AP Racing vs. Brembo monoblock

[alexk]

Hi guys,

Next year (yes, I am always planning early) I want to upgrade the brakes of my car.
I was thinking about the brembo GT calipers with slotted discs. 380mm in the front and 345mm in the rear.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/image/brakes/brembo/brembo_monoblock_cal_med.gif

On the other hand, I see many of you are using the AP racing kit which is much cheaper.
What would you recommend ?
Is any running the kit I mentioned with the Brembo GT calipers ?

PS : I don't like the alcon brakes or any other brake kit :banghead:

[Ade]

PS : I don't like the alcon brakes or any other brake kit :banghead:

why not?

[sailorbaz]

A guy Robin from the Pistonheads Forum was using them on his M3. Don't know how much spirited driving he was doing with them but they did look sh1t hot!

RobinH20Rv or something his username was. Had a nice 997 Turbo for a while, don't know what he's got now though.

[KenM3csl]

I think you need spacers for the brembo set

[alexk]

why not?

I am strange plus I live in CH and if you go to Swiss TUV you will freak out.
It's like an operation room.
If the brakes won't have TUV paper, I need to do it from scratch with the TUV.

Well, I saw your post and I was checking again the CSLcup brakes.
Hm, any feedback for them ?

I think you need spacers for the brembo set

That doesn't sound good.

[Ade]

I am strange plus I live in CH and if you go to Swiss TUV you will freak out.
It's like an operation room.
If the brakes won't have TUV paper, I need to do it from scratch with the TUV.

Well, I saw your post and I was checking again the CSLcup brakes.
Hm, any feedback for them ?


I haven't asked for TUV papers, but the 'CSL Cup' brakes are the Mono6 and Mono4 calipers Alcon have been making for quite some time for numerous other cars (including the WRC Subarus etc). They are also sold as a common brake kit upgrade for numerous other cars on the open retail market, so getting a certificate of conformity is not going to be difficult. Alcon remain one of the largest brake manufacturers.

Performance wise? The hardware is as robust/solid as they come. Braking performance is up there with the best and will test the grip of MPSCs on a dry day. Tyres are, at the end of the day, the limiting factor in braking.

DON'T use Ferodo DS2500s for anything other than normal road use. (I found this out at the recent 'Ring trip :banghead:), contrary to what anyone may tell you.

Pagid brake pads are the way to go (yes, I am a supplier of them). RS29s are the pad of choice for fast road/track day use.

In the long term, I can only relate to the same Alcons I used on my GT3. The discs were faultless in performance and lasted 30k+ miles and dozens of trackdays from Hockenheim to UK circuits before they needed changing.

Alcons - good enough for WRC teams and FIA GT, good enough for us.

And Alcons don't need spacers.

[david]

both are knowed to be good on all points after is there a big difference on the track?? I don't know. You're country is a nightmare with the rules and TüV and soo on.... for that...:banghead:

[alexk]

Ade > I am running RS29 in the stock brakes and I am quite happy with them. In the beginning I was annoyed by the squeaking, but I applied some anti-squeak cream and the noise is much less (plus I got used to it and I now find the sound sexy).
I would be interested to know what is the weight of the 6-piston caliper and disc used in the CSLcup brakes.

You are putting me in trouble, I will go to the strassenverkehrsamt (yeap, that's the word for the TUV) to ask them what we will need to do if I buy the alcon brakes.

Many thanks for your answers guys.

Maybe John Thorne could help with the weight figures :thumbs:

[Ade]

:hahaha: I never get people in trouble! :thumbs:

Weight wise, best to ask John. Or do a search on some of the US forums where people have also fitted the Alcons. Don't forget that the Alcons run 365mm/343mm discs which are larger than the AP/PF equivalents.

Caliper wise, I held the AP and Alcons in my hands before fitment, and there seemed to be nothing noticeable between them in terms of weight.

But the Alcons are monoblock and they are crafted/finished veeeery nicely :drool:

For fast road/Ring and track days, I honestly don't think you will notice any difference in weight between the APs and Alcons.

[alexk]

I found the weight here -> http://www.alcon.co.uk/brakes_clutches_catalogue_small.pdf

3.5kg for the front caliper. Very good.

[david]

Not bad, I just had a look about the AP

6kg for the caliper 6 pots (with braker and pads + brake line)
and 10.4kg for the 378mm x 36mm rotor

http://i82.servimg.com/u/f82/11/72/83/81/p7260110.jpg

http://i82.servimg.com/u/f82/11/72/83/81/p8050110.jpg

http://i82.servimg.com/u/f82/11/72/83/81/p8050111.jpg

[danr55]

Is there an option of either 356mm or 378mm discs for the APs? I seem to have seen people refer to both.

Ade, why do you find the ferodos so bad, just interested as I know there's mixed reviews on them?

[david]

I dont know if you can have option between 365 or 378, this AP kit a have, is referenced for M3 E92 V8, I'm pretty confident to get it easely fixed to my E46 Csl soon. we will see ;)

[XPorker]

My previous experiences with Ferodo DS2500 pads found them "wanting" under duress . . . .
I think they're a fast road pad rather than an endurance race pad like the RS29s. The DS 3000 is a far superior pad, but isn't kind to discs or wheels.
No such problems with RS 29s, (though they squealed when fitted to the AP four pots on the rear of the car) I therefore ditched them and now run RS29s in the front (six pot) calipers and DS 2500 in the rears.

So if anyone wants a set of RS29s to fit the rear AP four pot conversion I have a set that's done less than a thousand miles. PM me.

[shimmy]

did you know BREMBO own AP RACING:thumbs:

[david]

I find the setup with Pagid RS5/DS2500 front/rear or RS29 front/ DS 2500 rear excellent, the DS3000 are too agressive for the rotor and they melt fast and get rotten in a year with a few good trackdays...

[shimmy]

with my extensive testing (sort of) i find that RS14 front and DS2500 rears are the best road/track pad combination

if only track being done then Rs29 or PF01 may beat the Rs14 due to longer lasting and squeaking not relevant

i agree that you should avoid using DS2500 on the FRONT on track days due to pad deposits and avoid using Ds3000 all together due to corrosive effect on rims

[Ade]

i agree that you should avoid using DS2500 on the FRONT on track days due to pad deposits

That's exactly it.

The DS2500s practically melted themselves onto the discs under use at the 'Ring. And before people start saying I was braking too hard, perhaps, but Glendog can attest we weren't hanging around.

I'm now having to clean the pad deposits slowly off the discs :banghead::banghead::banghead:

The DS2500s are ok for road use, but they are definitely NOT up to the task of repeated full force braking on track when 'going for it'.

No such problems at all with the RS29s which are a proper race spec pad.

[danr55]

That's exactly it.

The DS2500s practically melted themselves onto the discs under use at the 'Ring. And before people start saying I was braking too hard, perhaps, but Glendog can attest we weren't hanging around.

I'm now having to clean the pad deposits slowly off the discs :banghead::banghead::banghead:

The DS2500s are ok for road use, but they are definitely NOT up to the task of repeated full force braking on track when 'going for it'.

No such problems at all with the RS29s which are a proper race spec pad.

Appreciate the feedback will take it into account when it's upgrade time :thumbs:

[glendog74]

Glendog can attest we weren't hanging around.


:whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

Agree with all comments about DS2500 - fine for road but pushed to their limits during hard track use.

I use RS29's all-round at the moment coz my car has been a bit of a track whore of late... :hahaha:

[Mark CSL]

Well i am a tight scot and the EBC redstuff do fine and not a lot of brake dust
i am trying the yellow pads this sat at knockhill i shall see if they are better
than the red pads :thumbs: full set costs £122.00 Bargin

The DS2500 i had on were not worth the money :banghead:
I have a set of the 3000 but not used them yet :whistle:

[sailorbaz]

I had EBC Red Stuff 'Ceramic' on my E36 Evo and they destroyed the discs in no time. The pads are fantastic when hot, hellishly hellish when cold, I mean, NO BRAKES! However, as mentioned they did destroy my standard discs, worth a pop though.

[SMD]

How much dose the CSL Cup Brake Kit cost?

[scansp7]

Did anyone ever find out about the TÃœV papers for the Alcon CSL Cup kit?

[select]

Imho still not a walk in the park to get them TÃœV approved.:bigcry:
Best to ask Alcon directly.

Where are you from?

[B0rJarZz M.]

i have both kits.

Alcon weights 3.7kg each caliper (horror)
AP CP5555 weights 2.9kg (Painted)

AP cheaper than Brembo and Alcon and a lot of less unsprung weight.

The M3 E46 don't need more than 355mm anyways...

Also i got 380mm brembo discs and weights 10.XXkg each.

[select]

Interesting, thanks borjarzz.

[alexk]

i have both kits.

Alcon weights 3.7kg each caliper (horror)
AP CP5555 weights 2.9kg (Painted)

AP cheaper than Brembo and Alcon and a lot of less unsprung weight.

The M3 E46 don't need more than 355mm anyways...

Also i got 380mm brembo discs and weights 10.XXkg each.

The 380mm brembo discs weight is 9.5kgs and not 10+.
What is the weight of the AP racing caliper with the pads ?

My brembo monoblocs with pads are 5.2 and I am pretty sure they are lighter than the AP racing with pads.

See here -> http://www.cslregister.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10735&page=6

[phoenixcsl]

Alex, how you finding the Brembo's? I always wanted to get the 380mm versions on mine, i've got the 355mm Brembo GT BBK front and rear on mine and they are superb

[alexk]

I think they are great.
I don't have any complaints.
The caliper is exactly the same used for the E92 M3 GTS and E90 M3 CRT.

I would have preferred the 355mm version but it was not an option for me, as the 355mm does not have certification for road use, while the 380mm has.

[B0rJarZz M.]

The 380mm brembo discs weight is 9.5kgs and not 10+.
What is the weight of the AP racing caliper with the pads ?

My brembo monoblocs with pads are 5.2 and I am pretty sure they are lighter than the AP racing with pads.

See here -> http://www.cslregister.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10735&page=6

Pads weight 1,075kg.

https://s24.postimg.org/synkrm6v9/Whats_App_Image_2017_01_03_at_09_24_45.jpg

Sorry, i was wrong, the 380's Brembo that i have weights 9.0kg (10.1kg is the original disc 360x30 from E92 M3)

https://s28.postimg.org/6gq1slqal/WhatsApp_Image_2017_01_03_at_09_20_17.jpg

https://s28.postimg.org/6s7i5d6ql/WhatsApp_Image_2017_01_03_at_09_20_17_(1).jpg

[alexk]

When I had measured my AP Racing CP5555 with the carriers, they were 3.85kg.
I find the 2.9kg very light.

Also, the 9.0kgs for the brembo drilled discs sounds good.
Mine are slotted (more material) and they are 9.5kgs.

[B0rJarZz M.]

When I had measured my AP Racing CP5555 with the carriers, they were 3.85kg.
I find the 2.9kg very light.

Also, the 9.0kgs for the brembo drilled discs sounds good.
Mine are slotted (more material) and they are 9.5kgs.

Caliper is caliper, and bracket is bracket. AP Caliper CP5555 goes between 2.9 and 3.1kg depends on the finish. ;)

I dont know the brackets weight.