cups

[khooni]

is tyre leader still the place for cups?

or cup 2s. I am running low on tyre life but since the days of cheap cups seem to be over, I'm also looking at cup 2s.

seems like blackcircles is pretty good for a fully fitted deal. ANy other suggestions? tks

[CSLScot]

Blackcircles should be best - they're now owned by Michelin.

[billyboysm3]

is tyre leader still the place for cups?

or cup 2s. I am running low on tyre life but since the days of cheap cups seem to be over, I'm also looking at cup 2s.

seems like blackcircles is pretty good for a fully fitted deal. ANy other suggestions? tks

Or try the Dunlop 03G, very good grippy tyres, will keep someone honest on slicks. I found pretty decent on damp track and on wet/damp road on route to track.

Catch up at Silverstone soon.

[Mike R]

Or try the Dunlop 03G, very good grippy tyres, will keep someone honest on slicks. I found pretty decent on damp track and on wet/damp road on route to track.

Catch up at Silverstone soon.

Are they available in 19s :whistle: ?

[derek]

Got used pair of rears going cheap in for sale section plenty live in them

[khooni]

tks.

I need the fronts as well.

might be time to try cup2s on the csl anyway.

Tomorrows Silverstone GP is going to be rainy......

[Mike R]

I'd go Trofeo Rs over Cup 2s.....

[CraigMillwardCroft]

Mine is going to be on cup 2's soon, trying to find the best price still.

[shimmy]

I'd go Trofeo Rs over Cup 2s.....

Why?

[Mike R]

Because the Cup 2s are good up to a point - they are the same as R888s where they seem to have a narrow lap window of operating before they get too hot and go off very quickly. This makes them okay on the road, but a let-down on track, where you can only get 2-3 fast laps at a time.

The Trofeo Rs are more like the Cup 1s in grip and operating window. They actually do the correct CSL sizes (front and rear) as well....

[Chappers]

What pressures are you running in Cup 2s? A mate with them on his Cayman GT4 has them at 1.9bar cold and has been recommended to run them around 2.4-2.5bar hot...

When my supersports finally run out (now at 17,000 miles including a trackday :hahaha:) I'm going to get some in the specs I've been recommended and do some trials with them.

[Mike R]

Tried all different pressures, but they still perform like the R888s in that the operating window is vastly reduced compared to the original Cups.

[Chappers]

which tyres were overheating? Fronts, rears or both?

[Mike R]

Both - the whole car just starts to move around when they get hot. They work fine and then just start fall off a cliff. You then have to come in and let them cool, where they then recover.

It's just a pain in the arse on a track day, as it spoils the momentum. Just when you start to get into a groove, the car starts to slide and loose grip everywhere (in the same way as a normal road tyre does after a few hot laps) and you have to come in.

I think we were just spoiled with the Cups, as they were amazing. However, the Trofeo Rs perform in a similar way (but cost as much as Cup 1s did when they were expensive).

[shimmy]

Both - the whole car just starts to move around when they get hot. They work fine and then just start fall off a cliff. You then have to come in and let them cool, where they then recover.

It's just a pain in the arse on a track day, as it spoils the momentum. Just when you start to get into a groove, the car starts to slide and loose grip everywhere (in the same way as a normal road tyre does after a few hot laps) and you have to come in.

I think we were just spoiled with the Cups, as they were amazing. However, the Trofeo Rs perform in a similar way (but cost as much as Cup 1s did when they were expensive).

Ta

How much did you pay for the Trofeo R?

[Pooky]

Both - the whole car just starts to move around when they get hot. They work fine and then just start fall off a cliff. You then have to come in and let them cool, where they then recover.

It's just a pain in the arse on a track day, as it spoils the momentum. Just when you start to get into a groove, the car starts to slide and loose grip everywhere (in the same way as a normal road tyre does after a few hot laps) and you have to come in.

I think we were just spoiled with the Cups, as they were amazing. However, the Trofeo Rs perform in a similar way (but cost as much as Cup 1s did when they were expensive).

Honestly just don't don't buy this as fact given what I've learned from the tyre engineers at Michelin who developed them and original Cups. Fair enough I've not driven them on the CSL but I have on a number of other cars including my GT3 and they are just better at everything, and absolutely obliterate the Trofeo R in the wet. This may be your test result but that doesn't mean it applies to everyone.

They told me to use the Porsche spec tyre on the front of the CSL, and keep the pressures low from the start and not to let them get above 2.5 bar. But I never got the chance.

[shimmy]

Honestly just don't don't buy this as fact given what I've learned from the tyre engineers at Michelin who developed them and original Cups. Fair enough I've not driven them on the CSL but I have on a number of other cars including my GT3 and they are just better at everything, and absolutely obliterate the Trofeo R in the wet. This may be your test result but that doesn't mean it applies to everyone.

They told me to use the Porsche spec tyre on the front of the CSL, and keep the pressures low from the start and not to let them get above 2.5 bar. But I never got the chance.

wish it was true but tbh who cars about wet performance. It's all about dry performance, ability to stay usable and not go off on a 1400kg+ car are the only requirements.

[Mike R]

Honestly just don't don't buy this as fact given what I've learned from the tyre engineers at Michelin who developed them and original Cups. Fair enough I've not driven them on the CSL but I have on a number of other cars including my GT3 and they are just better at everything, and absolutely obliterate the Trofeo R in the wet. This may be your test result but that doesn't mean it applies to everyone.

They told me to use the Porsche spec tyre on the front of the CSL, and keep the pressures low from the start and not to let them get above 2.5 bar. But I never got the chance.

Try them and then comment :p ;).

I am used to Cups, so I tried the pressure settings for those (starting at 25-26 and maintaining them at 31/32) and I tried keeping them at a higher pressure (like you are supposed to with the R888s). Still the same, the grip falls away like the R888s - if anything it falls away quicker (as you would expect) if you try to run them at a higher pressure.

With no weight over the front axle, maybe the Porsche is kinder to the tyres, but they make a special compound rear (specifically for the the weight of the engine) for the Porsche, so the fact that the CSL uses the same front compound as the Porsche is probably half the problem. If they used one specially designed for the car (as the OE Cup 1s were), then maybe they could better deal with the weight over the front wheels like the original Cups could.

[Mike R]

Ta

How much did you pay for the Trofeo R?

£1300

[shimmy]

£1300

Fook

They had better be turbocharged

Dunlops are only £850

[Mike R]

Fook

They had better be turbocharged

Dunlops are only £850

I paid £1200 for my first set of Cups back in the day :bigcry:. Gone are the days of getting them for £800, as they're all gone now :(

[shimmy]

I paid £1200 for my first set of Cups back in the day :bigcry:. Gone are the days of getting them for £800, as they're all gone now :(

Yes most are. I looked at Cup1 285/35/18 for CSL which you can still get but won't fit under arches with my rims, but only £235 each.

[khooni]

dammit. dun the cup 1s grip in the dry......

please make a big batch for csl owners pls Michelin.\\

shite in the wet but who cares.

[AlexGTT]

Does that mean my 2 x Cup 1 sets are worth £2,500/set? :whistle: :hahaha:

[khooni]

fat hope. no one wants them but us track rats. With Cup2s and their all weather prowess, I'll offer you 500 quid per set :whistle:

[LaSource]

I use non N rated Cup 2s (so no special Porsche compound) on a 996 GT3 platform and they work fine - ie far far longer stints than the 3-4 laps suggested above. Fresh tyres in the morning session can take a while to settle down - pm session they are rock steady.

Guess the E46 is much heavier to change the behaviour so much. Though I will try the Cup 2s at some point.


(Btw, I have a full set of slightly used csl size cup 1 which will be advertised soon).

[Mike R]

I use non N rated Cup 2s (so no special Porsche compound) on a 996 GT3 platform and they work fine - ie far far longer stints than the 3-4 laps suggested above. Fresh tyres in the morning session can take a while to settle down - pm session they are rock steady.

Guess the E46 is much heavier to change the behaviour so much. Though I will try the Cup 2s at some point.


(Btw, I have a full set of slightly used csl size cup 1 which will be advertised soon).

The Porsche uses it's tyres differently (slow in fast out) and I understand that the rears are especially developed for the rear engine loading and there is no weight on the fronts (which is the opposite to a BMW). The CSL carries a lot of corner speed and loads the front far more aggressively, hence why it needs something that can take the temps before going off. If you drive your M3 like your Porsche, you may get another lap or two out of the tyre before it goes off, but pushing as hard as you could / would with Cup 1s and the Cup 2s are found wanting.

Even at the 'ring (which isn't overly hard on tyres), you can't do more than two back to back laps with the Cup 2s.

There are three of us that all think the same (all on the relatively heavy front engined / rear drive (BMW) platforms) circa 1300-1400kg.

It will be interesting to see what Alex thinks, as he pushes his CSL hard :).

[shimmy]

The Porsche uses it's tyres differently (slow in fast out) and I understand that the rears are especially developed for the rear engine loading and there is no weight on the fronts (which is the opposite to a BMW). The CSL carries a lot of corner speed and loads the front far more aggressively, hence why it needs something that can take the temps before going off. If you drive your M3 like your Porsche, you may get another lap or two out of the tyre before it goes off, but pushing as hard as you could / would with Cup 1s and the Cup 2s are found wanting.

Even at the 'ring (which isn't overly hard on tyres), you can't do more than two back to back laps with the Cup 2s.

There are three of us that all think the same (all on the relatively heavy front engined / rear drive (BMW) platforms) circa 1300-1400kg.

It will be interesting to see what Alex thinks, as he pushes his CSL hard :).

Strange coz the old Toyo R888 used to go off jus as quick if not quicker with 6GT3 and Rs than the CSL

[Mike R]

Shimmy,
I can't comment on the R888s on cars I haven't tested, but they were absolutely brilliant on a 260bhp Lotus Exige, and as good as they were on that car, they were absolutely shocking (worse than normal road tyres) on my 550bhp Escort. So much so that I actually thought there was something wrong with the car (puncture), as the car started moving around so much after just two hot laps.

Strangely as a road tyre, the R888s were amazing as well, even fairing well in damp conditions. They just seemed to drop off a cliff on track on any car over 1400kg.

Although the Cup 2s aren't quite as bad as the R888s in the way they fall away when they got hot, the drop-off in performance is annoyingly noticeable and spoils the time on track.

I know a guy that loves the R888s on his Z4M running them at 37psi (and he is fast), so it may also be driving style, but I couldn't get the R888s / Cup 2s to perform like the Cup 1s.

I attributed the poor performance of the R888s to sidewalls that weren't stiff enough - perhaps that was the issue with using them on the rear of the GT3s?

[billyboysm3]

Way to go is some Apex Arc's 10J's 18's for track rims with Dunlop 03G

[knoxville]

Agree with Mike and i've said it before. Cup2s are not a patch on old cups or anywhere near the times of the Dunlops or Pirellis.

Cup2s come on quick, but fall off a cliff even faster. Better road tyre than the others but for outright laptimes you need to look elsewhere.

I also drive the car hard.

[AlexGTT]

fat hope. no one wants them but us track rats. With Cup2s and their all weather prowess, I'll offer you 500 quid per set :whistle:

No chance I'd sell them at any price with current situation.

[LaSource]

So let's go with the assumption for now that different platforms perform quite differently with the same tyre.

Last week I tried the Yoko AD08R on a 800kg XBow at Spa. They were really good. Faster than an older set of mixed R888 and R888R. Also much cheaper than the other usual suspects. I see they are available in CSL sizes. Anyone tried these?

(Incidentally the Germans are reporting R888R failures on the KTM - torn sidewalls - hence I didn't use those. Perhaps the higher G loadings on the XBow put more pressure on the tyres in the corners?)

Another point on tyres. Majority of us non professional drivers are always on a learning curve. So comparing views of cup 1 from two years ago to a modern tyre today is risking the rose tinted affect. I'm certainly many seconds quicker today and would be putting many times more demand on my tyres today than two years ago.

[khooni]

fair point. How much is a set of AD08R in CSL sizes and from where?

[Mike R]

fair point. How much is a set of AD08R in CSL sizes and from where?

Search for Ben Patey on Facebook - he is the main man for AD08s (see my thread about the tyres for more info) :).

[alexk]

Another point on tyres. Majority of us non professional drivers are always on a learning curve. So comparing views of cup 1 from two years ago to a modern tyre today is risking the rose tinted affect. I'm certainly many seconds quicker today and would be putting many times more demand on my tyres today than two years ago.

In principle I agree with you. Unless you max out the potential of a setup, it's pointless to compare as you get better.

I am going to compare the cup 1 with the cup 2 tyre in a track that I have over 1400 laps with car (~1000 with the CSL) and 150 with bike.
The only option for me to go faster in this track is if I cut through the grass and skip parts of the track ;) This is how fast I drive the CSL there.
I have the consistency too; I can drive lap after lap within 200ms.

Going in this track with the cup 2s is what I am going to do and I will compare the corner speeds between the 2 tyres.
I hope this makes sense.

[Mike R]

In principle I agree with you. Unless you max out the potential of a setup, it's pointless to compare as you get better.

I am going to compare the cup 1 with the cup 2 tyre in a track that I have over 1400 laps with car (~1000 with the CSL) and 150 with bike.
The only option for me to go faster in this track is if I cut through the grass and skip parts of the track ;) This is how fast I drive the CSL there.
I have the consistency too; I can drive lap after lap within 200ms.

Going in this track with the cup 2s is what I am going to do and I will compare the corner speeds between the 2 tyres.
I hope this makes sense.

Superb, that should finally confirm what most of us have been saying :).

[knoxville]

In principle I agree with you. Unless you max out the potential of a setup, it's pointless to compare as you get better.

I am going to compare the cup 1 with the cup 2 tyre in a track that I have over 1400 laps with car (~1000 with the CSL) and 150 with bike.
The only option for me to go faster in this track is if I cut through the grass and skip parts of the track ;) This is how fast I drive the CSL there.
I have the consistency too; I can drive lap after lap within 200ms.

Going in this track with the cup 2s is what I am going to do and I will compare the corner speeds between the 2 tyres.
I hope this makes sense.

Great. I'll save you the write up.

They're shit.

[shimmy]

Great. I'll save you the write up.

They're shit.

I want to hear more, gotta decide what to get for May in Spa ?

[alexk]

Superb, that should finally confirm what most of us have been saying :).

Mike you first need to learn how to drive the CSL :whistle::whistle::whistle:

[Mike R]

Mike you first need to learn how to drive the CSL :whistle::whistle::whistle:

Let's see if you're still saying the same thing after you have experienced the Cup 2s :blalalala: :gayfight:.

[billyboysm3]

Why not just have goodyear eagle F1's on the CSL rims, buy a set of 18's and run the dunlop 03G.

You can do nice long 25min stints, insane grip, predictable and will keep most drivers on slicks honest.

[Mike R]

Why not just have goodyear eagle F1's on the CSL rims, buy a set of 18's and run the dunlop 03G.

You can do nice long 25min stints, insane grip, predictable and will keep most drivers on slicks honest.

Billy, wash your mouth out - I think you mean MPSS or their successors :blalalala:.

[knoxville]

I want to hear more, gotta decide what to get for May in Spa ?

Dunlops or Pirellis. Not even worth comparing to Cup2.

[shimmy]

Dunlops or Pirellis. Not even worth comparing to Cup2.

Cheers, like i thought

[LaSource]

In principle I agree with you. Unless you max out the potential of a setup, it's pointless to compare as you get better.

I am going to compare the cup 1 with the cup 2 tyre in a track that I have over 1400 laps with car (~1000 with the CSL) and 150 with bike.
The only option for me to go faster in this track is if I cut through the grass and skip parts of the track ;) This is how fast I drive the CSL there.
I have the consistency too; I can drive lap after lap within 200ms.

Going in this track with the cup 2s is what I am going to do and I will compare the corner speeds between the 2 tyres.
I hope this makes sense.

Excellent - that would be perfect :)

However, might I suggest that instead of cup 1 vs cup 2 comparison, if possible we do a cup 2 vs any other modern R tyre (e.g. AD08R, R888R, TrofeoR). That way its between choices we would actually be making.

My guesstimate is that the cup 2 will be quicker on the clock than people are giving it credit for. Granted that consistency/staying on point could be an issue on the relatively heavy M3/CSL as reported by others here. Plus its about all round wet/dry use where the older cup 1 (for example) was not as good with standing water.

Ultimately it does also depend on style/objective of the driver's track outing. I do interrogate my video logger after track events and hence do keep a sharp eye on my driving performance (notwithstanding I'm not a pro)/the car's performance/the tyres at every event. The real world indicator being the lap time.
Hence for me the pace over a decent 30 min stint (in the afternoon when temps/pressures have all settled down) is key.
For others who may not be into the data side of things but enjoy dicing with friends/just driving as fast as possible, they may rate a tyre differently based on things like operating window/longer stint performance etc without perhaps an eye on the lap time.

Anyway, looking forward to what Alex may find against the clock.

In the meantime, I may be choosing between AD08R and Cup 2 for my CSL rims. Both have performed remarkably well on other platforms for me (AD08R/XBow and Cup 2/911s) but I've not tried on the M3. On the M3 I've only tried the R888R which were great on track but too noisy/rumbly for the road. Welcome any thoughts.

[billyboysm3]

Billy, wash your mouth out - I think you mean MPSS or their successors :blalalala:.

I tell you what goodyear Eagle F1's are bloody brilliant tyre, so much wet grip.

Im goodyears all day long.

[billyboysm3]

I would just buy the dunlop 03G, if they handle my aggressive driving style and 25min stints at snett with approx 1360 kg M3 + full tank of fuel and two up you lot will be flying.

All I have ran is the old Dunlop 02g, loads of cup1's, slicks and dunlop 03G's.

Shim you not got any old 18 inch dunlops you can bang on for SPA?

[alexk]

Excellent - that would be perfect :)

However, might I suggest that instead of cup 1 vs cup 2 comparison, if possible we do a cup 2 vs any other modern R tyre (e.g. AD08R, R888R, TrofeoR). That way its between choices we would actually be making.



Very happy to do to this with a crowdfunding account ! :thumbs:

[LaSource]

Sure no problem. £5 waiting here :)

[shimmy]

Sure no problem. £5 waiting here :)

ive got Euro5 spare Alex.......although I guess you are still just on CHF

[shimmy]

I would just buy the dunlop 03G, if they handle my aggressive driving style and 25min stints at snett with approx 1360 kg M3 + full tank of fuel and two up you lot will be flying.

All I have ran is the old Dunlop 02g, loads of cup1's, slicks and dunlop 03G's.

Shim you not got any old 18 inch dunlops you can bang on for SPA?

Slicks are worth about 6 secs at Spa billy, so let me know fi you are taking them and ill know how far down Kemmel i need to be for a fair fight :)


We do have a used set of Dunlops from Dora but just checked the Cups and the tread depth is ok at 3.6mm front and 3.0mm rear, a few years old but they should last one day and the trip out and back.

[billyboysm3]

Slicks are worth about 6 secs at Spa billy, so let me know fi you are taking them and ill know how far down Kemmel i need to be for a fair fight :)


We do have a used set of Dunlops from Dora but just checked the Cups and the tread depth is ok at 3.6mm front and 3.0mm rear, a few years old but they should last one day and the trip out and back.

Its 1st time at Spa so rather just go on road tyres TBH and arrive and have a laugh.

Your track knowledge should be worth 10 - 15 seconds a lap.

I will be taking it easy.

[shimmy]

Its 1st time at Spa so rather just go on road tyres TBH and arrive and have a laugh.

Your track knowledge should be worth 10 - 15 seconds a lap.

I will be taking it easy.

Sensible coz there is a lot of corners to learn and a long say with 6pm track close.

Have you still got the Dunlops?