Subframe Poll

[cslgirl]

I am curious and thought this may be an idea - to list whether your subframe is cracked - and if so, whether your car has been tracked/modified, the mileage etc. We may be able to see a pattern (or not)......:thumbs:

I will start - Our csl has been tracked once, totally standard except for a gruppe m, 35k and has no cracks (recently checked by my m-tech who has looked after our csl for 9 years). As long as it's not cracked then I am not having any prevention work done. If it does show any cracks in the future, then will go from there.

ETA - may be a good idea to put your csl number down too in case it was something do with with a run of them?

CSL Number 47

[petery]

76k miles, standard and no track work until 44k then only AP brakes added.
Now done 2 trips to the ring 2 days at Spa and half day at Donington.


Just checked and no cracks and no prevention work done

[Alx]

Hi,

Good idea! :)

Here is mine:

- 60'000 km
- LHD
- 100% stock
- No track
- No cracks
- No preventive work done

I'm not sure about the number on mine (246 ?), but it was produced on July, 10 2003.

Kind regards,
Alex

[LeinsCSL]

- 56k miles
- Some track time by previous owner
- Car standard
- No cracks found when preventative work completed summer 2013

[Pip1968]

Good idea CSLgirl. Sometimes women are brilliant and come up with fabulous ideas :clown: . It might put to bed some of the scaremongerers and of course help to maintain prices of non repaired ones if they are put up for sale :-D.

1. 36,500 miles
2. Track work
3. No cracks
4. No preventative work

Pip ;)

[Heisenburg]

Good idea. Here's mine;

CSL # 416

- 34k miles
- standard-ish
- tracked twice by previous owner
- no cracks (Oct '13)
- no preventive

Also, if this helps, my stock m3 cracked at 71k miles, totally standard, don't believe it had ever been tracked. Repaired Nov '12.

[benfj180]

47900 miles

Totally standard

Never tracked

No cracks, inspected in April/May 2013

:supz:

no. 133

[CraigMillwardCroft]

21,000 miles
Tracked regular
AP's
KW's
Cavity foam by Giraffe April 2013
No cracks

[cslgirl]

:smokin: :-D

Just edited the first post, but may be a good idea too to put your CSL number down in case it was a "batch" of them that had the problem?

Good idea CSLgirl. Sometimes women are brilliant and come up with fabulous ideas :clown: . It might put to bed some of the scaremongerers and of course help to maintain prices of non repaired ones if they are put up for sale :-D.

1. 36,500 miles
2. Track work
3. No cracks
4. No preventative work

Pip ;)

[Pip1968]

Looking at these posts it looks as though not having it repaired may be neither here nor there anyway: http://www.cslregister.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11428

I only read all those posts after the poll. Still it will be interesting to see how the poll goes - repair/ 'preventative' / none.

Pip

[benfj180]

47900 miles

Totally standard

Never tracked

No cracks, inspected in April/May 2013

:supz:

no. 133

build number added............this should be interesting!

Is there a way of showing the results via a chart/graph?

[CraigMillwardCroft]

Still cannot remember my number or work it out :banghead: But Neil M will know it

[Mike R]

55k
APs
H&R suspension
Supersprint full system from manifold back
Tracked fairly regularly throughout its life with Billy's Dad and then a couple of times with it's last owner and then two track days by me and a 'ring trip, which finally showed signs of cracks in Sept last year.

Subframe replaced under warranty by Elms in November 2013.

[monkeycsl]

35k turner limiter kit, supersprint backbox,braided lines and 2 trips to the ring on half day Snetterton one day Donnington and no cracks found yet and my m3 has done 77k with coilovers bbk back box braided lines solid rear trailing arm bushes and no cracks on her either.:beer:

[cslgirl]

When all the details are down, I will use my secretarial skillz and create some sort of chart thingy :thumbs:

QUOTE=benfj180;161033]build number added............this should be interesting!

Is there a way of showing the results via a chart/graph?[/QUOTE]

[DazBlackCSL]

Mine was on 40/50 k when the cracks appeared and was a while ago, might of been one of the first few to have the work done by BMW.

Total new floor done under warranty, car was standard when it went in :smokin:

Johnny should have the receipts or dates in the history of when it was done, can't remember of the top of my head.

2/3 Ring trips a year
Tracked regularly in 09 not so much after that.
KW's
AP's
SS Race

[73CSL]

CSL No 43

1. 63000 miles
2. All stock
3. repair to cracked rear subframe, 15/6/12 by BMW High Wycombe

[s.mac]

New boot floor replaced early 2013. 48,000 ish.

Tank slappers old car, plenty of ring laps
A few track days in my ownership, none since replacement.

Repaired with AP's, rtab limiter kit, AST suspension and titanium exhaust on :)

The crack was only a few mm but still one had appeared so it needed sorting.

[cslgirl]

Hmm so csl #43 and #44 cracked...

Daz, what number was yours?

[CraigMillwardCroft]

New boot floor replaced early 2013. 48,000 ish.

Tank slappers old car, plenty of ring laps
A few track days in my ownership, none since replacement.

Repaired with AP's, rtab limiter kit and AST suspension on :)

The crack was only a few mm but still one had appeared so it needed sorting.

Did you notice a difference with the rtab system on :thumbs:

[alexk]

Cslgirl I volunteer to put an xls in google docs this afternoon if thats ok with you.

[cslgirl]

lol! Ooo not great on the xls to be honest, can only manage to =sum stuff!

I think we need more responses from owners - and also car numbers so I can put the data all together :)

Cslgirl I volunteer to put an xls in google docs this afternoon if thats ok with you.

[s.mac]

Did you notice a difference with the rtab system on :thumbs:

Well the bushes haven't shredded since fitting :) it was better on track with them but the more you drive the car the better it feels anyway.

Lesa, if you are working on Neil's list of numbers I,m 359

[Trawler]

Sorry to go off track, but I wonder how many cars have the dreaded crack, but the person undertaking the inspection does not have the experience to know what to look for, or where to look.

I only say this as I was was shown a very small crack by Gareth and I would have sworn it was just an imperfection.

[Bounce]

:smokin: :-D

Just edited the first post, but may be a good idea too to put your CSL number down in case it was a "batch" of them that had the problem?There was a batch of them Lesa,all E46's,M3s and CSLs eventually.:hahaha:

[cslsuperfan]

Full subframe repair Elms July 13

totally stock:whistle:

never tracked:whistle: or ringed:whistle:

Faster colour

60K

[Bounce]

Subframe repair by Elms Jan 2013 at 76k miles
Stock,except for RTAB limiter kit and Zorst back box
Couple of light trackdays by me :-D
No trackdays by previous owners.
Don't know build number.

[DazBlackCSL]

There was a batch of them Lesa,all E46's,M3s and CSLs eventually.:hahaha:

Lol

Hmm so csl #43 and #44 cracked...

Daz, what number was yours?

Number 14 I think

[shimmy]

Mine is going in for a subframe check in two weeks.

[Bounce]

Mine is going in for a subframe check in two weeks.Be interesting to know the results

[sp2c]

Just collected my car from ML yesterday
Monkey confirmed rear floor completely renewed by BMW
Understand work carried early 2013, but no paperwork
mileage would have been approx. 40k
Neil M just confirmed my car is 161/422
Stock OEM car
Don't know about prev. owner usage, but must have seen a track at some time

[Steve B]

#360

Subframe replaced at 69,000 miles.

Presume it'd been tracked before my purchase as it has 2 towing eyes in boot.

Stock car when I bought it.



Steve

[mick csl]

Here is mine:

- 80'000 km
- LHD
- 100% stock,(AP brakes 1000km)
- No track
- No cracks
- Preventive work done

no.157

[0836whimper]

There was a batch of them Lesa,all E46's,M3s and CSLs eventually.:hahaha:

I might extend this batch to include all E46's :) (edited to add, that's what you said....)

[Csl spurs]

As a good friend off James the owner off Redish Motorsport I have seen so many cars that have been checked on numerous occasions by Bmw or other independent inspections and have been given the all clear no cracks! For James then to inspect them and find cracks!
I advise anybody now that still has there original floor that hasn't been replaced under the Bmw 10 year goodwill as pretty much most cars now have passed this to get the Redish subframe reinforcement done as every car will crack it's just a matter off when!
The service at Redish Motorsport really is second to none and a full photo journal is done with every vehicle for the owner to keep for the cars records.

[NZ_M3]

I advise anybody now that still has there original floor that hasn't been replaced under the Bmw 10 year goodwill as pretty much most cars now have passed this to get the Redish subframe reinforcement done as every car will crack it's just a matter off when!


With all due respect ... I actually disagree ... In my opinion the reinforcement plates do next to nothing and it is well documented that the reinforcement plates do not work - if anything it'll cause failures elsewhere.

First and foremost you must understand the reasons for the failures. A picture speaks a thousand words in my opinion:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8143/7362526302_f68821fc8f_b.jpg

That picture above to me illustrates why the reinforcements plates do little to nothing to help the cracks from appearing in the first place. Essentially the cracks are appearing due to the poor stablisation of the inner mounting points and the way the spot welds are located around the structural void.

With no tie in with the chassis rails or a boxing of the mounting sections that tie the top and bottom together ... any reinforcement plate is only placing a bandaid over what is already a weak structure.

Try this simple test if you are still in doubt. Go grab a can of coke, empty it, drill straight through the middle of the can and place a bolt through it. Now proceed to manipulate the bolt in a 90 degree fashion agains the surface of the can ... Without much effort you'll rip the bolt out of the can - this people is our subframe floor in a nutshell.

Now do the same as above, but this time, cut another coke can and layer another layer over the existing can and glue the skin over this can - do the same test again - once again you'll rip the bolt out in no time (albeit probably in an area outside this other skin) - this is what the reinforcement plates do - absolutely nothing:

Here are photos of a car with the reinforcement plate welded in and shows how the loads have been transferred into other parts of the chassis:

http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp128/Kdaddy69/Subframe%20Failure/hpftrunk1-1.jpg
http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp128/Kdaddy69/Subframe%20Failure/hpftrunk2-1.jpg
http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp128/Kdaddy69/Subframe%20Failure/hpftrunk3-1.jpg
http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp128/Kdaddy69/Subframe%20Failure/hpftrunk4-1.jpg
http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp128/Kdaddy69/Subframe%20Failure/hpftrunk5-1.jpg
http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp128/Kdaddy69/Subframe%20Failure/hpftrunk6-1.jpg


Now do the same test again ... but this time fill the coke can with any sort of silicon you can find - let it cure overnight ... now drill a hole through it and put the bolt through and try and rip the can. I am sure you'll find it much much harder to actually rip the aluminium can (if at all).

[devam]

So how do BMW do the fix and can you tell if it has been done by looking at the car?

[Pip1968]

When all the details are down, I will use my secretarial skillz and create some sort of chart thingy :thumbs:

QUOTE=benfj180;161033]build number added............this should be interesting!

Is there a way of showing the results via a chart/graph? [/quote]

CSLgirl, as long as it is better than your attempt to quote Benfj in an orderly manner :-D.

NZ_M3 are you sure your mate did not blow the floor due to his sub woofers and music paraphernalia (or I am looking at wires for a space shuttle here). Maybe he blew the cardboard floor following a bank raid which resulted in only coins.

Pip

[Mike R]

Tom,
Thanks for sharing, that explains it perfectly.

The BMW repair replaces the floor and if memory serves me correctly, they then reinforce this with the foam, as I am sure I remember seeing this listed on the invoice.

[0836whimper]

Yes, foam is listed.

Here's my eye-popping invoice :smt103

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh252/0836whimper/bill_zps88117a38.jpg

[s.mac]

So how do BMW do the fix and can you tell if it has been done by looking at the car?


Easy to tell, finished in shit undercoat

[shimmy]

Easy to tell, finished in shit undercoat


Mine was sprayed silver

[JBird]

Cracked at 30k / 9 yrs old.
Std, no mods.
Floor replaced and foam injection done.

[Pooky]

Easy to tell, finished in shit undercoat

Based on what evidence? My repair was excellent.

[J13NY S]

Had mine inspected & no signs of any cracks though it does concern me to read where some garages have misted them.

Mine is just about to turn 34K & had Intrax suspension fitted round about 21K.

Perhaps a stupid question but does the Intrax accelerate the process or does it transfer the stress elsewhere? Or make no difference?

[shimmy]

Had mine inspected & no signs of any cracks though it does concern me to read where some garages have misted them.

Mine is just about to turn 34K & had Intrax suspension fitted round about 21K.

Perhaps a stupid question but does the Intrax accelerate the process or does it transfer the stress elsewhere? Or make no difference?

Tbh nothing seems to make much difference. I think others have said its the diff stress onto the subframe mounting points that starts the cracking.

Intrax rear coilovers can cause other cracking issues on the turrets so make sure you get rear and maybe front turret strengthening bolted on (OeM simple and cheap plates)

[s.mac]

Quote:
Originally Posted by s.mac
Easy to tell, finished in shit undercoat
Based on what evidence? My repair was excellent.

Based on the shit dark grey finish ;)
The replacement is spot on, it is just not sprayed as it came out of the factory.
It was done at Elms so I presume the finish is the same on them all.

[J13NY S]

Tbh nothing seems to make much difference. I think others have said its the diff stress onto the subframe mounting points that starts the cracking.

Intrax rear coilovers can cause other cracking issues on the turrets so make sure you get rear and maybe front turret strengthening bolted on (OeM simple and cheap plates)

As I was closing the computer down last night I thought torque from the diff could be the main offender.

I was going to fit reinforcement plates a few years ago on the rear Shimmy but I asked Simpson’s to do it & they said they’re not required & I took their advice & didn’t bother?

[s.mac]

Mine was sprayed silver

Honestly ?? And did Elms sort?

I will be getting it painted, at some point...

[ac427]

When the goodwill work is done you have to be careful that the lazy b'stard body shop actually replace the whole boot floor.

Some of them cut the repair panel in half and only weld in the diff carrier.