Csl v gt3 996

[Csl spurs]

I Know alot of guys on here have owned both but which car is the best all rounder Track and road the CSL or a 996 GT3 as i feel age wise this is the model that compares to the CSL not a new one! Just intrested to hear as always loved the Gt3 but havent driven one.

[Trawler]

I Know alot of guys on here have owned both but which car is the best all rounder Track and road the CSL or a 996 GT3 as i feel age wise this is the model that compares to the CSL not a new one! Just intrested to hear as always loved the Gt3 but havent driven one.

Go to m3csl.de and klick on Misc. then Mag test.

You might need a dictionary :hahaha:

Sorry for some season I cannot do a linky.

[LaSource]

Ask here and then ask on a Porsche forum....then compare answers. Look for common answers if they exist :)

My money is on the 996 GT3 but I have my own bias.

[cslsuperfan]

I Know alot of guys on here have owned both but which car is the best all rounder Track and road the CSL or a 996 GT3 as i feel age wise this is the model that compares to the CSL not a new one! Just intrested to hear as always loved the Gt3 but havent driven one.


Real toughy to answer. CSL is just so well balanced but lacks that top end punch. Never driven a 996 GT3 but been to a few Destination Events @ the Ring and know a few guys who drive the 996 GT3 "well" .

Both @ Spa & the Ring the GT3 has the legs on the straights but they're very evenly matched when you introduce some changes in direction.

996 is keenly priced at the moment compared to the 997/991.

[khooni]

cost aside.

It really comes down to how you feel re the FR config vs the RR config.
There is no right answer I'm afraid.
I prefer FR and MR as to LaSource (preferring RR)

Best to try both :thumbs:

[shimmy]

Ask here and then ask on a Porsche forum....then compare answers. Look for common answers if they exist :)

My money is on the 996 GT3 but I have my own bias.

I think the difference on track with a CSL and 6GT3 are very small overall, just that the CSL will need a few more extra bits to get it to perform well on track that's the GT3. The GT3 will have a huge advantage over the CSL on slow corners but on medium and fast entry, CSL will take a bit more space back.

I think put a pro in both and they will get a GT3 to go faster around most tracks, but us hobby drivers might just prefer the easy nature of the CSL.

At Spa I think the CSL is faster but FLow would be a better man to give a balanced opinion if he was still around. La Source here has the 6RS which def has a bit more if driven well :whistle:

[Pip1968]

I have both and think that the GT3 is more of an event to drive. The CSL is a lovely car and I like the stripped back nature and relative simplicity over the standard M3 but still do not really like the fact that it is an 'automatic' with paddles. The GT3 is more of a drivers car, more involving and most importantly a stick shift. 996 also have no DSC/PSM so no driver aids. A real drivers car.

I have not sold the CSL mainly because of its iconic status but if it was worth a bit more I would sell her and buy a GT3 RS. Each to their own of course.

The 991 GT3/RS has been similarly ruined by paddle shift. Shame.

Pip

[nw99]

Totally agree traded my CSL for a manual GT3 RS never looked back .

[Csl spurs]

Some great posts in reply and much what I expected to hear I also agree about having no traction control ect and a manual.

[cslsuperfan]

Not having the driver aids in the 996 would be a risk at my level of hobbyness

Last DN event in 2016 ended with a friend in a 996 GT3 taking a little too much forward momentum into the foxhole and getting the yellow truck of happiness back to the pits.

But I do respect all you guys/girls who prefer no aids and stick shifts.

:thumbs:

[Pip1968]

Yes it is very much live by the sword die by the sword but then plenty of CSL have gone despite DSC. What does the BMW booklet say ... something about it not being able to defy the laws of physics. It is of course still an elevated risk.

Was it actually in the Foxhole or the bend into Adenauer Forst? You do see a lot going too fast into the chicane at Adenauer. Hopefully it was repairable.

Pip

[LaSource]

I have both and think that the GT3 is more of an event to drive. The CSL is a lovely car and I like the stripped back nature and relative simplicity over the standard M3 but still do not really like the fact that it is an 'automatic' with paddles. The GT3 is more of a drivers car, more involving and most importantly a stick shift. 996 also have no DSC/PSM so no driver aids. A real drivers car.

I have not sold the CSL mainly because of its iconic status but if it was worth a bit more I would sell her and buy a GT3 RS. Each to their own of course.

The 991 GT3/RS has been similarly ruined by paddle shift. Shame.

Pip

Being a manual laggard, I'm with pip on this.

Hence I have a updated for track manual E46 M3 and not a CSL. But i do appreciate that the CSL is a very special car in terms of performance, uniqueness, and collectibility.

So if I compare the 996 GT3 to an E46 M3:
996 GT3:
More of an occasion
Motorsport ready out of the box (brake upgrade only needed once you are motoring fairy quickly). The M3 needed many changes, weight reduction, etc
Rear engine layout provides a longer (and more rewarding) learning journey
Very robust car - can weather heavy track use with minimal mechanical issues

M3:
Sweet balance (easier to drive and I don't mean that as a negative)
Much quicker on the clock than it feels in the seat
Built for the ring though lower power becomes more obvious on traditional circuits
Great allrounder for road/school runs/daily driver/transport wheels, etc

That's just a summary. Naturally one could write pages on them.

I found that at the ring the M3 balance was just sublime and the pace difference between the 996 GT3 and the M3 not all that great (circa 10 seconds BTG?). The front engined nature of the M3 gives superb turn in grip with a trailing rear end. I was pleasantly surprised how much I enjoyed it there.

On a traditional circuit like spa or Silverstone I think the difference is more marked.

On the road, the M3 is far more useable and kinda fun too as you can drive it that little bit harder and not be out of shape/warp speed etc.

I'm not an expert driver but the following two clips may help to show the relative difference at the same circuit with the same driver.

(Will post once I figure out how to embed vids!)

[shimmy]

Being a manual laggard, I'm with pip on this.

Hence I have a updated for track manual E46 M3 and not a CSL. But i do appreciate that the CSL is a very special car in terms of performance, uniqueness, and collectibility.

So if I compare the 996 GT3 to an E46 M3:
996 GT3:
More of an occasion
Motorsport ready out of the box (brake upgrade only needed once you are motoring fairy quickly). The M3 needed many changes, weight reduction, etc
Rear engine layout provides a longer (and more rewarding) learning journey
Very robust car - can weather heavy track use with minimal mechanical issues

M3:
Sweet balance (easier to drive and I don't mean that as a negative)
Much quicker on the clock than it feels in the seat
Built for the ring though lower power becomes more obvious on traditional circuits
Great allrounder for road/school runs/daily driver/transport wheels, etc

That's just a summary. Naturally one could write pages on them.

I found that at the ring the M3 balance was just sublime and the pace difference between the 996 GT3 and the M3 not all that great (circa 10 seconds BTG?). The front engined nature of the M3 gives superb turn in grip with a trailing rear end. I was pleasantly surprised how much I enjoyed it there.

On a traditional circuit like spa or Silverstone I think the difference is more marked.

On the road, the M3 is far more useable and kinda fun too as you can drive it that little bit harder and not be out of shape/warp speed etc.

I'm not an expert driver but the following two clips may help to show the relative difference at the same circuit with the same driver.

(Will post once I figure out how to embed vids!)

Do you have a vanilla GT3 as well as 6Rs?

[billyboysm3]

Remember the CSL out of the box with Decent coilovers and AP's is a weapon. A M3 is just way off when trying to get to to lap quickly, until you have spent a fortune on it.

Would love a GT3.

[LaSource]

Being a manual laggard, I'm with pip on this.

Hence I have a updated for track manual E46 M3 and not a CSL. But i do appreciate that the CSL is a very special car in terms of performance, uniqueness, and collectibility.

So if I compare the 996 GT3 to an E46 M3:
996 GT3:
More of an occasion
Motorsport ready out of the box (brake upgrade only needed once you are motoring fairy quickly). The M3 needed many changes, weight reduction, etc
Rear engine layout provides a longer (and more rewarding) learning journey
Very robust car - can weather heavy track use with minimal mechanical issues

M3:
Sweet balance (easier to drive and I don't mean that as a negative)
Much quicker on the clock than it feels in the seat
Built for the ring though lower power becomes more obvious on traditional circuits
Great allrounder for road/school runs/daily driver/transport wheels, etc

That's just a summary. Naturally one could write pages on them.

I found that at the ring the M3 balance was just sublime and the pace difference between the 996 GT3 and the M3 not all that great (circa 10 seconds BTG?). The front engined nature of the M3 gives superb turn in grip with a trailing rear end. I was pleasantly surprised how much I enjoyed it there.

On a traditional circuit like spa or Silverstone I think the difference is more marked.

On the road, the M3 is far more useable and kinda fun too as you can drive it that little bit harder and not be out of shape/warp speed etc.

I'm not an expert driver but the following two clips may help to show the relative difference at the same circuit with the same driver.

(Will post once I figure out how to embed vids!)


Ok, here goes...

The ring in a 996 GT3 (Cup 2 tyres, Nitron suspension)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC8Hwq1PwaI&t=228s

[LaSource]

The ring in a E46 M3 (R888R tyres, KW Clubsport, AP Racing Brakes, eVenturi intake/eVolve map and a few other things)

Sadly we hit a white flag zone from mini karussell onwards...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lPMm1D8VLE


If the embeds don't work well then click on the Youtube icon for a larger screen

[LaSource]

Do you have a vanilla GT3 as well as 6Rs?

Yes I did. Sadly the GT3 had to leave me after an incident last year.

Remember the CSL out of the box with Decent coilovers and AP's is a weapon. A M3 is just way off when trying to get to to lap quickly, until you have spent a fortune on it.

Would love a GT3.

I agree the CSL is better focused and a slightly faster car pace wise especially with 20 odd hp more, lighter weight, and a faster gearbox

However, I would have thought you end up doing the same to both the CSL and M3 for harder track use - ie coilovers, brakes, cooling - granted the seats are better in the CSL but then for harnesses guess they need changing too in both.

The only extra would be some form of intake/map to increase power a bit and taking out the rear seats before a ring trip :)

[shimmy]

Yes I did. Sadly the GT3 had to leave me after an incident last year.



I agree the CSL is better focused and a slightly faster car pace wise especially with 20 odd hp more, lighter weight, and a faster gearbox

However, I would have thought you end up doing the same to both the CSL and M3 for harder track use - ie coilovers, brakes, cooling - granted the seats are better in the CSL but then for harnesses guess they need changing too in both.

The only extra would be some form of intake/map to increase power a bit and taking out the rear seats before a ring trip :)

You do have to do a whole load more to an M3 to get close to the CSL pace. Ask Billy.

[LaSource]

You do have to do a whole load more to an M3 to get close to the CSL pace. Ask Billy.

Sorry I was making a different point. I wasn't trying to say that an M3 is as fast as a CSL (or can be easily). I was just saying that to drive each car reliably on the track (at pace) requires a similar amount of upgrade effort.

...to make the M3 then match the pace of the CSL yes would require quite a bit to overcome the differences in power, weight, and gearbox (if manual M3)

As an example, I have upgraded my M3 a certain amount to make it a better track going car. But I've not tried to make it a CSL beater :)

[billyboysm3]

You do have to do a whole load more to an M3 to get close to the CSL pace. Ask Billy.

Change everything on it :banged:

But hey the CSL set the bench mark so high and easy to drive fast.

[Mike R]

Stock car -vs- stock car with same driver (good old Horst ;) ), 996 GT3 = 7.54, CSL = 7.50 ('ring lap time). All the info you need ;).

[shimmy]

Change everything on it :banged:

But hey the CSL set the bench mark so high and easy to drive fast.

Thank god!

[LaSource]

Stock car -vs- stock car with same driver (good old Horst ;) ), 996 GT3 = 7.54, CSL = 7.50 ('ring lap time). All the info you need ;).

Stop it :)

We also need to know tyres.
996.1GT3 was PS2 I believe
CSL was Cup 1s

996.2GT3 was never quoted with Cup tyres I believe

:)


...but before we start a brand war, I did say that on the clock the delta between the two cars at the ring is not all that much

[shimmy]

Stop it :)

We also need to know tyres.
996.1GT3 was PS2 I believe
CSL was Cup 1s

996.2GT3 was never quoted with Cup tyres I believe

:)


...but before we start a brand war, I did say that on the clock the delta between the two cars at the ring is not all that much

I still dont know why that is a factor.....GT3 didnt come with Cups

[LaSource]

I still dont know why that is a factor.....GT3 didnt come with Cups

N-spec Cups for the GT3 were made available after launch.

Anyway, the two cars are close enough that the biggest determinant is the driver behind the wheel. A better driver will be faster than a less accomplished one whichever of the two cars he/she picks.

[cslsuperfan]

Yes it is very much live by the sword die by the sword but then plenty of CSL have gone despite DSC. What does the BMW booklet say ... something about it not being able to defy the laws of physics. It is of course still an elevated risk.

Was it actually in the Foxhole or the bend into Adenauer Forst? You do see a lot going too fast into the chicane at Adenauer. Hopefully it was repairable.

Pip


Pip ,
it was the left hander just after the compression. just tried grabbing an extra tenth from the kurb and hey presto.
This was an unusual error from a very competent driver....8 minutes full lap!

Car is now OK and thankfully no one was hurt ( kept us amused in the Pistonklause for a couple of nights!!!)

[Pip1968]

Ah yes there, the L hander before Adenauer Forst. I seem to remember that a known 'face' on here also had a bit of an episode there and had to make a recovery in his CSL due to upsetting the car on the curb. It must have been a year or two ago (probably longer - not sure if it was "Hobby driver") and was posted on here.

Main thing is the car has recovered, the driver increased his knowledge of the Nordchleife and most of all the car is being enjoyed as it should. There is a post on the 911UK site in the GT/RS section asking if anyone still tracks their cars. It is a sad day when a CSL or GT3 is sat in a garage. You are a long time dead ;).

Pip

[Trawler]

Yes pip.
Too many people are too scared to experience life. I don't know if this is because more people have an interest in making money, or the fecking elf and safety culture. A lot of the teenagers/20/30 old kids that I know are just boring. And that's coming from a right old fahrt.

[CraigMillwardCroft]

Yes pip.
Too many people are too scared to experience life. I don't know if this is because more people have an interest in making money, or the fecking elf and safety culture. A lot of the teenagers/20/30 old kids that I know are just boring. And that's coming from a right old fahrt.

:hahaha::hahaha:

[Pooky]

Ah yes there, the L hander before Adenauer Forst. I seem to remember that a known 'face' on here also had a bit of an episode there and had to make a recovery in his CSL due to upsetting the car on the curb. It must have been a year or two ago (probably longer - not sure if it was "Hobby driver") and was posted on here.

Main thing is the car has recovered, the driver increased his knowledge of the Nordchleife and most of all the car is being enjoyed as it should. There is a post on the 911UK site in the GT/RS section asking if anyone still tracks their cars. It is a sad day when a CSL or GT3 is sat in a garage. You are a long time dead ;).

Pip

Was nice to see just how many GT3s there were at DN this year, but only one CSL if I recall.

[cslsuperfan]

Ah yes there, the L hander before Adenauer Forst. I seem to remember that a known 'face' on here also had a bit of an episode there and had to make a recovery in his CSL due to upsetting the car on the curb. It must have been a year or two ago (probably longer - not sure if it was "Hobby driver") and was posted on here.

Main thing is the car has recovered, the driver increased his knowledge of the Nordchleife and most of all the car is being enjoyed as it should. There is a post on the 911UK site in the GT/RS section asking if anyone still tracks their cars. It is a sad day when a CSL or GT3 is sat in a garage. You are a long time dead ;).

Pip


Totally agree Pip.

My former CSL was more than familiar with Spa and the Ring.

The car line up at the last DN event was fit for Royalty. 991/997 RS's aplenty not to mention a gaggle of Carrera GT's.