csl vs gts. Spa track day

[octainejunkee]

The owner of the GTS was a top guy and said he had owned the csl gtr built by simpsons in the past.

I improved my times loads towards the end of the day but figured this would be of most interest to you guys..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSy_E33wWaQ&feature=youtu.be

Cheers Jamie

[shimmy]

The owner of the GTS was a top guy and said he had owned the csl gtr built by simpsons in the past.

I improved my times loads towards the end of the day but figured this would be of most interest to you guys..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSy_E33wWaQ&feature=youtu.be



Cheers Jamie


TonyR

[cslsuperfan]

The owner of the GTS was a top guy and said he had owned the csl gtr built by simpsons in the past.

I improved my times loads towards the end of the day but figured this would be of most interest to you guys..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSy_E33wWaQ&feature=youtu.be

Cheers Jamie

I seem to recall Gorilla was the proud owner of the Simpson CSL...

[TonyR]

I built two csls, one of which was the red gtr race car on Simpsons website and the other was the black road car version that Gorilla bought from me.

The video is little deceptive a I'd just got on the track with cold tyres and an instructor. We were trying out different things so trying to concentrate on what he was saying while a csl was up my arse was a bit tricky! I knew the csl owner wanted to see what the gts was like from a chat just before I went out with the instructor hence why I waited a bit then let him past.

The deep line I pif paf was the instructors idea as the car wasn't very happy there with a normal line, nor in rivage or the entry to stavelot. We found the next day it was much happier with traction fully off and some camber and tire pressure adjustments, as well as a little less rear wing.

Was seeing 2:57 day two with two up and lots of traffic. 2:55 is easily done but I think there is a 2:50 in the car as it stands and less with a couple of tweaks.

Both cars have kw suspension and brakes and similar power to weights. The gts has a torque advantage and in some corners a grip one.

My big issue is that driving is not the same since I had two eye operations and I can't easily focus around corners or pick braking points with any accuracy. I'm having to adapt everything and it's taken most of the last two years to get any confidence or pace back, and a far cry from when I used to race 10'yrs ago.

Please bear that in mind as some of the comments on the video presumably from the passenger were a bit unkind.

I thought the csl was very well driven

[octainejunkee]

Hi mate no disrespect intended- passenger was a little excited and on a high from us keeping up with you hence the comments :clown:

As we had just spoke, i knew you were having some instruction tuition and so wanted to leave you space but couldnt resist keeping up to see how it went.-

I really enjoyed the whole day and managed some much better times without a passenger and a car full of two peoples luggage etc.

Last time i was at Spa, i was in my 460/530 bhp/lbft 1M and had opposite lock on up Eau Rouge, which has left me treating it with alot more respect, seem to be loosing alot of time there but i'm gradually building up to a fast line through there again

My pal was filming at the bus stop chicane on the red flag lap and said alot of spectators gave us a cheer when my mates rwd r35gtr, me and your gts came through there sideways...:beer:

Look forward to seeing you at another event in the future ?
cheers Jamie

[TonyR]

Hi mate no disrespect intended- passenger was a little excited and on a high from us keeping up with you hence the comments :clown:

As we had just spoke, i knew you were having some instruction tuition and so wanted to leave you space but couldnt resist keeping up to see how it went.-

I really enjoyed the whole day and managed some much better times without a passenger and a car full of two peoples luggage etc.

Last time i was at Spa, i was in my 460/530 bhp/lbft 1M and had opposite lock on up Eau Rouge, which has left me treating it with alot more respect, seem to be loosing alot of time there but i'm gradually building up to a fast line through there again

My pal was filming at the bus stop chicane on the red flag lap and said alot of spectators gave us a cheer when my mates rwd r35gtr, me and your gts came through there sideways...:beer:

Look forward to seeing you at another event in the future ?
cheers Jamie

No worries :) Think the car will be quicker next time though with exhaust, map, proper geo (it hasn't had one at all) and better tyres (PZero Trofeo I hope).

If I hadn't changed the tyres to the Dunlops, I would have been ALOT slower with the stock Pirelli Corsas. Thing is, your car is a good deal quicker than a stock CSL, so if you compared like for like, the GTS vs CSL out the box, the GTS would be much quicker. Do what you did to yours, and the gap narrows. But, if you added a cage and extinguisher, like the GTS has, then you would fall behind again.

I think ultimately the GTS and E92 is faster than the E46 from its potential, but we are talking a few seconds here - not a massive amount, and one that is easily removed with a couple of mistakes and/or traffic.

What events you planning? I'm definitely at Silverstone with Circuit Days (November 6th) but may do something else in September. Car was a little tired when I got back ;)

I used to track my CSL back in '04, with a cage, 265 cups all round, Intrax, APs, seats, harnesses etc - and it was a similar experience and lap time to the GTS. That car eventually became Gorilla's GTR

[shimmy]

Tony

Id be interested to know why Colin was telling you to take the long route around, exact opposite to the fastest CSL line and I cant beloeve GTS line should be much different.

Id say GTS as it stands should do 2:45 with a dry track, fair wind and strong pair of specs!

Good to see you both enjoying Spa, Im jealous.

[TonyR]

Tony

Id be interested to know why Colin was telling you to take the long route around, exact opposite to the fastest CSL line and I cant beloeve GTS line should be much different.

Id say GTS as it stands should do 2:45 with a dry track, fair wind and strong pair of specs!

Good to see you both enjoying Spa, Im jealous.

I don't think 2:45 as it stands is possible, but will be with a few tweaks.

The problem we had on day one was really one of understeer, so Colin was suggesting go deeper and come out straighter earlier. It really made no difference until day 2 when I added more camber on the right. He was also telling me to go 10 to 20% slower on all the corners to try to get the line right, so as I said the video is deceptive. I had a Smarty Cam HD in mine but actually forgot to turn it on the entire two days (having too much fun!)

I couldn't add enough camber at all - the tyres are worn on the outside due to that (less than 2 degrees, needs to be 2.5 at least). Issue is that the top of the tyre is hitting the strut, so needs bottom adjustment and/or a larger spacer (5mm as stock on there).

The car is at factory settings so is a complete compromise. I'm going to take it to Chris at Centre of Gravity to setup properly, once the new BBS FI rims arrive (18s :) )

As I said 2:50 was possible today (not from me, 2:55 would have been my best) and with a few minor tweaks, under that - maybe even 2:45 as you suggest.

The other issue is the brakes - I could not put the ducting that the car needs on as the back plates I bought didn't fit, so again was pulling back about 20% on the brakes to avoid the inevitable overheat. I'll pop down to Simpsons to sort all that out in the next week or two :) We also had a pad difference front to rear (new Endless on front, old Ferodo on rear) which upset the trail brake balance and made the car a bit nose heavy on braking.

Still, despite all that - a great car out of the box, with lots of potential for tweakage in a safe, reliable package. I truly love it.

I should add Colin's tuition definitely helped. Hard to be sure but the laps on the video are at least 10s slower than what the car and me ended up doing.

Really the biggest issue is my eyes - I just don't have very good vision any more, and it can't be corrected yet (and they don't know why).

I'm not dangerous or anything, but I struggle with detail and depth perception as a result. Some of the corners are a bit guesswork and more feel than sight! Trust me, it is brilliant now compared to 18 months ago. My brain is starting to compensate for the disability. Just wish they would hurry up and sort it properly - wished I'd stuck with glasses!

[shane@mbtech]

I'd hope the gts could beat the CSL. Csl can crack sub 2.50 easily.

I can't help thinking that for the price of the GTS it should just work out the box. A GT3 pork would? Genuine question and not criticism.

[TonyR]

I'd hope the gts could beat the CSL. Csl can crack sub 2.50 easily.

I can't help thinking that for the price of the GTS it should just work out the box. A GT3 pork would? Genuine question and not criticism.

A GT3 doesn't - my friend had his 997 Gen II and it destroyed its brakes, and even with replacement Alcons was still crap. He had no end of woes, and in comparison the car was really soft.

The GTS is a good road/track compromise out the box, presumably to make it work at the Ring reasonably. If you intend to use it track only, then it doesn't take much to get it a lot faster.

What is good is I beat the hell out of the car over the two days and went home with no issues. Prior to that the car did 4k miles, 4 heavy trackdays and used 1 set of discs, 2 sets of pads and 1 set of tyres. Not bad going really.

Key thing is every mile is really enjoyable, as it was in my CSL. It isn't a race, and tbh one of the quickest things out there was a MkII golf!!

I was having fun every minute, and that's all that really counts. It is a mega car and lovely to own and drive, as was the CSL.

If you think a CSL was approx £60k, to get to the spec of a GTS you would add cage, proper seats, harnesses, exhaust, brakes, aero, engine work and suspension. Adding components of the same quality as those in the GTS and you are looking at around £25k done - makes it £85k. GTS was £115k, but they are 10 years apart so you can't make a direct comparison. The GTS is still more expensive, but the value of the mods is preserved (you get your money back) which you don't on a modded CSL.

I paid £89k for mine with 1900 miles - basically a new car. It is unlikely to go down much, if at all, with only 8 in the UK. Not quite so silly when you look at it that way, even if the performance was identical.

It's like the GTR tuned vs Nismo debate. Yes, you could build a faster E92 track car for less money, of course you can. So what.

It's nice to get something out the box that is pretty good. Shame BMW didn't do more, but then it leaves me with room to play :)

[billyboysm3]

Great Video!!!

Love the driver/passenger banter.

Never had the pleasure of driving Spa but would love to do it next year.

In the last 13 months Ive toyed with selling the CSL nearly every week.

Since watching this video and going in Adem's/Yanto's last weekend it really has to stay.

[TonyR]

CSL is an epic car and wish I still owned one, albeit a standard one for road use.

Nothing beats that induction noise!

[shane@mbtech]

A GT3 doesn't - my friend had his 997 Gen II and it destroyed its brakes, and even with replacement Alcons was still crap. He had no end of woes, and in comparison the car was really soft.

The GTS is a good road/track compromise out the box, presumably to make it work at the Ring reasonably. If you intend to use it track only, then it doesn't take much to get it a lot faster.

What is good is I beat the hell out of the car over the two days and went home with no issues. Prior to that the car did 4k miles, 4 heavy trackdays and used 1 set of discs, 2 sets of pads and 1 set of tyres. Not bad going really.

Key thing is every mile is really enjoyable, as it was in my CSL. It isn't a race, and tbh one of the quickest things out there was a MkII golf!!

I was having fun every minute, and that's all that really counts. It is a mega car and lovely to own and drive, as was the CSL.

If you think a CSL was approx £60k, to get to the spec of a GTS you would add cage, proper seats, harnesses, exhaust, brakes, aero, engine work and suspension. Adding components of the same quality as those in the GTS and you are looking at around £25k done - makes it £85k. GTS was £115k, but they are 10 years apart so you can't make a direct comparison. The GTS is still more expensive, but the value of the mods is preserved (you get your money back) which you don't on a modded CSL.

I paid £89k for mine with 1900 miles - basically a new car. It is unlikely to go down much, if at all, with only 8 in the UK. Not quite so silly when you look at it that way, even if the performance was identical.

It's like the GTR tuned vs Nismo debate. Yes, you could build a faster E92 track car for less money, of course you can. So what.

It's nice to get something out the box that is pretty good. Shame BMW didn't do more, but then it leaves me with room to play :)


I wasn't looking to get into the price vs csl debate Tony, its just you had your racing book excuse book out in your first post;), so I was wondering why for the price of the GTS was it as bad as you were making out in the post. Judging by your driving and times on that vid I can now see why you were soo much faster in your GTR:blalalala:

[octainejunkee]

I got my laps down to 2.50's with two people plus luggage etc by the end of the day,
so i'm pretty happy with the car tbh-
a super charger would ruin the noise and power delivery
but a little more power would make it so much better on the straights..

I'll be going to the ring soon- would be up for silverstone on the 6th but i'll be in vegas at the Sema show then driving up to texas for the f1..:blalalala:

I think you did well to snap the gts up for that price as they are hard to find for less than 100k now.- in all honesty i'd probably be a little more cautious if i was driving a car worth so much around spa.

As for the drive home- the car was behaving faultlessly as were my mates supercharged m3 and the 650bhp gtr- so much so that the Belguim Police decided to close part of the e40 and use 8 police cars to escort us to a police station to discuss our "fast and furious" racing lol- 1 thousand Euros and 4hrs later we left to go on our way..
We always thought the Belguim PoPo were cool but apparantly not..

Ill try and get down to the ring this year and will fit in a few brandshatch eve sessions as and when..

Would be good to catch up at another event if you do any others?

cheers Jamie




No worries :) Think the car will be quicker next time though with exhaust, map, proper geo (it hasn't had one at all) and better tyres (PZero Trofeo I hope).

If I hadn't changed the tyres to the Dunlops, I would have been ALOT slower with the stock Pirelli Corsas. Thing is, your car is a good deal quicker than a stock CSL, so if you compared like for like, the GTS vs CSL out the box, the GTS would be much quicker. Do what you did to yours, and the gap narrows. But, if you added a cage and extinguisher, like the GTS has, then you would fall behind again.

I think ultimately the GTS and E92 is faster than the E46 from its potential, but we are talking a few seconds here - not a massive amount, and one that is easily removed with a couple of mistakes and/or traffic.

What events you planning? I'm definitely at Silverstone with Circuit Days (November 6th) but may do something else in September. Car was a little tired when I got back ;)

I used to track my CSL back in '04, with a cage, 265 cups all round, Intrax, APs, seats, harnesses etc - and it was a similar experience and lap time to the GTS. That car eventually became Gorilla's GTR

[TonyR]

I wasn't looking to get into the price vs csl debate Tony, its just you had your racing book excuse book out in your first post;), so I was wondering why for the price of the GTS was it as bad as you were making out in the post. Judging by your driving and times on that vid I can now see why you were soo much faster in your GTR:blalalala:

Here we go...

It wasn't excuses, they are facts. I don't need to explain or prove anything to you and I couldn't care less if you think the CSL is the best things since time began or the GTS is an overpriced Jaffa cake. They are quite different and I'd happily own both.

GTS is for me, the most enjoyable road car I've ever bought to date for circuit use. I am the first to admit I struggle to drive quickly since my eye problems and multiple operations, which is why I sought help from CATDT to get my confidence back, and I am very grateful to Colin as when I saw him first 18 months ago I had become scared to even drive on a normal road.

But go ahead, take the piss. Enjoy.

[TonyR]

Jamie,

As I said, you were driving very well. I wouldn't charge it - if you really want more, go down the cams and different final drive route instead.

I had dinner with my mate who lives in Spa on the Tuesday night (Greg from the MLR who organises their SPA days), and he warned us not to go over 150kph or it was bye-bye car! The Police are much more serious now, and the French are worse. Traffic was pretty average when we went back following morning, so could barely get above 80mph anyway!

Still, thoroughly enjoyed it. There are a few Silverstone days in October. Not sure I'll have time to sort the car out before then, bit of a busy time.

I'll put my SmartyCam on next time so we can do it both ways (ooh err).

If I'm still slower than you, I'll stick someone who can peddle properly in :smt038:smt038:smt038

[Graham]

My pal was filming at the bus stop chicane on the red flag lap and said alot of spectators gave us a cheer when my mates rwd r35gtr, me and your gts came through there sideways...:beer:

I need to see this video :thumbs:

Good lap. My mates were there in a white polo, red 106 & red vxr. I couldn't make it due to no time off from work :-(

[TonyR]

I need to see this video :thumbs:

Good lap. My mates were there in a white polo, red 106 & red vxr. I couldn't make it due to no time off from work :-(

Me too!

Saw the red VXR, but never saw a polo or 106!

[3wheels3]

Hi Tony :thumbs:, Wow it's a long time ago now since you were helping me get my csl raspberry friendly with harness/buckets! One thing, when getting out after session over egg any disability to pi$$ of other drivers lolz

Lap times, lap times, lap times...there's more things in life than that! It's about enjoying the whole day, havin' a good laugh with trackday pals, enjoying the car, places like Spa etc etc

It's certainly a lot easier throwing ol' snotters round track though :hahaha:

Love the csl, love the gts, love Spa...great vid :smt055

[GregorJP]

As for the drive home- the car was behaving faultlessly as were my mates supercharged m3 and the 650bhp gtr- so much so that the Belguim Police decided to close part of the e40 and use 8 police cars to escort us to a police station to discuss our "fast and furious" racing lol- 1 thousand Euros and 4hrs later we left to go on our way..
We always thought the Belguim PoPo were cool but apparantly not..


I like this story. Reminds me of a trip back from the Ring when we got flashed by an unmarked Peugeot on the e40 after we had closed on him at a not inconsiderable speed. The car contained the angriest Belgian policeman I have ever seen, waving his warrant card and gesturing that we should pull over. He kept trying to block us going past him, but we took the view (given that he was most likely off duty) that he was going to struggle to call for back up. So we nipped past and nailed it.

My mate got fined well over €1k in his Lambo for similar F&F behaviour. :bigcry:

[TonyR]

Hi Tony :thumbs:, Wow it's a long time ago now since you were helping me get my csl raspberry friendly with harness/buckets! One thing, when getting out after session over egg any disability to pi$$ of other drivers lolz

Lap times, lap times, lap times...there's more things in life than that! It's about enjoying the whole day, havin' a good laugh with trackday pals, enjoying the car, places like Spa etc etc

It's certainly a lot easier throwing ol' snotters round track though :hahaha:

Love the csl, love the gts, love Spa...great vid :smt055

That's it right there. Had a great time with some friends, made a few new ones. Loads of people wanted to talk about the GTS and go out in it (even with my blind slow pace) and much Leffe was drunk and steak eaten (had a fookin 1Kg steak on Tuesday night!)

Spa itself has changed in the 8 years or so since I was last there with less gravel, more runoff etc. Loved the eating place on top of the building there :)

[shimmy]

Lap times, lap times, lap times...there's more things in life than that! It's about enjoying the whole day, havin' a good laugh with trackday pals, enjoying the car, places like Spa etc etc



now you tell me :hahaha:

[shane@mbtech]

Here we go...

It wasn't excuses, they are facts. I don't need to explain or prove anything to you and I couldn't care less if you think the CSL is the best things since time began or the GTS is an overpriced Jaffa cake. They are quite different and I'd happily own both.

GTS is for me, the most enjoyable road car I've ever bought to date for circuit use. I am the first to admit I struggle to drive quickly since my eye problems and multiple operations, which is why I sought help from CATDT to get my confidence back, and I am very grateful to Colin as when I saw him first 18 months ago I had become scared to even drive on a normal road.

But go ahead, take the piss. Enjoy.


Tony I couldnt resist bud. I just knew you would bite. ;)
Unclench :blalalala:

10642

[3wheels3]

now you tell me :hahaha:

Oh...and the Salsa bar!

[shimmy]

Oh...and the Salsa bar!

so just to be clear

"mates fun" - Latino dancing - laptimes........in that order.

[shimmy]

Tony I couldnt resist bud. I just knew you would bite. ;)
Unclench :blalalala:

10642



fookin not hard when hes drving around the outside of the track :beer::thumbs::smt055

[3wheels3]

so just to be clear

"mates fun" - Latino dancing - laptimes........in that order.

Head. Nail. Missed it all this year. Next year pal ;)

[alexk]

Tony

Lawsy is a top guy but he always attempts to make you bite.
Until you understand this you get pissed etc.

It took me years to understand this, plus the fact that he cant drive fast, only post fast:blalalala:

[Yanto]

Tony

Lawsy is a top guy but he always attempts to make you bite.
Until you understand this you get pissed etc.

It took me years to understand this, plus the fact that he cant drive fast, only post fast:blalalala:

At least he's fast at one of them :smokin:

[Yanto]

Great Video!!!

Love the driver/passenger banter.

Never had the pleasure of driving Spa but would love to do it next year.

In the last 13 months Ive toyed with selling the CSL nearly every week.

Since watching this video and going in Adem's/Yanto's last weekend it really has to stay.

Any time you're swaying......PICK UP THE BAT PHONE :beer:

[shane@mbtech]

fookin not hard when hes drving around the outside of the track :beer::thumbs::smt055

He can't see the track, but he types really well.

Tony typing on his keyboard. :hahaha:

10643

I shouldn't but I can't help it.

[alexk]

LOL !!!

[TonyR]

You've found my secret. I had to combine this with running to keep my 80+ wpm type speed. Nice side effect is I can run marathons now.

Bit of a PITA answering emails in the rain though.

[glendog74]

Any time you're swaying......PICK UP THE BAT PHONE :beer:
Why would you want a CSL without an engine, lol! :bigcry:

[billyboysm3]

Why would you want a CSL without an engine, lol! :bigcry:

My engines in the BMW Munich Museum, I just don't know how Ill leave the building with it.

[billyboysm3]

You may laugh, I thought, borrow BMW Elms Parts Van, pick up Gareth and Adem, head to ring, do a couple of transit van laps, head to Munich in our BMW mechanics gear. Walk in building and walk out with engine. Job done.

Then leave a note where the engine is saying:

"Will replace when my camshafts arrive
Das ist nich so good"!!!!

[octainejunkee]

last run of the day - excuse the camera angle..

http://youtu.be/p2PCqE1UtTg

[Curly]

He can't see the track, but he types really well.

Tony typing on his keyboard. :hahaha:

10643

I shouldn't but I can't help it.

Shane ya git!
:hahaha:

Tony great to see you back! Enjoy the car matey.

[Rick H]

I seem to recall Gorilla was the proud owner of the Simpson CSL...

Interesting quote on the Simpson website description of a CSL . . .

"We actually took an M3 CSL road car and stripped it entirely. These are readily available now for not much more money than a normal M3 coupe, and have expensive items such as the carbon roof and carbon airbox already in place."

:banghead:

[mattCSLnut]

Interesting quote on the Simpson website description of a CSL . . .

"We actually took an M3 CSL road car and stripped it entirely. These are readily available now for not much more money than a normal M3 coupe, and have expensive items such as the carbon roof and carbon airbox already in place."

:banghead:

I think a bit of an update may be required :whistle:

[Rick H]

I think a bit of an update may be required :whistle:

Too true - seems odd to read it these days . . .

[mattCSLnut]

Too true - seems odd to read it these days . . .
:smt045 I hope one of their regular CSL customers will point this out soon ;)

[Loaded]

Nice video and driving.

[octainejunkee]

Nice video and driving.


Cheers,
Just put Cesil up for sale on autotrader as it wont be used until Spring and it seems silly to have it collecting dust,
Watching this vid makes me want to keep tho:smt055

[AlexGTT]

Interesting quote on the Simpson website description of a CSL . . .

"We actually took an M3 CSL road car and stripped it entirely. These are readily available now for not much more money than a normal M3 coupe, and have expensive items such as the carbon roof and carbon airbox already in place."

:banghead:

This was 9-10 odd years ago when BMW couldn't give em' away. Hindsight and all that. Besides, there are loads of CSL based race cars about................because they made great base cars to start. Speak to Nathan about his. ;) It does make sense.

[s.mac]

Driving style on the video looks like the same driver of the nissan at Bedford, if anyone's seen the clip ;)

[shimmy]

Driving style on the video looks like the same driver of the nissan at Bedford, if anyone's seen the clip ;)

TonyR has a GTR as well........along with a recent truck full of other special cars.

[s.mac]

I don't think you've seen the video, it's a piss take, arm resting on the sill, kebab warming near the handbrake and traction helping out now and again.

I can feel a tumble weed moment ....

[shimmy]

I don't think you've seen the video, it's a piss take, arm resting on the sill, kebab warming near the handbrake and traction helping out now and again.

I can feel a tumble weed moment ....

:smt069:smt069

[northernjim]

Driving style on the video looks like the same driver of the nissan at Bedford, if anyone's seen the clip ;)




http://youtu.be/QHeKOEN_0sM



Looks alright to me :whistle:

[s.mac]

Feck me Jims lurkin :smt055

[TonyR]

TonyR has a GTR as well........along with a recent truck full of other special cars.

Your starting to annoy me

[shimmy]

Your starting to annoy me

but id like to say TOnyR isnt the guy in the GTR at Bedford :smokin:

Honestly.:smt055

[TonyR]

but id like to say TOnyR isnt the guy in the GTR at Bedford :smokin:

Honestly.:smt055

Whatever. I've got enough to cope with a good chance of not regaining my sight properly with it being incorrect able with surgery or optics and learning to compensate for that. Everyone's a critic and that's fine but you are coming across a lot more than that.

At the end of the day I get to drive great cars, as fast as I can and I'm having a good time doing it. Dig away.