying to undermine
anybody's business and I am sure you have
full confidence in the products you use, sell,
and fit to the satisfaction of many customers.

Its just my opinion, and its that as I am not Racing
where every last tenth counts, then what does
a 8-10 BHP gain costing 1600.00 on an engine
that is already falling of its tourqe curve at over
7000 rpm really do for me on your average
Track Day.

I have said it before, and your comment on the
Cam Shafts puts its all into real world perspective,
there are no cheap real power gains for
a S54 engine much past 360/370 BHP.

Its always good to kick these things around
and I am sure that there are those that will not
agree with me, and thats fine.

Musch works with KK, your work with
Musch, small world, would'nt want to
paint it though.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[Thorney]

Hi,

Thorney- I am in no way trying to undermine
anybody's business and I am sure you have
full confidence in the products you use, sell,
and fit to the satisfaction of many customers.

Its just my opinion, and its that as I am not Racing
where every last tenth counts, then what does
a 8-10 BHP gain costing 1600.00 on an engine
that is already falling of its tourqe curve at over
7000 rpm really do for me on your average
Track Day.

I have said it before, and your comment on the
Cam Shafts puts its all into real world perspective,
there are no cheap real power gains for
a S54 engine much past 360/370 BHP.

Its always good to kick these things around
and I am sure that there are those that will not
agree with me, and thats fine.

Musch works with KK, your work with
Musch, small world, would'nt want to
paint it though.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Oh no mate, I didnt take it that way, indeed the tuning industry is rife with BS whereas racing tends to be more cut and dry (you win or you dont win, simples) so challenging comments I feel is perfectly justified. The downside to forums etc is that the only thing you can measure is numbers and for an NA engine that is only a small part of the story. The difference just by bolting the manifold is a very clear increase in torque in how the car drives, its only 15-18lb which isn't that much in the scheme of things but you feel it all and frankly its lovely. I like tuning NA cars, even small differences in numbers can make big differences in how the car drives thats the fun.

As for fitting a manifold to a standard cat, hmmm, dont know if I'm honest. I'd imagine you'd get decent gains from the mani but you'd lose them all in the stock cat but really couldnt be sure.

[glendog74]

As for fitting a manifold to a standard cat, hmmm, dont know if I'm honest. I'd imagine you'd get decent gains from the mani but you'd lose them all in the stock cat but really couldnt be sure.

Thanks for your reply John.

[flatout]

Before i plunge and buy one new :drool:, thought i'd put this up after seeing a similar add.

Please PM me with pics and condition details if possible.

Rgds
Rich

Oh well looks like a second hand one is out of the question......

Group buy????:thumbs:

[flatout]

It must me time of the year - was just about to put up a post on this very subject but thought to do a search first just in case someone's posted similar before:whistle: an there it was, I'd posted this nearly 12 month ago.:hahaha:

Anyway, am really considering this now and was wondering if anyone had taken the plunge in the last 12 months or indeed considering such a mod.

PS - i hear group buys are :ban: on here for the S/S system :whistle: so guess no chance of this happening :bigcry:

[s.mac]

not banned just hard work.

The only two I know that worked were some carbon bits and some bulk cheese purchase

[shane@mbtech]

I can sort decent s/s prices:thumbs:

[flatout]

I can sort decent s/s prices:thumbs:
:supz::thumbs::thumbs: YHM

[glendog74]

I can sort decent s/s prices:thumbs:

Talk to me... :whistle:

I'm still interested in doing this mod if the price was right - especially as i doubt i will be renewing my BMW warranty this year...

[glendog74]

I know... How about a group buy?! :thumbs: :bigcry:

[Bounce]

I know... How about a group buy?! :thumbs: :bigcry::hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

[shane@mbtech]

I will get the best price possible for you, whether it be 1 or 10. :thumbs:

[flatout]

I will get the best price possible for you, whether it be 1 or 10. :thumbs:

Looking forward to this :smt026

[shimmy]

you coming back to Snett on the 6th?

your favourite corner has GONE!:hahaha:

[flatout]

you coming back to Snett on the 6th?

your favourite corner has GONE!:hahaha:

don't know what your on about.... must be someone else....:blalalala:

nice to hear about the corner though, looked scary on googlemaps..:smokin::whistle:

See u then :hahaha:

[DuncanR]

you coming back to Snett on the 6th?

your favourite corner has GONE!:hahaha: Oh dear ...so will Lawsy then if he still tries to take it flatout !!:hahaha:

[DazBlackCSL]

not banned just hard work.

The only two I know that worked were some carbon bits and some bulk cheese purchase


It's about time we got some more cheese in :-D

http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/zz192/denistephenson/smileys/smiley%20food%20and%20beverage/food-and-drink021.gif

[AlexGTT]

It's about time we got some more cheese in :-D

http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/zz192/denistephenson/smileys/smiley%20food%20and%20beverage/food-and-drink021.gif

Think I'm donna go Brie this year. :clown: