thoughts about track rims and tyres [Archive]

shimmy

29-10-2009, 07:38 PM

so although i am a collector of Michelin Cups :thumbs: i have been wondering what to do this winter to adjust and improve tyre and rim choice for next years trackdays to optimize cost, grip and flexibility

my DECISIONS so far;

1. Stick to Michelin Cup tyres, not R888 or slicks for various reasons
2. same size rims all round, not sure on size though

Choices still to make

3. What diameter size rim (18 or 19 inch)
4. Rim offsets and spacers needed
5. What width rims (9, 9.5 or 10 inch)
6. Michelin Cup tyre sizes 235, 245 or 265

So i need you guys to have a think and tell me what to do.

Interestingly from the http://www.michelinman.com/tires/ultra-high-performance-sport/pilot-sport-cup/#sizes-and-specifications website you can find out the tyre circumference diameter and width for each tyre on each rim size.

For instance 235/35/19 standard front Cups on 8.5 inch CSL rims have section width of 9.49 inches

Or standard 265/35/19 standard rear Cups on 9.5 inch CSL rims have a section width of 10.70 inches

So if i was to put rear rims and tyres on the front i would have to cope with an extra 1.21 inches of tyre width

BUT for instance of i was to run 265/35/18 on 18 inch rims the wodth would go up to 10.9 inches i guess from the extra height of side wall

any thought you old pipe smoking nerds ;)

Hazy

29-10-2009, 08:03 PM

why not spare wheels with slicks Shim?? Massive massive difference IMO, worth the hassle of a spare set of wheels. Popular opinion says the E46 chassis works better on 18's too, dunno why?

shimmy

29-10-2009, 08:28 PM

why not spare wheels with slicks Shim?? Massive massive difference IMO, worth the hassle of a spare set of wheels. Popular opinion says the E46 chassis works better on 18's too, dunno why?

thought about slicks last year Hazy but my car is road spec and no cage and once you see the extra cornering G forces caused when using slicks and then translate that into the extra speed you are likely to hit a wall then i decided then and there;

2. No Slicks without cage

to go along with my previous rule;

1. No Ring laps without cage

:thumbs:

might be worth it at Bedford but really dodgy at Brands, Oulton or Silverstone

Hazy

29-10-2009, 08:38 PM

thought about slicks last year Hazy but my car is road spec and no cage and once you see the extra cornering G forces caused when using slicks and then translate that into the extra speed you are likely to hit a wall then i decided then and there;

2. No Slicks without cage

to go along with my previous rule;

1. No Ring laps without cage

:thumbs:

might be worth it at Bedford but really dodgy at Brands, Oulton or Silverstone

yeah, see what you mean :thumbs:

faggot:gayfight::hahaha:

shimmy

29-10-2009, 08:44 PM

faggot:gayfight::hahaha:

a careful queer :birdman:

Thorney

29-10-2009, 09:24 PM

18" Pro Race 1.2 rims, 18 x 9. Dunlop Direza tyres.

Wheels are cheap and bullet proof, tyres last longer than R888's

Done

shimmy

29-10-2009, 11:01 PM

18" Pro Race 1.2 rims, 18 x 9. Dunlop Direza tyres.

Wheels are cheap and bullet proof, tyres last longer than R888's

Done

yep John., Curly/Nords had these and seem like the best option £ for £.

The rims will save about and avarage of 2.5kg per corner over CSL rims but not sure how that translates to feel etc

But i was just trying to work out if the same could be done with 265 Cups but a/m rims.

I wonder if they do 19 inch Pro Race?

Nords

29-10-2009, 11:08 PM

Funnily enough I have decided to run with 19" cups only so Hazy is after my 18" with the dunlops on (they are a great tyre and road legal!)

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj49/GSXRthou/CSL/IMG_3909.jpg

shimmy

29-10-2009, 11:16 PM

glendog74

29-10-2009, 11:43 PM

my previous rule;

1. No Ring laps without cage

:thumbs:

:gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :gayfight: :whistle:

_Nathan_

29-10-2009, 11:48 PM

265 is too wide for a 9" wheel really (same for a 250 slick), look at the shape they make on the wheel and how the car looks to falls over the tyre when cornering.

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn304/MannyLPS/PJC_4455W.jpg

9.5 is IMO the ideal wheel width but 10" are more common (Rays are a good 9.5 option but expensive). Pro Race 1.3 available in 10" and the tyre won't move about so much.

If you are sticking with 19" just stick with the CSL wheel unless you want to spend a fortune on nice BBS or Rays rims.

PS. Remortgage and get 18x10 BBS E88 all round and I may want to marry you.

shimmy

29-10-2009, 11:51 PM

PS. Remortgage and get 18x10 BBS E88 all round and I may want to marry you.

not sure id have you :smokin:

_Nathan_

29-10-2009, 11:53 PM

Bitch.

shane@mbtech

30-10-2009, 12:14 AM

Nords

part of my plan is to find a reduced weight wheel like the pro race 1.2 and i am not convinced by the effectivelness of the dunlop tyres (but could be convinced)

So i will def need lighter 19 or 18 inch rims (cheap ones) and then fit either 19 or 18 inch 265/35 tyres (you can get both in Cups.)

I ran pro race 1.2 this year with 235 40 18 and 265 35 18 a048,

seemed pretty good tbh, but im trying the 265 35 18 pilot sport cups all round next year..... see how they compare.

shimmy

30-10-2009, 01:48 AM

I ran pro race 1.2 this year with 235 40 18 and 265 35 18 a048,

seemed pretty good tbh, but im trying the 265 35 18 pilot sport cups all round next year..... see how they compare.

that is the conclusion i am coming to

what rims, pro race 1.2 18x9 ?

3wheels3

30-10-2009, 03:42 AM

Is there a price difference between 18" or 19" Cups? Not that I'm a tight arse git or anything

shane@mbtech

30-10-2009, 11:10 AM

that is the conclusion i am coming to

what rims, pro race 1.2 18x9 ?

Yes pro race 1.2 18 x 9

It does feel different on the 18s, but ive not been on track with the 19's so cannot pass fair comparison really

Is there a price difference between 18" or 19" Cups? Not that I'm a tight arse git or anything

Negligable tbh wheels,

Hazy

30-10-2009, 11:50 AM

18" Pro Race 1.2 rims, 18 x 9. Dunlop Direza tyres.

Wheels are cheap and bullet proof, tyres last longer than R888's

Done

thinking about buying another set for our E46 John, how much a set??

Funnily enough I have decided to run with 19" cups only so Hazy is after my 18" with the dunlops on (they are a great tyre and road legal!)

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj49/GSXRthou/CSL/IMG_3909.jpg

never mind after them, I deffo want them, just been busy!!!! Gotta pick up my new daily $hitter from near you next weekend, so will probably get them then mate :thumbs:

Thorney

30-10-2009, 12:40 PM

6 cars running on 250 wide slicks on the Pro Race 1.2's for a season and never had any issues and tyre wear was enough for John to pikey out all season barely on one set. 265 rear tyre shouldnt be an issue on a 9" rim either but does depend on which one. Dunlop Direza's are fine.

Wheels are about £600 for a set, think we have a few in stock. Rays are better bet of course, I used to run 9" front and 10" rear but at £2500 a set they aren't cheap although even lighter than the Pro Race.

shimmy

30-10-2009, 12:40 PM

Is there a price difference between 18" or 19" Cups? Not that I'm a tight arse git or anything

I will check with the Cups but I've heard difference is negligible as the 18 tyre is actually more rubber than 19 due to profile.

You will get rims alot cheaper but resale I guess will be harder.

The main reason in my mind for 18 rims is the weight saving and handling but if I could get 19 inch Pro Race 1.2 I would probably go for them so my tyre stock is not all redundant' ;)

_Nathan_

30-10-2009, 02:01 PM

9" is the narrowest rim that a 265 cup can be used on, same with a 250 slick, both suggest 9-10.5 inch wheel. A 250/640/18 Dunlip slick is 10.1" wide, it is designed for a 9.5" wheel. I've had good discussions with the tyre and wheel people about the issue of the car falling over itself as the tyre tucks under and the consensus was to go to a wider wheel to stretch the sidewalls and reduce the wheel moving inside the tyre hence my suggestion of a 10" wheel. My car is heavier than the cup cars so horses for courses and not suggesting what you've found isn't right, just different to what I've seen on my car.

Nick bell ran 18x10 BBS and later OZ on his car to great effect, worth having a chat with him?

I've got some 18x10 team dynamic 1.3s waiting to go on, fingers crossed my offset calculations were right :D

shimmy

30-10-2009, 03:11 PM

Nick bell ran 18x10 BBS and later OZ on his car to great effect, worth having a chat with him?

I've got some 18x10 team dynamic 1.3s waiting to go on, fingers crossed my offset calculations were right :D

ive done my own calcs and your offsets are well out mate :thumbs:

but then i realised you will be running big camber and also want to widen your track as much as possible

from a road car point of view my calcs show that if i want matching rims front and back and 265 tyres (18 or 19) then to maximise the space available inside the front wheel you need to increase the offset on the bigger rims to best size et32 to fit the front as efficiently as possible.

This means the same rims on the rears have a say 5mm bigger to make use of the space to the strutts.

this means that the tyres will be 14.2mm further out, that makes the perfect rim the 18x10 et 30 from the catalogue but i would prefer a 19x10 et32 and hope that the extra camber needed to tuck under the front arch is not too much (-3 hopefully)

obviously different fro you race car, different priorities :supz:

_Nathan_

30-10-2009, 03:17 PM

Remember that the width of the tyre face doesn't change and it is the tyre that needs to clear the arch, not the face of the wheel. I'd have liked a lower offset but they couldn't make them any lower, we'll see ;)

Found this useful: http://www.1010tires.com/WheelOffsetCalculator.asp

This car is running 18x10 ET11 all round:

shimmy

30-10-2009, 03:28 PM

yep, understand, i have been working on rubber sizes as the michelin specs for Cups.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.jsp?make=Michelin&model=Pilot+Sport+Cup

i am trying to tuck the new rubber as close to the strutt as the current one is, assuming that this is as close as you want to get. CSL fronts are et45 and with the 18x10 and 265 cup this means for the inside of the tyre to be in the same place you need an et32

this just leaves the question, what camber is needed to tuck the 265 under the arches if it is sticking out 14.2mm further?

_Nathan_

30-10-2009, 03:33 PM

Well you know that an 18x9 ET27 (m3 rear) fits just fine and that sticks out 24mm more that an 8.5 et45 so I think it'd be fine, also remember that loads of people run 10-12mm spacers on the front, again with no issues.

TANKSLAPPER

30-10-2009, 03:59 PM

I have done a little testing on the front wheel clearance

This was with 3 degrees camber

The standard CSL wheel as we know is 19 x 8.5 et 45 fits
BBS CH'S is 19 x 8.5 et 35 fits
BBS CH'S 19 x 8.5 et 35 with a 12mm spacers fits = to 19 x 8.5 et 23

The standard CSL rear wheel on the front 19 x 9.5 et 27 just touches the outer side edge of the arch.

The BBS CH'S rears 19 x 10 et 20 rubs a lot.

So my cal's, would be to go for 18 or 19 x 9.5 et32 for the front and the same for the rear with a 15mm spacers

The problem is I can not find a wheel manufacturer that make such a size wheel lol

TANKSLAPPER

30-10-2009, 04:46 PM

Here's some photos of BBS CH'S rears 19 x 10 et 20 on the front they rub on the outside edge of the wheel arch, but they do clear the suspension strut.

If you take out the wheel arch liner then they may clear.

I not going first through the foxhole lol

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc311/IAIN830/wheelclearance001.jpghttp://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc311/IAIN830/wheelclearance003.jpghttp://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc311/IAIN830/wheelclearance005.jpghttp://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc311/IAIN830/wheelclearance006.jpghttp://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc311/IAIN830/wheelclearance007.jpghttp://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc311/IAIN830/wheelclearance010.jpghttp://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc311/IAIN830/wheelclearance020.jpg

shimmy

30-10-2009, 05:46 PM

So my cal's, would be to go for 18 or 19 x 9.5 et32 for the front and the same for the rear with a 15mm spacers

i dont think 9.5 or 10.0 will make a difference as the tyre section will be much the same so the opiton could be 19 or18x10 et 32

Team Dynamics Pro-race 1.3 (liuke Nathans) make a 18x10 et 30 which is guess would be the one to go for

Only troubles are;

1. Nathan uses them :gayfight:

2. Mazda Miatos use them as well:gayfight:

ALSO i just rang Rimstock and the Pro Race 1.3s with 18 inch 265 Cups weigh over 1 KG more than rear CSL rims with Cups:banghead:

TANKSLAPPER

30-10-2009, 06:22 PM

i dont think 9.5 or 10.0 will make a difference as the tyre section will be much the same so the opiton could be 19 or18x10 et 32

Team Dynamics Pro-race 1.3 (liuke Nathans) make a 18x10 et 30 which is guess would be the one to go for

s

I agree that 9.5 or 10 j will not make much difference as both the standard CSL wheel ie 19 x 9,5 et27 and the bbs 19 x 10 et 20 touch the arch liner in the same place.

The only problem I can see with team Dynamics 18 x 10j et 30 is they may just touch the suspension strut.

You can see from the above photos that the BBS 10j et20 wheel is very close to the suspension strut ie about 10mm

I suppose 18 x 10j et 25 would work in my case with KW club sports on.

shimmy

30-10-2009, 06:35 PM

the standard front CSL tyre is 165.7mm from hub face to iside edge of tyre

the 18x10 et 30 TD Pro race with 265 Cups would be 163.9mm from hub face to inside edge of tyres

so these should not touch the strutts even with 10 inch rims

the standard CSL rears measure 160.9 mm so thye clear the strutts easily but foul the wheel arch more becasue more of the tyre is set out (hence the reason for an et30-32 being best)

_Nathan_

30-10-2009, 07:13 PM

Could always take a look at the speedlines that the Torquespeed car is running?

Thorney

30-10-2009, 08:01 PM

The problem is I can not find a wheel manufacturer that make such a size wheel lol

This is what we developed with Rays, IMO ultimate spec for race/track wheels in terms of offsets and set up (whole process took 9 months of work).

http://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/products/images/RAYS-TE37SILVER.jpg

Front 18/8.5/35 (run with optional 10mm spacer depending on track and conditions)

Rear 18/9.5/22

Remember going to wider rim will add weight ( it does make a difference, I can tell how my car drives from Rays to pro Race 1.2's even with same tyres on)

Tyre deformation is in part due to wheel width for sure but camber is also a major difference, run max on Dunlops.

We even have a set in stock ;)

_Nathan_

30-10-2009, 08:16 PM

shane@mbtech

30-10-2009, 09:37 PM

I looked at the rays in the offsets I wanted but too much money as I needed at least 6 of them. 9.5 is the best wheel size I think, a set of Rays 9.5 all round with spacers on the rear and 250/640/18 all round would be perfect :D

Running the pro race 1.2 18 x 9 all round, I felt the rear needs spacers.

Ive not measured the track, but from eye it looks narrower than the front. Ill measure it to be sure, but im defo running spacers on the rear. with 265 35 18 all round.

One thing to consider when talking about offsets, widths etc, saying it wont touch the arch or the strut, the style of the rim has to be taken into consideration,

shimmy

30-10-2009, 09:54 PM

Could always take a look at the speedlines that the Torquespeed car is running?

will do

This is what we developed with Rays, IMO ultimate spec for race/track wheels in terms of offsets and set up (whole process took 9 months of work).

Front 18/8.5/35 (run with optional 10mm spacer depending on track and conditions)

Rear 18/9.5/22

;)

John, i think we all are looking for one rim for all 4 corners mainly for track work so we can use one tyre and swap them round

I looked at the rays in the offsets I wanted but too much money as I needed at least 6 of them. 9.5 is the best wheel size I think, a set of Rays 9.5 all round with spacers on the rear and 250/640/18 all round would be perfect :D

yep, only trouble with Rays is the off puting nature of the initial price (and also then getting all the Evo drivers trying to rob them on trackdays)

Running the pro race 1.2 18 x 9 all round, I felt the rear needs spacers.

,

def any rim/tyre combo on same froint and rear rims will need rear spacers to look sensible due to the difference in original offsets

glendog74

30-10-2009, 11:53 PM

I prefer this et...

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/3786/ettheextraterrestrial8.jpg

:clown:

_Nathan_

31-10-2009, 12:07 AM

But pink yeah?

Nords

31-10-2009, 12:13 AM

never mind after them, I deffo want them, just been busy!!!! Gotta pick up my new daily $hitter from near you next weekend, so will probably get them then mate :thumbs:

Arhhhhhh, I'm doing the Phil Price rally thing on Sat and then Remembrance Sunday in uniform Sunday!....

shane@mbtech

31-10-2009, 10:03 AM

I prefer this et...

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/3786/ettheextraterrestrial8.jpg

:clown:
#

So thats what a young glendog looks like, :smokin:

shimmy

01-11-2009, 08:51 PM

Summary so far;

Ray TE37 18x10 - 8.6kgs
TD Pro Race 1.3 18x19 - 11.75kg

Ray TE37 19x9.5 - 9.5kgs
BMW CSL 19x9.5 - 11.5kgs

So the 18 inch TD rims would be a better fit than the CSL wheels on the front as you could get the offset right and probably miss the wheel arch but they are no weight saving over CSL rims.

TE37 19 and 18 inch rims would save between 2 and 2.5 kgs per corner respectively (not unsubstantial) but cost alot more money.

Easiest option at first is to try the CSL rear rims on the front i guess to see what difference the extra rubber gives first and this at least means i have the tyres and rims so no need to spend for the test outing.

Issue therefore i guess is how to get the CSL rims under the wheel arch which comes down to more neg camber.:supz:

ANYBODY GOT ONE SPARE REAR CSL RIM FOR SALE

_Nathan_

02-11-2009, 07:57 AM

I got 6 18x10 1.3s and including all the packaging (each one separately packaged) the whole shipment came in at 66kg? (will weigh a single wheel soon).

Thorney

02-11-2009, 09:28 AM

Rays certainly aren't cheap I grant you, we make naff all on them so I cant afford to stock them in high numbers so leadtimes are long too. Good news is that they are strong, 2 full seasons on my car and other than surface damage from contact they are good as new and balance up nicely.

_Nathan_

02-11-2009, 10:46 AM

And they look the bollocks too, not quite up with the BBS E88 IMO but certainly close!

alexk

02-11-2009, 11:52 AM

And they look the bollocks too, not quite up with the BBS E88 IMO but certainly close!

How much are these in 19" and 18" ?

Thank you please.

The Gorilla

02-11-2009, 09:34 PM

Hi,

These are quite good wheels, reasonably priced
and the 18 x 9.5 et 20 all round would enable
wheels/ tyres to be rotated for track use.

www.driftworks.com/catalog/categories/wheels-bmw-fitment-wheels.html

They are quite light as well, and very strong.

Colleague ran them on his E36 GTR Track car and
was well pleased with them for the money.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

_Nathan_

02-11-2009, 09:40 PM

I have heard bad things about them for track use? Basically copies of other peoples wheels and not very strong? Only what I'd read, they appeared on my radar when I was looking.

shimmy

02-11-2009, 09:46 PM

_Nathan_

02-11-2009, 10:15 PM

git ;)

The Gorilla

02-11-2009, 10:17 PM

Hi,

The Guy with the E36 GTR ran them for
about 9 months before he sold the Car.

He used to Race in Endurance Races ,
and ran a set of these wheels with full slicks
on his E36 GTR Track Car with no issues
that I am aware of.

He was no slouch in that Car either.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

shane@mbtech

02-11-2009, 10:38 PM

Gorilla

Id also hard that the Rota wheels were soem of the better replicas but still not sure id trust them on track even if i dont push minethat hard....... I can see why Nathan might not wnat them as they dont like the extra weight apparently ;)

In the states alot of the guys use Apex ARC-8 rims, similar to Pro Race 1.3 i think

A lot of he evo lads run rotas, on big power track cars, I had a set on one my evo's, i did not track that one but they stood up to road abuse with no issues.

Gorilla, any idea what they weigh?????

shimmy

02-11-2009, 10:44 PM

http://www.rotashop.co.uk/?gclid=CMLjs_Gw7Z0CFWlr4wodTwhVMA

thye have a big selection of replicas

Rota drift weigh 9.5kg each, £850 for 4 18x9.5 approx

shane@mbtech

02-11-2009, 10:53 PM

http://www.rotashop.co.uk/?gclid=CMLjs_Gw7Z0CFWlr4wodTwhVMA

thye have a big selection of replicas

Rota drift weigh 9.5kg each, £850 for 4 18x9.5 approx

I might be guineau pig;)

shimmy

02-11-2009, 10:56 PM

I might be guineau pig;)

check out this uk site

only trouble might be et20 only for 18x9.5J E46 versions

http://www.rarerims.co.uk/alloys_sub2.asp?id=77&SubCategoryID=22&RangeID=77

shane@mbtech

02-11-2009, 11:12 PM

check out this uk site

only trouble might be et20 only for 18x9.5J E46 versions

http://www.rarerims.co.uk/alloys_sub2.asp?id=77&SubCategoryID=22&RangeID=77

What reason do you see the et20 being a problem shimmy?

shimmy

02-11-2009, 11:17 PM

What reason do you see the et20 being a problem shimmy?

well my calcs (bear in mind i am new to this stuff) show that my rear CSL rim 19x9.5 et27 if put on the front will foul the arch if a camber of say -3 is not used

Now if you bring the et down to 20, thats 7mm further out which means it will foul even worse unless a -3+ camber is used, god knows how much

but saying that Nathan is using et14 but i guess he will run a massive camber for race circa -4/5 anyway

:smokin:

The Gorilla

03-11-2009, 09:01 AM

shimmy

03-11-2009, 09:12 AM

Hi,

Shimmy- just my quick calcs before I dash out.

Some guys run the rear CSL rims on the
fronts which are 9.5 J ET 25 if I remember.

So at ET 20 your 5mm more ET would push the
rim out about 2/3mm more.

At around 3.5 to 4 degrees camber an
an ET 20 9.5 J rim might need the standard
front arch lips well rolled, but it should
go.

The gain in extra O/A track width on the front
will also help turn in but the trade off, and there
always is, that front tyre scrub radius will increase.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

Gorilla

Thanks but it is def worse than that as OEM rears are et27 (fronts et45). The difference between et20 and et27 is a straight 7mm as the face of the wheel hub is moving 7mm one way. Therefore the ROTA rears on the front will foul the arch by 7mm more than OEM rears, so i am not sure if they will fit without rolling arhces or even with:whistle:

The Gorilla

03-11-2009, 12:09 PM

Hi,

Shimmy- I can see what your saying
but I was working on the basis that
the standard CSL fronts at the tyres-

235 35 19 and pending on which make of tyre
are O/A Diam of 647mm.

265 35 18 and again pending on which make of tyre,
Diam of 642.7mm.

Even allowing for the increase in the ET
the O/A diam is almost 5mm less, so
rolling the arch should make it work ?

While on this subject has anybody ever run
17s with say a 40 profile side wall and then
firmed the suspension right up tight for track
work ?

A 265 40 17 comes in at 643.8 mm so O/A
Diam is good, and increased side wall profile
gives a little 'suspension' via the tyre to compensate
for the harder damper setting, and I think a car would
ride much better in the corners due to the tyre side
wall compensating and assisting for the progressive roll in and
then out again for good cornering, while being a bit stiffer
for the straights.

This is very much akin to current F1 suspension.

Although 30/25 and even 20 profile tyres might
look the dogs, any surface change is more or
less transmitted straight to the suspension as the
the tyre side wall has such a small margin
from which it is able to absorb.

Also explains in part why the majority of 18'' slicks
go 650 upwards.
Porsche are 650 fronts and 670 rears I think,
and they handle OK ishhhhh.

I ran 230 625 18 slicks once on a
e30 m3 and it was bloody awful.

Always looking at the inner wheel beading
and the way the tyre is located to the rim
for Track Wheels, as if the tyre starts rotating
on the rim, which can and does occur it will
cause untold issues.

Regards,

The Gorilla.

_Nathan_

03-11-2009, 01:01 PM

17s won't fit over the brakes will they?

shimmy

03-11-2009, 01:23 PM

17s won't fit over the brakes will they?

def not over APs,

not sure about stock brakes but you wouldnt want to be on track with those anyway :smokin:

_Nathan_

03-11-2009, 02:19 PM

Shame because the BMW BBS WTCC 17 inch wheels come up regularly and are cheap :D

shimmy

12-11-2009, 05:25 PM

UPDATE

at Simpsons yesterday i got the geo redone and test fitted and ran some CSL rear rims on the front.

We had to get the geo out to -3 camber at the front to get he tyre under the arch. It just touches the wheel arch liner on full lock but seems to miss everywhere else, especially on track damper settings.

Need to test it at the next dry trackday before deciding if its worth getting 4x 19x9.5 (or18x9.5). At the moment with the et27 the rim is 5mm further off the shock then OEm front rim so i can go 5mm back in therefore my estimate of a new front with et32 is about right

With an et32 you should be able to run at -3 camber on track and even maybe -2 camber on road witht he same 4 rims all round.

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp97/shimmylasco/CSL/CSLrearshotnov09.jpg

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp97/shimmylasco/CSL/CSLfrontshotnov09.jpg

TANKSLAPPER

12-11-2009, 06:43 PM

I've just changed my wheels and tyres over

On the rear I run currently BBS ch's 19 x 10j et20 with 265 cups

On the front I just bought BBS ch's 19 x 9.5 et40 with a 12mm spacer which is = to an et28 with 265 cups

I must say, it look the dog bollocks. The tyre is about 2mm outside the front wheel arch with a 2.5 dergrees of camber. I only have 2-3mm between the strut and the tyre.

A very tight fit, if it rubs on track I will increase the spacer size. I reckon this is the best fit for 19" s it's a petty BBS don't do them in 18" in 9.5j

I will put some photo's up over the next day or so.

Bealo

12-11-2009, 08:04 PM

Great R&D guys :thumbs:

I'm watching this with great interest.

shimmy

12-11-2009, 10:05 PM

I must say, it look the dog bollocks. The tyre is about 2mm outside the front wheel arch with a 2.5 dergrees of camber. I only have 2-3mm between the strut and the tyre.

A very tight fit, if it rubs on track I will increase the spacer size. I reckon this is the best fit for 19" s it's a petty BBS don't do them in 18" in 9.5j

I will put some photo's up over the next day or so.

sounds real close to me. be careful and if you see any black smoke STOP

what is the gap like between the strut and tyre at the front? OEM runs about 5mm away. My guess is you need more clearance to the arch so see if you can reduce the spacer as you dont wanna run any more camber on road really, as -2.5 will shag the tyres pretty quick anyway

i might come by your place next month and see how it looks if thats ok, maybe after a visit to Racoon and Brands:thumbs:

TANKSLAPPER

12-11-2009, 10:36 PM

i might come by your place next month and see how it looks if thats ok, maybe after a visit to Racoon and Brands:thumbs:

Shimmy, You are always welcome at my place, just pm me first.

:thumbs:

TANKSLAPPER

13-11-2009, 01:21 PM

Here's a photo ofthe BBS ch's 19 x 10j et20

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc311/IAIN830/wheelclearance001.jpg

Here's a photo of BBS ch's 19 x 9.5j et28

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc311/IAIN830/WHEELS012.jpg

you can see the difference, both have 265 cups on. The second picture is just road legal AND A mot pass. As the other, well, your nicked LOL

shimmy

13-11-2009, 04:28 PM

Here's a photo of BBS ch's 19 x 9.5j et28

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc311/IAIN830/WHEELS012.jpg

the 9.5J look spot on, i think you missed a trick not getting 9.5J all round making tyre wear and wheel swap dead easy (although you loose that 0.5 inch of rear grip)

Bealo

13-11-2009, 04:36 PM

So am i correct in saying that the ideal size is 19 x 9.5 et28 all round with 265/30/19 cup tyres???

Look forward to hearing your comments of the extra grip at the front on trackdays. :thumbs:

shimmy

13-11-2009, 04:50 PM

So am i correct in saying that the ideal size is 19 x 9.5 et28 all round with 265/30/19 cup tyres???

Look forward to hearing your comments of the extra grip at the front on trackdays. :thumbs:

NO not in my opinion

IF you want one size all round on my car (intrax and camber -2 and -3) i would say that ideal size is 19x9.5J et32 with the 265 cups.

This would put the rubber back to the same point 5mm away from the damper (same as OEM front rim) and give you maximum clearance on the arch. It may mean that it is enough for you to run them on the road and adjust the camber to -2

The et28 is very clsoe to OEM rears et27 and is very close to the arch, a little rubbing on max lock and be very wary on the ring and road with big compressions. Also not sure how soft or OEM suspension would cope as it wil travel further.

Quite a few variables though so def worth borrowing some rims and seeing how they work before you buy

Bedofrd Monday should be my trial with the rear CSL rims all round. (you coming BEalo?)

TANKSLAPPER

13-11-2009, 05:36 PM

the 9.5J look spot on, i think you missed a trick not getting 9.5J all round making tyre wear and wheel swap dead easy (although you loose that 0.5 inch of rear grip)

I already had the two 10J ch's, I will test the new 9.5J on the front first then on the back with a wider spacers. If it works I will buy another two 9.5J then I can swap them around.

daniel

15-11-2009, 11:36 AM

Tankslapper - Are those photos with the clubsport coilover? Do you get any rubbing anywhere with the 265/35 tyres

TANKSLAPPER

15-11-2009, 11:45 AM

Tankslapper - Are those photos with the clubsport coilover? Do you get any rubbing anywhere with the 265/35 tyres

Yes there with KW clubsport coilover. their is no rubbing but I have not been on track yet.

The cup tyre size I'm using is 19 x 265/30

daniel

15-11-2009, 03:43 PM

Thanks for the feedback. I am going to try with tyres that have 2cm larger diameter which maybe an issue.

TANKSLAPPER

15-11-2009, 05:49 PM

Thanks for the feedback. I am going to try with tyres that have 2cm larger diameter which maybe an issue.

That will be an issue, sorry.

daniel

15-11-2009, 05:54 PM

That will be an issue, sorry.

Not good. I thought some people got away with 265/35/19 or even 255/40/18 which are pretty much the same diameter.

alexk

28-11-2009, 09:11 AM

Do you think I stand a chance if I put 19x8.5 ET20 in the front ?

shimmy

28-11-2009, 09:17 AM

Do you think I stand a chance if I put 19x8.5 ET20 in the front ?

so same as standard except 25mm less offset and therefore pushed 25mm further out to the wheel arch. Based on the fact that with 15mm+ spacers the tyre seems to foul the arches my guess is on standard geo you will not be able to do this on road.:bigcry:

You may just squeeze the on with 3 deg neg camber for track work!!:thumbs:

TANKSLAPPER

28-11-2009, 09:34 AM

I run BBS ch's 19 x 8.5 x et35 with a 12mm spacer on the front which is = to et23 with no problems at all.

The tyre & the wheel was inside of the front arch so 3mm more wouldn't make any difference.

The only down side is pushing the inside of the wheel a further out by 25mm over standard makes the car dart around particularly over bumps as it put more leverage on the steering and it tramp lines more.

shimmy

28-11-2009, 10:02 AM

TANKSLAPPER

28-11-2009, 10:38 AM

what camber though TS?

I normally run 2.25 for the road and 3 degrees on track.

I did find with the increased off set on the 8.5j and running 3 degrees camber fooked the inner edge of the front tyres. I put this down too more movement on the wishbones / bushes due to the increased leverage.

My advice is to keep the wheel close to the strut as possible, but increased the width, this should put less stress on the wheel bearing as well.

The tyre wear was was mainly under hard braking where the deflection is greater.

shimmy

28-11-2009, 11:15 AM

I run BBS ch's 19 x 8.5 x et35 with a 12mm spacer on the front which is = to et23 with no problems at all.

.

really surprised by this. cant see how it doesn't foul the liner or arch

TANKSLAPPER

28-11-2009, 11:35 AM

really surprised by this. cant see how it doesn't foul the liner or arch

All the above is with cup tyres

I did find differences between wheels. ie OEM BBS CSL wheel ie 19 x 9.5 et27 had a clearance between the wheel and the strut of 7mm, but BBS CH'S 19 X 9.5 et 28 only had 3mm between the wheel and the strut.

shimmy

28-11-2009, 01:41 PM

almost sounds like the et for the BBS CH is wrong!!

shimmy

28-11-2009, 04:27 PM

Managed today to sort out my car and remove my track wheels, check them all over and put back on road pads and wheels for the winter.

From my recent outing at Bedford trying out rear CSL rims up front i can report the following;

1. Running 9.5Jx19 rims with 265/30 Cups up front with -3 camber on track suspension setting clears the arch

2. I did notice (see pics) minorubbing of the arch liner but that when checked was from slow speed max lock turns in the pit area.

3. No excessive wear of the tyres

4. The car did feel like it was gripping better on turn in and the data logger seemed to back that up although it does need some more runs in constant good weather to back this up

5. I did notice however the slightly heavier or maybe grippier front wheel as soon as i got in!!

The pics below show the minor rubbing and the before and after look of the car.

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp97/shimmylasco/CSL/IMG_4778.jpg

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp97/shimmylasco/CSL/IMG_4771.jpghttp://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp97/shimmylasco/CSL/IMG_4780.jpg

TANKSLAPPER

28-11-2009, 06:34 PM

I got the same as that on full lock, but I don't call it rubbing. I only call rubber to metal rubbing. lol

Just put the heat gun on the liner and stretch it or take out the liner, sorted. !

Forelli

18-02-2010, 09:04 PM

Very interesting thread, thanks for all the insightfull information.

Am I right to assume that CSL and M3 geometry is exactly same? If so, then something I have gathered from other M3 forums is that square 18*9,5 et 35 with 265/35 and 10mm spacer back is an ideal setup for spirited driving (track/street), also allows for swapping around wheels.

I myself am driving with some widelip supadupa heavy blings, but am going for light & wide (&cheap)wheels for next season (the 19" blings are now my winter wheels...)

I have put my eyes on tirerack Motorsport MT1 wheels, which I like stylewise, but problem is I havent found them for sale anywhere in europe. (doable with streetable camber -2 to-2,5) Can take up to 275/285 tires and no spacers needed.

Specs 18*9,5 et 35 19lbs 319$ and/or 18*10 et25 20lbs 329$
http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/WheelCloseUpServlet?target=runWheelSearch&initialPartNumber=MT188544520MG&wheelMake=TRMotorsport&wheelModel=MT1&wheelFinish=Matte+Grey&showRear=yes&selectedRear=MT189535520MG&autoMake=BMW&autoModel=M3+Coupe&autoYear=2002&autoModClar=&filterSize=18&filterFinish=All&filterSpecial=false&filterBrand=All&filterNew=All&sort=Brand
http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu343/e46bhp/004-1.jpg

Then I know people are running Enkei NT03 wheels square (needs if I recal correctly atleast -3 camber) Can be found in Europe

Specs 18*10 et 25 20,5lbs 279£
http://www.performancealloys.com/details.asp?procedure=wheel&id_wheels='NT03%20M%20F1%20Silver'&id_wheels_manufacturers='Enkei'&id_wheels_sizes='18x10'&price='279'&permission=564347317

Then there is ofcourse the D-force LTW5 wheel for which looks I am not too fond of, but can also be found in europe.

Specs 18*9,5 et35 18,5lbs

Does anyone have anyexperiences with any of these wheels? Does anyone know if anyone sells MT1 in europe?

DuncanR

18-02-2010, 09:24 PM

thought about slicks last year Hazy but my car is road spec and no cage and once you see the extra cornering G forces caused when using slicks and then translate that into the extra speed you are likely to hit a wall then i decided then and there;

2. No Slicks without cage

to go along with my previous rule;

1. No Ring laps without cage

:thumbs:

might be worth it at Bedford but really dodgy at Brands, Oulton or Silverstone

Mmmmmm you do have a serious side mate ...but I like your thinking, and wise words.:thumbs:

shimmy

19-02-2010, 07:42 PM

Does anyone have anyexperiences with any of these wheels? Does anyone know if anyone sells MT1 in europe?

no, not personally

im sure youll find MT1 in Europe and if not the US suppliers willship for you for sure. They were very keen to ship me my rims even though they came from Japan!:thumbs:

shimmy

19-02-2010, 07:43 PM

Mmmmmm you do have a serious side mate ...

just creeps out there sometimes (at work i am a bastard!)

alexk

16-01-2013, 11:57 PM

Managed today to sort out my car and remove my track wheels, check them all over and put back on road pads and wheels for the winter.

From my recent outing at Bedford trying out rear CSL rims up front i can report the following;

1. Running 9.5Jx19 rims with 265/30 Cups up front with -3 camber on track suspension setting clears the arch

2. I did notice (see pics) minorubbing of the arch liner but that when checked was from slow speed max lock turns in the pit area.

3. No excessive wear of the tyres

4. The car did feel like it was gripping better on turn in and the data logger seemed to back that up although it does need some more runs in constant good weather to back this up

5. I did notice however the slightly heavier or maybe grippier front wheel as soon as i got in!!

The pics below show the minor rubbing and the before and after look of the car.

I am going to get a new set of CSL wheels this year.
I am considering getting 4 x rears.
shimmy can you provide some update about it ? Is it worth it ?

Also, do you have any other pics of your car with the 4 x rear CSL wheels ?

shimmy

17-01-2013, 12:11 AM

I am going to get a new set of CSL wheels this year.
I am considering getting 4 x rears.
shimmy can you provide some update about it ? Is it worth it ?

Also, do you have any other pics of your car with the 4 x rear CSL wheels ?

That was only time I used them Alex, the tramlining at -3 on the road is a pain

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp97/shimmylasco/CSL/IMG_4780.jpg