2003 2004 CSL Values

[GeorgeM]

Hello Folks,

I am in the market for a CSL and have been researching the values of these cars. Only one article written a year ago...... I cannot seem to find a guide (Haggertys) etc.... to determine what to expect to pay... A clean low mile car, 20k miles or under.... I found a few for sale but high miles and right hand models..... Any thoughts or guidance on where to determine value? Thanks in advance....

If anyone has sold one recently, low miles would you share your price range...


Regards,

George

[Mike R]

If it is a LHD one you are after, they tend to be even more than RHD models.

20k mile examples tend to be valued at £75k to £85k in RHD (there was a 10ker that went for £100k a few months ago), and well over 100k Euros for a similar mileage LHD example.

[Duck360198]

How come LHD models are significantly higher in price?

The CSL is one car I just can't get a grasp on for values. So many examples that appear to be in great condition just sit for a long time. One particular car I've been interested in has been for sale for nearly a year and the price has remained the same over that time.

[Gazza]

Sellers aren't going to give away an appreciating vehicle whatever the mileage.

You need to balance your wants and budget.

Some get very attached to their cars and wouldn't sell for any price.

If you want a low mileage garage queen then expect big prices.

There are cars out there with higher mileage that get dismissed without a viewing.

Service history is important but doesn't mean the car has been trouble free.

These cars won't appear for sale on your doorstep, you must be prepared to travel.

[Gazza]

How come LHD models are significantly higher in price?

The CSL is one car I just can't get a grasp on for values. So many examples that appear to be in great condition just sit for a long time. One particular car I've been interested in has been for sale for nearly a year and the price has remained the same over that time.

When you say 'interested' do you mean to buy or do you 'follow' the car ?

[GeorgeM]

Thank you for some insight.... I called a local classic appraiser also and he said he didnt have a clue...... I did happen to locate a LHD with 17,000 miles.... Just trying to get a feel for its current value.... He was asking $120,000 US but I think it can be purchased for less.....

[Duck360198]

When you say 'interested' do you mean to buy or do you 'follow' the car ?

To buy. I'm being very particular in that I want a car with the fewest options possible (i.e. no AC, no xenons, no radio, etc) but everyone feels their car is better than any other and prices it accordingly. But when a car sits for nearly a year with no movement in price doesn't that mean it may be time for an adjustment?

I could get a RHD car optioned the way I want, but not sure I want a RHD car. I feel the novelty would wear off...but for several thousand off maybe it's worth it??

[GeorgeM]

Duck,

So the car that has been sitting, can you please tell me what they are asking for it... and miles.... thank you in advance

George

[Mike R]

How come LHD models are significantly higher in price?

The CSL is one car I just can't get a grasp on for values. So many examples that appear to be in great condition just sit for a long time. One particular car I've been interested in has been for sale for nearly a year and the price has remained the same over that time.

Because the European market seems to appreciate the significance of the CSL even more than the UK market does and places a higher value on it.

If you do a quick search on this forum, you will find links of LHD cars that have come up for sale and the prices they are asking are often 10-20% higher than the equivalent RHD cars. I think it is purely a case of supply and demand. There is a higher demand for LHD cars (due to more countries driving on the right than the left), and due to the limited production run of these cars (only 823 LHD / 535 RHD, where 422 came to the UK, so a glut of CSLs by comparison to the rest of the world), which means globally there were 936 cars to fighter over - obviously significantly less now that the car is in excess of ten years old where several would have been lost in accidents), so due to this scarcity you get one of two scenarios - when cars do come up for sale, they are either priced extremely high because (especially in Europe), where the cars have a bit of a cult following or if they are in a country that doesn't really know what one is (there was one from the middle-east recently that seemed to be priced very low), a bargain can be had.

[MarcM]

Duck,

So the car that has been sitting, can you please tell me what they are asking for it... and miles.... thank you in advance

George

Hi, I agree with Mike regarding supply and demand for LHD.

Normally cars are depreciating so dealers have to discount to maintain margins and/or shift stock, with a car that's rare/ appreciating, the actual value should catch up with the list price at some point. (in theory)

Personally never paid too much attention to spec, think condition is more important. My view is that while you look for the 'perfect car', values may be on the up. Better to spend the money you saved buying the car on the car and be able to use it meantime ;)

Hope you find what you are after. Brilliant cars! Can't see me selling mine :smt055

[Duck360198]

Because the European market seems to appreciate the significance of the CSL even more than the UK market does and places a higher value on it.

If you do a quick search on this forum, you will find links of LHD cars that have come up for sale and the prices they are asking are often 10-20% higher than the equivalent RHD cars. I think it is purely a case of supply and demand. There is a higher demand for LHD cars (due to more countries driving on the right than the left), and due to the limited production run of these cars (only 823 LHD / 535 RHD, where 422 came to the UK, so a glut of CSLs by comparison to the rest of the world), which means globally there were 936 cars to fighter over - obviously significantly less now that the car is in excess of ten years old where several would have been lost in accidents), so due to this scarcity you get one of two scenarios - when cars do come up for sale, they are either priced extremely high because (especially in Europe), where the cars have a bit of a cult following or if they are in a country that doesn't really know what one is (there was one from the middle-east recently that seemed to be priced very low), a bargain can be had.

I get the supply and demand, I get the more LHD drive vs RHD countries, and I've done my research to see how much more expensive the LHD cars are. If this was a mass produced car, I would get the larger price differences. But the fact that the car is such a low production car, I just can't believe the massive difference. The RHD car I want is 27% less expensive than the LHD car I've found...and the RHD car has 12k less miles! It's just insane to me. I mean honestly, for 27% less is it worth it to have a car spec'd exactly the way I want, but with the steering wheel on the "wrong" side!? I also look at it as an investment too. If it's 27% now, what will it be in 10 years? Just a tough car to gauge.

[Duck360198]

Hi, I agree with Mike regarding supply and demand for LHD.

Normally cars are depreciating so dealers have to discount to maintain margins and/or shift stock, with a car that's rare/ appreciating, the actual value should catch up with the list price at some point. (in theory)

Personally never paid too much attention to spec, think condition is more important. My view is that while you look for the 'perfect car', values may be on the up. Better to spend the money you saved buying the car on the car and be able to use it meantime ;)

Hope you find what you are after. Brilliant cars! Can't see me selling mine :smt055

If I'm spending the premium cash these cars are commanding I want to have exactly what I'm looking for. Tough on a car like this since the production numbers are so low. But, I have the VIN numbers of the cars that meet my criteria...just need to find the owners. :thumbs:

[PeteGray]

I get the supply and demand, I get the more LHD drive vs RHD countries, and I've done my research to see how much more expensive the LHD cars are. If this was a mass produced car, I would get the larger price differences. But the fact that the car is such a low production car, I just can't believe the massive difference. The RHD car I want is 27% less expensive than the LHD car I've found...and the RHD car has 12k less miles! It's just insane to me. I mean honestly, for 27% less is it worth it to have a car spec'd exactly the way I want, but with the steering wheel on the "wrong" side!? I also look at it as an investment too. If it's 27% now, what will it be in 10 years? Just a tough car to gauge.

The majority of the 'collector car' market has slowed down over the last 12/18 months and I think the RHD CSL looks like good value again, when compared what's happening to other broadly similar cars (I know they aren't directly comparable).
The Mercedes 190 2.5 Evo, which has recently gone into the stratosphere, the Mercedes CLK63 AMG black Series, M3 E36 GT's, Evo's and so on - basically small family saloon cars which have been extensively and thoroughly updated with integrity and real passion to produce a drivers car.
There's quite a good selection of RHD CSL's on the market at the moment, so I'm guessing they aren't easily reaching the prices being asked. My view is that RHD prices will pick up again as people get used to the new reality of older cars being investments now (like it or not) and that the current prices is the new, firm base price for cars. Some cars might be in a bubble but, the CSL is not one of them.

In short, if you're considering buying a RHD car, go for the best you can afford now, as the £ is cheap and prices / exchange rates will not be like this forever.

[Duck360198]

I'm sorry OP, I hope I'm not hijacking your thread too much with this discussion!

I'm in a LHD country, and if a LHD option is available for a particular car I do feel the RHD counterpart will be valued quite a bit less than the LHD car. It's not like the older Nissan Skyline where they only came in RHD. I have to consider that.

So in the U.K., let's say someone gets a LHD CSL from Germany and decides to sell the car 6 months later in the U.K. Is that person going to take a major hit in trying to sell that car in the U.K. because people don't want LHD? Or does it still command that premium and people see LHD as being a positive? Is there enough cross-border transactions that they could still offer a higher price compared to the RHD counterpart? I'm not familiar with car sales and impacts on cross border transactions.

[Mike R]

I'm sorry OP, I hope I'm not hijacking your thread too much with this discussion!

I'm in a LHD country, and if a LHD option is available for a particular car I do feel the RHD counterpart will be valued quite a bit less than the LHD car. It's not like the older Nissan Skyline where they only came in RHD. I have to consider that.

So in the U.K., let's say someone gets a LHD CSL from Germany and decides to sell the car 6 months later in the U.K. Is that person going to take a major hit in trying to sell that car in the U.K. because people don't want LHD? Or does it still command that premium and people see LHD as being a positive? Is there enough cross-border transactions that they could still offer a higher price compared to the RHD counterpart? I'm not familiar with car sales and impacts on cross border transactions.

It is a fact that due to the "glut" of (RHD) cars in the the UK (we were the single biggest market for the car), that the other (LHD) cars from around the world command a higher price (in their LHD environment).

You would have to be a nuggart to buy a LHD car (at a premium) and then sell it at a loss in the UK, when just re-selling it back to the European market it came from, would see you either re-coup your money (at worse), or make a profit due to the values (slowly but surely) climbing during your ownership.

As you state, it would indeed be harder to sell a LHD one in the UK, as who would want to pay a premium for a LHD car, when a RHD car is better suited to our roads AND cheaper LOL? It's the same scenario you state about buying a RHD car for your LHD market.

While we are still in the EU and providing the car is purchased from another EU country, there are no additional import costs to add to the purchase. This is the whole point of the EU - no crossborder taxes what-so-ever.

I think deep down you know the answer, but due to the price disparity between the two versions, you are finding it a bitter pill to swallow.

However, it is a simple black and white choice that is down to you on whether you believe the price difference in the initial purchase is going to justify the lower residual when you decide to move the car on.

My personal opinion would be to take a deep breath, dig deep and buy the LHD. It will cost you more, but I think it will be a better bet when coming to sell the car later. You Yanks are very fickle, so you know in your heart that if there were two identical cars in the different drive formats, the more expensive LHD car will be easier to sell on, as everyone will know why you picked it over the LHD version in the first place and will try and hammer you on the price on that basis :blalalala:.

However, saying that, as more and more RHD cars are being exported (we recently lost one to New Zealand) and I have seen Swiss registered RHD one at the Nurburgring, the price differences will begin to narrow, but at the same time climb, so I would jump on that bandwagon before it's (financially) too late :blalalala:.

What you should have done is bought one a few years ago when the prices were at rock-bottom and stored it for the period until it exceeded the US age related import restriction - you would have been laughing all the way to the bank ;). Oh, the joys of hindsight :hahaha:.

[Duck360198]

I think deep down you know the answer, but due to the price disparity between the two versions, you are finding it a bitter pill to swallow.

However, it is a simple black and white choice that is down to you on whether you believe the price difference in the initial purchase is going to justify the lower residual when you decide to move the car on.

My personal opinion would be to take a deep breath, dig deep and buy the LHD. It will cost you more, but I think it will be a better bet when coming to sell the car later. You Yanks are very fickle, so you know in your heart that if there were two identical cars in the different drive formats, the more expensive LHD car will be easier to sell on, as everyone will know why you picked it over the LHD version in the first place and will try and hammer you on the price on that basis :blalalala:.

What you should have done is bought one a few years ago when the prices were at rock-bottom and stored it for the period until it exceeded the US age related import restriction - you would have been laughing all the way to the bank ;). Oh, the joys of hindsight :hahaha:.

You are 100% correct! I DO know the answer deep down. But dammit...27% difference in price?!?! I just want a CSL and how big of a difference in experience would I get with a RHD vs. a LHD car? Personally, I don't think the experience of being on the right side of the car would make that big of a difference. The other problem is that I have found the RHD car I want. I have yet to find the LHD version spec'd exactly the same to be for sale. When, if ever, will that perfectly spec'd LHD come up for sale? And what will the prices be at that time? I'm not sure I can justify spending the $100K+ for a LHD car when it isn't spec'd exactly the way I want. I say that now, but I'm sure if that bargain CSL shows up with low mileage, a couple added options, clean history...I may change my tune.

My mindset is that I would sell both of my current vehicles (1995 BMW M3 LTW and 2005 BMW M3) to own just a CSL. The CSL is the "Dream Car" for me and would never go to another home, unless financially a complete disaster occured. Speaking of which, what are everyone's thoughts on our M3....and particularly the LTW. Garbage? Awesome?

Ahhh don't get me started on hindsight. I have e-mails from several years ago on the RHD car I want. More than double the price now. *sigh*

[alexk]

The thing is that LHD cars have better weight distribution, they feature the lightweight CSL carpet (RHD cars do not have this) and have better exhaust manifold.
Plus, being a German car, the 'right' side of the steering wheel is the left.

I would sell my CSL only for ridiculous money.
But then, I would have no idea what to buy to replace it.

[Mike R]

You are 100% correct! I DO know the answer deep down. But dammit...27% difference in price?!?! I just want a CSL and how big of a difference in experience would I get with a RHD vs. a LHD car? Personally, I don't think the experience of being on the right side of the car would make that big of a difference. The other problem is that I have found the RHD car I want. I have yet to find the LHD version spec'd exactly the same to be for sale. When, if ever, will that perfectly spec'd LHD come up for sale? And what will the prices be at that time? I'm not sure I can justify spending the $100K+ for a LHD car when it isn't spec'd exactly the way I want. I say that now, but I'm sure if that bargain CSL shows up with low mileage, a couple added options, clean history...I may change my tune.

My mindset is that I would sell both of my current vehicles (1995 BMW M3 LTW and 2005 BMW M3) to own just a CSL. The CSL is the "Dream Car" for me and would never go to another home, unless financially a complete disaster occured. Speaking of which, what are everyone's thoughts on our M3....and particularly the LTW. Garbage? Awesome?

Ahhh don't get me started on hindsight. I have e-mails from several years ago on the RHD car I want. More than double the price now. *sigh*

Driving the cars is not the issue, you will soon adapt. I have no problem driving LHD cars when I go abroad. The problem is when you bring a car with the steering wheel on the wrong side for the country you are driving in.

You can't see to overtake on normal roads, and if you get stuck behind something, you will need a very brave, co-operative and understanding passenger :hahaha:.

I don't understand this "Unicorn" spec you are looking for (please clarify :blalalala: )? Just buy the best LHD car you can find in the colour you want. I think it would be a mistake to buy the RHD car on spec, as the whole point of the CSL is the driving experience that WILL be tarnished by driving it on the wrong side for the steering wheel, where the spec will have no influence on this.

[Duck360198]

All valid points. Regardless of how much the car will be driven, the experience will be hampered.

Regarding the unicorn, I think it just comes down to the raw nature of the car and taking it down to the bare minimums as intended from the factory. I wouldn't track the car and I know those parts like AC and radio and xenons could be taken out but I like the idea of having a factory build sheet of no (or minimal) options added. It's weird, I've always felt that way with any M3.

That being said, know any bare bones LHD cars around?! :beer:

Driving the cars is not the issue, you will soon adapt. I have no problem driving LHD cars when I go abroad. The problem is when you bring a car with the steering wheel on the wrong side for the country you are driving in.

You can't see to overtake on normal roads, and if you get stuck behind something, you will need a very brave, co-operative and understanding passenger :hahaha:.

I don't understand this "Unicorn" spec you are looking for (please clarify :blalalala: )? Just buy the best LHD car you can find in the colour you want. I think it would be a mistake to buy the RHD car on spec, as the whole point of the CSL is the driving experience that WILL be tarnished by driving it on the wrong side for the steering wheel, where the spec will have no influence on this.

[Mike R]

All valid points. Regardless of how much the car will be driven, the experience will be hampered.

Regarding the unicorn, I think it just comes down to the raw nature of the car and taking it down to the bare minimums as intended from the factory. I wouldn't track the car and I know those parts like AC and radio and xenons could be taken out but I like the idea of having a factory build sheet of no (or minimal) options added. It's weird, I've always felt that way with any M3.

That being said, know any bare bones LHD cars around?! :beer:

Given that there were allegedly only single digit numbers in this spec of the 422 cars brought in to the UK, I think you are going to have your work cut out (and we don't have a climate known to really need aircon). I personally think that aircon is must (especially if you are in a climate that sees above 25°C in the summer months or like we can, travel across the Channel to such climates). So given that the LHD cars are likely to have been sold in to countries with a climate much better than the UK, you can see why you would be struggling to find this alleged perfect spec. However, these options only add 20kg to your unicorn spec, and you can almost get rid of all of that by fitting a Supersprint full exhaust system (with the "Race" back-box).

You then get the added benefit of the Supersprint sound track as well as having the luxury of aircon and decent lights. You will not notice 20kg difference in driving on the road.