CSL vs. 996 GT3

[m33ufo]

Hi guys,

Just hoping for some opinions really. I've areed a deal on a nice low mileage CSL (6750) which has unfortunately been delayed a few weeks by the current owner. This has now got me looking at other cars - kind of inevitable really, I've had £40K in my bank account for a few weeks now waiting to find a new home!

If I stick with the CSL then I'm happy to wait for the car I've agreed a deal on...but...I keep seeing GT3's! Has anyone owned both CSL and GT3?




http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1077741.htm

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1121792.htm

[Ade]

Yes, I owned a 996GT3 for over 3 years and 30k+ miles. Modded pretty much everything on it during that time courtesy of Manthey and it was a razor sharp track-focussed scalpel when I sold it earlier this year. Out went the GT3, in came the CSL.

I think it depends on what you want to do with the car. The 6Gt3 is a brilliant tool. But I think it is very hard to fall in love with, in the same way the CSL rewards you instantly. The GT3 is all about precision driving, eeking out the fastest and smoothest lines, perfecting your braking approaching the apex, and modulating the throttle at and through the apex. It rewards you in 0.01s against the clock. The GT3 also gives you the sense of occasion on road trips and bragging rights in the paddock... something you never really get with the CSL. If you are chasing 10/10ths on track, relish the attention on the road and in the paddock, then the GT3 is tops (apart from going the Lambo/Fezza route)

But the CSL is, by far, the most fun car I've ever owned! For one, it's understated. SG/SB is about as exciting the colours get, and for most on the road, it's just another 3-series. Flying undercover, imho, is a good thing - especially in this market. The CSL rewards you instantly on track - you can pitch is sideways, in the dry, in the wet, and get away with it. It is easy to drive at 9/10ths (easier than the GT3), and it is the quicker car A-B in real world road conditions. In short, the CSL is an absolute HOOLIGAN! :)

On track, the GT3 at the limit is tricky - it will teach you how to drive again, steering from the rear, and using the mechanical grip/aero to your advantage. Underestimate it, or overestimate your abilities, and it will bite. Hard and fast.

Depending on how deep your pockets are, you will either find tracking 45k worth of GT3 painless or poor VFM compared to 25-30k of CSL. Especially when the CSL is good enough to give the GT3 a proper dogfight on most circuits (except on power circuits like Spa/Silverstone and if the circuit is clear). At the 'Ring, there is nothing in it except for driver ability. The CSL laps as quickly in pro hands as does the GT3.

On the road, for normal hooning around, the CSL is the better car imho. Add in occasional passengers/urban use etc, and it's a no brainer.

I don't miss the social attention of the GT3... but that's just me. Both cars are equally special - there are touches of the CSL that make it feel very very special. Hold out for the CSL imho

[m33ufo]

That pretty much answers my question :smt023

The CSL has easily given me the most enjoyable driving experience I've had to date - well almost, I had the use of an F360 for half a day purely on track about 3 years ago and I have to say it was stunning! No idea what driving one on the road would be like though.

I'll do my best to wait a few more weeks :)

[Jeff]

Hmmm, I'd probably swing the other way to Ade. Having just sold my GT3 and now having a CSL I miss the GT3. I find the CSL a little too "normal"? It's hard to explain, maybe it just does things too well? Yes it's a hoot, I've put it around the ring doing some hard laps on my first trip and I'd say it was as quick as the GT3 and was probably easier to get up to speed. The GT3 does require respect to drive as ham fisted driving will see you into a wall. Experimenting with the rear end in a GT3 should be done well away from fixed objects as they can be unpredicable - although I never personally found this.

My experience of the GT3 was overall positive, not scary and after I got over the odd feeling of the rear under braking I found it to be a weapon.

I think I just liked the 911 quirks but hey, that's why there is more than one brand of car...........

Cheers,
Jeff

[spanner]

It's pretty simple to me. If you need back seats, get a csl, if not, get a Porsche. It is by far the more special of the two imho. Although I have only driven the rs version!

[m33ufo]

I don't need rear seats, in fact just the 1 would do. Should I buy a single seater? ;)

I suppose this means I'll have to test drive the GT3. The Cobalt car in one of the links at the start of the thread is just a few miles from my office so I'll pop in a give it a spin. I'm sure I won't get the full effect but it will be a start.

[Jeff]

I don't need rear seats, in fact just the 1 would do. Should I buy a single seater? ;)

I suppose this means I'll have to test drive the GT3. The Cobalt car in the links at the start of the thread is just a few miles from my office so I'll pop in a give it a spin. I'm sure I won't get the full effect but it will be a start.

Make sure you rev it past 6000rpm when you do. It's not until then that the exhaust opens up fully and screams it head off! :)

Yes, test drive one. What you will feel is brakes that have little assistance but when pushed are amazing and steering that feeds back oodles of information. Don't be surprised if you think the front end feels light at first - it's a 911 thing that goes after time (ie, you get used to it). It's at least worth a try.........

[m33ufo]

Make sure you rev it past 6000rpm when you do. It's not until then that the exhaust opens up fully and screams it head off! :)

Yes, test drive one. What you will feel is brakes that have little assistance but when pushed are amazing and steering that feeds back oodles of information. Don't be surprised if you think the front end feels light at first - it's a 911 thing that goes after time (ie, you get used to it). It's at least worth a try.........

Will do....I've had 3 Boxsters (986, 987S and 987S 3.4) and a 996 C2 in the past so I know how the cars feel but it's probably like comparing an M3 with a CSL.

[Andyk]

I've driven a GT3 and loved it but did not have as much fun in it as the CSL but that maybe have been because I didn't get enough time behind the wheel and with the CSL you can jump and enjoy almost straight away.

I think for me the other thing would be looks and the GT3 MRK2 is just not as good looking as the MRK1...Think it's those lights.

Look forward to hearing your thougths.

[m33ufo]

......the GT3 MRK2 is just not as good looking as the MRK1...Think it's those lights.



Actually it's the opposite for me, I think the Mk1 front end looks much more dated than the Mk2.

[Ade]

Will do....I've had 3 Boxsters (986, 987S and 987S 3.4) and a 996 C2 in the past so I know how the cars feel but it's probably like comparing an M3 with a CSL.

There is a very significant difference between the GT3 and a normal 911 - more so than the difference between the M3 and CSL. Drivetrain, engine, suspension, arms, steering, etc is all completely different on the GT3 compared to the standard 911. Only the basic tub, interior, and chassis remains the same.

Also, be aware that maintenance of a 6-10 year old GT3 where things start going wrong is not going to be cheap and will make a BMW warrantied CSL look like a bargain. Around the 50k mile mark, there are a lot of less obvious items that start getting worn out needing replacement. Bushes, driveshafts, clutches, diffs, engine mounts, synchros, leaking dampers start getting tired. It is also highly unlikely that the 6GT3 will be covered by the [now ridiculous] Porsche extended warranty meaning you better have the wallet to fund the addiction. It's not surprising that there has been a significant turnover of GT3s this year in particular compared to the previous 2-3 years when most of the 996 GT3s were around the 20-40k mile mark. Just look at the number of newbie 996GT3 owners showing up on the various Porsche forums this year... They are all excited and rightfully so, but the reality is that compared to a new 996 or 997GT3, the current crop of cars are getting tired, expensive to maintain, and are being superceded by newer/faster/more desirable cars. You are, in truth, buying the dream and badge. Be very careful in buying... there are some real dogs out there lacking the maintenance required to keep them in top form.

Keep in mind that the new 3.8L 997GT3 mk2 just released has, imho, moved the game on more than any previous post-Mk1 6GT3. Even more serious a car, but it has genuine everyday usability AND the top end track manners to distance itself from the previous 3.6L GT3 that stayed top of the tree for the past 10 years. Porsche play a very clever game and evolution is the constant in the Porsche Arms Race.

[NZ_M3]

There is a very significant difference between the GT3 and a normal 911 - more so than the difference between the M3 and CSL. Drivetrain, engine, suspension, arms, steering, etc is all completely different on the GT3 compared to the standard 911. Only the basic tub, interior, and chassis remains the same.


I do believe the GT3 uses the 911 C4 chassis for more regidity?

[Ade]

I do believe the GT3 uses the 911 C4 chassis for more regidity?

Yes, that's true and why the front boot is smaller compared to other 2wd 996s as the C4 tub allowed space for the front differential that imtrudes into the front boot space. Early Mk1 GT3s had additional welding along certain seams to further increase strength. It was the most reliable GT3 made to date, and it also had things like a 3rd balancer shaft unlike the Mk2 onwards.

From the mk2 996Gt3 onwards, it was a mass produced car made on the same production line at Zuffenhausen as normal 911s. The mk1 6Gt3 was hand made at the old motorsport factory at Weissach alongside the GT3R, GT3 RS (Motorsport, not the common GT3 RS) and RSR. With the mass production of the Mk2 came a slight number of problems introduced through less strict QC on the production line. Sadly, the 997 GT3 is now just another mass produced vehicle and suffers from a high percentage of engine problems (mostly oil leaks) because of the crap QC :bigcry: Totally unacceptable imho in a 80-100k car.

[spanner]

Actually it's the opposite for me, I think the Mk1 front end looks much more dated than the Mk2.

I agree - I think the mk2 looks loads better than the mk1

[spanner]

I don't need rear seats, in fact just the 1 would do. Should I buy a single seater? ;)

I suppose this means I'll have to test drive the GT3. The Cobalt car in one of the links at the start of the thread is just a few miles from my office so I'll pop in a give it a spin. I'm sure I won't get the full effect but it will be a start.


tbh - if you are after a track car then yes!

I have a csl rather than a porker because it is my main car and I need rear seats for the kids when I need to take them somewhere.

The main purpose of the car is for Euro trips, Spa, Ring etc. I do the odd UK track day with it.

Absolutely nothing that weighs 1.4 tons can compare to a radical, caterham, atom, lotus 211 etc. as a track toy.

I have never tried a single seater by I rate caterhams about as highly as anything as a pure toy. A far purer, harder hit than a Porsche or a csl could ever give.

Don't get me wrong, the csl & GT3's are awesome on track and I rate them very highly. They are immensly capable for what they are. But they will always be barges due to their weight! Also very expensive to run regularly on track compared to a lighweight nail.

[Ade]

Don't get me wrong, the csl & GT3's are awesome on track and I rate them very highly. They are immensly capable for what they are. But they will always be barges due to their weight! Also very expensive to run regularly on track compared to a lighweight nail.

True on the cost. BUT Caterfields/Atoms etc are a PITA for anything other than dry and sunny trackdays within an hour of home. Which pretty much rules out Euro trips. Unless you wanted to trailer... in which case it's still a PITA.

If I wanted the flies in the teeth experience, then I'd stick to 2 wheels which gives even greater thrills than 4 wheels ever could. Caterfields give you less thrills than bikes, with all the downsides of cars (roadspace etc), and none of the upsides...

[spanner]

True on the cost. BUT Caterfields/Atoms etc are a PITA for anything other than dry and sunny trackdays within an hour of home. Which pretty much rules out Euro trips. Unless you wanted to trailer... in which case it's still a PITA.

If I wanted the flies in the teeth experience, then I'd stick to 2 wheels which gives even greater thrills than 4 wheels ever could. Caterfields give you less thrills than bikes, with all the downsides of cars (roadspace etc), and none of the upsides...


Agreed to a degree - a bike is more fun on the road but I have completely given up on going quick on the roads, well, properly quick anyway!

I trailered to the ring a few times & yes, it became a complete PITA hence the csl to now do that job.

I completely disagree on the dry & sunny bit though, I used to pray for rain when I was going somewhere in the caterham or elise. I am much more wary of the weather these days running a csl on cups!

The trailering to uk events could be a bit of a faff but again, I tend to take 2 sets of wheels / tyres with the csl too which is at least as much of a pain.

The reality is, a barge can't entertain like a dedicated lightweight toy on track, whatever the weather.

a little caveat to say that I did once not enjoy myself at the ring in really torrential rain in a screenless caterham and I ended up using my tow barge for the rest of the day instead! But I also wouldn't have been out on cups at the time either!

[Ade]

I'm really debating the whole Cups thing on the CSL given the inclement weather we so often get, although this year has proven to be a fine year for Cups!

It was just as much fun (perhaps even more!) on a torrential half day at Snetterton on PZero Neros (I'd normally run PS2s) as I had on Cups when it was dry.

But yes, Caterfields are massive fun. :beer:

[m33ufo]

I'd actually almost completed a deal on a new Lotus 2-11 a few weeks ago and then realised that I wouldn't be able to get it into my garage without grazing the front splitter on entering. They only have 90mm ground clearance and my drive runs slightly downward to my garage - just enough to be a problem! Totally fantastic cars to drive.

[Ade]

I'd actually almost completed a deal on a new Lotus 2-11 a few weeks ago and then realised that I wouldn't be able to get it into my garage without grazing the front splitter on entering. They only have 90mm ground clearance and my drive runs slightly downward to my garage - just enough to be a problem! Totally fantastic cars to drive.

Just beware, IIRC that's the same clearance as my old GT3 had with MMKWs on it. It's not so much the height, it's also the distance from the front to the wheels that creates the max angle of attack!

[spanner]

I'd actually almost completed a deal on a new Lotus 2-11 a few weeks ago and then realised that I wouldn't be able to get it into my garage without grazing the front splitter on entering. They only have 90mm ground clearance and my drive runs slightly downward to my garage - just enough to be a problem! Totally fantastic cars to drive.

oh dear! Surely a couple of bit of wood could solve the problem?

Sounds like you may need to move house:whistle:

[Andyk]

Actually it's the opposite for me, I think the Mk1 front end looks much more dated than the Mk2.

Would have to agree with that as well...mrk1 will always be a classic but it does look a tad dated..

[Jeff]

Would have to agree with that as well...mrk1 will always be a classic but it does look a tad dated..

It's a damn lot newer looking than the old kit though :)

I went with the Mk1 996 GT3 as I just couldn't bare to pay all that money for a car that looked like it was from the 70's. I must admit though I've matured in my taste and would consider one, like a 993 or even 964, but I just don't have the budget required to maintain an air cooled engine.

To comment on some previous posts - the thing that can be forgotten when thinking caterfield is that they are cheaper to run thanks to their lightness, meaning brakes are cheaper, use less petrol, their engine are generally less sophisticated and can be bought for next to nothing etc. Initial outlay can be higher if you build from scratch, but overall it should be a cheap ownership experience (after you invest in good wet weather gear :) )

[shane@mbtech]

Erm....yes, I'm sure that I could have made something up to slide into place if needed. Kind of makes a nonsense of my electric garage doors though, having to open the garage - position the "contraption" - drive out - get out of the car - recover the "contraption" to the garage - get back in car and drive off... :)

I know the CSL doesn't have the same problem so I'll stick with that :thumbs: OR there's the non CS GT3 I now have a test drive in tomorrow which should (probably) be ok. I've got the Cobalt car down to £40K which doesn't sound a bad deal, just still not convinced I won't be happier in a CSL - hopefully after a spin tomorrow I'll be better placed to make a decision.

bet you buy the porsche:whistle:

[m33ufo]

oh dear! Surely a couple of bit of wood could solve the problem?

Sounds like you may need to move house:whistle:

Erm....yes, I'm sure that I could have made something up to slide into place if needed. Kind of makes a nonsense of my electric garage doors though, having to open the garage - position the "contraption" - drive out - get out of the car - recover the "contraption" to the garage - get back in car and drive off... :)

I know the CSL doesn't have the same problem so I'll stick with that :thumbs: OR there's the non CS GT3 I now have a test drive in tomorrow which should (probably) be ok. I've got the Cobalt car down to £40K which doesn't sound a bad deal, just still not convinced I won't be happier in a CSL - hopefully after a spin tomorrow I'll be better placed to make a decision.

[m33ufo]

bet you buy the porsche:whistle:


At the moment my thoughts are that I'll go with the CSL. The Porsche will have to be VERY good to change my mind.

Then again, what about an M6 ;)

[shane@mbtech]

At the moment my thoughts are that I'll go with the CSL. The Porsche will have to be VERY good to change my mind.

Then again, what about an M6 ;)

Ive owned a 996 turbo ( my favourite car as a boy growing up), not same league as a gt3 but it was special just like the csl.
The fact that you are test driving one, says to me you are thinking of buying.

You will have to have great restraint.:thumbs:

M6 is a totally different car, not one bit of rawness, which gt3 and csl have in abundance

[m33ufo]

Ive owned a 996 turbo ( my favourite car as a boy growing up), not same league as a gt3 but it was special just like the csl.
The fact that you are test driving one, says to me you are thinking of buying.

You will have to have great restraint.:thumbs:

M6 is a totally different car, not one bit of rawness, which gt3 and csl have in abundance

Yep, I'd buy it if the price was right and I liked the car. But the only reason I'm even looking is that my CSL deal has been postponed (hopefully for not too long!). I'm rubbish at waiting.

I apprciate that the M6 is aimed at a different audience but it still has appeal and would be terrifying (but fun) on a track day:hahaha:

[Pacman]

Already said you can buy mine...no waiting...
See the pictures posted by Jay in Detailing.....

[m33ufo]

Already said you can buy mine...no waiting...
See the pictures posted by Jay in Detailing.....

I'll just go and take a look :)


Edit....great condition!

[Andyk]

Ive owned a 996 turbo ( my favourite car as a boy growing up), not same league as a gt3 but it was special just like the csl.
The fact that you are test driving one, says to me you are thinking of buying.

You will have to have great restraint.:thumbs:

M6 is a totally different car, not one bit of rawness, which gt3 and csl have in abundance


I agree about the 996 Turbo. I drove one a month or so ago and it was bonkers fast in any gear. Different car to CSL but def a special bit of kit. Depends what you are after in a car I suppose.

M6 is an interesting car at the current prices...low 30's for a car that cost almost 90k 4 years ago. Not driven one but surely it's the same experience as an M5....which cannot be a bad thing.

[m33ufo]

996 GT3, 2004/54, 20K miles, Porsche plus 1 owner, Porsche Warranty, £43K.

Cosmetically it looked pretty good. A couple of very slight dings in the rear ns flank obviously caused by a car door. I'd hope they could be got behind for a paintless repair. Other than that, few stone chips aside, it was excellent. I like the colour although not typical for a GT3.

Bit of a heavy clutch which could be a sign of clutch wear but then again I've not driven a GT3 before so it could be normal? From cold it was a little "graunchy" going into 3rd and 4th but by the end of the test drive it was smooth. Probably just cold and limited use.

Drove nicely, rear end felt quite loose coming out of corners and the traction control came into play a few times. Lots of power and there was a definite extra kick at 6K. Certainly a car that would take some time to get the best from I think.

Decision....he wouldn't go below £40K (advertised at £43K). I'm still thinking on it but I (probably) don't think it's £10K better than a CSL and the CSL is definitely as much fun. Based on a 40 minute test drive of the GT3!

[Pacman]

Good too hear that a CSL is still top of your list..

Was that the Cobalt blue GT3?

[m33ufo]

Good too hear that a CSL is still top of your list..

Was that the Cobalt blue GT3?


Yes, it is a very nice car and a 40 min test drive didn't do it justice but I do have a soft spot for the CSL.

[Ade]

996 GT3, 2004/54, 20K miles, Porsche plus 1 owner, Porsche Warranty, £43K.

Cosmetically it looked pretty good. A couple of very slight dings in the rear ns flank obviously caused by a car door. I'd hope they could be got behind for a paintless repair. Other than that, few stone chips aside, it was excellent. I like the colour although not typical for a GT3.


dings in the NSR quarter is not easy to get out.

Bit of a heavy clutch which could be a sign of clutch wear but then again I've not driven a GT3 before so it could be normal? From cold it was a little "graunchy" going into 3rd and 4th but by the end of the test drive it was smooth. Probably just cold and limited use.


All GT3s have a reasonably heavy clutch compared to normal cars.

2nd/3rd gear box synchros prone to wear. Expensive to fix if they are worn badly. But they sound OK if they warmed up ok. Mileage is a bit low for synchros to be wearing so soon though unless the gearbox was abused early on. Don't forget - the Mk2 has steel synchros on 2/3 and will always feel slightly more notchy.


Drove nicely, rear end felt quite loose coming out of corners and the traction control came into play a few times. Lots of power and there was a definite extra kick at 6K. Certainly a car that would take some time to get the best from I think.


The GT3 does not have traction control.

6k kick is Variocam. The mk2 has stepless Vario... Mk1 Vario is 2 stage which is more noticeable.


Decision....he wouldn't go below £40K (advertised at £43K). I'm still thinking on it but I (probably) don't think it's £10K better than a CSL and the CSL is definitely as much fun. Based on a 40 minute test drive of the GT3!

Drive a few more for comparison. A GT3 with door dings? Such a car for sale is not consistent with a well cared for GT3 imho.

edited to add>> just seen the cobalt car. Unusual to have comfort seats and it makes it undesirable imho, especially with the dings. Speaks of a road driver who probably wasn't as much an enthusiast (ie, may have left some things uncared for). Must have options on the GT3: Aircon and Recaros.

[m33ufo]

The GT3 does not have traction control.



Well that's a surprise, my driving impression was that it seemed to back off out of corners when I pressed the throttle a bit to eary. Must be me!

The dings were very light, a slight crease from a door edge perhaps but not noticable face on - only when looking down the flank.

[Jeff]

I'd prefer to see a door ding or two. There are a number of GT3's that have had so many panels replaced from punting themselves into walls on track days that I would actually be concerned at a mark free car. I think a car park ding or two at least tells you it hasn't had much recent panel work.

I know of one GT3 that was being sold as "straight" that had been in four separate track day incidents but the panel work was perfect. Now while perfect repairs had been performed on the car to exacting standards, it was still, not in the true definition, a straight car as "straight" is used and implied.

To me it sounds like the car you saw was an honest, used car. I doubt driving any more will change your mind about them. You either want one or you don't - it is pretty much that simple. You're right that you can get the same performance from a CSL for 10K less so if owning a Porsche GT3 is not on the wish list then stick with the CSL.

Cheers,
Jeff

[Bealo]

I had a passenger ride in a 996 GT3 RS with Cups on and was really impressed with it, The grip, poise and top end power were all very good.

The only car that would tempt me away from the CSL at the minute would be a 997 GT3 but they only come in manual shift and i have grown to attached to the flappy paddle gearshift to go back to manual, so for now the CSL is Number 1 :thumbs:

[terryb]

I have to give you my input as I owned an immaculate CSL for a year and replaced with a fantastic Mk1 GT3, albeit a well modified one.

The main points to consider are


Front end turn-in. The GT3 is immense - it really makes you feel the difference between a front engined car and rear engined (I know that mid engined cars like Elise's feel the same too).
Steering feel - Again another big plus for the GT3, although it can become too busy and fidgety at lower speeds and sometimes wish it wasn't so communicative - but on the track it's awesome.
Brakes - simply phenomenal - never experienced such good brakes (although mine are uprated, but still much better than in my old Impreza Race car, which weighed less and had full APs with Pagid race pads)
Grip - A well set-up GT3 has immense grip - 295 rear tyres and rear engine, say no more - but remember - slow in, fast out!!!! Although I'm finding fast in fast out... :)
Noise - both cars sound truly awesome - the induction roar of the CSL sounds like angry thunder whereas the screaming flat 6 of the GT3 is like a ailing banshee - both make you want to press the loud pedal more of the time :)
Gearbox - the 6 speed in the GT3 is a very good box, excellent ratios and very positive in action, but the SMGII CSL box os also great and better on the track as you don't need to take your hands off the steering wheel and perfect downshift blips every time - plus the speed of gearchange in S6 is just immense.
At the end of the day, you need to spend more time behind the seat of a GT3 to understand if it is preferable to a CSL and depends how often you plan to use it. It's completely down to individual tastes too.

[m33ufo]

Thanks for the input. It wasn't really a fair comparison - a 40 minute accompanied test drive in a MK2 GT3 compared to having actually owned two previous CSL's - although they were both completely standard examples.

For me, the CSL's box combined with the fantastic induction noise just put it ahead of the GT3. Of course I'm sure the GT3 has many areas that given a little time I'd apprciate.

I'm hopeful that the CSL I'm interested in buying will still actually happen and I'm very looking forward to making a comparison with my previous standard versions and this one with its front/rear AP's and KW suspension.

[Ade]

I have to give you my input as I owned an immaculate CSL for a year and replaced with a fantastic Mk1 GT3, albeit a well modified one.

The main points to consider are


Front end turn-in. The GT3 is immense - it really makes you feel the difference between a front engined car and rear engined (I know that mid engined cars like Elise's feel the same too).
Steering feel - Again another big plus for the GT3, although it can become too busy and fidgety at lower speeds and sometimes wish it wasn't so communicative - but on the track it's awesome.
Brakes - simply phenomenal - never experienced such good brakes (although mine are uprated, but still much better than in my old Impreza Race car, which weighed less and had full APs with Pagid race pads)
Grip - A well set-up GT3 has immense grip - 295 rear tyres and rear engine, say no more - but remember - slow in, fast out!!!! Although I'm finding fast in fast out... :)
Noise - both cars sound truly awesome - the induction roar of the CSL sounds like angry thunder whereas the screaming flat 6 of the GT3 is like a ailing banshee - both make you want to press the loud pedal more of the time :)
Gearbox - the 6 speed in the GT3 is a very good box, excellent ratios and very positive in action, but the SMGII CSL box os also great and better on the track as you don't need to take your hands off the steering wheel and perfect downshift blips every time - plus the speed of gearchange in S6 is just immense.

At the end of the day, you need to spend more time behind the seat of a GT3 to understand if it is preferable to a CSL and depends how often you plan to use it. It's completely down to individual tastes too.

Hey Terry,

Nice to hear you enjoying the GT3 :) A lot of the positives you mention above are because of the extensive mods you have: Alcon brakes + cooling, MMKW suspension and geo, CG wheels, and even small things like the Cup steering wheel and Manthey billet shifter which gives the positive action: the standard gearshift is rubbery in comparison.

If you tried a lesser GT3 in comparison, you'd find it quite blunt and loose in comparison. Enjoy her in good health!
:beer:

[terryb]

LOL - Ade - you are probably very correct in your comments. Whilst the standard CSL is a great car, it is a long way from my/ your old GT3, but then again if you spent similar money on a CSL it would most probably transform that also and be very comparable to my GT3.

One thing is for sure - if I was headed to the Ring, I'd rather drive over in the CSL but drive the track in the GT3, although the CSL was great at the Ring and I'm yet to drive the GT3 there :)

[Ade]

One thing is for sure - if I was headed to the Ring, I'd rather drive over in the CSL but drive the track in the GT3, although the CSL was great at the Ring and I'm yet to drive the GT3 there :)

Why don't you come over at the end July for the long weekend?! :thumbs:

[digi]

Yes, I owned a 996GT3 for over 3 years and 30k+ miles. Modded pretty much everything on it during that time courtesy of Manthey and it was a razor sharp track-focussed scalpel when I sold it earlier this year. Out went the GT3, in came the CSL.

I think it depends on what you want to do with the car. The 6Gt3 is a brilliant tool. But I think it is very hard to fall in love with, in the same way the CSL rewards you instantly. The GT3 is all about precision driving, eeking out the fastest and smoothest lines, perfecting your braking approaching the apex, and modulating the throttle at and through the apex. It rewards you in 0.01s against the clock. The GT3 also gives you the sense of occasion on road trips and bragging rights in the paddock... something you never really get with the CSL. If you are chasing 10/10ths on track, relish the attention on the road and in the paddock, then the GT3 is tops (apart from going the Lambo/Fezza route)

But the CSL is, by far, the most fun car I've ever owned! For one, it's understated. SG/SB is about as exciting the colours get, and for most on the road, it's just another 3-series. Flying undercover, imho, is a good thing - especially in this market. The CSL rewards you instantly on track - you can pitch is sideways, in the dry, in the wet, and get away with it. It is easy to drive at 9/10ths (easier than the GT3), and it is the quicker car A-B in real world road conditions. In short, the CSL is an absolute HOOLIGAN! :)

On track, the GT3 at the limit is tricky - it will teach you how to drive again, steering from the rear, and using the mechanical grip/aero to your advantage. Underestimate it, or overestimate your abilities, and it will bite. Hard and fast.

Depending on how deep your pockets are, you will either find tracking 45k worth of GT3 painless or poor VFM compared to 25-30k of CSL. Especially when the CSL is good enough to give the GT3 a proper dogfight on most circuits (except on power circuits like Spa/Silverstone and if the circuit is clear). At the 'Ring, there is nothing in it except for driver ability. The CSL laps as quickly in pro hands as does the GT3.

On the road, for normal hooning around, the CSL is the better car imho. Add in occasional passengers/urban use etc, and it's a no brainer.

I don't miss the social attention of the GT3... but that's just me. Both cars are equally special - there are touches of the CSL that make it feel very very special. Hold out for the CSL imho

Awesome write up of your experience with both machines. :thumbs:

[m33ufo]

Well...in the end I didn't get either


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u290/m33ufo/DSCF5530-1-1.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u290/m33ufo/DSCF5520-1-1.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u290/m33ufo/DSCF5524-1-1.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u290/m33ufo/DSCF5526-1-1.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u290/m33ufo/DSCF5532-1-1.jpg



http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u290/m33ufo/DSCF5534-1-1.jpg

[Bealo]

Lovely car and one of only a few that i would consider if i was to move away from the CSL.

There fetching not a lot of money these days and you get a hell of a lot of car.

Decent power is fairly cheap to achieve if you so wish, i know i would want more :thumbs:

i haven't seen one on track yet but i guess they go very well.

[SMD]

Whats going on with the low milage CSL that you did not buy in the end?:whistle:

[m33ufo]

It's a 2004/04 TT X50. The performance took me by surprise, easily the most rapid thing I have ever driven. Nothing else has come close....you wouldn't expect it to be a hell of a lot quicker than a 420hp M3 (like i recently sold) but the difference feels dramatic. I have considered some subtle mods - 600bhp is apparently easily achieveable, but at the moment it's under Porsche Warranty which would of course be invalidated by as much as an exhaust change!!!


Re the CSL, the sellers gf was involved in an accident in France and until a couple of weeks ago he was in France with her waiting for her to make a recovery. He refunded my deposit and said he'll contact me when things have settled down. I'll see how I get on with this, who knows I may still get the CSL ;)

[Andyk]

Drove a Turbo at the beginning of the year..bloody bonkers fast, pulled like feck in any gear ....lots of performance for the money. They have gone up in price over the last 6 months...there was few good one around 27k now they are around 33k.

Enjoy :thumbs:

[shane@mbtech]

Drove a Turbo at the beginning of the year..bloody bonkers fast, pulled like feck in any gear ....lots of performance for the money. They have gone up in price over the last 6 months...there was few good one around 27k now they are around 33k.

Enjoy :thumbs:

I sold mine for 30k earlier in year with 35k on clock. Rapid car.

I have a carbon fibre look rear wing, slightly bigger than the standard one,
looks cool imo.

ill post a pic up, if youre interested let me know, if you have the 6pots fitted i have pf discs and pads and i also have a brand new sfs silicone hose kit available.:thumbs:

423

424

425

[m33ufo]

I'm going to keep it looking pretty much standard. The exception could be a second set of wheels which I may finish in a dark grey or black. I like the idea of the hoses but again these would probably invalidate my Porsche warranty.

[Ade]

X50 TT = AWESOME road car! (and no, not much will be quicker in real world driving)

Congrats and enjoy in good health :thumbs:

[shane@mbtech]

I'm going to keep it looking pretty much standard. The exception could be a second set of wheels which I may finish in a dark grey or black. I like the idea of the hoses but again these would probably invalidate my Porsche warranty.

I doubt the hoses will invalidate your warranty, if you change your mind just pm me,

Nice car by the way, very different to the csl.
They are devastatingly fast with a little remap and exhaust;)

[Andyk]

I sold mine for 30k earlier in year with 35k on clock. Rapid car.

I have a carbon fibre look rear wing, slightly bigger than the standard one,
looks cool imo.

ill post a pic up, if youre interested let me know, if you have the 6pots fitted i have pf discs and pads and i also have a brand new sfs silicone hose kit available.:thumbs:

423

424

425

Ah remember seeing that one for sale. Very nice :thumbs:

[m33ufo]

X50 TT = AWESOME road car! (and no, not much will be quicker in real world driving)

Congrats and enjoy in good health :thumbs:
:beer:

Goes like absolute stink! Grip is immense and the 4wd makes it feel very planted - biased 95% to rear until it's required.

[m33ufo]

I doubt the hoses will invalidate your warranty, if you change your mind just pm me,

Nice car by the way, very different to the csl.
They are devastatingly fast with a little remap and exhaust;)

Cheers, I'm going to check with Porsche in the morning. Although nothing would surprise me given that the terms and conditions of the warranty state that even tyres need to be replaced by your friendly neighbourhood OPC!!!!

[glendog74]

i haven't seen one on track yet but i guess they go very well.

Probably coz the only track you visit is that one out in the sticks where few people can be arsed going... :gayfight: :hahaha:

[Bealo]

Probably coz the only track you visit is that one out in the sticks where few people can be arsed going... :gayfight: :hahaha:

i'll have you know Girlie coloured wheel lover, i've done Donington and Rockingham this year.... Some of us have to work for a living instead of playing solders with Mr Clarkson :birdman: :hahaha: :thumbs:

[Nords]

Terry, I think you might have a confession to make?

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1160098.htm

[Andyk]

Terry, I think you might have a confession to make?

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1160098.htm


Thats was a very short ownership Terry..

[Nords]

Must have seemed a bit slow after the CSL?
:thumbs:

[M3_CSL]

Thats was a very short ownership Terry..

Agreed... thought I just saw him posted up some photos of this beast not long ago... and now it is for sale..... so CSL gotta be better, so I better put my poker fantasy to bed then... :hahaha:

cheers,

richie

[Andyk]

Must have seemed a bit slow after the CSL?
:thumbs:


:hahaha:....I will say that the CSL just flatters your driver and gives you loads of confidence on track...Never had a car that has been so easy to drive fast......

[terryb]

LOL - I'm just testing the water.

Last year I had the CSL as a daily driver and the Scooby (620bhp race car) as my toy. I actually competed in the Time Attack for the last 3 years in the car.

I then bought an X6 as the daily driver and did a deal to change the CSL with the GT3 and sold the Scooby so as to not get distracted from work with the commitment required by competition.

However, without that commitment, I feel like the car has lost its purpose - I would feel the same about the Scooby if I had kept it - it's wierd not having been involved this year like I have for the last 3 years. I would love to enter the GT3 into the Time Attack this year as I would walk away with the class of over 3 litre NA, but sadly can't commit to that - although I may well enter the final event at Snetterton in October, just to prove a point :)

It's a strange feeling and one that will probably go away after I drive Snetterton next Tuesday :)

But then I also fancy a bike - which is even wierder.... :)

[Andyk]

I'm terrible with cars....I think about changing every 6 months or so.....so many cars so little time....but then just can not bring myself to get rid. Keep reading that most who have sold regret it. Plus every time I test drive something else it never really blows me away like the CSL.....My mate has a 911 C4S (996) for sale so he let me have a drive..always liked these but oh my God...The dream was shattered..It was very good, fast, comfortable but as soon as it went into a corning it felt so heavy. Suppose we are spoilt with the CSL.

[terryb]

My mate has a 911 C4S (996) for sale so he let me have a drive..always liked these but oh my God...The dream was shattered..It was very good, fast, comfortable but as soon as it went into a corning it felt so heavy. Suppose we are spoilt with the CSL.

It felt heavy...:banghead:

I know my GT3 is set up extremely well and that it is a long way from standard, but it makes a CSL feel heavy and the front end somewhat 'blunt' in comparison. I can't compare it to a standard GT3, as I have never driven one, but it is lightning fast at turning in and the grip is immense.

I took it to work today and when leaving to come home, the car park was empty and it was pouring down with rain, so I tried to lose the back end with a big throttle application in the wet during a sharp left hander. To my amazement it would not let go and I tried a few times. I'm running R888s as well :)

I think if I had pushed it it would have just spun completely :blalalala:

[Ade]

Terry,
Don't sell the GT3! Do the TA and go win it!

But I know what you mean about the StreetFighter though... I rode an S-model the other weekend, and she's a fantastic bit of kit that made me feel like it would take time to get to know her well. Only issue was either her fueling low down, or perhaps it was the traction control that was quite intrusive when switched on. Gorgeous bike though... looks mean in black :smokin:

[XPorker]

It felt heavy...:banghead:

I know my GT3 is set up extremely well and that it is a long way from standard, but it makes a CSL feel heavy and the front end somewhat 'blunt' in comparison. I can't compare it to a standard GT3, as I have never driven one, but it is lightning fast at turning in and the grip is immense.

I took it to work today and when leaving to come home, the car park was empty and it was pouring down with rain, so I tried to lose the back end with a big throttle application in the wet during a sharp left hander. To my amazement it would not let go and I tried a few times. I'm running R888s as well :)

I think if I had pushed it it would have just spun completely :blalalala:

I've just bought my old MK1 GT3 back after three years. In the interim I've had a 996 GT2 and a 997 GT3 (not to mention the CSL, which I still have)

The GT3 now feels very "old", don't get me wrong, it's great fun to drive, it moves around underneath you when you;re pressing on, and requires some thought to pedal quickly.
BUT the CSL would murder it across anything other than billiard table smooth roads.

The CSL is so compliant and it's performance so easily accessible that it makes the GT3 look like hard work most of the time.

From my perspective you'd have to spend a lot of money to get CSL equivalent performance from a GT Porsche (ie £65k for a 997 GT3)

One day the CSL will be appreciated by the motoring press for the value for money performance legend that it is . . . .

[Nords]

I've just bought my old MK1 GT3 back after three years. In the interim I've had a 996 GT2 and a 997 GT3 (not to mention the CSL, which I still have)

The GT3 now feels very "old", don't get me wrong, it's great fun to drive, it moves around underneath you when you;re pressing on, and requires some thought to pedal quickly.
BUT the CSL would murder it across anything other than billiard table smooth roads.

The CSL is so compliant and it's performance so easily accessible that it makes the GT3 look like hard work most of the time.

From my perspective you'd have to spend a lot of money to get CSL equivalent performance from a GT Porsche (ie £65k for a 997 GT3)

One day the CSL will be appreciated by the motoring press for the value for money performance legend that it is . . . .


What we need now is a picture of a CSL about to hoof past a GT3...

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj49/GSXRthou/CSL/CSL_chasing_GT3_noplate.jpg

[terryb]

But that's a lardy mk2... :)

[shimmy]

But that's a lardy mk2... :)

you selling your slimline version terry?

[terryb]

you selling your slimline version terry?

testing the water..