AP Racing OR Alcon ? [Archive]

StevenCSL

06-02-2009, 04:00 PM

Hi all,

I want a big brake kit on my CSL as I do trackdays often.

I was thinking of the AP racing kit, front and rear. A friend is riding this setup for several years and find it fantastic in all ways ! Also I read a lot of positive comments on the AP's.

But now, Thorney Motorsports told me they will soon have an even more better kit from Alcon. But of course, this kit will have to proof itselves first. Or can they be sure, this kit is better than the AP's ?

Some info:

AP - Two piece calliper - flexes more under use

TMS/Alcon - mono block calliper, less flex, much stronger

AP - Front disk semi floating, 355mm size

TMS/Alcon - Front disk full floating, 365mm size

AP - rear disk solid (same as OEM)

TMS/Alcon - rear disk full floating (separate ali bell, 100mm larger)

Price will be almost the same...

What do you think guys ? AP or Alcon ? What would be a good choice for me ? I am not a real racer, just doing trackdays like Nurburgring, Spa-Francorchamps, Brands Hatch, etc...

Let's hear :wink:

SMD

06-02-2009, 04:05 PM

I would say there is nothing in it!
Not many drivers would feel any flex in a AP caliper!

I would go Alcon to have somthing different! :-D

dave1

06-02-2009, 04:07 PM

i have both here either is fine but the alcon kit look's so much better made

s.mac

06-02-2009, 04:15 PM

I would go full floating all round :wink:

DazBlackCSL

06-02-2009, 05:42 PM

There is a thread on this exact subject somewhere , as im probably going Alcon , and currently have AP.

If your only doing the odd track day , no real difference really , not that you would notice, both are fantastic kits and the first thing to change / upgrade.

If they are both the same £££ to you , then I would deffo go Alcon , for all the reasons above , and if your getting them from Thorney , they will be a yellow caliper ..( dont get me started on that one :hahaha: ) and looks awesome on both SG & SB CSL's as well.

I have been more than happy with my AP's , just prob going on my race car , so need another set anyway , unless i decide Alcon on the race car ..

Just being a tart , and want new Yellow Alcon's on the CSL really !!! :whistle:

Andyk

06-02-2009, 06:21 PM

Yep, I would go Alcon if only because of the Yellow....I'm a tart to Daz.

DazBlackCSL

06-02-2009, 06:28 PM

Yep, I would go Alcon if only because of the Yellow....I'm a tart to Daz.

:smt056

Lol! Glad it's not just me then !

Bealo

06-02-2009, 08:12 PM

I have AP's front and rear and can't fault them at all. I would be amazed if the Alcons were significantly better..

Nords

06-02-2009, 09:26 PM

I know the AP discs get a bad press but the calipers are excellent. I'm sure the alcons will be the same and Thorney wouldn't sell them for trackday applications without being sure about them. Alcons discs might be better, although another alternative is the Performance Friction discs?

I have just swapped the std 4 piston split Suzuki (nissin) calipers for 4 piston brembo monoblocks and I can tell the difference there, but I doubt you could tell on a car. Don't judge them on being monoblocks v's split calipers.

SpineOnABap

06-02-2009, 09:32 PM

... and getting calipers painted costs next to nothing too.
Those people who bought 'Lo-Spec' calipers should know as they must have got them disguised! :thumbs:

glendog74

06-02-2009, 09:51 PM

I'm a tart to Daz.

:smt056

Lol! Glad it's not just me then !

Jeez - get a room! :gayfight:

glendog74

06-02-2009, 09:56 PM

I have recently fitted APs front and rear and find them awesome. Only done 1 track day at Castle Combe so far with them though. I will fit PF discs when the time comes as these are generally accepted as the best for the AP setup.

Alcons look pretty cool though but i'm sure there is little difference in performance? Both are well respected :smt023

kbird

06-02-2009, 10:41 PM

£ for £ the AP's with PF disc's are hard to beat, rears are nice to look to look at but unnecessary. Alcons good, but will be more expensive (no prices in any posts.....) Have you ever seen a comment complaining about AP's? I use them on my race car and CSL with on problems

glendog74

06-02-2009, 10:50 PM

Shake&Bake

06-02-2009, 11:01 PM

I currently have standard brakes. I want to get at least 1 trackday in to compare standard before I buy an upgrade. Very interesting thread.

dave1

06-02-2009, 11:11 PM

the standard brakes are useless on track

kbird

06-02-2009, 11:12 PM

Mark CSL

06-02-2009, 11:13 PM

I run hispec calipers and they came with performance friction discs
also they are free floating and 380mm

I have to say they are brill and yes i have had APs :thumbs:
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii14/markcsl/DSC04383.jpg
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii14/markcsl/DSC04387.jpg

Nords

06-02-2009, 11:49 PM

the standard brakes are useless on track

Yes, well not useless. If you're really hard on the brakes, some short circuits with plenty of fast to very slow areas (Donnington etc) will make them overheat and fade. However std brakes at places like the 'ring would be fine because it is lots of high speed (and hence cooling air) and not much really heavy braking. The better you are at the 'ring, the less braking you do anyway...

shimmy

06-02-2009, 11:54 PM

I currently have standard brakes. I want to get at least 1 trackday in to compare standard before I buy an upgrade. Very interesting thread.

DONT COOK EM!

glendog74

07-02-2009, 12:02 AM

I currently have standard brakes. I want to get at least 1 trackday in to compare standard before I buy an upgrade. Very interesting thread.

I was similar mate. My CSL had standard brakes with Pagid pads and braided lines when i got it. It fared 'ok' on the Ring but as tracks go the Ring isn't too intense as others can be. They worked ok but faded and grumbled after a few laps... Looking forward to trying the APs there :whistle:

dave1

07-02-2009, 12:16 AM

Yes, well not useless. If you're really hard on the brakes, some short circuits with plenty of fast to very slow areas (Donnington etc) will make them overheat and fade. However std brakes at places like the 'ring would be fine because it is lots of high speed (and hence cooling air) and not much really heavy braking. The better you are at the 'ring, the less braking you do anyway...[/quote]

you got to be kidding i take it you hav,nt been to the ring in a csl half a lap and there shaking and stinking overheat in no time at all the standard rotor has'nt got a decent vane design rob and i both said we want ap's next time got fed up with the steering wheel shaking your hands off it back on the road no prob's at all

Nords

07-02-2009, 01:54 AM

Not driven a CSL around there but a std e46 M3, like I said the better you are at the ring, the less you use your brakes!

I'm not that fast, but can do something like 8:40-50 BTG in traffic in my old Focus ST. It's brakes and my old M3 were fine...

dave1

07-02-2009, 11:00 AM

aw well must be me then

shimmy

07-02-2009, 11:09 AM

aw well must be me then :thumbs:

but on real track you do need upgrade to 356 and new callipers etc or they will cook!

StevenCSL

07-02-2009, 11:26 AM

Thanks for all comments guys !!

So, if I order an AP kit, I better ask for the performance friction discs instead of the AP discs ?

Or where can I order these performance friction discs ?

kbird

07-02-2009, 11:40 AM

Try Simpson Motorsport they may be able to do a custom kit +441594841299 ask for Anthony or Julian

SMD

07-02-2009, 11:53 AM

I have a custom kit for my car.

Brembo 8 pot front Calipers
Brembo 4 pot rears
378mm Discs
Customs Bells
Custom Brackets
Goodridge ines
Callipers painted porsche yellow... :smokin:
Pagid RS 14 pads

Nords

07-02-2009, 03:25 PM

Thanks for all comments guys !!

So, if I order an AP kit, I better ask for the performance friction discs instead of the AP discs ?

Or where can I order these performance friction discs ?

I think Thorney can do PF disks with AP calipers although if your BM discs are good, just keep on using them?

aw well must be me then :thumbs:

but on real track you do need upgrade to 356 and new callipers etc or they will cook!

I am the Forum's Fuch!

Hehehehe...

I have a custom kit for my car.

Brembo 8 pot front Calipers
Brembo 4 pot rears
378mm Discs
Customs Bells
Custom Brackets
Goodridge ines
Callipers painted porsche yellow... :smokin:
Pagid RS 14 pads

Brembos are lovely, any pictures SMD? Not cars but...

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj49/GSXRthou/Brembo_combo.jpg

These are going on next once I get the correct spacers...

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj49/GSXRthou/IMG_3807.jpg

dave1

07-02-2009, 03:58 PM

nice calipers those wavy disc's are a bit :gayfight:

few years old buy brembo discs look the nut's on 2 wheels

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1904/randompics044aa6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

bryce

07-02-2009, 06:58 PM

SMD

07-02-2009, 07:08 PM

Im gonna run my standard brakes for a while on track and see how I get on. They were brand new (discs and pads) 5k miles ago.

Id love a BBK, but its a helluva money. I may well change my mind once Ive done a few laps.

Yea as you say alot of money but you will soon be buying a set after 30mins on track! Even on the road the brakes are crap!
Defo the best mod for any M3. Good re sale aswell so not all bad! :beer:

How are you getting on with the KW Varient 3's? :smokin:

bryce

07-02-2009, 07:15 PM

I LOVE them :smt055

Only done 100miles or so since fitting them though, so Ive never had the chance to push it on - particularly with this weather. Was in town today though, and it looked Sooooooooo so so good sitting in the car park.

Knockhill in two weeks though, and an awesome drive to it, so I'll give a write up then. I'll give Mark a run too, see what he thinks.

dave1

07-02-2009, 07:32 PM

looking forwards to getting these on :thumbs:

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7945/07022009265vk1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Mark CSL

07-02-2009, 07:34 PM

dave1
It looks like a bananna :gayfight:

They will only look good on a black car i think :blalalala:

Go on DAZ you know you want them :drool:

SMD

07-02-2009, 07:48 PM

They look small dave! :gayfight: :thumbs:

glendog74

07-02-2009, 07:50 PM

Have you retrimmed your CSL interior Dave? I'm not so sure it works... :hahaha:

dave1

07-02-2009, 07:54 PM

i put transit seats in it as i wanted the armrest's

SpineOnABap

07-02-2009, 07:55 PM

They look small dave! :gayfight: :thumbs:

You got your big brakes on yet?

SMD

07-02-2009, 07:57 PM

They look small dave! :gayfight: :thumbs:

You got your big brakes on yet?

Not yet mate. Will be on very soon! Gareth has done a top job as always and they looking stunning! I just need to get the pads sorted and they can be fitted! :-D
Hows things any way mate?

1cosmicboy

07-02-2009, 09:23 PM

looking forwards to getting these on :thumbs:

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7945/07022009265vk1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
hi dave ,where from and how much ? i want :drool:

Stefplus

08-02-2009, 02:22 PM

Very nice to change the pads... :whistle:

I am very AP ( !) with my actual brake set up, but changed the original DS2500 pads for Yellow Pagids.

The discs are now worn up ( two TD seasons )

Has someone a reference for the matching PF discs on the front ?

Thx !

bryce

08-02-2009, 03:22 PM

: I am very AP ( !) with my actual brake set up

:hahaha:

Thorney

13-02-2009, 01:54 AM

Well so much for asking for that email to remain private :119:

Yes, we've spent some time developing these and I'll post full details as they become available. THere's nowt wrong with the AP's and we will continue to supply them, however there are a few ways they can be improved upon and AP were unwilling to change. As for performance we certainly found that the higher weight of an unstripped car on track days or the higher endurance required in race applications meant that the AP's only got 80% of the way to sorting either application. In other words, on track days the AP's still showed sign of fade or disk premature disk destruction and in racing they wrepast their best after half race distance meaning the lighter E36's could outbrake you.

They have been developed for the CSL Cup with road versions made available. We should have 10 sets in stock in 2 weeks.

StevenCSL

13-02-2009, 09:05 AM

Well so much for asking for that email to remain private :119:

Sorry John, didn't know this was a secret ? Just some facts between AP and Alcon, everybody can find these on the internet ...

I just wanted some feedback from actual users, so I can make the right decision for myself.

I think I go for the black AP's with PF discs and pagid pads, because Alcon is only available in yellow ? And we need discrete calipers in Belgium, because we are not allowed to change anything on our cars in order to pass MOT.

DazBlackCSL

13-02-2009, 10:29 AM

dave1
It looks like a bananna :gayfight:

They will only look good on a black car i think :blalalala:

Go on DAZ you know you want them :drool:

Its too late , I feel I may of moved over to the yellow side !!! :wink:

dave1

13-02-2009, 10:57 AM

has anyone weighed an ap caliper? standard caliper without pads weighs 5.4kg my alcon caliper is that light it wont register on the scales! will try again today and include the bracket and pads to see if i can get a reading :wink:

bryce

13-02-2009, 11:15 AM

Seriously? Get the missus' baking scales out :thumbs:

dave1

13-02-2009, 11:53 AM

your joking are'nt you? hello packet food! :whistle:

Thorney

13-02-2009, 11:24 PM

Alcon coming in black too, sorry, meant to reply to your email. We'll have them in 2 weeks.

dave1

14-02-2009, 11:15 AM

alcon caliper is 2 kilo,s lighter than standard caliper and the disc is half a kilo lighter than standard :drool:

add the weight of the bracket and a couple of bolts but it is still a big saving and that is un sprung weight which i seem to remember you can times by a factor of 5 as far as the effect on handling

i read a post on mtorque where someone said they lost some weight with a brake upgrade and several people said you probably added weight well i guess not :thumbs:

DazBlackCSL

14-02-2009, 11:46 AM

BBK are quite a lot lighter , ap / alcons about the same ish , but as you say much lighter than std , and much better ... :-D

Interested to see what that 1 series kit (bmw performance) ones are that people are having tweaked for a 3 series :whistle:

SMD

14-02-2009, 11:51 AM

Will see what my brake kit weighs before fitting. it is very big tho! :119:

SpineOnABap

14-02-2009, 12:34 PM

Will see what my brake kit weighs before fitting. it is very big tho! :119:

I very nearly stole that kit the other night when I was getting my discs renewed :-D

SMD

14-02-2009, 12:36 PM

Whatd do you think of the paint and stickers mate they have done a great job! :smokin:

SpineOnABap

14-02-2009, 12:52 PM

First class as always :smokin:

Ade

15-05-2009, 01:19 PM

I currently have standard brakes. I want to get at least 1 trackday in to compare standard before I buy an upgrade. Very interesting thread.

I was the same. I have/had standard brakes, and I decided to do a trackday to see how they performed before I made any decisions.

the standard brakes are useless on track

These were the standard brakes after a couple hours at Snetterton... (DSC off so no traction control braking unnecessarily)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v89/adrienong/CSL/P1060215.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v89/adrienong/CSL/P1060216.jpg

Melted down to their backing plates! :bigcry:

Brakes are being upgraded as I'm writing this... will post up pics soon and report back.

Ade

15-05-2009, 08:26 PM

Pulled the trigger.

Here are some lousy pics from the blackberry

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v89/adrienong/CSL/ALCONS_2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v89/adrienong/CSL/ALCONS_1.jpg

Just got back, and all I can say about the Alcons on road... F A N T A S T I C!

Immediate bite, proper strength all through the pedal without the kind of 'flex' that the OEM calipers gave. Feel is slightly diminished (as expected), but I suspect that they will prove easy to modulate when used hard on track.

I spent a fair bit of time with the technicians Tom and Chris, talking through various things, and also them explaining various aspects of the brakes/car to me. I realise this probably wasn't the norm, but my car was the last one out of the workshop on a Friday afternoon, and I appreciated their time and effort to explain things. Kudos to them as I watched them take their time with the installation, checking, and cleaning as they went along. My thanks to John for his time and advice - we initially said that APs were probably good enough for my use, but I just like having the assurance that the Alcons are more than I will ever need. Hats off to the guys at Thorney for great service :thumbs:

At first I wasn't too sure about the yellow calipers, but they are growing on me... :dontknow:

Here are some pics fitted...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v89/adrienong/CSL/CRW_7652.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v89/adrienong/CSL/CRW_7632.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v89/adrienong/CSL/CRW_7643.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v89/adrienong/CSL/CRW_7659.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v89/adrienong/CSL/CRW_7650.jpg

csl_mba

15-05-2009, 08:30 PM

they look the bobbies mate!!! :thumbs:

Jeff

15-05-2009, 10:37 PM

Ade

16-05-2009, 12:39 AM

Ade, I'd be interested to know what the feel is like? I drove the BHP car with alcons all round, admittedly after getting out of the GT3 and I put my head through the windscreen in the BHP car. I found it far too assisted with far too much bite for my liking. Did you find the pedal got harder after the upgrade or easier?

I can only compare it with standard brakes and standard pads and braided hoses. The OEM setup offers an amazing amount of feel because everything is flexing with 'give' at the caliper end of things. I think a harder pad would improve general braking no end, but the lack of cooling on the CSL brakes is a major weakness that easily results in cooked oem brakes.

The Alcons offer an absolutely rock solid pedal when you get on it unlike the OEM pedal which feels flexy and j u s t n o t p o w e r f u l... like driving a used Ford Focus.

I'm trying a softer pad (DS2500) instead of the RS29s to begin with - and I think it works well in this application (although my experience is only 1 night so far). The larger disc/pad area of the Alcons at 365mm dia allows you to run a slightly softer pad compound as the heat capacity is much higher, despite the lack of cooling. The softer pad gives more feel/modulation than you would with an endurance compound like the RS29. I suspect that unless I'm running slicks or at a circuit like Hockenheim or Bedford GT on a hot day, you may not need RS29s... but let's see how things go, and I'll keep a spare set of 29s in the boot for good measure as 29s have never let me down.

If you find too much bite, try a different pad compound.

Jeff

16-05-2009, 06:48 PM

I used to use DS2500's on my car in Aus and found them fine for all types of driving. having said that though I've personally never been more impressed than I was in the Porsche with RS29's so I would be hard pressed to not go for them again.

This is the kit I'm most likely to buy after having alcon discs on the Pork. Totally and utterly loved those discs. Not one issue with them.

One last thing, I'm thinking about how I could retrofit the Porsche type cup brake cooling ducts. I'm sure it wouldn't be THAT much work, and a brilliant method of cooling versus ducting etc.

Ade

16-05-2009, 07:52 PM

One last thing, I'm thinking about how I could retrofit the Porsche type cup brake cooling ducts. I'm sure it wouldn't be THAT much work, and a brilliant method of cooling versus ducting etc.

The ducts are easy to fit - just cable tie them to the lower wishbones. You can reuse them for the BMW as they are pretty generic. You really want proper ducted cooling hoses to let them be of major significance... the CSL has very poor cooling on the brakes which is the main problem.

dave1

16-05-2009, 08:39 PM

i agree in fact a normal m3 has brake cooling ducts in the bumper so a backward step there :banghead:

Thorney

20-05-2009, 09:03 AM

The lack of cooling is one of the reasons we went to this Alcon kit. We do a CSL bumper with brake duct holes in it but its a race only item really, looking to make a road version if there was enough interest.

Note double holes, Jamie even taped his up at Rockingham as he thought the brakes were getting too much air! (he was wrong, but there you go :))

http://gallery.cslcup.co.uk/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=103&g2_serialNumber=2