Alcon Brake issues - please look

[NZ_M3]

Mods, if you don't mind leaving this up for a short while here - I understand that it should really belong to the technical forum, but I want to gather as much feedback as I can in as short of space of time as possible.

Ladies and Gents I need your help !! (John (Thorney), if you can give me your input also it would be great, as I am sure you'd probably have some clue as to what might be going on???)


Okay for those of you that run Alcon Brakes or have run them (especially those doing CSL Cups with these brakes, or a variant of it) - I've been having some issues lately with these brakes and I can't seem to get to the bottom of it:

Quick background:

This is the second set of rotors I've put on - the first set warped after 3 track outings - this was really partially my fault as I didn't bother to bed the rotors in :banghead: (got too excited about new brakes and pretty much just drove them to death) - they would have lasted less than 1000km of driving.

My recent track day just been I bedded the brakes in religiously. I did: 10 sets of mid speed near stops (i.e. less than 100km/h) to bring the temperature up, then had the brakes cool down completely (combination of cool down laps where very little brakes were applied and afterwards letting the car cool down completely for about 20 minutes)

This was followed by 2 more sets of 10 high speed stops (near race speed 180km/h to 220km/h) with cool down laps in between the 2 sets, followed by a 30 minute cool down.

During the cool down periods I made sure that the car didn not stay stationary in one spot and rolled the car back and forth multiple times to prevent heat soak.

Afterwards I went about my normal track day, each time keeping the fast laps to a maximum of 4 laps (2.2km course) followed by 2 cool down laps each time.

As the day went by I could feel that awful juddering sensation that you get when the discs are warped - it got worse the hotter the brakes ran ... HOWEVER - each time this started to rear its ugly head I would slow down the pace and give the brakes plenty of opportunity to cool down, as the brakes cooled the juddering went away, but would come back again as the brakes heated up.

by the afternoon sessions I could only get in about 2 and a half laps of the 2.2km circuit before the juddering came back (it certainly wasn't fun as the steering wheel shook away in my hand under hard braking).

On this circuit there's 2 heavy stops (1x220km/h and the other about 250km/h braking) - that's about it and each time the juddering came, it would happen at all the braking points, even the ones where I am simply tapping the brakes to scrub speed.


Lucky for me the discs don't seem to be warped - as from stone cold I can be applying the brakes lightly or really heavily and there would be no juddering or shake of the steering wheel - it would be perfect stop every time. However once hot it would appear again.

I tried holding the brakes whilst accelerating and I could feel as the brakes got hotter the steering started to shake ...

Once cooled down, everything went back to normal.

Now Question!!

1. Are my brakes simply overheating?

2. Are my discs not 'floating' properly against the bell causing it to warp as it got hot?

3. Something else causing the juddering feel?

PS> The car has had new front control arm bushing put it and all the front ball joints checked - there doesn't appear to be anything steering related - plus when the car is stone cold it'd stop perfectly and with loads of stopping power.

PS2> I also have no brake cooling of any sort whatsoever on this car ... probably a mistake - also the backing plates are still in place.

PS3> This is doing my head in so much that I am even considering going back to the stock brake set up!!!

ANY INPUT, OPINIONS, THEORIES APPRECIATED!!

Some pictures of the discs

Passenger side:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n319/M3_Power/Alcon%20Brakes/ResizeofP1020324.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n319/M3_Power/Alcon%20Brakes/ResizeofP1020325.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n319/M3_Power/Alcon%20Brakes/ResizeofP1020326.jpg

Driver side:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n319/M3_Power/Alcon%20Brakes/ResizeofP1020327.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n319/M3_Power/Alcon%20Brakes/ResizeofP1020328.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n319/M3_Power/Alcon%20Brakes/ResizeofP1020329.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n319/M3_Power/Alcon%20Brakes/ResizeofP1020330.jpg

[shimmy]

what pads are you using?

[NZ_M3]

what pads are you using?

Ferodo Racing DS3000

[DazBlackCSL]

Must admit having run AP's on road car, and raced on Alcon's in the CSL cup this seems to be a feature of the Alcons, had a mate who had the Alcons on and they were always juddering on track days and the ring.

That being said I think you have to drive through it as they do improve, did not have the same issues on the race car, but then as Shim says might be the pads that can really make a difference.

Although not had issues with AP's running RS29's at all

Your discs look fine as well.;)

Im not the most technical of people!! tend to just get in and drive lol

[shimmy]

ive had AP issues in the past running DS2500 (couple of sets of rotors)

could have been me and also the pads

i would have thought DS3000 far better as full race pads (but they will ruin your rims)

[NZ_M3]

Must admit having run AP's on road car, and raced on Alcon's in the CSL cup this seems to be a feature of the Alcons, had a mate who had the Alcons on and they were always juddering on track days and the ring.

That being said I think you have to drive through it as they do improve, did not have the same issues on the race car, but then as Shim says might be the pads that can really make a difference.

Although not had issues with AP's running RS29's at all

Your discs look fine as well.;)

Im not the most technical of people!! tend to just get in and drive lol

Oh interesting that your mate's also experienced this !!!... was it also on a CSL or M3? So it improves as it wore in?

I also have a set of SBS road pads, but from memory those are lot worse and hardly any better than factory in terms of stopping power.

I did think the discs looked fine (unlike my warped set .. that disc is no longer round .. it's a bit oval :hahaha:)

ive had AP issues in the past running DS2500 (couple of sets of rotors)

could have been me and also the pads

i would have thought DS3000 far better as full race pads (but they will ruin your rims)

So you had similar sort of issues with DS2500 on th APs Shim??

I regret using the Ferodos after a couple of track days now to be honest ... wish I had gone to Pagids, Performance Friction or Endless ... :banghead:

[_Nathan_]

My initial thought was pad deposits but DS3000 are hard, sintered pads and should be up to the job.

I'd be tempted to try some PF01s or RS29s though to see if it made a difference.

[shimmy]

i think DS2500 are essentially road pads and cant cope with the heat created at the front of the e46 - ds3000 are much harder, full of iron

when you say OVAL are they noticably warped or could it be pad deposits;)

[NZ_M3]

My initial thought was pad deposits but DS3000 are hard, sintered pads and should be up to the job.

I'd be tempted to try some PF01s or RS29s though to see if it made a difference.

Might pay to try some other pads I think ... because this new disc set certainly don't look or feel warped to me ...

i think DS2500 are essentially road pads and cant cope with the heat created at the front of the e46 - ds3000 are much harder, full of iron

when you say OVAL are they noticably warped or could it be pad deposits;)

the warped set is oval - in the sense that if you stand it up next to the new disc it is noticeably taller one way and shorter the other :hahaha:

hmmm the common denominator so fars seems to be pointing to a pad issue ... I really do hope so - don't really want to be buying new discs every couple of trackdays - it can get a bit expensive I think :bigcry:

[glendog74]

ive had AP issues in the past running DS2500 (couple of sets of rotors)

could have been me and also the pads


I had judder on my APs using DS2500 on track - especially when trail braking.

The issue went away with Pagid RS29s :thumbs:

[DazBlackCSL]

Oh interesting that your mate's also experienced this !!!... was it also on a CSL or M3? So it improves as it wore in?:

Yes CSL with Alcon (CSL Cup) brakes and RS14 pads, was always moaning that they were juddering on and off the track (after track days)

And the more he drove the better they got, so drove through it.

[shimmy]

BUT THE WARPED oval ONES SOUND FAR TOO EXTREME TO BE A BIT OF PAD DEPOSIT - fuck it , caps like Duncan!

[NZ_M3]

Yeah the warped set really was my fault ... no bedding in whatsoever ... was pretty much brand new then straight onto the track at full speed and multiple laps (8+ laps) and then 10 minute break and back on again ... :bigcry:and that went on for the whole day :supz: Had fun destroying it though :whistle::banghead:

Sounds like I need to get me some Pagids ... or Performance Friction I think ...

[DazBlackCSL]

Yeah the warped set really was my fault ... that was pretty much brand new then straight onto the track at full speed and multiple laps (8+ laps) and then 10 minute break and back on again ... :bigcry:and that went on for the whole day :supz: Had fun destroying it though :whistle::banghead:

Sounds like I need to get me some Pagids ... or Performance Friction I think ...


As Nathan has also said RS29's, been running these all year round now, so track and road, squeal a bit on the road, but never had any issues on track, and pull up lap after lap :thumbs:

[NZ_M3]

As Nathan has also said RS29's, been running these all year round now, so track and road, squeal a bit on the road, but never had any issues on track, and pull up lap after lap :thumbs:

Price for a set?

Yes CSL with Alcon (CSL Cup) brakes and RS14 pads, was always moaning that they were juddering on and off the track (after track days)

And the more he drove the better they got, so drove through it.

I guess I am not the only one experiencing this with the Alcons then ... hmmmm ... maybe the solution's just more track days :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

[The Gorilla]

Hi,

NZ_M3- Are your Calipers Shimmed corectlty
and centered to your discs ?

Ie] with the front wheel off when you rotate
the disc through 360 degrees does the disc
always stay even equall distance from the disc
face, ?

Also check to see if the calipers are sitting
''square' to the face of the disc, so that
the gap between the face of the Pad and disc
is more or even.

If the calipers are not aligned true to the
face of the Disc, which can be a machine or
tooling issue at manufacture, then you will
not only destroy discs very quickly but you
will suffer Brake Judder.

Softer Pads, such as DS2500 will wear and
tear which will compensate a little for
components which are out of true,
where as Harder Pads will throw up issues
very quickly.

I know AP supply thin 'shim' washers for their
Calipers which are used to 'true' caliper to
edge of disc, but I have seen some on rare
occassions where thin spacers have been
required to centre the caliper over the discs
faces.

Looking at the pictures of your Discs, although
hard to tell from a pic there does not seem to
be much Pad residule on the face, so I would
guess that Pads are not overheating.

Are your Pads able to move Ok within the
Caliper body, as sticking pads will cause
judder and can lead to disc warp.

As a note- when I had AP's on my E39 M5 I had
terrible Brake Judder after about 2000 miles.
AP replaced the discs, and then the same again
more or less.

Was running DS2500 Pads. No point Tracking
2 ton of E39 M5 with recirculating Ball steering.

Then on the third set the discs were not only
bedded in but they were taken right through a
full over heat cycle so that the discs were well,well
'blue' where they meet the alloy disc belles.

Never had any issues after that.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

[NZ_M3]

Hi,

NZ_M3- Are your Calipers Shimmed corectlty
and centered to your discs ?

Ie] with the front wheel off when you rotate
the disc through 360 degrees does the disc
always stay even equall distance from the disc
face, ?

Also check to see if the calipers are sitting
''square' to the face of the disc, so that
the gap between the face of the Pad and disc
is more or even.

If the calipers are not aligned true to the
face of the Disc, which can be a machine or
tooling issue at manufacture, then you will
not only destroy discs very quickly but you
will suffer Brake Judder.

Softer Pads, such as DS2500 will wear and
tear which will compensate a little for
components which are out of true,
where as Harder Pads will throw up issues
very quickly.

I know AP supply thin 'shim' washers for their
Calipers which are used to 'true' caliper to
edge of disc, but I have seen some on rare
occassions where thin spacers have been
required to centre the caliper over the discs
faces.

Looking at the pictures of your Discs, although
hard to tell from a pic there does not seem to
be much Pad residule on the face, so I would
guess that Pads are not overheating.

Are your Pads able to move Ok within the
Caliper body, as sticking pads will cause
judder and can lead to disc warp.

As a note- when I had AP's on my E39 M5 I had
terrible Brake Judder after about 2000 miles.
AP replaced the discs, and then the same again
more or less.

Was running DS2500 Pads. No point Tracking
2 ton of E39 M5 with recirculating Ball steering.

Then on the third set the discs were not only
bedded in but they were taken right through a
full over heat cycle so that the discs were well,well
'blue' where they meet the alloy disc belles.

Never had any issues after that.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Hi Gorilla

Thanks for your input.

The Alcons do come with spacer shims and I've measured the gap for the full 360 turn and it runs true to the surface of the disc, it is also square (that was the first few things I checked) - when it isn't square you can hear pad knock (my experience anyways)

The spacing shims for the Alcons however aren't designed to space the caliper axially, rather it spaces the caliper radially to the disc.

Thanks for your input .. seems like there's a couple of possibilities that I can further investigate.

What about the pad hitting the bell as it expands? I have less than 1mm gap between the bell and the pad - wondering if it might be this causing the judder?

I did run the disc through 3 graduating heat cycles as per original post - the discs aren't as blue as I hoped, but that was probably just me picking up speed sooner than I should. Perhaps another round of bedding in you suggest?

[_Nathan_]

If you want your disks to last longer then ditch the DS3000 regardless, they are far more aggressive than RS29, sintered rather than ceramic based.

[NZ_M3]

If you want your disks to last longer then ditch the DS3000 regardless, they are far more aggressive than RS29, sintered rather than ceramic based.

YES SIR!! Will do straight away :hahaha:

now who wants to ship me some RS29s:beer:

[shimmy]

what shape code are alcons using?

[NZ_M3]

what shape code are alcons using?


Mintex MDB2607
Alcon 4497
Pagid U8028
SBS 3061
Ferodo 3081

[M5 Powered]

If in doubt, talk to Alcon Direct.

I went to the factory last week in Tamworth. Strictly speaking, they are not open to the public, but were nothing more than extremely helpful.

They have a rather rapid old RS6 which one of the staff uses partly as a development car. This runs the advantage kit (same as E46) and they also swear by the RS29s for road and track.

Jonathan.

[$w!ft]

I got the BBK AP with RS14's and I sometimes get judder on track...

[Thorney]

Its the pads, we had the same in testing on the cup cars. RS29's problem solved.

[NZ_M3]

Its the pads, we had the same in testing on the cup cars. RS29's problem solved.


Awesome!! There's a consensus on the CAUSE it seems!!!

Going to get some new Pagid Pads then :hahaha::thumbs:

Cheers for all the hep fellas!!

Admin - feel free to move this post to the appropriate forum section.

[glendog74]

Admin - feel free to move this post to the appropriate forum section.

Done.

[DuncanR]

BUT THE WARPED oval ONES SOUND FAR TOO EXTREME TO BE A BIT OF PAD DEPOSIT - fuck it , caps like Duncan!


hA HA sHIT hAPPENS ...bollox !:hahaha:

[7.77]

rs14 are just piece of shit !
rs29 are the best !

[shimmy]

rs14 are just piece of shit !
rs29 are the best !


:bigcry:

[glendog74]

:bigcry:

I take it you're still running with RS14s then Shim? And all based on the recommendation of a Pork Gayman driver :whistle: :hahaha:

[7.77]

I take it you're still running with RS14s then Shim? And all based on the recommendation of a Pork Gayman driver :whistle: :hahaha:

had changed my stoptech kit because of an advice on using rs14 (from a uk dealer :bigcry:) !! It was a real shit, thought the kit was faulty and bought another bbk. before fitting it i changed the rs14 by RS29 (the french number one track pad).....and realise rs29 are far far far away from rs14 !! The stoptech bbk was just :smt007.

finally i sold it because i already had my new kit wich was sold with ...........RS14 :banghead: (wich came from...........uk :birdman:)

i just wait my new rs29 from............the states !

NEVER TRUST SOMEONE GIVING ADVICE ON FITTING RS14 FOR TRACK USE (or fit them on your clio estate)

[shimmy]

Rs14 are the business and as far as i am concerned you can all keep on using the rock hard and flakey Rs29

you must all have lead feet!:thumbs:

[glendog74]

you must all have lead feet!:thumbs:

That's because we are all 'Hobby' track drivers... :hahaha:

[northernjim]

rs14 are just piece of shit !
rs29 are the best !

:bigcry:

I take it you're still running with RS14s then Shim? And all based on the recommendation of a Pork Gayman driver :whistle: :hahaha:


Faakkin hell, tomorrow morning some rs14's will arrive on my doorstep!!!

I'll be using them at anglesey on saturday, so I will see if i get any judder......



why do you all hate them then? don't they cope with the heat?



apart from that, good luck with the rs29's nz m3

hope they sort your problem:bigcry:

[DuncanR]

Just fitted RS29's (as purchased from Thorney).. across front of mine, they can squeal, they can flake ...and they can fookin shake ! but if they ...brake !! thaddledayu for me !:thumbs:

[philj]

Feel your pain northernjim! :bigcry:

I just picked up my CSL last weekend from Bexley with an AP BBK upgrade with RS14s!

I'll be putting them to the test at Silverstone later this month. If they're good enough for Shim then they're good enough to me, after all he's got a fair bit more weight to slow down than me! :hahaha:

[shimmy]

after all he's got a fair bit more weight to slow down than me! :hahaha:


that'll be true! :thumbs:


if not a little harsh!:birdman:

[Curly]

I take it you're still running with RS14s then Shim? And all based on the recommendation of a Pork Gayman driver :whistle: :hahaha:

:birdman: yer gota luv all the mind games:hahaha:

[glendog74]

:birdman: yer gota luv all the mind games:hahaha:

It was only a matter of time before you came along! http://openpitlane.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/desperate.gif

[Curly]

Your second on the list:smokin:

[DazBlackCSL]

:hahaha:

[northernjim]

hmmm bedded the rs14's in on friday night

Initial thoughts were - "wow", just felt so much better than the ferodo ds2500's. speed just drops away with so little pressure:thumbs:

at anglesey on saturday, they did a bit of moanoning in the morning, then I had an instructor in the afternoon - tried to get me to do this silly thing called trail braking?

so lighter longer braking it was - feck me did they grumble and rumble:bigcry::bigcry::bigcry::bigcry:

It even feels like my discs are warped again....:clown:

I'll take them out clean them, and the calipers, check everything is tight, and put the ferodo's back in see if that clears it up ( it was my intention to just use the pagids for track anyway...)

and if that does not sort it out then i will just have to go back to the standing it on its nose type of braking i like going on track days to do:whistle:

[DuncanR]

hmmm bedded the rs14's in on friday night

They're fooked now then Jim :thumbs:!!!:hahaha:

[northernjim]

:bigcry::bigcry::bigcry::bigcry: expensive evening that then- bedding in the pads :bigcry:


I have been reading up on the different pads, on the pagid site again....

RS14's still sound like the ones i want :clown: :banghead:, these RS29's you all go on about sound pants....:blalalala::whistle:

they have neglected to put some vital info, in the technical data, that once they have been bedded in they are w4nk tho:banghead::banghead::hahaha::bigcry:

[glendog74]

:bigcry::bigcry::bigcry::bigcry: expensive evening that then- bedding in the pads :bigcry:


I have been reading up on the different pads, on the pagid site again....

RS14's still sound like the ones i want :clown: :banghead:, these RS29's you all go on about sound pants....:blalalala::whistle:

they have neglected to put some vital info, in the technical data, that once they have been bedded in they are w4nk tho:banghead::banghead::hahaha::bigcry:

Oh Jim - when will you see the light? LoL! :hahaha:

RS29s my friend... :whistle:

[alexk]

I got one set of RS14s.

In shimmy we trust :beer:

[glendog74]

In shimmy we trust :beer:

Questionable ethic that Alex... :whistle::hahaha:

[shimmy]

I think I'll shut up in the future!

[northernjim]

Oh Jim - when will you see the light? LoL! :hahaha:

RS29s my friend... :whistle:


:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha::birdman:

one day... maybe.... I will finally see the light:clown:


I am hoping to be in a rear wheel drive car at somepoint this year :smokin:, although 4 wheel drive is also tempting me:whistle:

[glendog74]

I am hoping to be in a rear wheel drive car at somepoint this year :smokin:, although 4 wheel drive is also tempting me:whistle:

I'll take you for a leisurely lap of the Ring again mate if you want? :whistle:

4WD is :gayfight:

[northernjim]

I'll take you for a leisurely lap of the Ring again mate if you want? :whistle:

4WD is :gayfight:


I will be a rear wheel drive passenger slut at the ring if you don't mind:beer: :supz:


(the 4wd would be for pootling around everyday:beer: hopefully something rwd and stripped out for track