Help brake judder

[Brendanmck]

Advice needed. Can't seem to get rid of my cars brake judder I've tried everything at this stage. Just had discs skimmed and new pads fitted but I've got the same judder leading me to believe it's something other than the brakes any ideas much appreciated .

[adem.csl]

Advice needed. Can't seem to get rid of my cars brake judder I've tried everything at this stage. Just had discs skimmed and new pads fitted but I've got the same judder leading me to believe it's something other than the brakes any ideas much appreciated .

Where do you get the judder from?does the steering shake as you brake at speeds?do you have bbk or standard discs?standard pipes or braided?
You may need to check your front calipers.check the rubber bellows that cover the Pistons if one even has a slight tear in it it will ingress water that will erode the piston.what might be happening is the piston is seizing and not retracting causing disc to over heat and distort.another thing could be a collapsed brake pipe.best way to check all or any off those is get the brakes hot hot and when you come to lights you need to see if the car will free roll.as in slow down to a crawl and see if it stops abruptly or slows without any help.also even if you've had the discs skimmed and there is debris between the disc and hub you will create the same problem
Ideally you need to do a run out test on the discs and the hubs.
I had an e90 on Friday with a bent hub causing it to push the caliper out.cant explain how it did bend but I could physically see it wobble.

[adem.csl]

Another idea.do you feel the rear of the car judder when you hit the brakes
Silly question have you checked for a bulge in your tyre or an egg shaped tyre these also are factors

[Brendanmck]

I have Ap bbk fitted front and rear. The shudder is from the front and shakes the steering it's not as bad when I brake lightly but is really bad when I brake harder basically it's taking the enjoyment out of driving the car. I had the calipers off the car and checked them over . All the pistons seem to be moving freely. The wheels where all refurbished recently so I can rule out any buckles in the wheels. The last pads I had fitted Aps own were so dusty the inside pads actually we're jamming in the calipers I thought that might be the cause so binned those pads and fitted new ones skimmed the discs but to no avail I've still got the same problem.

[adem.csl]

I have Ap bbk fitted front and rear. The shudder is from the front and shakes the steering it's not as bad when I brake lightly but is really bad when I brake harder basically it's taking the enjoyment out of driving the car. I had the calipers off the car and checked them over . All the pistons seem to be moving freely. The wheels where all refurbished recently so I can rule out any buckles in the wheels. The last pads I had fitted Aps own were so dusty the inside pads actually we're jamming in the calipers I thought that might be the cause so binned those pads and fitted new ones skimmed the discs but to no avail I've still got the same problem.

If I'm not wrong those calipers are held by standard bolts but they have washers between the caliper and hub.have you dropped a washer?question2 is is is shit I've lost myself
Oh yeah have you got floating discs or solid?the best way today diagnose this issue is by using a run out gauge question 3 does it vibrate from cold to hot or from hot only? .unless you have a set of discs sitting spare?this all has a bearing on what may be the cause of your issue
You say the piston seem to move freely you need to extend all 6 pistons and check for ANY kind of wear or water damage anything that will cause them not to return.theres lots to it to be honest not easy to diag on the forum.im just trying to guide you through tell tail signs.you need to know if your getting binding from the calipers when hot.where the discs the same immediately after having them skimmed or did it develop again after?when they were skimmed where they done on the car or on a lathe in a workshop?that also has an impact.do I have a spare set of discs you can try?ill have a look.im scared to say it but skimmed discs may not be the cure of your problem.reason being if you took them off got them lathed at a machine shop they may not be 100% and they may not be 100% clean on the mating face of the disc and hub.

[adem.csl]

13135

This how they should be skimmed for 100% alignment to your hub
My own car brand new discs the day after fitting cheap crap spacers

[Brendanmck]

That's the method I used The first time I had them done (pro cut)it didn't cure it completely and it gradually got just as bad again. I've got floating discs fitted. I must check the bolts and washers. Are these the bolts that fit the caliper bracket to the hub?. I only skimmed the discs the second time as I was fitting new pads and with the old pads sticking on the inside it left the discs scored and rusty on the inside.

[Brendanmck]

I've spacers fitted on the front also? Could this be an issue?

[adem.csl]

That's the method I used The first time I had them done (pro cut)it didn't cure it completely and it gradually got just as bad again. I've got floating discs fitted. I must check the bolts and washers. Are these the bolts that fit the caliper bracket to the hub?. I only skimmed the discs the second time as I was fitting new pads and with the old pads sticking on the inside it left the discs scored and rusty on the inside.

Okay make my diag harder for me.
Yes on some ap sets I've seen washers between the caliper bracket and hub mating face.if you don't have washers then you couldn't have dropped one.
Ok so if you skimmed the discs to match the hub it cooouuuuullllldddddd be spacer related.youd need a micrometer to measure all the way round the spacer.
Reason being if one side is 5mm and the other side is 4.8mm when you bolt the wheel down there will be .2mm space between disc and spacer causing it to move which allows it to warp.
Only other thing is to place a run out gauge on your hubs and check run out tolerances.
Are all your wishbone bushes,ball joints rear brake force bushes in good condition?
Only 2 components in my mind can be at fault.1:brake disc bells 2:hubs

[adem.csl]

I've spacers fitted on the front also? Could this be an issue?

What spacers have you got?
Bought my brakes brand new,fitted them run them in.day later I got vibration.spoke to the Americans who insisted I post the discs back to them.it was cheaper to sim them.while I got them skimmed I asked the tech to figure out how they got destroyed.he checked my hub run out,fine.
Checked inside my rims,fine.
Checked my 5mm spacers and found one side was actually 4.8mm cold pressed spacers were my culprit.i waited and bought lazer machines spacers.fitted them and I've had no problems in over 7 years and I e done 10 trackdays.
So I wouldn't rule out a tolerance issue either between hub n bell or bell and rim.

[Brendanmck]

What spacers have you got?
Bought my brakes brand new,fitted them run them in.day later I got vibration.spoke to the Americans who insisted I post the discs back to them.it was cheaper to sim them.while I got them skimmed I asked the tech to figure out how they got destroyed.he checked my hub run out,fine.
Checked inside my rims,fine.
Checked my 5mm spacers and found one side was actually 4.8mm cold pressed spacers were my culprit.i waited and bought lazer machines spacers.fitted them and I've had no problems in over 7 years and I e done 10 trackdays.
So I wouldn't rule out a tolerance issue either between hub n bell or bell and rim.

Thanks for all the advice il get stuck back into the issue and with a bit of luck get to the bottom of it il update you on my progress and thanks again.

[NZ_M3]

Brake judder is almost always caused by incorrect bedding in, so you have an uneven pad to disc transferance which you can't physically see but feel through steering feedback in juddering.

Of course assuming the kit was fitted correctly and measured.

You also can't bed in racing compound on the road ... anyone that claims to be able to do so doesn't know what bedding in is.

Having a bad front wheel spacer can also cause that. If enough clearance take them off and test.

[select]

Yes especially at this stage i would remove the spacers and see if the problem persists.
Also check if your wheel bearings are shot while at it.
My take is that either thing is the problem.. braking loads more force on the spacers and bearings.

[adem.csl]

[QUOTE=NZ_M3;201028]Brake judder is almost always caused by incorrect bedding in, so you have an uneven pad to disc transferance which you can't physically see but feel through steering feedback in juddering.

Of course assuming the kit was fitted correctly and measured.

You also can't bed in racing compound on the road ... anyone that claims to be able to do so doesn't know what bedding in is.

Having a bad front wheel spacer can also cause that. If enough clearance take them off and test.[/QUOTE


He says he skimmed the discs and fitted new pads.im assuming he has a road compound pad and not an rs29 type pad
Brake judder can be caused by couple other factors. over heated discs or seized calipers.if you over heat the discs and don't let them cool e.g you hammer your brakes then stop at the light with your foot on the pedal you cause a heat spot around the pad which causes that part of the dos to soften and warp.another attribute is slamming on the brake so hard you leave the pad on the surface of the disc.ive seen this too.boiling hot discs through a cold puddle.puddle big enough to touch the discs that is.or build up of rust between hub and disc.
There is a point made here!if you have debris from the brake pad left on the disc say for example you sat with your foot on the brake whilst boiling hot,you may have left a layer from the pad on the disc.you may and I say MAY be able the make out the outline of the pad shape on the disc.if soo it's been possible to sand off the debris left by the pad on the disc.although in my opinion not highly likely.

Removing the spacers and trying it like that won't cure the issue.once the discs are warped they are warped.sorry.response to selects post.

[adem.csl]

These are only what I've taken from my experience being a mechanic for 25 years
They are my opinions and not facts.im only offering diagnostic advice
I hope you get it sorted and the help from techs on this forum serve as valuable info
Good luck dude.

P.s found this light bit of reading.i meantioned everything I this link before I reading it.
https://mycarneedsa.com/blog/causes-of-brake-judder-and-how-to-fix-it

[adem.csl]

13136

This is one of my customers cars from a couple weeks back
He took it to a tyre and brake shop on the high street.they fitted him cheap pads and discs
He wanted to save a bit of dough
They didn't clean the hubs of rust and debris.it warped in 8 weeks.i had to clean this all down properly and remove all the high points.fitted new pads and discs problem solved

[adem.csl]

13137
This is a rusty high spot where water has gone through a hole and settled behind the disc.not cleaning this off PROPERLY will cause intolerance in the disc.not long after you get vibration cos it won't run true

Hope that helps in some form
I know a Mercedes hub is not the same as a Bmw hub but you get the idea

[select]

Adem, no problem im not a car mechanic and i certainly dont have 25 years of experience. Im just another csl drug addict. ;)

But.. considering he has changed pads and had his rotors skimmed that certainly leaves me to think the problem is probably elsewhere. And when i read that he has spacers installed it is a good idea to remove them just to see if they were the issue. If they are cheap versions or not of hub-centric type they certainly can cause steering wheel wobbling. I dont know if wheel bearings can cause it too but i think if they are shot enough they can?

[adem.csl]

Adem, no problem im not a car mechanic and i certainly dont have 25 years of experience. Im just another csl drug addict. ;)

But.. considering he has changed pads and had his rotors skimmed that certainly leaves me to think the problem is probably elsewhere. And when i read that he has spacers installed it is a good idea to remove them just to see if they were the issue. If they are cheap versions or not of hub-centric type they certainly can cause steering wheel wobbling. I dont know if wheel bearings can cause it too but i think if they are shot enough they can?

You are right about the spacers cos as not my early post I said of the problems I had with cheap cold pressed spacers.now although they were temporary to get me home for weekend they caused a lot of damage to my new brakes.
Stoptech only do bbk 380mm kit for e46 m3 and not Csl so my problem was the et setting of the rims as Csl is 3mm shy of the m3 et setting ,my wheels touched the calipers and caused damage to my rims and brand new calipers.so I had to go halfords to get cheap 5mm spacers to make up clearance so I could get the car home.
I'm not saying anyone's opinion is wrong I'm only saying my advice is an aid to diagnosis and in a sense is not fact based because I'm a practical mechanic not a technical mechanic.in the sense I know what's wrong and what I'm doing but I'm not technical all numbers n figures about it.

I don't seek to argue with anyone so I just choose to add my opinion and hope it helps guys out.

[select]

That sucks to hear about your wheels and brakes.. what a pain in the :moan:


I don't seek to argue with anyone so I just choose to add my opinion and hope it helps guys out.

Its all in good spirit, i didnt mean to start bickering with you. You certainly know your stuff, so i am glad you are sharing your knowledge. :beer:

[adem.csl]

That sucks to hear about your wheels and brakes.. what a pain in the :moan:



Its all in good spirit, i didnt mean to start bickering with you. You certainly know your stuff, so i am glad you are sharing your knowledge. :beer:

All good mate.
Yeah with the brakes the vendor didn't say or didn't know that this kit was m3 only. and in honesty why would stoptech make a kit for a Csl when they don't have Csl in America.but they should have added n their info that this kit won't fit Csl due to rim et offset differences or indeed added a set of spacers to take up the tolerance differences.so not only did I damage the spokes on my rims I damaged the brand new calipers is waited and special ordered in grey. I also had to buy 2 sets of spacers and pay a man to skim brand new discs so a hard lesson for me.

[knoxville]

Bearings must be good. Hubs must be super clean. Fit discs, check runout in all positions and install at best position. Bed in DECENT pads correctly and you'll get no issues.

If you still get steering wheel wobble, it'll be from elsewhere.

[adem.csl]

Any luck sorting your brake judder mate?