CSL or GT3 the age old question

[Jon8710]

Hello all

im having worrying thoughts about 911's again and just wanted to run some of my man maths past you to see if im being a silly sod or if its something I should run with as it might be my last chance for a while.

im getting married this weekend and after the ball busting out lay this has cost im weighing up my car options for the future and im sure kids will be knocking at my door in the next few years and then all obscene purchases like fast cars are out of the window for about 15-20 years and my brother once told me get your toys while you can!!!

so here's my thoughts

I could sell the CSL "with a heavy heart" and with the help from HSBC get my self into a 997 GT3.1 fine

but my question to you in the know is do you think with the whole brexit thing and all that the bottom is going to fall out of all this and my £80k GT3 will be worth £50k in the not to far future or are these machines still sought-after enough that they are going to hold up no matter what "within reason" happens?

or do you see cars like the CSL and GT3 only ever appreciate.

it has never really bothered me regarding the CSL as I bought it at it lowest point and have been lucky enough to ride the wave of appreciation
although it will hurt to buy a car at the top of its wave of appreciation if it had not been for the CSL raise I could never have afforded something like a GT3.

I know its not all about money but as mentioned I feel lucky enough to have owned a car that has risen in value and I don't want to blow it.

answers on a postcard please

jon

[Yanto]

Fook knows on values mate.

But first, congratulations on the big day and second, do what you can, when you can ! If it's within grasp and an ambition to get into Pork, I think you've already answered your own question !

[Jon8710]

thanks very much mate,
i havent been on here much over the last few months but im going to try and get out for a few bevs for the xmas doo,

its more of a change thing really i love cars as we all do and i want to experiance lots of different ones,

the CSL has been one of the best cars i have owned and dont want to sell it but obvs cant own both,

none of this will happen untill spring anyway just looking for some guidance.

cheers

j

[Alx]

Hello,

Congratulations on your wedding (I had mine 2 month ago). :-)

I am a bit in the same situation as you.

I would love a 997, but in GTS form, since values seem to be closer to the CSL.

I think I will keep the CSL in the end. Despite being disappointed with modern BMWs, I am still a BMW fan and the CSL is more practical and could even get used if the family gets bigger.

All the best,
Alex

[nw99]

Brexit has caused a lull in the classic car market and GT3's have come down in price . Having had one before I would definitely say buy one while you can it's a great car.

[Jon8710]

Hi thanks for the comments,

I was also looking into the GTS it's a great looking car fully loaded as well!!

I'm more inclined to the GT3 as I feel it will hold its price more and if I'm taking out a loan to make up the short fall I don't want to be paying of money that I won't have any chance of seeing back if you know what I mean.

[still no worries]

Hi mate
I did the marriage thing 7 years ago followed by twin boys 5 years ago, since the boys I've only put 5 thou on the Csl so you could say they've made me money, as for the gt3 lovely car but I don't thing I could part my csl.

[GregorFuk]

If you can comfortably afford the CSL but would have to stretch yourself and get into debt to buy a GT3 I'd honestly stick with the CSL. As someone who works in the oil industry I can tell you that you never know when things may start to slide and it's always easier to hold onto something that's already bought and paid for.

[DazBlackCSL]

Congrats on the big day :beer:

So as I waved goodbye to the CSL a few years ago, after 4 plus superb years of ownership my sadness was diluted somewhat due to the incoming GT3 7.1.

In a nut shell, GT3 was a great great car and I'm glad I ticked the ownership box, but I miss my CSL, the end. ;)

[DazBlackCSL]

If you can comfortably afford the CSL but would have to stretch yourself and get into debt to buy a GT3 I'd honestly stick with the CSL. As someone who works in the oil industry I can tell you that you never know when things may start to slide and it's always easier to hold onto something that's already bought and paid for.

So true :beer:

[glendog74]

So true :beer:

Thank you please :beer:

[DazBlackCSL]

Thank you please :beer:

:beer::beer::smt055

[PeteGray]

Buy the GT3, it's definitely different enough to the CSL to justify a change and, in my view, worth the extra outlay for that different experience.

I can't see the car market nose diving but, there's already a gentle drift down in prices as the economy continues to stumble forward amid political uncertainty (not sure this is the case with the CSL?).

I firmly believe that new low's have been created for special cars, such as CSL's and GT3's, and you should get most, if not all of your money back when you sell.

A potential threat to the 997.1 price is the introduction of the 991.2, manual, GT3 (there not having been a manual GT3 in the 991 series before). That said, the majority of 991.2 GT3 buyers may well spec the PDK box, so it's not a given that this will overly affect prices.

Regardless of the 991.2, the 997.1/2 GT3's are very special cars in their own right and still look like very good value against a lot of older air cooled Porsche's.

Now the dust has settled on the Cayman GT4 there seems to be a growing voice that believes that the 997 GT3's is still the better car, and certainly has the better, GT3 specific engine, whilst the GT4 has the normal 991.1 Carrera engine. Prices of GT4's are still higher than the 997, which is understandable as their all mega low miles, look great, go great, and have lovely interiors. Give it a few years though and the pull of the 911 could see the 997 move ahead of the GT4 and further underpin prices.

[Pip1968]

Jon8710, personally I would also say go for it. I cannot see the bottom falling out of the GT3. I bought a 996 GT3 (arguably a more hardcore GT3 with no aids whatsoever apart from ABS) back when the CSL was unloved at £25-30,000. Then the GT3 was cygnet waiting to become the swan price wise at least. This was around 2009 and most 996 GT3 were around £45,000. About two/three years ago prices went mad - up to £70-80,000 and this has subsided slightly as everyone started selling. 997 GT3/RS reflected this at a slightly elevated price as it is a newer model.

At the time I nearly opted for the 996 GT3 RS which at £60,000 was stretching my budget. Well that was a mistake as they are now £120-150,000 ish. In deciding to keep the CSL as an icon and occasional track toy I opted for the GT3 over the RS.

The GT3 is a beautiful drive and very different from the CSL. The car is so tactile you feel completely in touch with the road and the car's response to changes in undulation, camber, turn et cetera (mine has been set up for track). I hate to say it but I prefer it to the CSL. The main bugbear being that the GT3 is stick/manual and the CSL is paddle shift.

Back onto topic I cannot see the bottom falling out of the market on these. The 996 and 997 both run the race proven Mezger engine and are stick drive. The 991 GT3 came along and there was no manual option and no racing history (see exploding GT3 engines) so suddenly 996 and 997 prices took off. There maybe a small adjustment if Porsche do issue a 991 GT3/RS with stick but I cannot imagine it will be much if at all. They are very different cars.

Most drivers of Porsche GT3/RS like the full interaction of a car without all the electronic gimmickery on the 991s. Even the motorsport boss Andreas Preuninger recognized this and so the 991R was made (sold out immediately and prices through the roof). Unfortunately most buyers new are not the real enthusiasts that end up with them once the 'shiny kit syndrome' is over or the car is over three years old. What I am saying here is I do not think there will be any great drop.

The biggest reason for a drop would be a sudden increase in interest rates so that those speculators actually prefer the liquidity of cash and so sell these 'investments'. And when is that ever going to happen - no time soon.

One thing to bear in mind is that the Porsche is a far more expensive car to run. It is best kept as a second car or track toy. Do you intend in tracking her? Are you going to get Clubsport specification (more expensive than Comfort Spec - comes with bucket seats, roll cage and only two seats).

I think the other thing to think about is will you go back to a CSL as finding a good one could prove difficult. In theory you will have the funds to get back in due to the price disparity between the CSL and a GT3.

Personally I hanker after a GT3 RS although they are not massively different from the GT3 and in the back of my mind do not want to regret selling the CSL. The 996 GT3 is a keeper.

I think Outnumbered or someone else had a 997 GT3 RS in orange as well as a CSL. Maybe worth a PM.

Best of luck.

Pip

[nw99]

Very well written Pip , couldn't agree more I have love my 997 GT3 RS would only sell it for the next manual Porsche RS.

[Mr Prem]

Do it! You only live once.....

[billyboysm3]

Do it as once you have kids very close together its a life changer, wouldn't change it for the world but as far as cars, track days or even having a shower in piece whole different ball game.

[glendog74]

Do it as once you have kids very close together its a life changer, wouldn't change it for the world but as far as cars, track days or even having a shower in piece whole different ball game.

Yip... :banghead:

[GregorFuk]

Yip... :banghead:

Hmm. But you can put your kids in the back of a CSL. Not so a GT3. (Yes yes, I know some people have retrofitted seats and belts in the back).

[nw99]

Don't want the kids in the back of my racing cars ! But point taken

[stevenEK9]

came very close to selling my M3, using some of the profit of the sale of my flat and buying a very nice 996 GT3 which i even went to view

decided against it in the end and spent some money tidying up a few bits on the M3 and really finishing off what I had started with it

reasoning was 2 fold really.........

would I get more driving pleasure from the GT3? yes they are special cars but having flashed most of them out the way at the ring and out dragged a few out of corners, I know there really isn't much performance benefit in the change

would I be more anal about the value of the car and this would distract from the driving pleasure? yes it would..........

for me at least it came down to want and not need, very glad with my decision to stick with the m3



my ultimate dream car is however a 997.1 RS in orange, was lucky enough to spend alot of time in the passenger seat of one at the ring on a trackday recently, this one has a few tweaks too.......

it was incredible and if finances allowed I would have one in a heartbeat, the noise, the looks, the engineering, the noise

did i mention the noise?

brilliant cars

[J2LTB]

Jon not as OP but you have mentioned a GTS . This is exactly what I have done. The Csl has gone and I'm in a 2011 Carrera 2 GTS PDK. What a fantastic car. I can't say you won't regret getting rid of the Csl but this certainly fills most of the void. It's a completely different animal. It does everything so well. I'm not saying it uneventful but compared to the Csl it is. Speed wise 408 horses makes it gather speed quite a bit faster but it's not as eventful.
Toys wise it's like leaping 2 model generations. Build quality is better and servicing costs alone are cheaper than Bmw . So I'm told haha.
Like me you bought at the right time. If your ready for a change then go for it.

[Jon8710]

Gents
Thanks so much for all your comments they have really helped me,
I think I'm sticking with the CSL for some to come it's still so special
And demands ultimate respect, I also have a 30k mile 1979 635csi so I think I'm going To put the money into that with a nut and bolt restoration and thank my lucky stars I get to drive these two Bute's.
The wedding went well on Saturday the 635 was my wedding car!!
I will put a pic up when I get them through.
You have me for a little longer yet sorry,
Cheers
Jon

[Trawler]

Congratulations.

You have time to post so soon after your wedding. You must be worn out :hahaha:

[cslsuperfan]

John

Tough decision to make

The CSL is probably the best car given the relative money needed to buy one against the cost of a GT3.

But its not a GT3 and never will be.

Race car from the wheels up against a very capable coupe that's got room for a full set of Wilsons.

:smokin:

[GregorFuk]

I might add that kids do not mean the end of fun cars. Not in my experience anyhow.

[ac427]

It would have to be a 997 GT3 or better so it would actually faster on track than a CSL.

The 996 is not as quick or as nice to look at, especially with those ugly headlights.

I drove a 997.1 GT3 on the road for a day and loved it.

The argument then, was a 90k GT3 was a bit much to risk on track vs a 30k CSL but now both have increased in price so i guess that is a moot point.

What about a CSL with a supercharger ?

[cslsuperfan]

It would have to be a 997 GT3 or better so it would actually faster on track than a CSL.

The 996 is not as quick or as nice to look at, especially with those ugly headlights.

I drove a 997.1 GT3 on the road for a day and loved it.

The argument then, was a 90k GT3 was a bit much to risk on track vs a 30k CSL but now both have increased in price so i guess that is a moot point.

What about a CSL with a supercharger ?


Very valid points, especially the additional risk of piling in your 100K plus investment.....

never fails to impress me @ the Ring. This year at DN16 I saw three Carerra GT's posting very respectable times......and at £500,000 a pop they really are becoming priceless.

[nw99]

I never take my RS on the track mind you never took any of the CSL's or my M2 . I am a garage queen expert.

[Pooky]

Did N'ring DN, Spa twice, Brands, Donington and Rockingham with my CSL.

Did two days at N'ring DN this year in my 997 GT3 6 weeks after buying it.

It's what they're built for.

[Pip1968]

I never take my RS on the track mind you never took any of the CSL's or my M2 . I am a garage queen expert.

Shame on you. I take my GT3 and CSL regularly to the Nordschleife and am sure it will all end in tears one day but ...."it is better to live one day as a lion than 100 years as a lamb" as they say.

You never get to fully exploit its true abilities unless you go on track.The other alternative is an instant ban and even then you are unlikely to have fully exploited her. Anyone can drive fast in a straight line.

Pip :whistle:

[cslsuperfan]

Shame on you. I take my GT3 and CSL regularly to the Nordschleife and am sure it will all end in tears one day but ...."it is better to live one day as a lion than 100 years as a lamb" as they say.

You never get to fully exploit its true abilities unless you go on track.The other alternative is an instant ban and even then you are unlikely to have fully exploited her. Anyone can drive fast in a straight line.

Pip :whistle:

Couldn't agree more.......bit like buying a ROLEX and never wearing it.

But hey this is not the other forum and therefore I shall report myself to the nearest moderator for alleged slander against a fellow member. ;)

[Loaded]

I never take my RS on the track mind you never took any of the CSL's or my M2 . I am a garage queen expert.

My garage queens are the CSL and the Sport Evo. I've used the GT2 RS a lot on track days, RSR Spa and extensively in road trips.

Now, i'm thinking to get rid off the GT4 and see if i can find a 997.1 GT3 RS for track use only..


@Jon8710 if you can, go for a GT3 RS and keep them both. Both are excellent and of course are keepers!

[CraigMillwardCroft]

Shame on you. I take my GT3 and CSL regularly to the Nordschleife and am sure it will all end in tears one day but ...."it is better to live one day as a lion than 100 years as a lamb" as they say.

You never get to fully exploit its true abilities unless you go on track.The other alternative is an instant ban and even then you are unlikely to have fully exploited her. Anyone can drive fast in a straight line.

Pip :whistle:

+1 :thumbs:

[Jon8710]

My garage queens are the CSL and the Sport Evo. I've used the GT2 RS a lot on track days, RSR Spa and extensively in road trips.

Now, i'm thinking to get rid off the GT4 and see if i can find a 997.1 GT3 RS for track use only..


@Jon8710 if you can, go for a GT3 RS and keep them both. Both are excellent and of course are keepers!

It's a lovely idea mate but last time I checked I'm not a billionaire unfortunately,
The All my cash is the CSL but I could stretch to 80k if I sold that and borrowed and little and put some savings in.
As said before I think I'm going to stay put with Cecil and be thankful for that.

[Loaded]

As said before I think I'm going to stay put with Cecil and be thankful for that.

In my opinion you took the correct decision.

:thumbs:

[sfh3l]

It's a long time since I've been on here, but thought I'd add my two-penneth to this thread. Good to hear you still have "my" CSL and I know what a blast it was.

I had the pleasure of a day driving a GTS and it was a lovely car. However, in my humble opinion, it didn't come close to the CSL for sheer "specialness" and thrill. I would also say that I didn't think it was sufficiently different to the lesser 911's for me to be really excited about it.

The GT3 is something else, of course - Porsche's "CSL" for the 911. I think that the experience there would be as mind-blowing as the CSL and might indeed take it to another level. However, it is also a stack more cash, as you observe. My worry would be that you gear up and chop the Cesil in for a nice GT3 and find yourself still with all your cash locked up in a car, but just a different, more costly one. If you need any cash in the future there's then more danger that the toy has to go. With the Cesil as relatively cheaply bought as it was, it doesn't owe you nearly as much as a GT3 would.

I look out for lots of cars on the road, especially ones I own or have owned in the past and I see far more GT3's than I do CSL's.

There are two cars I sorely regret selling in my past. The first was the Sport Evo, which was a sublime little car and only stood me in at ten grand. Mistake. The second was the CSL I sold to you. Probably my second mistake. I managed to hold onto my interesting cars through the time when my kids were young (married 26 years December just gone), but those are definitely limiting times.

Just think very carefully before you take your next step - from one with a few regrets to another who might be able to avoid them ;)

Now for one of my non-mistakes, here's where I was in September, on the way to the BMW Centenary Celebrations in Munich:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a5/sfh3l/ms-ringpics_TF06092016-1954_Original%20priv.%20Nutzung.jpg (http://s8.photobucket.com/user/sfh3l/media/ms-ringpics_TF06092016-1954_Original%20priv.%20Nutzung.jpg.html)

Imagine when your Cesil is 45 years old, still being able to enjoy it the way it should be...........:thumbs:

[Alx]

Thanks for sharing your experience.

What a nice picture; I love the 3.0 CSL!

[glendog74]

Thanks for sharing your experience.

What a nice picture; I love the 3.0 CSL!

+1 :smokin:

[Jon8710]

Hi Sam
Good to hear from you I'm glad you are well and still peddling that E9 stunner,
I was thinking about you just last week as a chap that woks near me has a identical csl as yours and he must have just got it out of hibernation.
I thank you for your input, to be honest it is something I already knew deep down agree with you on all points.
I have had the Porsche itch for a while but don't want to loose the csl to scratch it, I have always have a soft spot for a 996 c4s and seeing as they have bottomed out at price now "just like when I bought your csl sorry"
I think I might push the button in the spring and make out it's a car for my wife's birthday but that might have different levels of success I will keep you posted.
The csl has been a total joy to own and it's a testament to how you looked after it, hopefully catch up one day for a good chin wag.
Hers a pic for old time sake
Cheers

[sfh3l]

Cheers Guys and Jon, you know she needs it. We should all think a lot more of our dear ladies and she will be over the moon with a 996 C4 if she has anything about her :smokin: Just tell her a Financial Advisor told you it was a good investment :supz:

Love the pic of the E46 CSL and think you are bang on with the 996, price and all. I bought my '72 T in 2011 just before I sold the Cesil, so I don't reckon I've done too badly either. I don't think Brexit will destroy cars at that level in the marketplace - perhaps the £1.2M 2.7 RS, but anything is going to pinch cars priced that far from reality. You could always by your 996 in left-hand-drive form as added insurance, but I wouldn't worry.

[nw942]

Ignoring value for money, something like this could scratch the itch: http://www.porsche.com/silverstone/en/experience/porschedrivingexperience/gtexperience/?

Or just make it worse.

[Jon8710]

Lot of dosh but looks really good,