Alcon CSL Cup Full Brake Kit

[titan]

OK peeps, here we have what I think is the ultimate E46 stopping kit.

Thorney Motorsport / Alcon "CSL Cup" Brake Kit.

Essentially Alcon's 6 piston monobloc caliper / 365mm semi floating discs, Goodridge hoses, billet brackets on the front and 4 piston monobloc, 343mm discs on the back, same hoses/brackets.

Needs 18" wheels, fitted just fine under Team Dynamics Pro Race 1.2's. I have a set of these also..

These are supplied with Carbotech XP10 on the front and XP8 on the rear. The front discs and pads are near as dammit brand new, having seen only a few road miles and a wet trackday.

This little lot was around £4.5k - Lawsy's kit is around £3800 with pads I think.

I'm looking for £2800 and I expect these will be sold tonight. Collection only though.

I've had Alcons on a number of cars and they are just mindblowing. In terms of stopping power these greatly exceed the Porsche Ceramics I had on the GT2RS and with the size of the discs and good choice of pads, fade due to heat isn't an issue. In short - the last brakes you'd ever buy for your CSL.

Nothing thats used is ever "mint" however given the nature of heat and brake dust I think these are in as good condition as a secondhand set of brakes could be. Bolt them straight on, nothing more is needed.

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0410.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0411.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0412.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0413.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0414.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0415.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0416.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0417.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0418.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0419.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0420.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0421.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0422.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0423.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0424.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0425.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0426.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0427.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0428.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0429.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0430.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0431.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0432.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0433.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0434.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0435.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0436.JPG

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0437.JPG

[titan]

A quick pic of them under a wheel.....

http://ftp-1.cronosinternet.net/csl/alcon/IMG_0909.JPG

[cslsuperfan]

The best parts for sale thread ever!!:thumbs:

[Clubber]

Sent pm

[Gibbo]

How do these compare to APs and where you based?

[MCSL]

I must say... that is the sexiest set of brakes i've seen all day :)

[Das Chin]

fantastic brakes and an awesome price lee.

someone will get a massive bargain here. too cheap!

[titan]

How do these compare to APs and where you based?

Well, the "AP vs Alcon" or "Which Brake Kit" threads go on and on and on.

I can only tell you what I know myself and why I chose Alcon.

1. The first time I chose Alcon over AP (evo) was because there were so many reported problems with APs discs. Conversely rally teams I spoke to just laughed and said "er..Alcon!"

2. I had the alcon kit on my evo and they were just awesome. Any instructor who drove the car or anyone who made comparison couldn't believe the stopping power. The kit held up extremely well and I never had any issues.

3. For the CSL I guess Thorney could have made a branded kit with AP perhaps - or just standardised on AP, hell you could argue they might have shifted more kits at the lower AP price and made more money!! but they chose Alcon.

4. Ariel Atom - who's brakes are those? Oh why they are the same 4-pot monoblocs as fitted to the CSL rear...

So for me I've always viewed the AP kit as "fast road/track", what the in-crowd buys, but the alcon is what the pro's use. Flame me by all means but that's how I see it.

In terms of price difference, I think an AP kit is considerably cheaper - around £3k new whereas these are about £4.5k.

Technical differences ? well on the rears alcon supply new (348mm) discs, hubs as well as calipers, whereas AP just chuck a new caliper over the OEM discs. I guess this "should" mean that the rear brakes are uprated to match the fronts whereas perhaps the AP focusses more of the brake upgrade on the front. Dunno. As I said, these threads can go on and on and on.

The reality is, here we have a set of brakes which cannot be beaten on stopping power or longevity, have a track record (pun not intended) which shows zero issues with the kit, the discs don't crack and they are branded with CSL Cup which I think is a nice touch on a CSL.

[titan]

How do these compare to APs and where you based?

oh sorry, I'm in Rochford, Essex.

[shimmy]

Look great, glWS Titan.

[Rick H]

I've got Alcon CSL Cup brakes with RS29s. I got them from a register member, they were virtually on my doorstep at a price that I'd have been an idiot to ignore. They were put on by Darren Woods in Stockport with AP600 fluid.

I have no experience of the APs so I can't compare.

To live with, well they certainly stop the car but it took a day in Wales with Ben for me to fully "get" what they're about. What I'm not sure about is pedal travel and initial feel - initially I was concerned about shunting Ben but as the day progressed, I got used to them and more confident.

Pedal travel is longer than I'd like, and after some discussion with someone on here who clearly knows his stuff - a possible solution was to put on 2lb pre-load valves to retain some brake pressure after the pedal is released.

After some thought, I've decided to leave them as they are, not use valves and just get used to them. The more I drive, the more familiar with them I'm getting and I'm now more able to judge feel and the grab point.

They have a bit of clatter which, oddly perhaps, I quite like.

The general view appears to be that APs are better for track as they have shorter pedal travel and grab sooner (I'm sure AP guys, or anyone that has used both systems will correct and elaborate on that) and the CSL Cups are easier to live with day to day for people like myself who are not out and out track drivers.

I don't see why they should be more expensive than the APs.

[titan]

Initial bite is down to pad choice. I ran XP12 pads prior and these were quite nasty for road use. If road was your thing then XP8. (Having used pagids, mintex and others I really prefer and rate the carbotech stuff)

But I really don't know why road use is ever a critera for kits like these. If you need a floating 365mm disc and monobloc assembly for road, then you're either a nutter or have some mentalist roads near you.

Brake fade and heat issues is generally down to the size and type of discs. AP uses the original E46 disc (328mm), the Alcon is a 348 mm disc. Part of producing a good brake system to fit a standard car (ie retain existing brake cylinders/bias etc) is that the front/rear split has to be maintained. Probably another reason why alcon increase the rear disc size.

as I say on and on and on. But lets not derail this thread :)

[Rick H]

"But I really don't know why road use is ever a critera for kits like these. If you need a floating 365mm disc and monobloc assembly for road, then you're either a nutter or have some mentalist roads near you."

Well I think because most of the cars (on here anywayz) are used on the track as well as road in varying degrees. Ok, when pottering off to the garden centre for a few geraniums is the sole use of BMs finest, bbks border on the unnecessary and are a waste of money, but then so would a CSL be in the first place.

My reasoning was that the car will be used on a track, will be used on Welsh roads (and will be used to pick up geraniums) so I need all the help I can get :) plus I'd probably get back what they cost on resale so like yours, having them makes a lot of sense. :thumbs:

[shimmy]

Is my front disc really 328mm?

And I'm sure he callliper design and matrial make a huge difference to the heat dissipation.

[titan]

Rear. One question was why the Alcon set is more expensive. They provide additional discs whereas AP do not.

Fronts are same size although you make a good point about the material. AP had cracking issues in the evo world no such troubles with alcons. Was a while back could be bad batch or redesign who knows. I was only trying to explain why all my cars have had alcons with zero issues.

[nigt3]

I've Alcons and really like them, their discs are far superior than ap's!!

[Das Chin]

Rear. One question was why the Alcon set is more expensive. They provide additional discs whereas AP do not.


Lee, AP do provide the additional rear disc as well as the caliper as a full set....I have it on mine. see below:

rear:

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240/NLW73/M3%20CSL/WP_20131104_009_zps4e9a40a9.jpg (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/NLW73/media/M3%20CSL/WP_20131104_009_zps4e9a40a9.jpg.html)

Fronts:

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u240/NLW73/M3%20CSL/WP_20131104_007_zpsda664396.jpg (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/NLW73/media/M3%20CSL/WP_20131104_007_zpsda664396.jpg.html)

it about £4k all in (depends on where you buy it)

BUT I would agree that the AP kit is nowhere near as good quality as the ALCON kit that you have. and why the Alcon kit is much more $$.

also the rear AP grooved disc as part of the BBK is a one piece design (with the handbrake drum inside) where as the Alcon disc is a two piece design with the ali middle so it helps with better heat dissipation. plus the AP disc is the same size as the OEM but grooved, not drilled. the Alcon rear disc is a larger diameter.

all in all that Alcon kit is a superb piece of kit and worth every penny (and more!!)

NW

[titan]

Cheers mate for clearing that up. I can see now that some places online offer the rear kit with or without new discs.

I agree that the AP setup uses a 328mm rear disc (OE or AP), whereas the alcon is slightly bigger. And yes I have ali hubs.

I see you got your driveway from AP as well, all cracked in the first photo and then replaced under warranty in the second ? ;-) Only kidding. Been ages since I heard anything about cracked discs on AP. I think its a great kit and I'm not sure the alcon kit justifies the extra dollar but I wouldn't use anything else on a car now.

Amusingly, I sent back the rear E46 pads to Ian at Carbotech as "I'll never use them" - turns out they are the same pads as what the atom uses at the front. Sods law.

[Das Chin]

you knobby. good luck with sale.

[Neil M]

If you've go it, flaunt it - discreetly!

[DazBlackCSL]

The general view appears to be that APs are better for track as they have shorter pedal travel and grab sooner (I'm sure AP guys, or anyone that has used both systems will correct and elaborate on that) and the CSL Cups are easier to live with day to day for people like myself who are not out and out track drivers.

I don't see why they should be more expensive than the APs.

Pretty much my experience of both kits, having the AP's on the road car with RS29s and the Alcon (CSLCup) kit on my CSL Cup race car :whistle:

So having raced on the Alcons, and tracked hard the road car, I preferred the feel and feedback the AP's gave, more instant bite.

Both are great kits though, and as said the Alcons are pretty much on a par with the APs, great price and GLWS should be snapped up.

Personal preference on what you prefer between the two, but certainly one not better than the other ;)

[Rick H]

Pretty much my experience of both kits, having the AP's on the road car with RS29s and the Alcon (CSLCup) kit on my CSL Cup race car :whistle:

So having raced on the Alcons, and tracked hard the road car, I preferred the feel and feedback the AP's gave, more instant bite.

Both are great kits though, and as said the Alcons are pretty much on a par with the APs, great price and GLWS should be snapped up.

Personal preference on what you prefer between the two, but certainly one not better than the other ;)

I think thats the only way to know for sure, buy an AP set-up and give it a few months trial, make a decision and sell on the redundant system. They hold their dosh well enough so not too much risk.

[Gibbo]

Sold to me! :D

[Neil M]

Interesting to note:
"In case you are not already aware of this, AP Racing are a subsidiary of Brembo and most of their parts are interchangeable.
Like for like, they are as good as each other in terms of the build quality and performance in our opinion".
Quote taken from: Brake Caliper Specialists (http://www.brake-caliper-painting.com/index.html)

[trackm3]

Interesting to note:
"In case you are not already aware of this, AP Racing are a subsidiary of Brembo and most of their parts are interchangeable.
Like for like, they are as good as each other in terms of the build quality and performance in our opinion".
Quote taken from: Brake Caliper Specialists (http://www.brake-caliper-painting.com/index.html)

Who the hell wrote that, Brembo own AP Brakes for sure but I don't know any parts that are interchangeable ? maybe the Disk to bell bolts ;)

[shimmy]

Who the hell wrote that, Brembo own AP Brakes for sure but I don't know any parts that are interchangeable ? maybe the Disk to bell bolts ;)


nipples and dust caps :thumbs:

[trackm3]

nipples and dust caps :thumbs:

Oh er Mrs

[alexk]

stickers are !
Both stick in any of the calipers.

[shawn 968cs]

If you've go it, flaunt it - discreetly!
I like that subtle look:smokin:

[M@X]

Please, anybody can tell me Ferodo DS2500 reference for Alcon kits M3 E46 front 6 pods 365x32 mm and rear 4 pods 343x28 mm
?
Or which are the references for these kits to ask for pads?

[trackm3]

Please, anybody can tell me Ferodo DS2500 reference for Alcon kits M3 E46 front 6 pods 365x32 mm and rear 4 pods 343x28 mm
?
Or which are the references for these kits to ask for pads?

which kit have you got the CSL Cup kit ?

[M@X]

which kit have you got the CSL Cup kit ?

No, but I think it´s the same kit. .

These are the kits:

http://www.cslregister.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11607&page=9

[M3S]

Hi Titan. I'm sure these have gone already right? Just thought it was worth a shout as the thread seems to still be open.

Cheers.

[BenM3]

Have you still got the TD Pro Race 1.2?-

[titan]

Hi guys

The Alcon kit sold.

The TD Wheels - I went and had them completely acid dipped and repainted. There was nothing wrong with them apart from paint chips. No kerbs, no impacts, they just needed repainting. Had them done at the local place which does all the high end dealerships and must say, they look better than new.

Just need to get some photos up :)

[M3S]

Hi guys

The Alcon kit sold.

The TD Wheels - I went and had them completely acid dipped and repainted. There was nothing wrong with them apart from paint chips. No kerbs, no impacts, they just needed repainting. Had them done at the local place which does all the high end dealerships and must say, they look better than new.

Just need to get some photos up :)

Gutted. Typical. I would go and see something I can't have that makes everything else not good enough!

Thanks for letting me know anyway mate. Don't suppose you'd have any idea where I could get some at a similar (bloody good) price do you? I'm like a dog with a bone when I see something!

:)

[BenM3]

Hi guys

The Alcon kit sold.

The TD Wheels - I went and had them completely acid dipped and repainted. There was nothing wrong with them apart from paint chips. No kerbs, no impacts, they just needed repainting. Had them done at the local place which does all the high end dealerships and must say, they look better than new.

Just need to get some photos up :)

PM me some pics ;)

[Neil M]

If you want Alcons, and 'lawsy' hasn't any left, here they are: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-E46-M3-CSL-365mm-Alcon-Big-Brake-Kit-front-/121170065415?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1c364c7807:thumbs: (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-E46-M3-CSL-365mm-Alcon-Big-Brake-Kit-front-/121170065415?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1c364c7807)

[M3S]

If you want Alcons, and 'lawsy' hasn't any left, here they are: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-E46-M3-CSL-365mm-Alcon-Big-Brake-Kit-front-/121170065415?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1c364c7807:thumbs: (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-E46-M3-CSL-365mm-Alcon-Big-Brake-Kit-front-/121170065415?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1c364c7807)

Hey Neil, really appreciate you digging out the link, taa muchly but I've already seen those. And the superb kit Lawsy has available. It was just this particular kit that grabbed me. It's all about the extra cool points of them being for the CSL Cup. I know it's absolutely stupid, I'll admit it. I have a pretty acceptable Brembo set up and although they're left wanting a little if I'm being particularly full on, this would be way over specified for what I'd need really and it's a hell of a lot to pay for what basically amounts to a CSL Cup sticker, but there you have it, I'm a daft sod.

Still trying to decide what to do. I might even do something completely different and get some nice seats (I only have a lowly CS) who knows. It was just a proper childish saw them and had to have them thing.

Taa though.

[Rick H]

Hey Neil, really appreciate you digging out the link, taa muchly but I've already seen those. And the superb kit Lawsy has available. It was just this particular kit that grabbed me. It's all about the extra cool points of them being for the CSL Cup. I know it's absolutely stupid, I'll admit it. I have a pretty acceptable Brembo set up and although they're left wanting a little if I'm being particularly full on, this would be way over specified for what I'd need really and it's a hell of a lot to pay for what basically amounts to a CSL Cup sticker, but there you have it, I'm a daft sod.

Still trying to decide what to do. I might even do something completely different and get some nice seats (I only have a lowly CS) who knows. It was just a proper childish saw them and had to have them thing.

Taa though.

Some bloke took a pic of mine the other week - whole soddin car there to get a pic of but all it warranted was a pic of the Alcs . . .

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?p=26273491

Who's "Gibbo"?

[M3S]

Some bloke took a pic of mine the other week - whole soddin car there to get a pic of but all it warranted was a pic of the Alcs . . .

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?p=26273491

Who's "Gibbo"?

Ha. Exactly! That's how cool they are!

Seriously though, he didn't take a pic of the whole car? Was he daft.

Oh and if Gibbo has some, maybe he'll sell his...

[Gibbo]

Some bloke took a pic of mine the other week - whole soddin car there to get a pic of but all it warranted was a pic of the Alcs . . .

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?p=26273491

Who's "Gibbo"?


I am Gibbo! :p

Whats up?
My Alcons are staying on my car, they are bloody awesome! :D