Poorly Cecil....

[phoenixcsl]

So, noticed another slight engine rattle from the front of my car the other week.

It's down at Munich Legends right now being fixed, the problem is my camshafts are worn and have play in them, which means new cam shafts, rockers and associated hardware and a head rebuild, really not good, but needs doing.

I think this all stems from the work I had done 2 years ago on the vanos gears etc, where I am convinced whoever did the work didn't do it properly, but that doesn't really matter now as the problem is there and needs fixing.

I know this is one of those topics where it can be hit and miss, but is it worth putting more aggressive high lift cam shafts in the car for that potential of a little bit of more power?

Been doing a fair few track days recently, though I don't think anyone would have caught the wear and tear, it's one of those things I guess.

What do you guys think? Shrick cams etc and associated bits to fit or stick with standard cams?

Lets discuss :)

[Das Chin]

Pooky has had the same problem as you and his car is at elms.

BMW have had issues sourcing cams and have looked at new supplier bearing in mind the design is probably 12-13 years old.

I thought the CSL cams were a higher lift on the in and exhaust.

would the shricks really give you any more? you would probably need head work and a re map to make them work and that would be lots of £££.

the CSL air intake and head was already reworked extensively so maybe just get it back to OEM and enjoy it?

[phoenixcsl]

Pooky has had the same problem as you and his car is at elms.

BMW have had issues sourcing cams and have looked at new supplier bearing in mind the design is probably 12-13 years old.

I thought the CSL cams were a higher lift on the in and exhaust.

would the shricks really give you any more? you would probably need head work and a re map to make them work and that would be lots of £££.

the CSL air intake and head was already reworked extensively so maybe just get it back to OEM and enjoy it?

I think the CSL cams are higher lift than normal M3 ones yes.

Yes, that is also correct on the supply on them, just spoken to my local BMW dealer, availability for CSL cams is now week 9/14 as had major supply problems.

Just been on the phone to Simpsons, they say to change them to Schrick 288/280 12.5mm lift (not 14mm lift as need new pistons with those) with DLC coated rockers as they need replacing anyway, anyone had experience of these?

[Pooky]

CSL exhaust cam is different.

Intake is the same as standard M3.

CSL Exhaust cams have been out of stock since May last year, now due March (although I'm still assuming they'll be late).

[phoenixcsl]

CSL Exhaust cams have been out of stock since May last year, now due March (although I'm still assuming they'll be late).

Yeah thats what my guy at Vines said, he said they are expecting them to be available week 9/14 but thats an approximate date.

Does anyone know what the cam lift/ duration is on the CSL?

[0-60Motorsports]

You might want to add the Vanos Parts from Beisan:

http://www.beisansystems.com/products

[Das Chin]

stolen from a US forum and it looks like the Shrick Camshafts have the same duration (in/ex) but have a bit more lift. hardly worth the extra ££?

Anyway...here is the breakdown:

1) OEM U.S. & Euro-spec M3 cams are 260/260 (intake/exhaust)

2) OEM CSL cams 288/280 duration (intake/exhaust)

3) OEM U.S. & Euro spec camshafts both have 12mm (.472) lift (intake/exhaust)

4) OEM CSL camshafts both have 11.6mm (.457) of lift (intake/exhaust)

5) OEM U.S. & Euro camshafts have a maximum VANOS enhanced spread angle of 60° on the intake side (70°-130°) and 45° on the exhaust side (83°-128°).

6) OEM CSL camshafts have a maximum VANOS enhanced spread angle of 60° on the intake side (72°-132°) and 45° on the exhaust side (85°-130°).

FYI: Regardless of which type intake and exhaust camshafts you have, they are constantly adjusted by the VANOS system depending on RPM and load. This is done via 4 factory installed high-pressure VANOS solenoids. All these adjustments are controlled by the factory DME. It can advance or retard camshaft timing as needed to keep the engine within normal (safe) operating parameters.

Note: The OEM CSL cast-iron camshafts are hollow and use a proprietary heat-treating process to increase strength and reduce weight. The CSL cams were designed to work with the CSL Carbon Fiber Air Box and the BMW proprietary Alpha-N CSL software only.

FYI: These cam sizes are also used as an aftermarket upgrade for our standard E46 M3's in N/A performance packages. (needs software to function properly

[phoenixcsl]

Nice one cheers mate, that's quite interesting as both Simpsons and ML reckon the CSL has 280/272 cams hence the upgrade might be beneficial.

Interestingly enough I can get the Schrick cams and followers for over £500 cheaper than BMW (with a 15% discount).

Are they worth an upgrade over the std parts? not sure, probably not if you are just doing it while everything else is fine.

But as the engine is already in bits, even if it gives a whacking 5 seat of your pants bhp it might be worth a try.

Tricky one though.

[Das Chin]

they could be wrong. I would try and speak to BMW technical and ask them maybe?

it seems odd that the shrick stuff does not have more lift as you would expect that from an upgrade.

it sounds like the CSL OEM cams are going to be a bit lighter than maybe the shrick ones as they are hollow and hardened but really by how much its probably grams so doubt you would notice once in that big six lump!!

Shrick stuff is good and I thought they would be loads more money than the OEM stuff.

my concern would be the OEM cams are matched to the carbon airbox flow and the alpha N map so fitting after market cams you could open up a big can of worms, need loads of dyno time, bang goes your cost saving and you don't really have that much more grunt.

higher lift cams would mean you lose lower-mid range torques/make drivability worse as lumpier.

[phoenixcsl]

they could be wrong. I would try and speak to BMW technical and ask them maybe?

it seems odd that the shrick stuff does not have more lift as you would expect that from an upgrade.

it sounds like the CSL OEM cams are going to be a bit lighter than maybe the shrick ones as they are hollow and hardened but really by how much its probably grams so doubt you would notice once in that big six lump!!

Shrick stuff is good and I thought they would be loads more money than the OEM stuff.

my concern would be the OEM cams are matched to the carbon airbox flow and the alpha N map so fitting after market cams you could open up a big can of worms, need loads of dyno time, bang goes your cost saving and you don't really have that much more grunt.

higher lift cams would mean you lose lower-mid range torques/make drivability worse as lumpier.

Shrick offer 2 types of cam shafts, one with 12.5mm of lift, the other with 14mm (high lift), so by going high lift, you're in the realms of changing pistons, spring retainers, valves etc which is what I don't want to do.

Suprisingly not the Schrick stuff is actually cheaper, which was a bit of a shock to me too.

I'll have another chat with Simpsons in a bit as they usually know their bacon.

[Das Chin]

here is another totally different reading on the Cams in the S54s:

E46 M3: 260/260
E46 M3 CSL: 264/264
Schrick Standard Lift: 280/272, 288/280, 304/296
Schrick High Lift: 288/280, 304/296

now that would make sense as 264 sounds about right and 280 would be way too high for an OEM spec in order to get that level of stable tick over and ability to have a smooth pull through the rev range

If you ware going to do it then go standard lift and 280/272. not too aggressive but a gain at least?

am sure you will lose sth elsewhere at low down but do you really care when its on song. make sure you get it on a dyno to get readings and check all is ok.

your call I guess as its always a trade off.

[phoenixcsl]

here is another totally different reading on the Cams in the S54s:

E46 M3: 260/260
E46 M3 CSL: 264/264
Schrick Standard Lift: 280/272, 288/280, 304/296
Schrick High Lift: 288/280, 304/296

now that would make sense as 264 sounds about right and 280 would be way too high for an OEM spec in order to get that level of stable tick over and ability to have a smooth pull through the rev range

If you ware going to do it then go standard lift and 280/272. not too aggressive but a gain at least?

am sure you will lose sth elsewhere at low down but do you really care when its on song. make sure you get it on a dyno to get readings and check all is ok.

your call I guess as its always a trade off.

Thats the problem with the internet, wherever you look it's a different answer haha.

I think if I was going to do it, 288/280 would be my preference on standard lift, I understand there will be a low end trade off, but once up in the rev band it should feel quicker....should do anyway!

Simpsons adamant the CSL is 280/272 as standard and that there would be a noticeable difference on the 288/280.

I'm not sure if many CSL folk have made a switch to Schrick cams.

Be nice to hear some real world experience :)

[Graham]

Not a CSL I'm afraid but I have Shrick 280/288's in my M3, perfectly normal to drive around with but gives a real noticeable changeover on cam at 4500 revs, it's almost like vtec. But I bought the car with them on and have never driven another M3 so it's hard to compare

[Pooky]

Checking the BMW parts system then it gives specific CSL part numbers for both inlet and exhaust cams with a warning of 'must not be used on standard M3'.

[Pooky]

It also lists the weight of all M3 and CSL cams at 3.2kg each

[J2LTB]

Could kent cams or piper cams not reprofile your own cams ? I bet the could:-D