Sotheby's Investment Advice

[Neil M]

“THE RATIONAL LOTT£RY

You’ve got money burning a hole in your pocket. The bank is offering piffling interest.
RM Sotheby’s Europe Managing Director, Max Girardo suggests some investments:

1) BMW E9 3.0 CSL
2) Porsche 996 Turbo
3) Alfa Romeo Duetto Spider
4) Ferrari 365 GT4 2+2
5) Maserati Merak
6) BMW E46 M3 CSL
Collectable’ is code for ‘rare’ – the lower the numbers the better.
The E46 generation M3 was a great car and the CSL was the lightest and the best.
Only 1400 were made in 2004 so that’s a small pool of cars.
Find a low mileage example with FSH and it’s a sure-fire classic of the future.

7) Limited Edition Hypercars"

Extract taken from Top Gear Retro

The secret's out :hahaha:

[sailorbaz]

Where's the 'Share on Facebook' button, :-D

[PeteGray]

Good article and find. Amazingly I've got three of the cars on the list, well I will have later this week.

The CSL, Porsche and the Ferrari (mine is actually the 400, which is the 4 rear light - as opposed to 6 rear light - evolution of the 365).

Thanks Max!

[GregorFuk]

What about a high mileage car without a FSH? I do wonder.

[Rick H]

The article . . .

[Chappers]

What about a high mileage car without a FSH? I do wonder.

Who's got one of those?

I do have the same thoughts though about the cars still being used, whether the market will drag them up or they'll always be undesirable in the eyes of collectors.

[petery]

If looking at a Porsche 2.7RS would you worry about the mileage or the overal condition and how it's been cared for?

Same with the CSL eventually mileage becomes irrelevant and in my view cars that are used are normally much better than the ones that are sat around. (As I'm currently finding out!)

[GregorFuk]

Who's got one of those?

I do have the same thoughts though about the cars still being used, whether the market will drag them up or they'll always be undesirable in the eyes of collectors.

I have 85K on the clock, ~35K on the engine supplied by Quarry Motors and DIY fitted by myself. A patchy mid life service history to boot. But the car has been a rolling restoration project for me and is now looking fantastic. It's had a full Inspection 2 and will get new dampers all round this winter. So where does it sit now I wonder to myself?

[73CSL]

If looking at a Porsche 2.7RS would you worry about the mileage or the overal condition and how it's been cared for?

Same with the CSL eventually mileage becomes irrelevant and in my view cars that are used are normally much better than the ones that are sat around. (As I'm currently finding out!)

usually it seems there becomes a normal price bracket that cars fall into .. then there are the exceptions that fall either side either as ultra low mileage , original paint collectors pieces , or at the other end of the spectrum tatty non matching numbers cars etc ( this is with ref to aircooled porsches ) . I imagine CSL's will follow the same.

Out of interest, how many CSL's worldwide ?

[shimmy]

I have 85K on the clock, ~35K on the engine supplied by Quarry Motors and DIY fitted by myself. A patchy mid life service history to boot. But the car has been a rolling restoration project for me and is now looking fantastic. It's had a full Inspection 2 and will get new dampers all round this winter. So where does it sit now I wonder to myself?

about £5k imho

makes mine seem like a garage queen!

[GregorFuk]

usually it seems there becomes a normal price bracket that cars fall into .. then there are the exceptions that fall either side either as ultra low mileage , original paint collectors pieces , or at the other end of the spectrum tatty non matching numbers cars etc ( this is with ref to aircooled porsches ) . I imagine CSL's will follow the same.

Out of interest, how many CSL's worldwide ?

1400 CSLs, that's what the magazine says. How many left though?

I agree but I also think that there are going to be a lot of uneducated air cooled Porsche owners howling with pain when there 'investment Porsche' starts rotting from the inside out. "But they told me it was a Good'un!!!!!"

[73CSL]

for interest then, approx 1500 1973 carrera RS's were built

mixture of tourings & lightweights

[Neil M]

UK cars here: https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/bmw_m3_csl

[Chappers]

Interesting. Have 22 been exported this year?

[Yanto]

Or 6 people have caught the ghey yoy :gayfight:

[digi]

Whats with the 996 Turbo as a collectible? Loads in my neck of woods going for next to nothing.

[MisterCorn]

Whats with the 996 Turbo as a collectible? Loads in my neck of woods going for next to nothing.

Get one bought then. Prices have been going up steadily for the last 18 months. I bought my 2004 manual with x50 and aerokit on 21k miles for £36k 4.5 years ago. If you could find one of the same spec now it would be closer to £50k. Shame I have ruined mine by giving it an extra 200hp and putting 10k miles on it :)

MC

[erdingtonjohn]

Was gonna post to get an idea of value, as I was looking at parting with my SG. 74k on clock, full history and just had the engine gone through by Simpsons as it seems a shame to have it sat there in my workshop in its' carcoon.

What to do?

Need a magic ball. :banghead:

[NZ_M3]

The article . . .

Can you put up a higher resolution of this article please?

[digi]

Get one bought then. Prices have been going up steadily for the last 18 months. I bought my 2004 manual with x50 and aerokit on 21k miles for £36k 4.5 years ago. If you could find one of the same spec now it would be closer to £50k. Shame I have ruined mine by giving it an extra 200hp and putting 10k miles on it :)

MC

they come fully loaded in HK and they are more or less all the same here. Not interested in it considering I have Godzilla and was going to get a 991 GT3 until it went up in flames and I passed along my quota. Now the RS is out so contemplating whether to buy 2 cars (LP560+458 Italia) or a new 991 GT3 RS (prices would be about the same).

I have a few friends with the 996 turbo and all are selling. Strange market I guess from place to place. Bit like UK sells the CSL on the cheap and Germany are selling them for a large premium.

But I still cannot figure out why they demand large premiums over say a 997 Turbo. I understand why a 964 Turbo is collectible but what's the key aspect for the 996. Sorry, I didn't really follow this particular generation.

[Neil M]

Bit like UK sells the CSL on the cheap and Germany are selling them for a large premium.

That's the problem with RHD's, such a limited market as opposed to LHD's.
The size of the European market is enormous compared to ours, taking into consideration the emerging Eastern European countries, and of course China all of which are LHD's. ;)

[73CSL]

they come fully loaded in HK and they are more or less all the same here. Not interested in it considering I have Godzilla and was going to get a 991 GT3 until it went up in flames and I passed along my quota. Now the RS is out so contemplating whether to buy 2 cars (LP560+458 Italia) or a new 991 GT3 RS (prices would be about the same).

I have a few friends with the 996 turbo and all are selling. Strange market I guess from place to place. Bit like UK sells the CSL on the cheap and Germany are selling them for a large premium.

But I still cannot figure out why they demand large premiums over say a 997 Turbo. I understand why a 964 Turbo is collectible but what's the key aspect for the 996. Sorry, I didn't really follow this particular generation.

996 turbo is reportedly a nicer car to drive from an enthusiasts point of view, more feedback through the steering , more alive feel to it etc. I know at least one respected Porsche trader who has a lot of both and he prefers the 996 turbo over the 997 turbo

[digi]

That's the problem with RHD's, such a limited market as opposed to LHD's.
The size of the European market is enormous compared to ours, taking into consideration the emerging Eastern European countries, and of course China all of which are LHD's. ;)

In China they are not as car savvy as say the UK/EU when it comes to classics. Although in time I'm sure they will start paying silly prices for collectible vehicles.

Still 500 RHD isn't a great deal and considering what some of you have highlighted there isn't even that number running around.

So the 996 Turbo is a marginal classic, not like the CSL that is spades away from its modern brothers. :smokin:

[HFLagos]

Heard today that my old CSL which went to Hexagon now resides in Hong Kong. Reinforces to some extent other stories I have heard of our cars not necessarily staying in the UK.

[Neil M]

Definitely going somewhere? https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/bmw_m3_csl

[Matt21]

Heard today that my old CSL which went to Hexagon now resides in Hong Kong. Reinforces to some extent other stories I have heard of our cars not necessarily staying in the UK.

What was the reg? We bought one from hexagon 2 years ago.

[HFLagos]

What was the reg? We bought one from hexagon 2 years ago.

That wouldn't be mine, was only sold by Hexagon last summer

[khooni]

what 997 is much better car than 996.

in every iteration.

991 Gt3 RS rocks but it'll be too precious to track (for me) so i'd get a LP560-2 or a superleggera since these appear so much more value than Ferraris which dun seem to lose much value either.

other than that, a vantage V12s works for me as well.

but my 997.2 Gt3 RS is the best :thumbs:

[digi]

Heard today that my old CSL which went to Hexagon now resides in Hong Kong. Reinforces to some extent other stories I have heard of our cars not necessarily staying in the UK.

would not be surprised considering there are ZERO forsale here and are now all in strong hands.

If my recollection is correct there are 10 in HK, with 6 official BMW HK imports with 4 gray imports, but my numbers for the gray imports may be incorrect as there maybe a few more. Neil know better than me :thumbs::hahaha:

[digi]

I check the german listings once in awhile and ......:birdman:

http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=212311764&damageUnrepaired=ALSO_DAMAGE_UNREPAIRED&sortOption.sortOrder=ASCENDING&sortOption.sortBy=searchNetGrossPrice&isSearchRequest=true&scopeId=C&minFirstRegistrationDate=2003-01-01&makeModelVariant1.makeId=3500&makeModelVariant1.modelId=45&makeModelVariant1.modelDescription=CSL&pageNumber=1

159,000 EUR :119:

ok we adjust for the decline in the EUR, but.....

[digi]

cost more than a frigging 458 Italia in Germany.

http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=209970790&sortOption.sortOrder=ASCENDING&adLimitation=&climatisation=&sortOption.sortBy=searchNetGrossPrice&zipcodeRadius=&zipcode=&scopeId=C&isSearchRequest=true&makeModelVariant1.makeId=8600&makeModelVariant1.modelId=2&pageNumber=2

[Bunty]

I check the german listings once in awhile and ......:birdman:

http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=212311764&damageUnrepaired=ALSO_DAMAGE_UNREPAIRED&sortOption.sortOrder=ASCENDING&sortOption.sortBy=searchNetGrossPrice&isSearchRequest=true&scopeId=C&minFirstRegistrationDate=2003-01-01&makeModelVariant1.makeId=3500&makeModelVariant1.modelId=45&makeModelVariant1.modelDescription=CSL&pageNumber=1

159,000 EUR :119:

ok we adjust for the decline in the EUR, but.....

Lets not get carried away gents....these are asking prices. I think most smart people know we are now coming to the end of a very over heated classic car market that could go pop.

Investors are now trying to sell at the top of the market and make a good return. I think it's a risky time to be investing in classic cars at the moment. Long term though, the CSL will undoubtedly rise in value but I think we will see a correction downwards before that happens.

[Rick H]

Saddening to see in some ways. Can you still hoon and drift a £100k car?

Different if your net worth is in the millions but for mere mortals such as myself, the car is going to price itself out of the fun times sooner rather than later and my "use it up, wear it out" mantra will seem more ridiculous.

Looks like Hexagon don't have any in stock which is unusual. The cars I assume are finding more permanent homes these days.

[Chappers]

Saddening to see in some ways. Can you still hoon and drift a £100k car?

Different if your net worth is in the millions but for mere mortals such as myself, the car is going to price itself out of the fun times sooner rather than later and my "use it up, wear it out" mantra will seem more ridiculous.

Looks like Hexagon don't have any in stock which is unusual. The cars I assume are finding more permanent homes these days.

Different leagues but perhaps relevant in a "net worth vs vehicle worth" kind of way. Rowan Atkinson's reasons for selling his Mclaren F1 were exactly this, he'd planned to keep the car and keep using it and keep driving it forever but as it approached (and passed) £10,000,000 in value it became harder and harder for him to justify taking it out on the road.

Our cars will never be worth quite that, but the analogy I like to use is that taking a Mclaren out onto the road amongst normal cars is like taking a Picasso painting into a preschool class full of children doing finger painting. It's just not worth the risk.

[Rick H]

Different leagues but perhaps relevant in a "net worth vs vehicle worth" kind of way. Rowan Atkinson's reasons for selling his Mclaren F1 were exactly this, he'd planned to keep the car and keep using it and keep driving it forever but as it approached (and passed) £10,000,000 in value it became harder and harder for him to justify taking it out on the road.

Our cars will never be worth quite that, but the analogy I like to use is that taking a Mclaren out onto the road amongst normal cars is like taking a Picasso painting into a preschool class full of children doing finger painting. It's just not worth the risk.

As soon as mine reaches £100k, I'm chopping it in for a BAC Mono :thumbs: Won't hold my breath though hahahaha.

[Rick H]

Has anyone posted this on Cutters? Jon may be interested!

[khooni]

mine will never be worth anything so I track it for all it's worth.

I have a standard Gt3 RS and I don't track that as I worry about incidents while on track. It's a bloody shame and as a consequence i love my CSL more. It's so bad I've put my RS up for sale and am thinking about getting a lotus elise Cup. That should be a ball of fun, shame I can't get paddles.


I think some of us may acvtually go buy std m3 to gut so we can track the cars properly

[E46CSL]

mine will never be worth anything so I track it for all it's worth.

I have a standard Gt3 RS and I don't track that as I worry about incidents while on track. It's a bloody shame and as a consequence i love my CSL more. It's so bad I've put my RS up for sale and am thinking about getting a lotus elise Cup. That should be a ball of fun, shame I can't get paddles.


I think some of us may acvtually go buy std m3 to gut so we can track the cars properly



Prices go up, use/enjoyment goes down. :(

& as prices go up, cost to maintain goes up (need to keep the service record intact, insure at higher values, storage) -real cash out whilst any potential value increase is on paper only.

[digi]

Lets not get carried away gents....these are asking prices. I think most smart people know we are now coming to the end of a very over heated classic car market that could go pop.

Investors are now trying to sell at the top of the market and make a good return. I think it's a risky time to be investing in classic cars at the moment. Long term though, the CSL will undoubtedly rise in value but I think we will see a correction downwards before that happens.

Not that I will sell. But 458 is also asking. :smokin:

[digi]

Lets not get carried away gents....these are asking prices. I think most smart people know we are now coming to the end of a very over heated classic car market that could go pop.

Investors are now trying to sell at the top of the market and make a good return. I think it's a risky time to be investing in classic cars at the moment. Long term though, the CSL will undoubtedly rise in value but I think we will see a correction downwards before that happens.

considering fiat ccy is being debased on a daily basis (money printing - just ask prince draghi), this is but a normal reaction for valuable vehicles.

Yes, I think a asset correction will occur but again (like 08 correction), they will recover for the simple reason that holding paper assets becomes unsavory. So.......HOLD YOUR VEHICLES GENTLEMAN! :hahaha:

ZERO/negative return on fiat ccy, choice isn't hard.

Getting a track slag from a regular M3 is a prudent choice.

[E46CSL]

considering fiat ccy is being debased on a daily basis (money printing - just ask prince draghi), this is but a normal reaction for valuable vehicles.

Yes, I think a asset correction will occur but again (like 08 correction), they will recover for the simple reason that holding paper assets becomes unsavory. .

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/82737cca-39f2-11e5-bbd1-b37bc06f590c.html?ftcamp=crm/email/_2015___08___20150806__/emailalerts/Keyword_alert/product,crm/email/_2015___08___20150806__/emailalerts/Keyword_alert/product

Or Google

GMO’s Grantham warns markets ‘ripe for major decline’ in 2016

[digi]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/82737cca-39f2-11e5-bbd1-b37bc06f590c.html?ftcamp=crm/email/_2015___08___20150806__/emailalerts/Keyword_alert/product,crm/email/_2015___08___20150806__/emailalerts/Keyword_alert/product

Or Google

GMO’s Grantham warns markets ‘ripe for major decline’ in 2016

hahahaa - FT.....love it.

I worked at GS and various wall st. firms. I think my views would exceed this clown. Not that I do not agree. Just people think 08 crisis is separate to what we are heading into and talk as though they are detached. When it hits, people will feel the pain in magnitudes greater than 08 as basically the West has run out of BULLETS. Printing won't work like before.

Just like US keeps saying it will raise rates, its only for the IDIOTS! When you have trillions in interest rate derivatives, as well as a balance sheet full of toxic junk, rates aren't going anywhere.

[E46CSL]

hahahaa - FT.....love it.

I worked at GS and various wall st. firms. I think my views would exceed this clown.

So what do you counsel?

[khooni]

now now....

we have a market.. i think the 25 bps rise is inevitable.

but it doesn't really mean anything.

[digi]

So what do you counsel?

Well, what do you know about fiat ccy vs money? What do you see in the economic/financial world right now? (Zero interest rates to -neg interest rates, money printing etc.), personal staying power/net worth.

You see, it very much depends on what you know.

I never advise anyone except my clients and my own portfolio.

If you can answer some of those questions in a honest manner (to yourself) it will be a first step to determine your own direction.

This is not advise, but NEVER BUY A CAR ON LOAN OR LEASE unless you own a company so you can get the tax benefits. More than 90% of people will find this hard.

[digi]

now now....

we have a market.. i think the 25 bps rise is inevitable.

but it doesn't really mean anything.

you missed the RIGGED part with the e-minis :smokin: :hahaha:

[nw942]

now now....

we have a market.. i think the 25 bps rise is inevitable.

but it doesn't really mean anything.

Low interest rates indicate to me that the banks still have a lot of bad debt despite QE.

The interesting question is whether a sustained slowdown and any possible future shocks e.g. China will start to affect the comfortable-but-not-rich people who are currently able to borrow freely/cheaply ATM to invest in various assets.