Traction Issues?

[Nords]

Hummmm, could it be because I'm running the Intrax on max softness but since fitting the Goodyear F1 assimetrics, the CSL doesn't grip particularly well. I was hoofing on a bit today on the roads around Chipping Norton and braked for a corner. Yes it was bumpy and I was going some, but the ABS kicked in for a significant length of time and I wouldn't have expected it. Tested the brakes/tyres on a smooth bit 2 minutes later and the tyres gripped much better (they performed as I would have expected), so bumps caused it? The front tyres don't seem to grip around roundabouts, hence allow much understeer than I would have expected.

I also went through a average 50 mph zone on the M40 and was followed by a merc of some description. The end of the zone came up, dropped to 3rd and floored it to leave him. The DSC light flashed frantically and it held the power back for 3-4 seconds before gripping and accelerating. On the way home, I was driving up Birdlip Hill and went around the roundabout in second, following a slow MCS which moved over eventually (I was then in third), floored it and again the DSC light lit up like fireworks night.

Pressures are 34 psi allround (cold), Intrax on max softness (I'm going to try the 35 clicks off max next). No snaking under power (it keeps on a straight line) so not RTAB?

Thoughts?

[Hazy]

It aint the tyres mate, I'm running the same tyres on standard suspension and have no problems at all. I run 32psi FWIW...

[Mark CSL]

34Psi sounds abit hard cold you might be running on the center of the tyre
no grip try 32psi :thumbs:

[Nords]

Dropped to 32 psi rear and 30 psi front. I just having a hard job remembering if Intrax is soft when screwed fully in/out (say clockwise when looking from above)...?

Just off to have a search...

[Hazy]

Dropped to 32 psi rear and 30 psi front. I just having a hard job remembering if Intrax is soft when screwed fully in/out (say clockwise when looking from above)...?

Just off to have a search...

Uh-oh, twiddling with summat you dont understand = the mother of all fq ups :hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:

[Nords]

I know matey, I wouldn't dare touch the GSXR's as it has all sorts of different adjustments. Just let Phil Macallen play with that (I think he opened his new shop in Lisburn this weekend too!)

A quick update, the tyres are 1000 miles old now and temperature cycled numerous times. The geo isn't quite right at the moment, Matt at Fearnsport were going to do it when I had the Goodyears on at Silverstone. Unfortunately the track rod ends on both sides were jammed solid and Matt didn't want to break them hence no adjustment there and then. I asked BM Wellsway to do the track rod ends during the Insp2 but the car is too low for them with the Intrax to KDS it without taking the bumpers off, so they did it 'roughly'. Adrian, the service manager there told me this over the phone and suggested Thorney do a full geo, although I was planning to take it back to Fearnsport as they are close.

All that said, would the geo being slightly out allow the DSC light to flash like a bugger (sic) on warm tyres, in a straight line on the motorway, at 60, when giving it full beans in 3rd? Or understeer at slow speeds around roundabout? It is just that it doesn't seem 'right'...

I have now altered the front suspension and lowered the tyre pressures to 30F and 32R cold...

[Nords]

Whoops, forgot. Someone else suggested PS2s (yes but they were £300 more for a set), the goodyears aren't exactly 'budget'! Another suggested PZero Neros and although I'm told they were designed for the aftermarket alloy market, but people do rate them well. I went for the Goodyears as various tests (EVO) had rated them better than PS2 et al.

They do look quite PS2-ish, don't they?
http://autofiends.com/images/ReviewImages/2310I1Main2Eagle_F1_Asymmetric.jpg

Goodyear...

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Goodyear/Eagle-F1-Asymmetric.htm

PS2...

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Michelin/Pilot-Sport-PS2.htm

Now, I'm the first to admit that tyres are really important (biker influence), however Autocar and I think EVO rated the F1 to be at least as good as the PS2 (okay so within 10% perhaps). They are a new design, big outer shoulder and I would be happy if they performed within 10% of a PS2 on the road. Not interested in track performance from them, just don't want them to wheelspin on a warm dry day in a straight line at 60...

I thought the Contis on my old M3 were okay, especially in the wet (however they did understeer badly at the 'ring). On the Focus (okay fwd), the conti3s I put on it to sell it were as good as the 2 sets of PS2s I ran on it...



FULL UPDATE:
Okay, this is a bit weird...

Went for a hoof late yesterday afternoon after playing around with the front Intrax settings. Tried 30 off max but couldn't get to the rears just yet. Dropped the pressures from 34 rear to 32 and 34 front to 30. Once warm they went up about 3 psi.

I couldn't get the rears to light up the DSC with 'DSC on' or MTrak on' in third in the dry, so tried second. They still wouldn't get the DSC button flashing but the change from second to third took longer than I was expecting (extra second?). The change from third to fourth was as expected (S5 throughout).

Tried again last last night and it had been raining. Tried hoofing it in third and no DSC light flashing either in 'normal' or MTrak on. What's going on, is it a gearbox thing 'learning' me after the Insp2?

I haven't tried to change the rear Intrax settings throughout and are either full soft or full hard (but I think they are full soft, which way is clockwise!!!?). The understeer on slow roundabouts didn't seem too bad in the wet tonight however have dropped 4 psi in the fronts to 30psi cold and gone to 30 off Intrax max...

Hummmmmm....

[Hazy]

personally I think you are on the best all round tyres going, tyres are a very personal thing arent they. As regards to all this strange handling you are experiencing, I would deffo recommend a full set up from someone good, should sort your problems. I tinkered with mine and Radders M3 and introduced understeer that we never had.....gutted!!! Gotta take that to Thorney or Simpson to get it dialled back out now :bigcry::hahaha:

[Nords]

As a fellow bike rider, I totally agree about the tyre thing. I replace my GSXR tyres as a pair because the front won't last 2x a rear (approx 2000-2200 miles). The front isn't worn out but 'stepped' badly by 3K miles.


Played around with the car today, checked back and front suspension by driving up ramps to allow my old (rubbish) trolley jack under the car. I then did a headstand to make sure I was adjusting it 'proper clockwise' on the fronts! I can confirm, both front and back Intrax were on max softness before.

I'm now on the previous owners wet 'ring settings of (from max) 27F and 29R. Tyres are (psi) 30F & 32R cold, after some hooning these are rising by 4 psi in the front and 3 in the rear. I couldn't get the rears to unstick no matter what I did, unless 'getting some air' over the bumpy stuff just next to Cotswold Wildlife Park.

I can only assume it was the road surface (but didn't see anything and funny place, the end of an averaged speed camera-ed 50 zone on the M40) or the SMG getting to know me after being reset.

Very strange...

[bryce]

Sounds like your sorted now then, and your F1s are scrubbed in.

I'll be going F1s next. From what Ive read they're just as good as PS2s.

[Hazy]

As a fellow bike rider, I totally agree about the tyre thing. I replace my GSXR tyres as a pair because the front won't last 2x a rear (approx 2000-2200 miles). The front isn't worn out but 'stepped' badly by 3K miles.


Played around with the car today, checked back and front suspension by driving up ramps to allow my old (rubbish) trolley jack under the car. I then did a headstand to make sure I was adjusting it 'proper clockwise' on the fronts! I can confirm, both front and back Intrax were on max softness before.

I'm now on the previous owners wet 'ring settings of (from max) 27F and 29R. Tyres are (psi) 30F & 32R cold, after some hooning these are rising by 4 psi in the front and 3 in the rear. I couldn't get the rears to unstick no matter what I did, unless 'getting some air' over the bumpy stuff just next to Cotswold Wildlife Park.

I can only assume it was the road surface (but didn't see anything and funny place, the end of an averaged speed camera-ed 50 zone on the M40) or the SMG getting to know me after being reset.

Very strange...

Glad your sorted mate:thumbs:

as an aside, KAIS in Manchester used to set up my racebikes (they used to do Foggys bikes too) and I used to be amazed how I could ring them from a certain track, tell them the bike was hard to get round a certain corner, and they would tell me over the phone what to tweak, and it nearly always worked, good old WP suspension!!!! :thumbs:

[Nords]

Sounds like your sorted now then, and your F1s are scrubbed in.

I'll be going F1s next. From what Ive read they're just as good as PS2s.


I'm being given grief by a mate would used to have a CSL (OE53 XXX anyone?) for not buying PS2s for the road; I have returned the grief by taking the mick about replacing something as good as a CSL with a pikey (massive stickers down the side etc) 996 GT3RS!

I can only assume it was the road surface or the gearbox up to something. The Birdlip Hill one could have been bumps but the end of the 50 zone on the M40 going north is flat as I did it again today in a Civic Type R...?

[_Nathan_]

Glad your sorted mate:thumbs:

as an aside, KAIS in Manchester used to set up my racebikes (they used to do Foggys bikes too) and I used to be amazed how I could ring them from a certain track, tell them the bike was hard to get round a certain corner, and they would tell me over the phone what to tweak, and it nearly always worked, good old WP suspension!!!! :thumbs:

Henk who owns Intrax is ex WP :thumbs:

[kbird]

Nords, the recommended setting for Intrax for road is 10 clicks on, after unwinding anti clockwise until it stops turning. For the track its 30 clicks on

[SpineOnABap]

I'm being given grief by a mate would used to have a CSL (OE53 XXX anyone?) for not buying PS2s for the road

Ahh, the old OGO machine? :thumbs:

[Nords]

Nords, the recommended setting for Intrax for road is 10 clicks on, after unwinding anti clockwise until it stops turning. For the track its 30 clicks on

I have some settings from the first owner (Curly / Dontdobends) for various tracks which seem sensible. I'm going to stick with 'clicking' from max rebound/compression for the reasons mentioned below (my Intrax range is 45 clicks on the front and 55 on the rear) so I'm assuming your 10 road / 30 track is my (road) 35F & 45R and..(track) 15F & 25R. Seems sensible too (ie in the same ballpark with Curly's).

I was recently told this by a friend who has spent a fair bit of time sorting CSLs and so really does know what he is talking about...

I did try a hard front and soft rear but only for 20 miles or so. It felt better on the brakes and seems to stop a fraction quicker on smooth surfaces, possibly less on the bumps. Possibly less tramlining but It seems a bit harsh on the cotswold bumpy roads...

If you run the dampers max softness you are more than likely TOO soft and the damper will be unable to control the spring, which will lead to all sorts of handling issues. Too soft at the front will cause excessive weight transfer too under braking, which could result in problems at the rear, or confusion in the ABS.

I actually spent quite a bit of time with Henk on the settings in Holland, which resulted in a heavily altered front damper with a large bump stop, and a longer travel rear. I don't know how old your shocks are, but a rebuild to the latest spec might be a good idea. Definitely with Henk we worked out that a stiffer front was the way to go with a softer rear, though it does depend on what spring rates you have. I don't think there are two 1k2 kits alike.

Best setup was spring rates of 100 at the front and 50 at the rear for road use. Some kits had 60 at the rear for mostly track use, which is a bit stiff, and others had as little as 80 at the front and even 40 at the rear for more compliance. With that kind of setup you really need a stiffer anti-roll bar like the H&R adjustable ones for track use.

The general rule with the CSL and M3 for that matter is the front dampers should be stiffer than the rear, and the rear springs should be softish for good traction. Tyre pressures too have a significant effect, particularly with Cups on. Generally I ran 32 psi all round hot on the road.

I seem to recall Henk mentioned it is best to set the dampers from fully stiff to where you want, not from fully soft. The clicks are not an exact measure, so you can end up with different damping side-to-side if you are not careful.

You probably should get your setup checked too, as the rake of the car seems to also make quite a difference to how the car behaves in relation to springs etc. Properly corner weighting the car is a good idea, if it has not been done already.

If you have the time, you can go over to Holland and get Henk to set up the car the way you want, which may well mean rebuilding the dampers then and there. Quite fantastic to watch. You might need to allow two days for it though. No idea on costs, but it won't be too bad, and if you time it with a Spa trip, even better as he isn't that far away from the circuit. Henk has a little circuit of all kinds of horrible surfaces he tests the car on, so you can see everything from bumpy dirt, to cobbles, to smooth surfaces. Bit scary when he takes you round them though!



Ahh, the old OGO machine? :thumbs:

I popped over to see him about something else and he would let it drop about 'pikey goodyears'. Amusing Nofolk Broads accent and everything!

[_Nathan_]

Nords, the recommended setting for Intrax for road is 10 clicks on, after unwinding anti clockwise until it stops turning. For the track its 30 clicks on

Recommended by who?

All of this depends on spring rates too, what rates were they running when that was recommended to you?

With 100kg front and 50kg rears I found that a little under half way on each (18 from soft front and 22 from soft rear) was good.

[kbird]

Recommended by who?

All of this depends on spring rates too, what rates were they running when that was recommended to you?

With 100kg front and 50kg rears I found that a little under half way on each (18 from soft front and 22 from soft rear) was good.

Simpson Motorsport gave me the settings when they fitted my Intrax Kit, see below

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii163/9116kb/IntraxFront.jpg

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii163/9116kb/IntraxRear.jpg

[Nords]

Interesting that that claims 40 clicks adjustment back and front when mine do 45 and 55? The last 2-3 are quite 'tight' but the rears have at least 10 more clicks than the front...

PS those are clearly a base point for Intrax, ie 40 clicks, a quarter in for road, a half for sport road and three-quarters for track... I'm sure Henk would agree that is very rough...

[_Nathan_]

they have 40 clicks front and 50 rear. Don't overtighten them

What spring rates were those recommendations for though? They do loads of them and the dampers have enough latitude to cope but it does mean that you need to specify rates when comparing settings.

[Nords]

Is the spring rate written on the springs, Nathan? I'll have to have the wheels off to check...

[_Nathan_]

No idea but I know the range is huge - you can go from as soft as 80/40kg up to around 160/80 (from speaking to Intrax) without a revalve, I've got 130/70 going on I think. I imagine that settings for the 80/40 springs won't be quite so good on the 160/80 springs if you see what I mean so it is an important factor.

[Nords]

Indeed Nathan, totally agree. Tony said the same below...


I have some settings from the first owner (Curly / Dontdobends) for various tracks which seem sensible. I'm going to stick with 'clicking' from max rebound/compression for the reasons mentioned below (my Intrax range is 45 clicks on the front and 55 on the rear) so I'm assuming your 10 road / 30 track is my (road) 35F & 45R and..(track) 15F & 25R. Seems sensible too (ie in the same ballpark with Curly's).

I was recently told this by a friend who has spent a fair bit of time sorting CSLs and so really does know what he is talking about...

If you run the dampers max softness you are more than likely TOO soft and the damper will be unable to control the spring, which will lead to all sorts of handling issues. Too soft at the front will cause excessive weight transfer too under braking, which could result in problems at the rear, or confusion in the ABS.

I actually spent quite a bit of time with Henk on the settings in Holland, which resulted in a heavily altered front damper with a large bump stop, and a longer travel rear. I don't know how old your shocks are, but a rebuild to the latest spec might be a good idea. Definitely with Henk we worked out that a stiffer front was the way to go with a softer rear, though it does depend on what spring rates you have. I don't think there are two 1k2 kits alike.

Best setup was spring rates of 100 at the front and 50 at the rear for road use. Some kits had 60 at the rear for mostly track use, which is a bit stiff, and others had as little as 80 at the front and even 40 at the rear for more compliance. With that kind of setup you really need a stiffer anti-roll bar like the H&R adjustable ones for track use.

The general rule with the CSL and M3 for that matter is the front dampers should be stiffer than the rear, and the rear springs should be softish for good traction. Tyre pressures too have a significant effect, particularly with Cups on. Generally I ran 32 psi all round hot on the road.

I seem to recall Henk mentioned it is best to set the dampers from fully stiff to where you want, not from fully soft. The clicks are not an exact measure, so you can end up with different damping side-to-side if you are not careful.

You probably should get your setup checked too, as the rake of the car seems to also make quite a difference to how the car behaves in relation to springs etc. Properly corner weighting the car is a good idea, if it has not been done already.

If you have the time, you can go over to Holland and get Henk to set up the car the way you want, which may well mean rebuilding the dampers then and there. Quite fantastic to watch. You might need to allow two days for it though. No idea on costs, but it won't be too bad, and if you time it with a Spa trip, even better as he isn't that far away from the circuit. Henk has a little circuit of all kinds of horrible surfaces he tests the car on, so you can see everything from bumpy dirt, to cobbles, to smooth surfaces. Bit scary when he takes you round them though!

[big eyes]

Nords - my 2p's worth - i have completely std suspension set up, but have recently changed from PS2's all round to Goodyears - have noticed that the ride is smoother and that i am having similiar traction issues to you. When giving it the beans the traction control light is flickering, (when it wasn't previously), even on relatively smooth dry roads, with no steering angle on. Odd - i am guessing both the issues above relate to softer sidewalls of the F1's, but not sure. Not really an issue on roads (although irratating) but slightly concerned about what the goodyears are going to be like on track... does any one have any experience??

alex

[Nords]

Interesting Alex, maybe it is the Goodyears then. They won't see the track ever but it was surprising on the road. I have noticed some low speed, front end understeer in the dry with them too...

[shimmy]

i have only had PS2 on road Nords and it is pretty hard in the dry to light them up

offer is still there to try mine as the rims/tyres will just be sitting around all summer in the garage:thumbs:

[Nords]

Cheers matey, when I'm back, I'll come round and do a couple of trackdays on them! :whistle:

Hehehehe... :thumbs:

[XPorker]

I know the lads at Simpsons aren't big fans of the PS2s due to sidewall issues they've had on at least a couple of occasions.

I've used then on Stuttgarts finest and never had ANY complaints. They're not the best at anything, but as a brilliant compromise they're unbeatable IMO.

Are the Goodyears giving you more confidence and allowing you to get on the power earlier Nords ?

After the lads at Simpsons had fitted the rear axle tightening kit I thought something was wrong with my car. The dash lit up whenever I got on the throttle heavily. However when I analyzed what was going on it was all down to me and the fact that I'd got so much more confidence in the rear end grip of the car mid bend that I was getting back on the throttle earlier and more heavily.

I took the car to Chris Franklin for a geo set up after Simpsons had fitted the RATK and AP 4 pots on the rear of the car.

Chris found that a halfway house track/road compromise set up had been put on the car. He reset it up to the standard settings with a very minor tweak (rear toe)

The traction improved dramatically, albeit initially the rear end of the car felt "wayward" under heavy high speed braking.

I found it really disconcerting at first (having got used to the set up the car came on whilst driving the car really hard around France and Italy for just over a week and 3500 miles immediately after I'd bought it)
I think I'd adapted my driving style to the car and it wasn't a set up that suited my driving style really.

Having now done a further 6000 miles I've found the setup Chris put on the car to be spot on.

My experiences with Goodyear F1s are from a long time ago, so they're most likely not relevant, but nontheless I found them to be superb in the wet, but lacking in feedback in the dry, their sidewalls always felt too soft and thus they made the front end of the car feel vague (not quite understeer, but lacking any turn in precision or crispness)
I'd rate them for use in the wet but not much else.

Any tests by the likes of Evo or Autocar tend to be very subjective I always think.
I'm not sure which test is being referred to or more importantly what cars were used ? but chucking a wide cross section of different tyres on a car that may have been designed around a specific brand and type of tyre doesn't strike me as the basis for an accurate test of a tyres abilities ?

[Nords]

You are spot on about the tests XPorker, however I don't have these goodyear F1s which I think you might be thinking about...

http://www.apothema.gr/files/productImages/coveEAGLE%20F1-GSD-3r.jpg

It is these (very PS2 like in tread pattern):

http://www.tiremedia.com/images/tire-big/goodyear-eagle-f1-asymmetric.jpg

The M40 was in a straight line, which was so odd. I think there must have been something on the road, or the SMG 'box was a bit confused. I did drop from 5th to 3rd at 55-60 and floor it...

[SpineOnABap]

If the tyres were recently changed (I may have missed the mention of exactly when they were put on) then the SMG could have been 'confused' if you didn't do the SMG recalibration procedure that you should do when changing tyres (?)
(Handbook - changing tyres section).
Possibly....

[XPorker]

If the tyres were recently changed (I may have missed the mention of exactly when they were put on) then the SMG could have been 'confused' if you didn't do the SMG recalibration procedure that you should do when changing tyres (?)
(Handbook - changing tyres section).
Possibly....

And mentioned in the last couple of pages here : -

http://www.cslregister.com/forum/showthread.php?t=805

[Nords]

Yep the old coast along in neutral at 40-odd and pull both levers in? I did do it when changed the tyres, but Adrian did a partial KDS on the car during Insp2 (by this I mean, the intrax is too low for their kit to work without removing bumpers etc, so they got is very close to std settings after changing both front track rod ends (old ones were locked solid)).

I will get Fearnsport to do a full 3d Geo

[SpineOnABap]

Maybe it was just the road then

As for those track rod ends - I know what you mean about them being locked. Could have done with a blow-torch on them maybe? Depends how committed they are :thumbs: All down to yet another shit design by BMW...

[Nords]

Matt at Fearnsport was going to do the geo after Steve (simplytyres) fitted them there. He didn't have any (more a porsche bunch) and didn't want to take the chance of breaking them off and leaving me screwed on a Sat.

Would they be a warranty thing, I claimed for other things at the time but were charged for those...

[XPorker]

I know andy and Matt at Fearnsport reasonably well and they know their onions (they worked on my 996 GT2)
As I said Chris at Center Gravity set mine up (standard suspension and thus ride height) it really did transform it. I realise it's a trek up to CG, but worth a visit possibly ?

[Nords]

Some Goodyear F1 stuff

A recommended read about the F1s...

http://www.caradvice.com.au/18428/goodyear-eagle-f1-asymmetric-tyre-launch/



Autocar tyre test video...

http://www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallpapers/Videos.aspx?AR=228551&CT=V