OK...I think I'm converted

[Andyk]

I know I'm Mr Standard....but I think I may have been a little hasty.

Went to Llandow yesterday with eric (shake and bake) it peed down all moring...these cars are awesome in the wet. Could not believe the confidence I had in the car and my little ability...............Pics to follow later.

My brakes where OK but they did take a battering along with tyres as Llandow is a small circuit....but I could not believe the difference in braking distances between my standard brakes (well EBC and braided hoses) and Erics AP's. FECKING AWESOME I GOT TO HAVE SOME OF THOSE:drool:. I am big enough to admit I was wrong - they where stunning....

Hold on I haven't finished yet...Erics car had spacers on which made the car look very mean next to mine.....I'VE GOT TO GET ME SOME OF THOSE:drool:.

There I've said it and come to the dark side...I do feel better now.

Out of interest what effect will spcers have to the handling...anything at all or is it just for looks....Also is it an expensive mod.

[SpineOnABap]

Just put some Cups on (presume he was on them and you weren't?) and some decent brake pads (eg Pagid RS14) that can take the sustained 'abuse', because the AP kit alone wouldn't make that much difference to braking distances like you say you saw.

[DazBlackCSL]

I know I'm Mr Standard....but I think I may have been a little hasty.

Went to Llandow yesterday with eric (shake and bake) it peed down all moring...these cars are awesome in the wet. Could not believe the confidence I had in the car and my little ability...............Pics to follow later.

My brakes where OK but they did take a battering along with tyres as Llandow is a small circuit....but I could not believe the difference in braking distances between my standard brakes (well EBC and braided hoses) and Erics AP's. FECKING AWESOME I GOT TO HAVE SOME OF THOSE:drool:. I am big enough to admit I was wrong - they where stunning....

Hold on I haven't finished yet...Erics car had spacers on which made the car look very mean next to mine.....I'VE GOT TO GET ME SOME OF THOSE:drool:.

There I've said it and come to the dark side...I do feel better now.

Out of interest what effect will spcers have to the handling...anything at all or is it just for looks....Also is it an expensive mod.

:hahaha::supz:

Welcome to the dark side !! Spacers £50 ish and give it a slightly wider track so a little better handling, and in my experience the AP's do make a difference both when I did not have them and then when I did.
Me and a mate with CSL (without AP) were at the ring in sept , he said if he had braked when I did he would of been in the armco :hahaha:

[Andyk]

Just put some Cups on (presume he was on them and you weren't?) and some decent brake pads (eg Pagid RS14) that can take the sustained 'abuse', because the AP kit alone wouldn't make that much difference to braking distances like you say you saw.


No he was on Conti's the same as me.....The AP's def made a huge difference.

[SpineOnABap]

No he was on Conti's the same as me.....The AP's def made a huge difference.


If you pump over £2k of your hard-earned into an AP upgrade, expecting to see reduced braking distances, then you're going to be seriously disappointed.

If you just want to see a reduction in stopping distances like you say you saw, then put some Cups on.

[Bealo]

If you pump over £2k of your hard-earned into an AP upgrade, expecting to see reduced braking distances, then you're going to be seriously disappointed.

If you just want to see a reduction in stopping distances like you say you saw, then put some Cups on.


I totally disagree, i would say without a shadow of doubt that the AP's are by far the best mod you can do to a CSL.

The difference in braking distance and confidence they gave me was incredible compared to the standard set up.

If the Cups come anywhere near to being an improvement then i'm in for a treat when i get mine on when i get home.

[shimmy]

You font really get reduced stopping distances with AP and good pads but what you to get is consistently good stopping distances without heat fade making you feel like your stopping shorter but in reality you are just maintaining good braking and others are getting worse

Better Tyres like cups actually improve grip and stop you shorter.

[SpineOnABap]

You font really get reduced stopping distances with AP and good pads but what you to get is consistently good stopping distances without heat fade making you feel like your stopping shorter but in reality you are just maintaining good braking and others are getting worse

Better Tyres like cups actually improve grip and stop you shorter.

Absolutely.

"If the Cups come anywhere near to being an improvement"

You'll see dramatically reduced braking distances, I'd say about 8m from 70mph-0mph.

[Bealo]

Absolutely.

"If the Cups come anywhere near to being an improvement"

You'll see dramatically reduced braking distances, I'd say about 8m from 70mph-0mph.


Cool, in that case i really can't wait to try the Cups out.....

[SpineOnABap]

Cool, in that case i really can't wait to try the Cups out.....

You'll struggle to get them upto full temp on the road, but even at the levels you can achieve they are simply leagues ahead of PS2/Conti/etc. On track, where you can achieve the ideal temps, the game is raised to another level again.

[Bealo]

You'll struggle to get them upto full temp on the road, but even at the levels you can achieve they are simply leagues ahead of PS2/Conti/etc. On track, where you can achieve the ideal temps, the game is raised to another level again.


I have read on here that everyone says use 32psi hot on track for the cups but do you know what is the optimum operating temp for them? ( i have just bought a set of those tyresure gauges for the wheels.


Sorry for the thread hijack Andy :whistle:

[SpineOnABap]

That's right yeah. On the road I'd probably run about that COLD.

[SpineOnABap]

SAW 6

Three CSL are travelling side by side along the M6 at 70mph. It's a beautiful sunny day and everythings lovely. BUT OH NO, suddenly a huge hole appears 40meters up the road, and there's a horrible pit of fire below.
The brakes are instantly stamped on - but two of them are going to get a severe tanning session :hahaha:

Which one do you choose? Live or die the choice is yours

CSL#1 - Bog standard factory CSL with PS2 tyres
CSL#2 - Bog standard factory CSL except AP 365mm/6pot RS29 brakes with PS2 tyres
CSL#3 - Bog standard factory CSL with Cup tyres

[Bealo]

SAW 6

Three CSL are travelling side by side along the M6 at 70mph. It's a beautiful sunny day and everythings lovely. BUT OH NO, suddenly a huge hole appears 40meters up the road, and there's a horrible pit of fire below.
The brakes are instantly stamped on - but two of them are going to get a severe tanning session :hahaha:

Which one do you choose? Live or die the choice is yours

CSL#1 - Bog standard factory CSL with PS2 tyres
CSL#2 - Bog standard factory CSL except AP 365mm/6pot RS29 brakes with PS2 tyres
CSL#3 - Bog standard factory CSL with Cup tyres


LOL

CSL 3 :thumbs: :thumbs:

[bryce]

haha SpineOAB :hahaha:

Andy, wtf? :hahaha:

As many have said, braking distances wont improve - they'll just stay consistantly good due to less fade. I fancy a BBK but still cant justify the cost involved, so I think I'll just do fluid, hoses and pads in the time being.

Spacers do look good, Mark and Gaz are running them and they look awesome. Make sure you get hubcentric ones - they have an extra lip for your wheel to sit on - and you'll need extended bolts.

Daz is sending me an old set of his, when he plucks up the courage to go round the ex's :hahaha:

[Mark CSL]

CSL#4 cups and a big brake kit have a kfc then brake for the hole
i dont tan well :hahaha:

[glendog74]

Well, I'm SHOCKED! Andyk - the last bastion - of unmodified CSLs has finally succumbed to the Dark Side... :hahaha:

I agree with Shimmy/SOAB - it is rather subjective but i can't categorically state that my APs have enabled any reduction in braking distance with standard road tyres (PS2) on track. What the APs do very well over OEM is remain judder free and resist fade, in-turn promoting huge confidence in them, making you think less about cooking brakes and more about driving smoother/faster... ;)

Can't wait to try my Cup Tyres on track now and feel the full force of grip, cornering and effective braking! :smt023

[SMD]

About time Andy!:thumbs:

The brakes should have been done by the factory when making the car!:whistle:

[jibm]

SAW 6

Three CSL are travelling side by side along the M6 at 70mph. It's a beautiful sunny day and everythings lovely. BUT OH NO, suddenly a huge hole appears 40meters up the road, and there's a horrible pit of fire below.
The brakes are instantly stamped on - but two of them are going to get a severe tanning session :hahaha:

Which one do you choose? Live or die the choice is yours

CSL#1 - Bog standard factory CSL with PS2 tyres
CSL#2 - Bog standard factory CSL except AP 365mm/6pot RS29 brakes with PS2 tyres
CSL#3 - Bog standard factory CSL with Cup tyres
:hahaha:

[Andyk]

Well that has suprised me to be honest...my standard brakes with upgraded pads and braided hoses was OK and really only started to go off towards end of day...if you say that AP's don't allow you to break later then to be honest 2k plus for the kit seems like a bit much just to stop fade.....But i will say again Eric had the same tyres as me and he was def breaking later than...this was his first track day as well.

My mate who does a bit of Rally Driving and also has a CSL on standard breaks went out with him on his first run to give him some tips and he came back and said the AP's were awesome and you couls def break a lot later....

I am confused now....

[Hazy]

tomorrow at Anglesey should be interesting comparison....

I have gone from a bog standard CSL, I have had the geo altered to run 2 deg of negative camber front and rear ( its a pig in a straight line over 120mph now:bigcry:), fitted Ferodo DS3000 full race pads (they fq your discs and black the wheels instanly, but boy do they stop), DOT 5 point summat race fluid and a fresh set of cups instead of Goodyear F1's. Looking forward to the transformation.

Me and Radders always run at a similar pace, so we can evaluate his AP's against my standard brakes too.....report and pics to follow Saturday night:thumbs:

Have I gone the right route with the geo???

[bryce]

Andy, the brakes (OEM / AP's / Alcons) will only ever stop you as quick as the car can keep on gripping the road. Theoretically you should be able to lock up OEM brakes, so APs/ Alcons cant stop you any quicker than that. Ya follow? BBK's are designed to resist fade for longer, so you can keep hammering and they stay nice and sharp.

As SOAB covered, side by side OEM vs APs - assuming all else is same ie tyres / weight / conditions - braking from say 100mph as hard as you can - once, should stop in the same time / distance. Do this 20 times in a row, and the AP's will be stopping quicker.

Have I gone the right route with the geo???

What did you do about toe? Im toe'd in rear, toe'd out front. It sucks on the road though. :banghead:

[Hazy]

Andy, the brakes (OEM / AP's / Alcons) will only ever stop you as quick as the car can keep on gripping the road. Theoretically you should be able to lock up OEM brakes, so APs/ Alcons cant stop you any quicker than that. Ya follow? BBK's are designed to resist fade for longer, so you can keep hammering and they stay nice and sharp.

As SOAB covered, side by side OEM vs APs - assuming all else is same ie tyres / weight / conditions - braking from say 100mph as hard as you can - once, should stop in the same time / distance. Do this 20 times in a row, and the AP's will be stopping quicker.



What did you do about toe? Im toe'd in rear, toe'd out front. It sucks on the road though. :banghead:

Not sure mate, will scan the set up details sheet later, have a lok and tell me what you think. BTW, what pressures for the track cold/hot for Cups??

[bryce]

Not sure mate, will scan the set up details sheet later, have a lok and tell me what you think. BTW, what pressures for the track cold/hot for Cups??

Im no expert, but mine is a fast road geometry setup from Thorney.

Most run 32pun Hot. Which is about 26 cold.

[_Nathan_]

32 hot so about 24-26 cold IME.

[_Nathan_]

Bryce beat me to it :)

[Hazy]

Im no expert, but mine is a fast road geometry setup from Thorney.

Most run 32pun Hot. Which is about 26 cold.

Hmm....thats quite low innit????

[bryce]

They get very hot though! Just run them to track at 32 cold, then let them down when ya get there.

[Mark CSL]

Yip i run cups at knockhill 32psi cold to drive there and down to 27psi before the first session then check them after some hot laps and 32psi hot is just right:thumbs:

[Shake&Bake]

Hi all, just back from work so have only seen thread now. As Andy said I did seem to be able to brake much later than a lot of people yesterday (including that lovely blue Exige). They do fill you with confidence and and you are much more likely to brake later and later. Admittedly I am very hard on brakes. The tyres I had on were the conti's, I never hear anyone talking about them on forums but I think they were fantastic. If what ye are saying is correct about the addition of the cups then I REALLY can't wait for CC.

To be fair Andy wasn't the only one that was suprised at how late you could brake with the AP's.

AP's do fade as well btw as I found out.

Anyone know of any nice 5 bed close to Llandow for sale :hahaha:

S&B

[glendog74]

Andyk - ultimately, you have to weigh up just how many track days you plan on doing per year to justify the expense.

I went the BBK route as i plan 3-4 Ring trips as well as a handful of UK TDs each year. That's why i also now have track wheels/Cup tyres. :smokin:

If you only do 1 or 2 TDs per year, i would stick to OEM, braided lines, uprated pads and just accept the fade/grumble issues! :whistle:

[shimmy]

Glad you enjoyed it but stay real!!

Llandow is a Go Kart track and it is also in Wales. Worth a visit but you wouldn't want to live there!!!

[glendog74]

The tyres I had on were the conti's, I never hear anyone talking about them on forums but I think they were fantastic.

Anyone know of any nice 5 bed close to Llandow for sale :hahaha:



1. Wait until you try Michelin/Goodyear :whistle:
2. Wait until you go to the Ring - you'll want to live in Germany then! :hahaha:

[SpineOnABap]

AP's do fade as well btw as I found out.



I think it's important to state that it's more likely down to something other than the AP's (the AP bits are the caliper and the disc possibly?)
More likely wanky overrated pads like Pagid RS29, or fluid, or driver dare I say it!

I can tell you I used to do nealy 100 laps of Oulton a day, in the summer, on AP calipers/discs and Pagid RS19 pads, and not any hint of a problem. I was out all day and hardly ever took a break.

[glendog74]

Llandow is a Go Kart track and it is also in Wales. Worth a visit but you wouldn't want to live there!!!

:hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha:

[Shake&Bake]

:hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha:

Ha ha point taken. Just really enjoyed my 1st time out in a few years so you'll have to forgive me.

SOAB - To be honest Im not sure what pads I have I don't get too technical I just enjoy driving it (no disrespect intended) Anthony at Simponsmotorsport reckoned it was the best set up for track use if that makes any difference. There seemed to be some lovely shiney hoses and some nice new brake fluid fitted as well.

Anyway it's ultimatly down to what Glendog said. Weighing up what use your going to get pound for pound.

Glendog - Cups in the garage with my new wheels ready for next Friday.

P.S Can't wait to go for a spin with some of the more experienced drivers here. I could do with a few tips on ultimate set up. :thumbs:

S&B

[Curly]

I think it's important to state that it's more likely down to something other than the AP's (the AP bits are the caliper and the disc possibly?)
More likely wanky overrated pads like Pagid RS29, or fluid, or driver dare I say it!

I can tell you I used to do nealy 100 laps of Oulton a day, in the summer, on AP calipers/discs and Pagid RS19 pads, and not any hint of a problem. I was out all day and hardly ever took a break.
you hit the nail on the head elliot there is no way you could have done 100 laps at the pace you was running with standard,the thing is just buy the ap fronts its easy to change the pads plus you get good money for them when you want to get rid

[glendog74]

Glendog - Cups in the garage with my new wheels ready for next Friday.

Cool -look forward to meeting you at CC! I'll have knackered old Pilot Sports on... :banghead: Trying to rape them over before fitting my Cups in time for the MLR Ring trip in May :thumbs:

[Andyk]

Andyk - ultimately, you have to weigh up just how many track days you plan on doing per year to justify the expense.



Think you hit the nail on the head there Glendog......for me it's just not worth it. I could be tempted with that http://shop.speedreligion.net/bmw-performance---6-pot-brembo-brake-kit---m3-csl-1640-p.asp as half the price but would need a few reviews first.

So in the cold light of day doesn't look like I am fully converted yet.