Comp or leak down test?

[Chrisc]

Having a slight pinging noise on load at 2-3k. So want to get it checked asap. Not happy, as i heard it on the test drive, but thought nothing of it really.

Got a compression tester, but leak down tests seem to be better. So trying to see if i can borrow one! But wondered if usually HG signs will show in hopefully early stages. Unless it could be anything else? Plugs, coil packs all new.

[Monkey]

Having a slight pinging noise on load at 2-3k. So want to get it checked asap. Not happy, as i heard it on the test drive, but thought nothing of it really.

Got a compression tester, but leak down tests seem to be better. So trying to see if i can borrow one! But wondered if usually HG signs will show in hopefully early stages. Unless it could be anything else? Plugs, coil packs all new.

How many miles has your's done Chris? Regardless of that if you have any doubt get it checked asap.

Compression test will show something if the HG has gone, cylinder leakage is a definitive test though. Pull the fuel pump fuse with the car running, wait for it to stall. Remove all the plugs, then do compression test. Look at the values relative to one another, this will tell you if your HG is gone. If it is you can normally hear blowback from the spark plug hole on the cylinder next to the one you are testing. You can normally hear a slight misfire in the exhaust note on idle at the back of the car too.

As I say, cylinder leakage test will not only give you a definate answer, you will also be able to tell where the head gasket has failed. This is nearly always between cylinders though.

Hope that helps, good luck finding the issue.

[sjb]

Sorry to say it sounds like the HG. I too heard a pink with mine but still bought it thinking it could be plugs. I changed plugs, coils and even the lambda sensors luckily covered in the warranty but James (monkey) later confirmed my HG was spectacularly fucked! You have to be careful no head or block face damage happens too. Didn't you buy it from NJ? If it turns out to be the HG it might be covered in the warranty if he supplies one...I would have thought a specialist like him would be able to spot HG symptoms. James is spot on about the uneven lumpy idle and at low revs, mine sounded like an impreza until ML fixed it :clown:

[Chrisc]

Yeah it is pointing to the HG, and not sure where I stand with Nick Johnson, as will probably end up getting legal. He is a trader so minimum 3 month warranty. Been this road before, not with one of my cars, but went through it with a mate on his M3 vert. So well verse in what to do, as HG should be something he would have spotted, and probably did.

To be fair I should of thought more into it, but as the car has a much better sequence to warn people when they are cold, and only 70k on, I didn't think much of it :banghead:

Driving to work it does do it under load, but does not get any worse. But again I have not seen many to compare to.

Compression test I will get done today, and go from there. Don't want to have to fork out £1000 ish for a head gasket!

But not sure what else if anything it could be. Compression test will be first, and just hope the head is ok!

[Chrisc]

What other symptoms would you have with the bridge going between cyl 1-2 or 5-6 etc?

As I'm getting no power loss, and in6th at 2k and pedal fully down, there is no pinking. Just more when it's in 3rd and just applying load. So could it be injector or knock sensor? Nothing on the diagnostics though, like no fault codes at all for the engine. Will check again later, but dry good.

[sjb]

Sounds exactly like mine. At the beginning it was hard to get it to pink on demand when I took it back to the seller. It was only on very light throttle at a certain point in the rev range and load, it did start to get worse though to the point when I had a little race with an apparently lightly tuned '55 plate golf gti and was hard pushed to leave it. After the work driving home with full compression again it was like a different car, thing is if you've bought it already with the HG issue and subsequent lower compression (if my memory is right my cylinders should read 150psi and mine were around 70-90psi ! Luckily no head or block damage. Out of interest does yours idle 100% smoothly? Mine didn't before but now does and is noticeably smoother than before.
Give NJ a call and let him know what's up so he can get prepared to fix it for you ;)
But get it leak tested ASAP

[Chrisc]

It runs perfectly, but did idle a tiny tiny bit rough, was sorted after new plugs and coil packs though. The rev needle stays perfectly still, but I could hear the engine a tad. Could be me though :whistle:

Comp test and leak test are being done tomorrow, so go from there. Does give me the opportunity to do vanos bolts etc.

And sent Nick Johnson an email, so will wait and hear. I've only had it a few weeks, and was evident before. So ultimately he should of got it done before IMO. Not like he does not make enough out of them is it!

[shane@mbtech]

Give nick chance to respond first though before you publicly hang him.

He gets some stick from people but I've yet to hear an bad after sales stories about him fobbing customers off.

[Chrisc]

It's more what Nick said right at the end, that he does not offer a warranty, and advices to get a BMW warranty instead. :whistle:

It's not a major setback, as shit happens. And can replace head bolts with ARP bolts, plus do the cam bolts just in case.

[Chrisc]

Just a bit of an update, as 99% sure what the problem is. But heard from Nick Johnson, and he has said he will pay for it, or have it transported up to him and have it done up there.

To say I'm amazed is an understatement to be fair. Pretty much every garage I've dealt with has been a nightmare, well when a problem arises , and this seems to be a professional approach! So watch this space, but I will pay for cam bolts and ARP head bolts though.

[sjb]

Well done :thumbs:

[AlexGTT]

Just a bit of an update, as 99% sure what the problem is. But heard from Nick Johnson, and he has said he will pay for it, or have it transported up to him and have it done up there.

To say I'm amazed is an understatement to be fair. Pretty much every garage I've dealt with has been a nightmare, well when a problem arises , and this seems to be a professional approach! So watch this space, but I will pay for cam bolts and ARP head bolts though.

Good result but please make sure you reserve negative comments about traders/specialists until you have reason.

Hope you get the car back fit and healthy asap. :smt023

[Chrisc]

Good result but please make sure you reserve negative comments about traders/specialists until you have reason.

Hope you get the car back fit and healthy asap. :smt023

Did not mean the comment in a negative way towards Nick, just my experience of dealers is not that good. Just going through one on a mates 330 clubsport, and that dealer is a complete idiot.

So today did a compression test, and as thought the head gasket. Ranging from 115 in cyl 1 and 6, and lower in the other 4. So all chambers down. Needs doing asap, so very sedate driving and hopefully get it in next week. Just hope the heads ok.

I want to do the cam bolts (that come loose) but anyone know the updated part number?

[Chrisc]

Dropping her off at Bromspec in an hour. So fingers crossed :smt055

[AlexGTT]

Hope all sorted asap for you.:thumbs:

[cslsuperfan]

NJ is a good sort

dealt with him previously buying a csl back in 07

Genuine csl enthusiast.

[Yanto]

I have annual comp test now as part of servicing (insp or oil change) regardless of mileage.

Inexpensive and (reasonable) peace of mind yr to yr.

[Chrisc]

Since the readings were down in all cylinders, there is nothing else that is common is there? Racking my brain, but piston ring failure seems non existent in these engines. Plus on all six!

[Chrisc]

Well not good news. Took the car to Bromspec (James) and he is one of the best mechanics I have ever spoken to, and his prediction was correct.

Did a compression test and was getting 60psi ish, and puts a teaspoon of oil into the chamber, and up to 160-180 :banghead:. Some of you will know what that means, any that don't, well it's not good :bigcry:

[sjb]

Oh dear, so piston ring/bore wear as well as HG ? Or just bore issues? Not sounding good, hopefully you can get it sorted but not a great introduction to CSL ownership, but if you think it's fast now just imagine it at full compression ;)

[Chrisc]

Well as it's rings, it's really a new short block. As no idea how long it's been like that. But the labour involved would probably outweigh the cost of a new engine. New pistons, rings, crank etc etc will be a lot! And then it would need a new head gasket, and possibly head.

I'm not a mechanic, but have worked on engines and have a pretty good understanding.

NJ has been very good, so he is taking it back for testing. But ultimately only one solution. Which to be fair I'm gutted with, as spend a fair amount of money and time on it as well. So really not happy :bigcry:

[sjb]

Sorry to hear that, but it appears NJ is doing a good job of helping out.

[Chrisc]

Sorry to hear that, but it appears NJ is doing a good job of helping out.

He is to be fair. So more than happy with him, just wish I had a CSL to drive. :(

[CraigMillwardCroft]

Do you have BMW warranty with the car, or just what NJ is offering.

[Chrisc]

Do you have BMW warranty with the car, or just what NJ is offering.

No BMW warranty. Never thought I would need it to be fair.

[dave wilkinson]

Will just be head gasket. Putting oil down the bores will seal the gap where the gasket has blown. Get a second opinion! I'd put money on it, and I'm a tight c*nt so that should say a lot :thumbs:

[Chrisc]

Will just be head gasket. Putting oil down the bores will seal the gap where the gasket has blown. Get a second opinion! I'd put money on it, and I'm a tight c*nt so that should say a lot :thumbs:

Im on the second one now! The oil would push out the other side, as the tolerance is different with the piston rings.

Dont get me wrong, i was hoping so much it was the HG, but again with all 6 cylinders being down on compression, and the engine running very lean. I really dont know. I can only go by the techs word, and the gaskets are rare, let alone being all 5 points being broken. Saying that, so are rings.

And with cylinders 2/3/4/5 having two points gone, all them went right up as well.

If the head is removed, then thats just cost me half a rebuild, to which only i can pay for. The car owes me 2k in bits ive done, so call me reluctant to stick anymore into it when the everyone is telling me its rings. :(

[dave wilkinson]

Arr I assumed it was just one or two cylinders down on compression not all of them. If rings I'd guess and say its had a replacement engine at some point that's been to the moon and back. :banghead:

[Chrisc]

Arr I assumed it was just one or two cylinders down on compression not all of them. If rings I'd guess and say its had a replacement engine at some point that's been to the moon and back. :banghead:

:(

Plus when oil was added in two cranks went to 160!

Never heard of rings, but 100% it is.

James at Bromspec is in my eyes the best mechanic ive ever spoken to. He said it all along, and to be fair i could not believe it when he was right. But just been on the phone to him for another 45 mins going through it. Owe him so much, as hes been a legend through it.

What i dont want is a second hand block with 2000000000 miles on it! So it would have to be a new engine.

[CraigMillwardCroft]

:(

Plus when oil was added in two cranks went to 160!

Never heard of rings, but 100% it is.

James at Bromspec is in my eyes the best mechanic ive ever spoken to. He said it all along, and to be fair i could not believe it when he was right. But just been on the phone to him for another 45 mins going through it. Owe him so much, as hes been a legend through it.

What i dont want is a second hand block with 2000000000 miles on it! So it would have to be a new engine.

That could be a long wait, think billy is still waiting

[Chrisc]

That could be a long wait, think billy is still waiting

Yeah six months or so! He is getting the car tomorrow, so will go from there.

[Monkey]

Since the readings were down in all cylinders, there is nothing else that is common is there? Racking my brain, but piston ring failure seems non existent in these engines. Plus on all six!


I've seen several cars where the head gasket has failed between every cylinder, so yes all 6 cylinders would be down on comperssion. Thrasher Max's was the worst I've ever seen!

As I said before, whilst a compression test is a good indication of the health of the engine, a cylinder leakage test is definitive. This is beause it is possible to trace the cause of the loss of compression without stripping the engine, generally speaking.

With the cylinder at TDC, and the valves shut on a good engine you should see good cylinder leakage of under 5%. If you have high cylinder leakage its easy to trace - with compressed air applied to a cylinder in this state, and all of the spark plugs removed you will be able to hear/feel the air coming out of the spark plug hole on the adjoining cylinder. If you have leakage from the exhaust valves, you can hear it on the exhaust headers with a stethascope. If it's intake valves leaking you can manually open the throttle butterfly's and feel it coming out of the intake. And with your car, if it is indeed the piston rings you would take off the oil filler cap and feel/hear the leaking compressed air through there.

Whilst putting oil down the bore during a compression test is a good test in principle, as somebody else has said here the oil may be blocking the HG split.

I would not consider rendering an engine as failed without completing a cylinder leakage test.

Sounds like you're very unlucky if it is indeed the rings gone:(

[Chrisc]

I've seen several cars where the head gasket has failed between every cylinder, so yes all 6 cylinders would be down on comperssion. Thrasher Max's was the worst I've ever seen!

As I said before, whilst a compression test is a good indication of the health of the engine, a cylinder leakage test is definitive. This is beause it is possible to trace the cause of the loss of compression without stripping the engine, generally speaking.

With the cylinder at TDC, and the valves shut on a good engine you should see good cylinder leakage of under 5%. If you have high cylinder leakage its easy to trace - with compressed air applied to a cylinder in this state, and all of the spark plugs removed you will be able to hear/feel the air coming out of the spark plug hole on the adjoining cylinder. If you have leakage from the exhaust valves, you can hear it on the exhaust headers with a stethascope. If it's intake valves leaking you can manually open the throttle butterfly's and feel it coming out of the intake. And with your car, if it is indeed the piston rings you would take off the oil filler cap and feel/hear the leaking compressed air through there.

Whilst putting oil down the bore during a compression test is a good test in principle, as somebody else has said here the oil may be blocking the HG split.

I would not consider rendering an engine as failed without completing a cylinder leakage test.

Sounds like you're very unlucky if it is indeed the rings gone:(

Surely putting oil on the crown of the piston, and then getting 60psi on one crank and 160 on the second. Plus no seepage the other side (test cyl 1 and into cyl 2 for example) would mean its not bridging. And all cyls the same pretty much. Not sure why the oil would not seap out or blow through, especially at 160-180 psi.
Tell me if im wrong, as want to be 100%

[Chrisc]

Also just say it is rings, what could cause this? As its running lean, so is that a sign of rings or something like a blocked fuel filter?

They have so many safety features its hard to think of how it could of happened. Its obviously been like it for quite some time :banghead:

[Monkey]

Surely putting oil on the crown of the piston, and then getting 60psi on one crank and 160 on the second. Plus no seepage the other side (test cyl 1 and into cyl 2 for example) would mean its not bridging. And all cyls the same pretty much. Not sure why the oil would not seap out or blow through, especially at 160-180 psi.
Tell me if im wrong, as want to be 100%

I'm sure your guy knows what he's doing:) For me personally though I would only diagnose an engine issue of this sort with a cylinder leakage test. It takes an hour at most, and is conclusive. I would want to be able to tell the customer for sure where the leakage is, and prove it if they wanted to see it.

We all have our own ways, we're a weird old bunch us techs!

[Chrisc]

I'm sure your guy knows what he's doing:) For me personally though I would only diagnose an engine issue of this sort with a cylinder leakage test. It takes an hour at most, and is conclusive. I would want to be able to tell the customer for sure where the leakage is, and prove it if they wanted to see it.

We all have our own ways, we're a weird old bunch us techs!

I think he just knew, plus he said when putting a tiny bit of oil in it "clicked" or made some sort of noise, and was the same on each one. Think he said clicked, but a sound that was indicating rings as well. Iirc they are 3 rings in one, but cant remember what else he said :whistle:

[Monkey]

I think he just knew, plus he said when putting a tiny bit of oil in it "clicked" or made some sort of noise, and was the same on each one. Think he said clicked, but a sound that was indicating rings as well. Iirc they are 3 rings in one, but cant remember what else he said :whistle:

Yes you have 2 compression rings and the oil scraper ring. Either way the head will have to come off, you'll soon see if the HG is doomed! At least it's Nick's problem so to speak, and not yours. Keep us updated with the progress, be interested to see how this one pans out.

[Chrisc]

Yes you have 2 compression rings and the oil scraper ring. Either way the head will have to come off, you'll soon see if the HG is doomed! At least it's Nick's problem so to speak, and not yours. Keep us updated with the progress, be interested to see how this one pans out.

Thats one reason i did not want to go any further. If the head was taken off, i would be into a lot more labour time, plus as it does look like rings, then there is not many options. I have bought all the parts myself to get it done asap (head gasket, bolts, vanos seal, clips etc etc) so already £400 ish out of pocket, let alone anything else. Main priority is having a car! I would of paid and got the money back or whatever later, not worried. But now i dont know what else may be damaged or needing replacing etc, so taking a step back. Just have to wait unfortunately.

Still would like to know why they have failed, as never seen it before.

[Monkey]

Thats one reason i did not want to go any further. If the head was taken off, i would be into a lot more labour time, plus as it does look like rings, then there is not many options. I have bought all the parts myself to get it done asap (head gasket, bolts, vanos seal, clips etc etc) so already £400 ish out of pocket, let alone anything else. Main priority is having a car! I would of paid and got the money back or whatever later, not worried. But now i dont know what else may be damaged or needing replacing etc, so taking a step back. Just have to wait unfortunately.

Still would like to know why they have failed, as never seen it before.

Just for peace of mind I would get the cylinder leakage test done. It's worth it for the hours labour.

[Chrisc]

Just for peace of mind I would get the cylinder leakage test done. It's worth it for the hours labour.

They are doing another test tomorrow, so will see what they find. 3rd time lucky maybe :hahaha:

[Chrisc]

I dont think I am ever getting my car back, put back another 2-3 months, new courtesy car tomorrow + sweetener.

:smt087

At least when you do it will be like a new car! Well unless it turns up with a 320d lump in it :hahaha:

[shane@mbtech]

You cant diagnose rings and discount HG from a comp test alone.

A leakdown test is required.

And then a stripdown before any assumptions are made.

[Chrisc]

You cant diagnose rings and discount HG from a comp test alone.

A leakdown test is required.

And then a stripdown before any assumptions are made.

Well he has the car for his tech to look at, but so far everyone I have talked to have said rings with what has been done. Will see what his guy comes back with.

[AlexGTT]

I'm with Lawsy and Monkey on this. I'd seriously doubt rings. If the compression was as low as that past the rings you'd be getting serious amounts of burning oil smoke out the exhaust and serious loss of performance. On throttle the crankcase pressure would be dumping loads of oil vapour into the intake and on a trailing throttle it'll be pumping up past the rings.

Leak down test but make sure ALL oil put in cylinders is out before hand.

I'll lay good money on H/G gone between all cylinders.

[Chrisc]

Umm one thing i noticed. When i changed the air filter, the insides of the air box well the trumpet looking things were covered in oil residue. I thought nothing of it, as never seen inside a plenum before. Not sure if it was using oil, as not had it long enough.
Lower down you may remember by remap post, as below 3k was just non existent, again i thought it was a CSL thing with the different cam settings. But seems not after looking into it.

May have something to do with it?

And slight mayo on the oil filler cap, but not major at all, like a film. But though it could have been used for short journeys before i had got it.

[shimmy]

I have no idea what it is but I wish you all the best!

[Chrisc]

I have no idea what it is but I wish you all the best!

Cheers mate. To be fair i just want a CSL, and not the wifes 118d :(

[AlexGTT]

Umm one thing i noticed. When i changed the air filter, the insides of the air box well the trumpet looking things were covered in oil residue. I thought nothing of it, as never seen inside a plenum before. Not sure if it was using oil, as not had it long enough.
Lower down you may remember by remap post, as below 3k was just non existent, again i thought it was a CSL thing with the different cam settings. But seems not after looking into it.

May have something to do with it?

And slight mayo on the oil filler cap, but not major at all, like a film. But though it could have been used for short journeys before i had got it.

Chris, you won't get mayo to great extent because they don't leak into water system, just between cylinders.

Also, common to have quite a dirty oil vapour residue in the airbox so that's quite normal unless its swimming in oil.

[Chrisc]

Chris, you won't get mayo to great extent because they don't leak into water system, just between cylinders.

Also, common to have quite a dirty oil vapour residue in the airbox so that's quite normal unless its swimming in oil.

Ah ok. Didnt look like anything bad, but do remember it.

I can understand why people think its still the HG, but ultimately if the readings went from 60psi in 6 cranks, to 60psi in one crank and 160psi in two cranks. Just by adding a tiny bit of oil, im not sure how it could be HG.

I appreciate people saying that it could bridge the gap each side, but the people i have spoken to who have done a fair few HG changes on the S54 unit all say its rings, and just no way HG by that test. Yes leak down test will determine more, but from my understanding its more if you are having issues with adding oil and still none the wiser, then leak off and eliminate valve seals etc.

[Chrisc]

I dont think I am ever getting my car back, put back another 2-3 months, new courtesy car tomorrow + sweetener.

Yours is not in at Partridge BMW in Eastleigh is it? (Sorry dont know where you live) as they have had a CSL in there for months waiting as well! Did the HG but did not fix the issue, so new engine.

[Chrisc]

Well not good news, i have returned the CSL to Nick, and await a refund. It was rings unfortunately, so not the happiest really. Plus no car :bigcry:

Very strange a car with 72k would have all pistons rings fail, but the car in Partridge BMW seems to be the same. Well from what i was told. I know this is in no way common at all, but not good for me.

Not quite sure what else to get now. :(

[cslsuperfan]

Well not good news, i have returned the CSL to Nick, and await a refund. It was rings unfortunately, so not the happiest really. Plus no car :bigcry:

Very strange a car with 72k would have all pistons rings fail, but the car in Partridge BMW seems to be the same. Well from what i was told. I know this is in no way common at all, but not good for me.

Not quite sure what else to get now. :(


Sorry to hear Chris, are you looking for another?

there seems to be a few on PH....

[Chrisc]

Sorry to hear Chris, are you looking for another?

there seems to be a few on PH....

If i can find a decent one. Or maybe a 1M.

Away the week after next, well was supposed to be on a road trip with a few mates, but with no car seems a bit pointless now.

[cslsuperfan]

If i can find a decent one. Or maybe a 1M.

Away the week after next, well was supposed to be on a road trip with a few mates, but with no car seems a bit pointless now.

Heard lots of good noises about the 1M

prices seem to be holding well

A few former csl owner forum peeps have bought 1M's

[sjb]

Shame about the outcome but it could have been far worse I guess, lucky that you have been able to give the car back by the sounds of it?

[MCSL]

probably advertise the 1 m shortly

[CraigMillwardCroft]

Well not good news, i have returned the CSL to Nick, and await a refund. It was rings unfortunately, so not the happiest really. Plus no car :bigcry:

Very strange a car with 72k would have all pistons rings fail, but the car in Partridge BMW seems to be the same. Well from what i was told. I know this is in no way common at all, but not good for me.

Not quite sure what else to get now. :(

Give Derek a call he has a nice one possibly up for sale and the faster colour too :whistle:

[Chrisc]

Shame about the outcome but it could have been far worse I guess, lucky that you have been able to give the car back by the sounds of it?

Well not got the money yet :hahaha: and to be fair its been like it for ages, and im amazed bmw never picked it up at the last inspection! :(

probably advertise the 1 m shortly

.??? :D

Give Derek a call he has a nice one possibly up for sale and the faster colour too :whistle:

Nick has a rather nice SB CSL, but its not his as he could not do anything on it. Otherwise i would of paid the extra and had it. Only done 38k and looked in very good condition.

[MCSL]

is the engine in our CSL's any more susceptible to 'major' problems than the standard S54 engine (non-CSL)?

[Chrisc]

is the engine in our CSL's any more susceptible to 'major' problems than the standard S54 engine (non-CSL)?

Its the same engine, so no. Just people not letting them warm up properly, or straight on track to 8k will not be good for them.

They are normally a perfect engine. Bar a few vanos issues, not much goes wrong with them!

Mine is getting sorted, so im happy.

[MCSL]

Good to hear it's getting sorted Chris. Thought it was a CSL 'thing', phew. I have a mate who has a 2002 e46 M3 coupe SMG (he's owned it for 8-9 years). A tad over 100k miles on the clock. Back street (local garage in the countryside - do tractors too, ooh arr me laddie :) ) serviced for the last 5 or so years. Never had a prob. Never missed a beat. Still pulls and sounds strong.

[Chrisc]

Good to hear it's getting sorted Chris. Thought it was a CSL 'thing', phew. I have a mate who has a 2002 e46 M3 coupe SMG (he's owned it for 8-9 years). A tad over 100k miles on the clock. Back street (local garage in the countryside - do tractors too, ooh arr me laddie :) ) serviced for the last 5 or so years. Never had a prob. Never missed a beat. Still pulls and sounds strong.

My old E46 M3 vert had almost 100k on when i sold it, and was perfect. Thats in a 500kg track car now though, and still going strong in that!

[MCSL]

Mine is getting sorted, so im happy.

Out of interest mate, Is it having a new engine or a repair?