View Full Version : The definitive suspension thread
Mike R
28-12-2013, 11:02 PM
I've spent several hours looking through all the old suspension related threads and thought it might be handy for all the information to be located in one place. As we all know, the key to a fast Cesil is being able to carry more corner speed than almost anything else (that hasn't got mega aero appendages). But all OE suspension tends to be built to a budget, hence why better specced aftermarket dampers can see good improvements.
At present, I have H&R coilovers that are not much younger than the car and so next year will be looking to replace them, but don't know with what (obviously they have done so well, it could even be with the latest version of them). I know from my research that I will be avoiding Intrax, as I have seen from friends and lots of people on here that as good as they are, the rebuild frequency has put me right off.
So I'd be interested in views of the suspension set ups you have - it would be great if you could list the manufacturer, the model version, spring rates (and whether they are proper coilovers on the rear as well), cost, suspension geometry, is the damping fixed or adjustable, what you use the car for and your views on the Pros and Cons of your set up (e.g. Great on the track, but a bit harsh for the road (or vice-versa)). It would be great to see as much detail as possible :).
Muchos grassy arse :).
shane@mbtech
29-12-2013, 12:41 AM
whats your budget is the definitive question to the definitive thread
dave wilkinson
29-12-2013, 02:39 AM
If your only playing at trackdays and not racing. Intrax are perfect for you (as your not that fast anyway) :blalalala: if you get serious at driving round in circles perhaps try some ohlins, but they'll cost you serious money. From experience I'd personally get COG to set your car up to your needs. Will gain you more than wasting a few grand :beer:
dave wilkinson
29-12-2013, 02:45 AM
Just to add, as Shane's said, pointless question without a budget, cos you could nearly spend as much as your Csl's worth if your serious!
Mike R
29-12-2013, 11:28 AM
I'm interested in what people have on their own cars and what they think of them, and that requires zero budget considerations :blalalala:. I have a custom built set of Ohlins on the Cossie, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the normal kit they do for the E46 is going to be any good. I'm after real world experience of YOUR actual suspension on a CSL :blalalala:, not what you might "think" would be good ;).
You only have to read through some of the past threads to see that even many of the major suspension manufacturers get the spring rates completely wrong (which is why I was hoping people would put what they have and comment on what they think of THEIR set up). This is because I don't want to turn what is a reasonable compromise into an out and out track car (I already have one of those :blalalala: ).
This would also help anyone else looking in the future, as they could see that for instance, the KW V3 set up with x and y spring rates was universally praised by all who had them on their car. So rather than giving me a hard time ;), why not get involved and post your set-up details ;).
shimmy
29-12-2013, 12:03 PM
HSD and D2.... Perfect for you mike.
Mike R
29-12-2013, 12:14 PM
HSD and D2.... Perfect for you mike.
I assume that is what you swapped your KWs for in the end :blalalala: ?
shimmy
29-12-2013, 12:30 PM
I assume that is what you swapped your KWs for in the end :blalalala: ?
Never used Kw but interestingly KW Clubsport are probably what you need. Full coilovers, work well, little maintenance if any.
I don't get on with Nitron and think they are still not 100% engineered for the car.
trackm3
29-12-2013, 12:31 PM
Mike, any good coilover will require rebuilding every 12months ! Have you ever put a set on a dyno after say just 1000 miles ? They are all over the place, so don't rule out Intrax !
QUOTE=Mike R;160204]I've spent several hours looking through all the old suspension related threads and thought it might be handy for all the information to be located in one place. As we all know, the key to a fast Cesil is being able to carry more corner speed than almost anything else (that hasn't got mega aero appendages). But all OE suspension tends to be built to a budget, hence why better specced aftermarket dampers can see good improvements.
At present, I have H&R coilovers that are not much younger than the car and so next year will be looking to replace them, but don't know with what (obviously they have done so well, it could even be with the latest version of them). I know from my research that I will be avoiding Intrax, as I have seen from friends and lots of people on here that as good as they are, the rebuild frequency has put me right off.
So I'd be interested in views of the suspension set ups you have - it would be great if you could list the manufacturer, the model version, spring rates (and whether they are proper coilovers on the rear as well), cost, suspension geometry, is the damping fixed or adjustable, what you use the car for and your views on the Pros and Cons of your set up (e.g. Great on the track, but a bit harsh for the road (or vice-versa)). It would be great to see as much detail as possible :).
Muchos grassy arse :).[/QUOTE]
The Gorilla
29-12-2013, 12:36 PM
Hi,
I think your going to wait a long time
for any serious replies in regard of
suspension etc.
Why ?
Those using ''out the box'' doing the odd Track day will
believe the car handles better on this
or that, yet the stock suspension set up correctly with
the addition of Camber plates and adjustable
ARB links, then the vast majoritymost of them would noit be able
to drive at 80/85% of its capabilities.
Move to a more progressive and say more serious suspension
set up where say many hours fetteling and switching
of settings and even spring rates has occured, with Caster,
and toe changes into the mis, combined with moving
items around for weight transfer ratios etc ARB changes
along with ARB settings, and very very few, if any,
are going to want to share that information for
the obvious reasons.
I have never been a subscriber that more expensive is
better, but what you do need is flexability ie] the ability
to be able to alter, point being is that if the std Sachs
Dampers were adjustable for low and high speed, and
the std Strut casing had the ablitly for Coilover sleeves
etc, then with a re-valve and spring change, add in some tenders
a set of Adjustable ARB drop links and camber mounts,
and for somebody that understands the basics then
unless your Hans Stuck, good useable gains can be made and
the orders for KW/Intrax/HR etc out the box with some
very limiting knobs on for E46's would decline.
Point being not many do.
Ring 'CSL Time' was a Press Car as such, so put on AP's
front and rear, Camber plates,well scrubbed Cups and
until you can get within circa 2 to 3 secs of that time, its not really
a suspension change holding back the Car is it ?
Regards,
The Gorilla.
Mike R
29-12-2013, 12:53 PM
Never used Kw but interestingly KW Clubsport are probably what you need. Full coilovers, work well, little maintenance if any.
I don't get on with Nitron and think they are still not 100% engineered for the car.
So why not tell us what you do have and what you think?
Mike R
29-12-2013, 12:59 PM
Hi,
I think your going to wait a long time
for any serious replies in regard of
suspension etc.
Why ?
Those using ''out the box'' doing the odd Track day will
believe the car handles better on this
or that, yet the stock suspension set up correctly with
the addition of Camber plates and adjustable
ARB links, then the vast majoritymost of them would noit be able
to drive at 80/85% of its capabilities.
Move to a more progressive and say more serious suspension
set up where say many hours fetteling and switching
of settings and even spring rates has occured, with Caster,
and toe changes into the mis, combined with moving
items around for weight transfer ratios etc ARB changes
along with ARB settings, and very very few, if any,
are going to want to share that information for
the obvious reasons.
I have never been a subscriber that more expensive is
better, but what you do need is flexability ie] the ability
to be able to alter, point being is that if the std Sachs
Dampers were adjustable for low and high speed, and
the std Strut casing had the ablitly for Coilover sleeves
etc, then with a re-valve and spring change, add in some tenders
a set of Adjustable ARB drop links and camber mounts,
and for somebody that understands the basics then
unless your Hans Stuck, good useable gains can be made and
the orders for KW/Intrax/HR etc out the box with some
very limiting knobs on for E46's would decline.
Point being not many do.
Ring 'CSL Time' was a Press Car as such, so put on AP's
front and rear, Camber plates,well scrubbed Cups and
until you can get within circa 2 to 3 secs of that time, its not really
a suspension change holding back the Car is it ?
Regards,
The Gorilla.
I completely agree with everything you have said, hence why I was hoping for peeps to post up the set-ups they have and what they think. Many have changed set-ups (either spring rates or even manufacturers) due to being unhappy with what they had - it is this real world experience I am seeking, which could help me and others make better decisions and avoid having to go through the same development process.
Mike R
29-12-2013, 01:13 PM
Mike, any good coilover will require rebuilding every 12months ! Have you ever put a set on a dyno after say just 1000 miles ? They are all over the place, so don't rule out Intrax.
I'm not building a race car, so I don't want something that is going to detract from the current well balanced compromise. That may be the case with Intrax, but that has not been my experience of quality suspension. There may be some drop off compared to new, but as stated, I'm not competing against other cars where every tenth counts, I just want something that will give a good ride / handling compromise at the 'ring and on the road and that isn't going to start knocking every few months.
The only signs of wear that the H&Rs are showing is some spring sag, now given how old they are, that is pretty good going. The damping may be way off what they were when new, but I have only experienced what they're like now (which feels compliant, but could do with a bit more roll control).
The Gorilla
29-12-2013, 02:33 PM
Hi,
The other Big aspect is personal driving
styles, one likes what another dislikes and so
on.
I personally like a Car with Oversteer dialled
in at the start so the deeper in you go,
the more neutral it gets, others would hate it.
There never has been nor will there ever
be a Suspension for both worlds, Road and
Track, and the more adjustability your Track /Race
suspension has the more you start killing
it everytime you drive on the road, and nice
compliant road suspension wanders and rolls
way to much on Race Track Asphalt, where suspension loads
and lateral G Forces want to rip out the std bushings
as quickly as possible.
No free lunch.
Regards,
The Gorilla.
DazBlackCSL
29-12-2013, 03:08 PM
I'm no expert and most are not .. Hence always better to leave anything like suspension to the people that know.
So my experience with mine over a 4/5 year period was trial and error, started with a KW V3 kit way way back in the early days, fortunately for me I'm friends with the KW guys from my racing in the CSL cup season in 09 so they helped me with my road car set up all through those years.
To be honest Mitch (ex KW now was a gent and knew his onions)
V3 kit got exchanged for a clubsport kit after about 2 years, thought I needed something harder and more 'race' track focused to get quicker ! Learnt that's not how you do go quicker the expensive way !!
But that's part if the fun and learning curve I guess. So from clubsports I went to a bespoke built race set up, stupid really as I was racing and used the car daily, but again my reasons for this was out of curiosity and also using my road car on track day before test day to get a feel for the circuit and also as the the race car was running almost the same set up it gave me some guidelines (little I agree but everything helped as a novice racer)
So what I learned in those years was, no matter how many different set up's, countless changes of springs and rates and tweaking and three versions of kits, I was the quickest and happiest on the original V3 kit.
For what I needed the car for, as in it was a daily driver and for 09 a heavy tracked car, 3 ring trips a year and lots of miles on the road.
The V3 was good enough but also simple enough to tweak and was a good compromise as a slightly better kit than OEM and also not as harsh for the road.
If your looking for speed on track, lots of time behind the wheel and on the track of your choice to learn the corners etc is how you really get quicker and build your confidence, not teaching you to suck eggs at all just my experience of various suspension changes on a CSL over many years.
If I have another CSL will do V3 and brakes and spacers, mainly for overall look and the lack of fade on track and slightly more progressive solid feel on track that the V3 and AP kits give you.
Tuition with a really experienced racer is an eye opener, Sean Edwards jumped in my CSL back in 09 and spent a few days with me and fook me what he could do with my then Standard CSL was impressive, needless to say no matter what I had on the car or what I spent, Sean would of run rings round me in a std car with no mods.
All down to what you want out of the car and what your trying to achieve I guess, I'm glad I tried it for myself rather than just taking advice as we are all different and what works for one may not for another.
Keep suspension simple unless your an expert or one handy each time you go out as the set up is key to getting the best out of it and like it's been said this differs between tracks and peoples driving style and also what rubber you have on each corner.
I tried all the spring rates and different set ups, toe in, out etc etc over those years on track and off and I'm sooo glad I'm not in that vortex anymore as you always seem to be chasing your tail.
Fast forward to my year in the GT3 997, the only thing that made me quicker on track and more confident with the car was tuition with a Cup Car racer and ex rallycross driver, again all about seat time in car and track, GT3 was totally std but felt like a totally different car by the time I sold it.
trackm3
29-12-2013, 04:20 PM
I'm not building a race car, so I don't want something that is going to detract from the current well balanced compromise. That may be the case with Intrax, but that has not been my experience of quality suspension. There may be some drop off compared to new, but as stated, I'm not competing against other cars where every tenth counts, I just want something that will give a good ride / handling compromise at the 'ring and on the road and that isn't going to start knocking every few months.
The only signs of wear that the H&Rs are showing is some spring sag, now given how old they are, that is pretty good going. The damping may be way off what they were when new, but I have only experienced what they're like now (which feels compliant, but could do with a bit more roll control).
Mike, you quoted this 'As we all know, the key to a fast Cesil is being able to carry more corner speed than almost anything else' This quote gives me the feeling you want something that performs well ? so don't rule out a proper fast track-race coilover just add a progressive spring and it will be a good road setup also ?
shimmy
29-12-2013, 06:36 PM
So why not tell us what you do have and what you think?
Fuck off....you ruled mine out in your first post :-D
You don't care.
CraigMillwardCroft
29-12-2013, 06:57 PM
Fuck off....you ruled mine out in your first post :-D
You don't care.
:hahaha::hahaha::hahaha:
Mike R
29-12-2013, 07:02 PM
I'm no expert and most are not .. Hence always better to leave anything like suspension to the people that know.
So my experience with mine over a 4/5 year period was trial and error, started with a KW V3 kit way way back in the early days, fortunately for me I'm friends with the KW guys from my racing in the CSL cup season in 09 so they helped me with my road car set up all through those years.
To be honest Mitch (ex KW now was a gent and knew his onions)
V3 kit got exchanged for a clubsport kit after about 2 years, thought I needed something harder and more 'race' track focused to get quicker ! Learnt that's not how you do go quicker the expensive way !!
But that's part if the fun and learning curve I guess. So from clubsports I went to a bespoke built race set up, stupid really as I was racing and used the car daily, but again my reasons for this was out of curiosity and also using my road car on track day before test day to get a feel for the circuit and also as the the race car was running almost the same set up it gave me some guidelines (little I agree but everything helped as a novice racer)
So what I learned in those years was, no matter how many different set up's, countless changes of springs and rates and tweaking and three versions of kits, I was the quickest and happiest on the original V3 kit.
For what I needed the car for, as in it was a daily driver and for 09 a heavy tracked car, 3 ring trips a year and lots of miles on the road.
The V3 was good enough but also simple enough to tweak and was a good compromise as a slightly better kit than OEM and also not as harsh for the road.
If your looking for speed on track, lots of time behind the wheel and on the track of your choice to learn the corners etc is how you really get quicker and build your confidence, not teaching you to suck eggs at all just my experience of various suspension changes on a CSL over many years.
If I have another CSL will do V3 and brakes and spacers, mainly for overall look and the lack of fade on track and slightly more progressive solid feel on track that the V3 and AP kits give you.
Tuition with a really experienced racer is an eye opener, Sean Edwards jumped in my CSL back in 09 and spent a few days with me and fook me what he could do with my then Standard CSL was impressive, needless to say no matter what I had on the car or what I spent, Sean would of run rings round me in a std car with no mods.
All down to what you want out of the car and what your trying to achieve I guess, I'm glad I tried it for myself rather than just taking advice as we are all different and what works for one may not for another.
Keep suspension simple unless your an expert or one handy each time you go out as the set up is key to getting the best out of it and like it's been said this differs between tracks and peoples driving style and also what rubber you have on each corner.
I tried all the spring rates and different set ups, toe in, out etc etc over those years on track and off and I'm sooo glad I'm not in that vortex anymore as you always seem to be chasing your tail.
Fast forward to my year in the GT3 997, the only thing that made me quicker on track and more confident with the car was tuition with a Cup Car racer and ex rallycross driver, again all about seat time in car and track, GT3 was totally std but felt like a totally different car by the time I sold it.
Hi Daz,
That is exactly the kind of real world experience I was seeking, many thanks for taking the time to write all that :).
glendog74
29-12-2013, 07:15 PM
Like Dazza above, I have tried a couple of setups by trial and error whilst learning the car more through track days and trips to the Nürburgring.
Initially using the standard car Sachs suspension on road and my early Ring driving, I found it perfect for my ability at that time.
However, as my speed on track increased I was finding the lack of adjustment with the OEM suspension limiting and thus fitted Turner adjustable top mounts which certainly helped reduce tyre wear resulting from track driving. To be fair this setup is probably all most would ever need for road/track use as The Primate mentions although I did find I was pushing the roll limits of the car on certain tracks such as Spa.
Ultimately I wanted a step up in suspension performance to retain better car body control so like Dazza opted for the KW Clubsport setup in 2009. I have used this setup since and have to say it is perfect for me with a little tweak between road and track setting being the only fiddling required. I believe the latest version has an easy single adjuster rather than the faff with Allen keys which I have with my kit.
The great thing about the KW Clubsport setup apart from the improvement over OEM is that they adopt the same strut/spring arrangement at the rear rather than the coil overs of other kits and the have the added bonus of lowering the car a little over OEM (which sits too high aesthetically IMHO).
I have been totally happy with my KWs and other CSLR members and many passengers have commented on how well the car rides when on track.
:supz::supz::supz:
Mike R
29-12-2013, 07:17 PM
Hi,
The other Big aspect is personal driving
styles, one likes what another dislikes and so
on.
I personally like a Car with Oversteer dialled
in at the start so the deeper in you go,
the more neutral it gets, others would hate it.
There never has been nor will there ever
be a Suspension for both worlds, Road and
Track, and the more adjustability your Track /Race
suspension has the more you start killing
it everytime you drive on the road, and nice
compliant road suspension wanders and rolls
way to much on Race Track Asphalt, where suspension loads
and lateral G Forces want to rip out the std bushings
as quickly as possible.
No free lunch.
Regards,
The Gorilla.
Danny,
That is most certainly true about roundy roundy tracks, where race-car style spring and damper rates would wipe the floor with a road biased set up. Fortunately, I'm not looking for that kind of suspension for the CSL, as although I do use it for the occasional UK track day, the Cossie is far more suited for that kind of track work.
For the CSL I'm trying to find a good suspension set up that will work at the 'ring and due to the bumps that this circuit has, a more road biased set-up actually works quite well, hence the research.
I also would ideally like to avoid multi-adjustable suspension for the reasons you and Daz mention, as you can just end up chasing your tail round and round. The lack of adjustment on the CSL has not been missed - its actually nice to only have tyre temps / pressures to worry about (and with the Cups, you just seem to drop them to 26psi and then forget about them until it is time to drive home LOL) :).
I'm not chasing times - just looking for something that will compliment the CSL's chassis :).
Mike R
29-12-2013, 07:20 PM
Fuck off....you ruled mine out in your first post :-D
You don't care.
Ah, I assume you got the Intrax in the end LOL.
Oout of curiosity, what is it you dislike about the Nitrons?
glendog74
29-12-2013, 07:31 PM
Like Dazza above, I have tried a couple of setups by trial and error whilst learning the car more through track days and trips to the Nürburgring.
Initially using the standard car Sachs suspension on road and my early Ring driving, I found it perfect for my ability at that time.
However, as my speed on track increased I was finding the lack of adjustment with the OEM suspension limiting and thus fitted Turner adjustable top mounts which certainly helped reduce tyre wear resulting from track driving. To be fair this setup is probably all most would ever need for road/track use as The Primate mentions although I did find I was pushing the roll limits of the car on certain tracks such as Spa.
Ultimately I wanted a step up in suspension performance to retain better car body control so like Dazza opted for the KW Clubsport setup in 2009. I have used this setup since and have to say it is perfect for me with a little tweak between road and track setting being the only fiddling required. I believe the latest version has an easy single adjuster rather than the faff with Allen keys which I have with my kit.
The great thing about the KW Clubsport setup apart from the improvement over OEM is that they adopt the same strut/spring arrangement at the rear rather than the coil overs of other kits and the have the added bonus of lowering the car a little over OEM (which sits too high aesthetically IMHO).
I have been totally happy with my KWs and other CSLR members and many passengers have commented on how well the car rides when on track.
:supz::supz::supz:
KW Clubsport settings on this thread:
http://www.cslregister.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4769
:-D
Mike R
29-12-2013, 08:45 PM
KW Clubsport settings on this thread:
http://www.cslregister.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4769
:-D
Many thanks :).
How do you find it on the road and do you have the KW standard spring rates or have you changed them?
DazBlackCSL
29-12-2013, 08:46 PM
Hi Daz,
That is exactly the kind of real world experience I was seeking, many thanks for taking the time to write all that :).
No Probs dude ;-)
Like you said it sounds like your looking for what ultimately I really needed and enjoyed, a better set up than OEM but not for chasing times, dial in and go, sort tyres / pressures etc in the mix .. And at the end of the day have an enjoyable spirited drive home without losing your teeth.
For me the V3 kit is exactly that mix, the new kits now have a really nice simple adjustment, like Rob says, rather than the fiddly set up I had ( I'm lazy too ) lol
Both rob and myself had the privilege of having the kits fitted at the HQ at KW Germany, so no better set up possible. Rob's Clubsport is perfect for him as he doesn't need it a daily and only does track days and ring trips, mine at the time was that plus daily so v3 is the better option.
Clubsport is a good kit just depends what you need it for.
And the added bonus of how they are built in house means they stand up to the test of time better than others, salt, dust, rain etc just do some research to see what I mean, the coating on them are more hard wearing and don't need as much ( re building ) if looked after as in serviced and checked by an expert.
alexk
29-12-2013, 09:17 PM
Mike, I concur with Danny.
What you want to do and what you like are very important factors.
I personally upgraded my suspension because I think I came close to the limits of the OEM suspension and it was becoming dangerous.
I run as you maybe know TTX 4-way race dampers.
Front spring rate is 130N/mm and rear 80N/mm.
Most people will say they are too hard.
I find them fantastic for the use that I am doing.
You need to have guts to drive fast in Autobahnen with many bumps. I found myself flying with 200+ km/h (hair getting whiter et cetera).
More info here -> http://www.cslregister.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10231
shimmy
29-12-2013, 09:22 PM
Ah, I assume you got the Intrax in the end LOL.
Oout of curiosity, what is it you dislike about the Nitrons?
Lack of development. They've been trying to get E46 to work for 4 years since LeonB had the kit and still it doesn't seem to be valves/sized correctly.
Had the 1k2 since 2008 I think. Had two rebuilds/services and also had them rebooked to Steel from Aluminium as the Alu corrodes/reascts and snaps eventually. This year will go to Black Mambo coating as the Stella also rust eventually which can seize the front dampers.
I had the Nitron 4 way and they were pants as adjustment was all over e shop once you started to move them. Never even got close to having them work as well as the 1k2.
I had Bealo's car for a while and I thought the KW Clubsport were good we'll built units although never drove them on track.
What I have noticed about the Intrax is that they have fantastic adjustment and work across the FULL range meaning I guess they have been sized and vases well as the single adjuster does 2 ways. They ride kerbs fantastically and on my set up seem to make the car feel very planted at all times. I think those that have been in my car mostly comment how stable the car feels (and how sweaty it smells)
I however do chase times and I think for the money the best track weapons are the Black Titanium Intrax 1k2. Service every two winters.
Mike R
29-12-2013, 09:43 PM
Mike, I concur with Danny.
What you want to do and what you like are very important factors.
I personally upgraded my suspension because I think I came close to the limits of the OEM suspension and it was becoming dangerous.
I run as you maybe know TTX 4-way race dampers.
Front spring rate is 130N/mm and rear 80N/mm.
Most people will say they are too hard.
I find them fantastic for the use that I am doing.
You need to have guts to drive fast in Autobahnen with many bumps. I found myself flying with 200+ km/h (hair getting whiter et cetera).
More info here -> http://www.cslregister.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10231
That sounds like a race set up, which I think would be way too hard for the 'ring - 130N/mm is over 740lb and 80N/mm is 456lb. As an idea, I run only 80N/mm on the front of my Escort and just 45 on the rear and it is similar weight to a CSL.
I think you will find your set up scary at the 'ring, but I bet it is amazing on a normal track :).
Mike R
29-12-2013, 09:45 PM
Lack of development. They've been trying to get E46 to work for 4 years since LeonB had the kit and still it doesn't seem to be valves/sized correctly.
Had the 1k2 since 2008 I think. Had two rebuilds/services and also had them rebooked to Steel from Aluminium as the Alu corrodes/reascts and snaps eventually. This year will go to Black Mambo coating as the Stella also rust eventually which can seize the front dampers.
I had the Nitron 4 way and they were pants as adjustment was all over e shop once you started to move them. Never even got close to having them work as well as the 1k2.
I had Bealo's car for a while and I thought the KW Clubsport were good we'll built units although never drove them on track.
What I have noticed about the Intrax is that they have fantastic adjustment and work across the FULL range meaning I guess they have been sized and vases well as the single adjuster does 2 ways. They ride kerbs fantastically and on my set up seem to make the car feel very planted at all times. I think those that have been in my car mostly comment how stable the car feels (and how sweaty it smells)
I however do chase times and I think for the money the best track weapons are the Black Titanium Intrax 1k2. Service every two winters.
Wasn't so hard was it :blalalala: ? That is great information thanks :).
What spring rates do you have?
shimmy
29-12-2013, 09:48 PM
Used to have 100/50 and now 120/60. So far not felt ANY difference :)
Nick Bell used to run 140/70 at the ring and he was quick.
Mike R
29-12-2013, 10:03 PM
Used to have 100/50 and now 120/60. So far not felt ANY difference :)
Nick Bell used to run 140/70 at the ring and he was quick.
Given those rates, I take it you're on a full coil-over arrangement on the rear?
How is it on the road?
It is interesting to see how with similar weights, the CSL can run much higher spring rates than the Escort and still retain a good ride control.
shimmy
29-12-2013, 10:11 PM
Given those rates, I take it you're on a full coil-over arrangement on the rear?
How is it on the road?
It is interesting to see how with similar weights, the CSL can run much higher spring rates than the Escort and still retain a good ride control.
It's firm on the road but no real issue.
Yes full coilover at rear.
northernjim
29-12-2013, 10:21 PM
That sounds like a race set up, which I think would be way too hard for the 'ring - 130N/mm is over 740lb and 80N/mm is 456lb. As an idea, I run only 80N/mm on the front of my Escort and just 45 on the rear and it is similar weight to a CSL.
I think you will find your set up scary at the 'ring, but I bet it is amazing on a normal track :).
I've driven a few cars with different set ups on the ring ( not any great amount of laps )
caged csl with intrax 4way
caged m3 with Nitron (X?)way on schirmer hard springs
my shed with intrax 1k2 on 100/50
all good tbh, and you do not notice the hard springs at all in a caged car, felt perfect for the job tbh, took 20 seconds off my best time in duncs car I think in 1 lap - so its a dream to drive
Mike R
29-12-2013, 10:26 PM
I've driven a few cars with different set ups on the ring ( not any great amount of laps )
caged csl with intrax 4way
caged m3 with Nitron (X?)way on schirmer hard springs
my shed with intrax 1k2 on 100/50
all good tbh, and you do not notice the hard springs at all in a caged car, felt perfect for the job tbh, took 20 seconds off my best time in duncs car I think in 1 lap - so its a dream to drive
So Dunc's was the CSL and I'm assuming Sam's was the M3?
Which did you prefer?
shimmy
29-12-2013, 10:26 PM
I've driven a few cars with different set ups on the ring ( not any great amount of laps )
caged csl with intrax 4way
caged m3 with Nitron (X?)way on schirmer hard springs
my shed with intrax 1k2 on 100/50
all good tbh, and you do not notice the hard springs at all in a caged car, felt perfect for the job tbh, took 20 seconds off my best time in duncs car I think in 1 lap - so its a dream to drive
Hw did you go in SAMs then ?
Pm me if not for public consumption.
O'Neill
29-12-2013, 10:43 PM
Interesting thread Mike.
I ran Nitron for a year 80nm front 45 rear, separate spring/damper on the rear.
They felt ok but I was noticing wear on the outside rear tyres due to excessive roll, camber was maxed out on the rear.
Asked Nitron if I could up spring rates on the dampers, they said yes, I went to 120/60 with a coil over on the rear and new rear dampers as the previous ones were cavitating ( they replaced them under the years warranty ).
That was 6k miles and 7TDs for the rear dampers.
Did two td on the higher rates and a few road miles, I didn't like at all, they felt better with softer rates to me.
Some intrax came up on here second hand with 120/60, they had done 7 events since a rebuild, I noticed a improvement over the Nitron on the same rates.
This might be that the damping for the Nitron was suited to the softer rates and didn't work with the higher ones, who knows. The person who bought them from me loves them. Suspension and set up is subjective.
I have done 5 td on the intrax and 5k miles, the last td at Spa they were not at their best but had done at least 12 td and 10k miles, not bad for a race damper.
The car is awaiting pickup from Simpson after full damper rebuild with black Titan piston rods and stainless bodies, which should make the service intervals longer.
northernjim
29-12-2013, 10:48 PM
Also... being a tart I have had passenger rides in...
Standard csl
csl + KW V3 - road springs and tooo soft
csl + KW Clubsport
csl + 120/60 intrax
csl + intrax 4 way
at the ring.... listed in order of goodness
standard is surprisingly good ( well maybe not surprising really) but for going faster I just think that you cannot beat the 'feel' of the more expensive units
It is interesting to see how with similar weights, the CSL can run much higher spring rates than the Escort and still retain a good ride control.
IF I was to be a cnut - I would say something about polishing a turd now???
northernjim
29-12-2013, 10:55 PM
Hw did you go in SAMs then ?
Pm me if not for public consumption.
Sam's is a really good car, I only did 1 lap that trip and that was in his manual car:119:
whereas in dunc's I'd been there for days and done about 40 laps - I said "I'll not go fast" to dunc.. but after 1 lap we were flying:whistle: but it was so easy, and my head was attuned to the ring, so was quicker than sam's lap
Sam's car is faster tho I would say - the seam welded and fully caged set up is the difference I'd say - felt like more of a go cart than duncs, which I prefer coming from the blue roller skate:whistle:
O'Neill
29-12-2013, 11:03 PM
I however do chase times and I think for the money the best track weapons are the Black Titanium Intrax 1k2. Service every two winters.
Hi
2014 is nearly here:supz:, are you ready :partyman::smt055
Mike R
29-12-2013, 11:05 PM
IF I was to be a cnut - I would say something about polishing a turd now???
You can say what you like - it won't change the fact that the Escort is faster than my CSL by quite some margin :blalalala: (but then I've spent ten years developing it around my driving style, so that is hardly surprising).
shimmy
29-12-2013, 11:11 PM
You can say what you like - it won't change the fact that the Escort is faster than my CSL by quite some margin :blalalala: (but then I've spent ten years developing it around my driving style, so that is hardly surprising).
Are you saying that your escort is faster than your CSL OR you are faster in your escort than your CSL?
shane@mbtech
29-12-2013, 11:19 PM
I've ran KW Clubsport for years with zero rebuild and they were still driving superb, I was only going to upgrade because I fitted the weld in cage and started running slicks. I was going to run the 2 way race.
Sadly i crashed the csl.
Standard clubsport spring rates, non coilover rear.
I ran the Nitron NTR sport 1 way as Shimmy and Barry did, I found them much the same. Shit. Ran 120-60 and they were poor, nearly killed me at oulton park. Dunc has it on video.:whistle:
I have just bought the red M3 from Martin, which is running the 1K2 intrax, not driven it properly yet so I cant comment on its worth, but will do v soon.
The KW clubsport IMO with standard clubsport spring rates is a fantastic kit, I ran a set for over 3 years and the bodies still looked like new. Never put them on the dyno to check or sent for rebuild as they were still doing the business. The guy I sold them to is still running them with no servicing on them either.
I do want to go for the KW 2 way race at some point in the future, but funds v low at present so not happening anytime soon.
Mike R
29-12-2013, 11:20 PM
Are you saying that your escort is faster than your CSL OR you are faster in your escort than your CSL?
Both :blalalala:.
AlexGTT
30-12-2013, 01:02 AM
Are you saying that your escort is faster than your CSL OR you are faster in your escort than your CSL?
I believe this is were you need laptimes Shim?
CraigMillwardCroft
30-12-2013, 10:53 AM
I run the KW setup supplied by Lawsy car has been a dream easy to adjust and reliable :thumbs:
Mike R
30-12-2013, 11:09 AM
I believe this is were you need laptimes Shim?
The Cossie is more than a match for 750bhp GTRs and 430 Scuderias - CSLs aren't even in the same ball park :hahaha:.
shimmy
30-12-2013, 11:21 AM
The Cossie is more than a match for 750bhp GTRs and 430 Scuderias - CSLs aren't even in the same ball park :hahaha:.
So how much faster is Cossie than CSL around Snett300 ?
Mike R
30-12-2013, 11:59 AM
So how much faster is Cossie than CSL around Snett300 ?
No idea - why don't you come along in the summer and we can find out ;).
glendog74
30-12-2013, 12:02 PM
Many thanks :).
How do you find it on the road and do you have the KW standard spring rates or have you changed them?
I find it pretty supple on the road to be fair; so long as I have dialled a tad more softness into them (wet settings) when I leave the track.
Bizarrely, compared to my old BMW 123d daily hack my CSL feels positively smooth on road compared to the jarring ride of the 1 Series on run flat tyres!
My KW Clubsport has standard spring rates AFAIK and I have had no issues nor felt the need to have them serviced yet in over 4 years and approx 30k miles of use including many track days and around 200 laps at the Ring. I happily lived with my KW Clubsport suspension when the car was still my daily drive for a year or so too.
KW gets a thumbs up from me; especially factoring in the reasonable cost outlay of this kit compared to others :thumbs:
shimmy
30-12-2013, 12:02 PM
No idea - why don't you come along in the summer and we can find out ;).
Okey dokey :thumbs:
alexk
30-12-2013, 12:10 PM
No idea - why don't you come along in the summer and we can find out ;).
Come on Mike. You can share it with us ;)
Mike R
30-12-2013, 12:14 PM
I find it pretty supple on the road to be fair; so long as I have dialled a tad more softness into them (wet settings) when I leave the track.
Bizarrely, compared to my old BMW 123d daily hack my CSL feels positively smooth on road compared to the jarring ride of the 1 Series on run flat tyres!
My KW Clubsport has standard spring rates AFAIK and I have had no issues nor felt the need to have them serviced yet in over 4 years and approx 30k miles of use including many track days and around 200 laps at the Ring. I happily lived with my KW Clubsport suspension when the car was still my daily drive for a year or so too.
KW gets a thumbs up from me; especially factoring in the reasonable cost outlay of this kit compared to others :thumbs:
I think I'm sold LOL :).
Mike R
30-12-2013, 12:20 PM
Come on Mike. You can share it with us ;)
I have no idea, as I don't time myself and even if you check out videos to get times, it's always with other cars on circuit holding you up.
If you really that bothered, you can time some of my You Tube vids, but like I said - they're with traffic, so not really representative. However, you will get an idea of the performance in relation to other cars on the circuit.
You can use this as a link to my channel - knock yourself out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7aweADw2ds&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I'd much rather go up against a well driven CSL, that way there can be no excuses on either counts ;).
billyboysm3
30-12-2013, 01:51 PM
I reckon I could do a 2.22 lap flat out
shimmy
30-12-2013, 01:53 PM
I have no idea, as I don't time myself and even if you check out videos to get times, it's always with other cars on circuit holding you up.
If you really that bothered, you can time some of my You Tube vids, but like I said - they're with traffic, so not really representative. However, you will get an idea of the performance in relation to other cars on the circuit.
You can use this as a link to my channel - knock yourself out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7aweADw2ds&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I'd much rather go up against a well driven CSL, that way there can be no excuses on either counts ;).
That's the 200 circuit, built for high BhP, I might get a bit closer on the 300 circuit and then I'll have to swerve on the straights :)
Bealo
30-12-2013, 02:07 PM
No idea - why don't you come along in the summer and we can find out ;).
I would like to see you in your cossie and Shim in his CSL have a play round Snett....
Think the CSL will just pip it though.
Will bring the Pork along for a play
adem.csl
30-12-2013, 04:26 PM
I listened to lawsy,Rob and daz as i looked for my kit and went with kw v3 then when i get to track i just stiffen it up couple clicks go play then soften it off takes second before i go home.
They are perfect road wise soo comfortable and you can adjust those levels
They are as good as my experience track wise(novice)someone who knows settings better could get more outta them but im over the moon with what i have.
A good geo goes a long way as do tyre choice.
Hope this helps.if not come to beds in feb if its dry and i show you how mine drives!!
northernjim
30-12-2013, 05:16 PM
I ran the Nitron NTR sport 1 way as Shimmy and Barry did, I found them much the same. Shit. Ran 120-60 and they were poor, nearly killed me at oulton park. Dunc has it on video.:whistle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrfwTaEgtEM&feature=c4-overview&list=UUZhfr2-QRywX3eUWonUwdeg
for all to see:whistle:
I reckon I could do a 2.22 lap flat out
in the poverty spec hairdressers car right??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pD2K8eovJE&list=UUZhfr2-QRywX3eUWonUwdeg
first time in an m3, first time in a csl first time using smg, ran out of feckkkking petrol or we'd have got quicker thanks to shim
Mike R
30-12-2013, 06:38 PM
That's the 200 circuit, built for high BhP, I might get a bit closer on the 300 circuit and then I'll have to swerve on the straights :)
That was just the last vid on my channel to enable you to find the rest. There are plenty of the 300 circuit:
Here is one being held up by a standard GTR and 997 GT3 RS (both get in the way on the corners where the Escort excels, as with 4 wheel drive as soon as you turn in, you can use full power to drive out of the corners faster than anything 2wd, as all 505lb ft can be utilised with no traction issues - and it weighs the same as a CSL). The only place that I suspect a well driven CSL being faster is round Corum and the corners at the end of the straights, where it is very difficult to judge the amount of retardation required due to the speed these are approached at (so I always end up scrubbing off too much - discretion being the better part of valour and all that LOL) Obviously following another car, this wouldn't be an issue, as the Escort has better brakes than a CSL and the 4 wheel drive makes it easier to avoid triggering the ABS when braking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4onGXhF_oU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Mike R
30-12-2013, 07:08 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrfwTaEgtEM&feature=c4-overview&list=UUZhfr2-QRywX3eUWonUwdeg
for all to see:whistle:
in the poverty spec hairdressers car right??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pD2K8eovJE&list=UUZhfr2-QRywX3eUWonUwdeg
first time in an m3, first time in a csl first time using smg, ran out of feckkkking petrol or we'd have got quicker thanks to shim
That looked more like cold Cups to me LOL.
shane@mbtech
30-12-2013, 10:16 PM
That looked more like cold Cups to me LOL.
It was like that all day mike. Snappy, twitchy, shocks were not valved correct and I know others have tried and let nitron tinker but still not great.
I struggled to get 2 mins at oulton, whereas in my old cls with club sport I hit 1.56 with consistent 1.57 lap after lap. On a048 tyres too which are not as good as the cups.
The 3 way nitron will undoubtably be better but shimmy didn't like them either.
My vote is KW or going by others opinion I hold in high regard the intrax :supz:
Mike R
31-12-2013, 12:06 AM
It was like that all day mike. Snappy, twitchy, shocks were not valved correct and I know others have tried and let nitron tinker but still not great.
I struggled to get 2 mins at oulton, whereas in my old cls with club sport I hit 1.56 with consistent 1.57 lap after lap. On a048 tyres too which are not as good as the cups.
The 3 way nitron will undoubtably be better but shimmy didn't like them either.
My vote is KW or going by others opinion I hold in high regard the intrax :supz:
I'm sure the Intrax would be fractionally better than the KWs, but I'd forsake a few seconds for the "fit and forget" of the KWs that everyone seems to report :).
shane@mbtech
31-12-2013, 12:30 AM
I'm sure the Intrax would be fractionally better than the KWs, but I'd forsake a few seconds for the "fit and forget" of the KWs that everyone seems to report :).
So would I
I'm ordering a couple of sets of KW as soon as they're back, business partner is going clubsport route on his m3. If mine was still on standard stuff I'd be ordering the KW too.
shane@mbtech
31-12-2013, 12:41 AM
That was just the last vid on my channel to enable you to find the rest. There are plenty of the 300 circuit:
Here is one being held up by a standard GTR and 997 GT3 RS (both get in the way on the corners where the Escort excels, as with 4 wheel drive as soon as you turn in, you can use full power to drive out of the corners faster than anything 2wd, as all 505lb ft can be utilised with no traction issues - and it weighs the same as a CSL). The only place that I suspect a well driven CSL being faster is round Corum and the corners at the end of the straights, where it is very difficult to judge the amount of retardation required due to the speed these are approached at (so I always end up scrubbing off too much - discretion being the better part of valour and all that LOL) Obviously following another car, this wouldn't be an issue, as the Escort has better brakes than a CSL and the 4 wheel drive makes it easier to avoid triggering the ABS when braking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4onGXhF_oU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Looks like you only accelerate in straight lines mike:smt017:blalalala::blalalala:
shimmy
31-12-2013, 12:44 AM
Looks like you only accelerate in straight lines mike:smt017:blalalala::blalalala:
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh
shimmy
31-12-2013, 01:20 AM
I have no idea, as I don't time myself and even if you check out videos to get times, it's always with other cars on circuit holding you up.
If you really that bothered, you can time some of my You Tube vids, but like I said - they're with traffic, so not really representative. However, you will get an idea of the performance in relation to other cars on the circuit.
You can use this as a link to my channel - knock yourself out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7aweADw2ds&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I'd much rather go up against a well driven CSL, that way there can be no excuses on either counts ;).
Cheers, will do. I've seen some high bhp GTr, Skyline, Cossie at Snett and tbh the main Area where time is gained is Esses-Bomb hole and Riches.
billyboysm3
02-01-2014, 03:17 PM
In the vidal sassoon mean machine with the rooooooffff down.
Anything under 2min 13 in a M3 is quick. Im sure some geezer off here put a 2.10 lap in but had the cameras around the wrong way. Cant remember his username though, think he has a dodgy surname
billyboysm3
02-01-2014, 03:18 PM
Jom coilovers are the tits!
Mike R
02-01-2014, 09:12 PM
Looks like you only accelerate in straight lines mike:smt017:blalalala::blalalala:
That's because there is usually something holding me up in the corners and you're only allowed to overtake on the straights :blalalala:
shimmy
02-01-2014, 09:58 PM
That's because there is usually something holding me up in the corners and you're only allowed to overtake on the straights :blalalala:
Don't worry, Lawsy usually ignores the corners and heads directly across the grass to the next straight :whistle:
cslsuperfan
02-01-2014, 09:59 PM
Great video Mike
GTR & GT3 tailing was fab...awesome power from your ford
Let us all know when you're going to Snett with the forum
shimmy
02-01-2014, 10:07 PM
I remember an R34 Skyline at Snett with a billion bhp that overtook me at the start of the old back straight, shot past me by 100m and I caught him by the time we got to the exit of the Esses (I nearly drove up Curly style inside him at the first left at the end of e back straight)
shane@mbtech
02-01-2014, 10:13 PM
Don't worry, Lawsy usually ignores the corners and heads directly across the grass to the next straight :whistle:
Is there grass up top at eau rouge?
AlexGTT
03-01-2014, 11:39 AM
In the vidal sassoon mean machine with the rooooooffff down.
Anything under 2min 13 in a M3 is quick. Im sure some geezer off here put a 2.10 lap in but had the cameras around the wrong way. Cant remember his username though, think he has a dodgy surname
Yeah, I think I know that knob. Fookin' show off. :wink:
Looking at that vid, I know who my money is on.
I hope you guys don't mind me giving my two penneth on this issue.
Although my car is a humdrum e46 m3 and not a knicker elastic snapping CSL I too have had a poor experience with the Nitron 1k2 kit. I never felt that the kit had been specifically developed for my car with a way too harsh a ride. it seemed as if the kit was all about mega stiff spring rates and poor damping. I didn't really pay too much attention of the actual rates unfortunately.
I also had a niggling thought that if I started to have issues with the dreaded rear subframe issue, a warranty claim would probably be thrown out due to the non original suspension and with the ride being so harsh I felt that it would only be doing damage to the underside of the car.
I didn't consider anything for the Nitron's replacement other than the AC Schnitzer Racing kit. This, in my opinion IS the best of both worlds with a nice compromise of a (still firm) ride with a nice damping action which feels lightyears better than the Nitrons on the road with a nice predictable attitude out on track.
Also worth considering was the fact that IF in the event of having a problem with the subframe mounts etc, any warranty claim would be looked upon maybe a bit more favourable with having what is essentially a factory approved modification!
As I write, the ACS kit has been on the car for around 18months and now I am looking into enhancing it still further with some Eibach ARB's, poly bushings and Eibach rear control arms.
My question (the reason i'm here actually), does anyone have any recommendations of nice, good value adjustable top mounts?
TMS and Ground Control seem to be the main options in the states but I would appreciate some feedback from someone over here :wink:
I hope my "two penneth" has been of some use
Ian.
Well, just a bit of a update.... Ive bought some TMS top mounts today direct from TMS along with a bush limiting kit. while I was brousing, I bought a AFE inlet boot which apparently adds a little more power and torque (every little helps).
Anyway, my good buddy neil at automac will be supplying some Eibach ARB's, raer arms and poly bushes including the subframe mount bushings.
TBH, i'm not looking forward to finding out what lies beneath the car regards any cracking etc but I did ask the boys at Bowker BMW to give that area a thorough looking at at its last MOT!
Also ordered some Rogue rear mounts from CA Auto. havnt dealt with roy and the boys in years........
Going slightly off topic :whistle: I've bought some rear Boxster S calipers off Ebay along with mounting brackets and lines from Porschecalipers.
I have 6pot BMW Performance front calipers with CSL discs with DS2500 pads.
Looking forward to throwing it all on and trying it out at snetterton in a few weeks ;)
Mike R
19-01-2014, 10:19 PM
Well, just a bit of a update.... Ive bought some TMS top mounts today direct from TMS along with a bush limiting kit. while I was brousing, I bought a AFE inlet boot which apparently adds a little more power and torque (every little helps).
Anyway, my good buddy neil at automac will be supplying some Eibach ARB's, raer arms and poly bushes including the subframe mount bushings.
TBH, i'm not looking forward to finding out what lies beneath the car regards any cracking etc but I did ask the boys at Bowker BMW to give that area a thorough looking at at its last MOT!
Also ordered some Rogue rear mounts from CA Auto. havnt dealt with roy and the boys in years........
Going slightly off topic :whistle: I've bought some rear Boxster S calipers off Ebay along with mounting brackets and lines from Porschecalipers.
I have 6pot BMW Performance front calipers with CSL discs with DS2500 pads.
Looking forward to throwing it all on and trying it out at snetterton in a few weeks ;)
I'd make sure that the ARBs are actually an upgrade, as most are for the M3, which upgrades them to the same size as the CSL already has LOL.
northernjim
19-01-2014, 10:27 PM
Although my car is a humdrum e46 m3 and not a knicker elastic snapping CSL
Ian.
Do you know shimmy?:119:
.
Anyway, my good buddy neil at automac will be supplying some Eibach ARB's, raer arms and poly bushes including the subframe mount bushings.
TBH, i'm not looking forward to finding out what lies beneath the car regards any cracking etc but I did ask the boys at Bowker BMW to give that area a thorough looking at at its last MOT!
Are the ARB's Hollow?
I'd make sure that the ARBs are actually an upgrade, as most are for the M3, which upgrades them to the same size as the CSL already has LOL.
:whistle:
that's a good point guys but remember, my car is just a standard m3 with a bit of CSL tinsel ;)
eibach f/r 29/25mm
m3 26/21.5mm
csl 30.8/22.5mm
I got those figures from a e46 fanatics thread
but still, the eibach for my car are a great improvement in dimensions.
ACS do a ARB kit but that is north of £600 and for me wouldn't be worth the near doubling in outlay but youre welcome to tell me i'm wrong :thumbs:
shimmy
20-04-2014, 10:37 PM
That was just the last vid on my channel to enable you to find the rest. There are plenty of the 300 circuit:
Here is one being held up by a standard GTR and 997 GT3 RS (both get in the way on the corners where the Escort excels, as with 4 wheel drive as soon as you turn in, you can use full power to drive out of the corners faster than anything 2wd, as all 505lb ft can be utilised with no traction issues - and it weighs the same as a CSL). The only place that I suspect a well driven CSL being faster is round Corum and the corners at the end of the straights, where it is very difficult to judge the amount of retardation required due to the speed these are approached at (so I always end up scrubbing off too much - discretion being the better part of valour and all that LOL) Obviously following another car, this wouldn't be an issue, as the Escort has better brakes than a CSL and the 4 wheel drive makes it easier to avoid triggering the ABS when braking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4onGXhF_oU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Just watching tis vid Mike and a few points, I don't think I've ever had ABS triggered in the dry in the CSL, and I think the CSL average speed around every corner a Snett would be faster than the Cossie, and I even think the average speed down the straights would be faster.(no slicks allowed), you may get a faster top speed but that's it.
I think the big trouble is that big BhP drivers tend to point and shoot, thinking that they need all the bhp working when often they don't. Just look at our mx5s running in the CsCc beating cars with twice the bhp just by using the cars good
Outs to the max.
Mike R
23-04-2014, 04:38 PM
Just watching tis vid Mike and a few points, I don't think I've ever had ABS triggered in the dry in the CSL, and I think the CSL average speed around every corner a Snett would be faster than the Cossie, and I even think the average speed down the straights would be faster.(no slicks allowed), you may get a faster top speed but that's it.
I think the big trouble is that big BhP drivers tend to point and shoot, thinking that they need all the bhp working when often they don't. Just look at our mx5s running in the CsCc beating cars with twice the bhp just by using the cars good
Outs to the max.
It's hard to judge corner speed from a camera without V-box attached (especially when the straight line speeds appear so high / combined with a smooth driving style ;)), but I know what you're saying as it is VERY difficult to judge just precisely how much corner speed to scrub off when you arrive at a corner 30mph faster than most things. Even with the 380mm 6-pot water-cooled WRC brakes, you end up just standing on them and (so far) always making the corner, but probably having scrubbed off 10-15mph more than you needed to (due to the not wanting to crash factor kicking in ;)). However, the good thing with the Cossie is that the second that you turn into the corner, you can just nail the throttle, so although entry speed might not be quite as quick as the CSL, exit speed is far superior due to the traction / acceleration advantage.
I appreciate that a lot of it is down to drivers (and having a "nice" car doesn't automatically bestow you with talent), but you can see from all the vids that the old girl is being held up in the corners as well by cars that are "supposed" to be capable of very high corner speed.
The only cars that I have ever had problem with is the high powered Radicals - I push them down the straights (as naturally they don't want to pull over ;)), and then when a fast corner comes, they don't even need to brake, so you go from being glued to their bumper to losing 7-8 car lengths (especially at the end of the pit-straight at Snetterton, which is a 100mph corner in a non-aero car, but 20-30mph faster in a winged car :hahaha: ).
I know you want to diss the Ford, but I think you will be pleasantly surprised at it's pace ;).
vBulletin® v3.8.1, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.